Pam’s Comments (group member since Dec 29, 2016)

Pam’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

Mmmm. I think it's just The Power or Allie's skein talking to her, like a suped up Jimminy Cricket.

Alderman alludes to this the way that D talks to the skein and later Margot 'hears' it, herself. The power has it's own logic and it doesn't stop, second guess, or consider consequences. Like an Id or Ego.

Stephanie wrote: Allie discovers her foster father only raped her because it was her foster mother's idea. The author is trying to show us that women with power can be just as evil as men. While I agree that her complicity is still horrible, are we really supposed to believe the raping foster father isn't the greater of two evils, just because it "wasn't his idea" to rape Allie? He👏🏻still👏🏻raped👏🏻her, regardless of who's idea it was! "

This attempt at depicting how men and women can he equally harmful was weak, hollow, and infuriating. I was already struggling with the one-dimensional, simplistic approach the book took towards gender role reversal that at time beat he reader over the head, especially considering it largely ignored the intersectional influences of class and race on sexism and discrimination.

Agree. And that's what I think Alderman was trying to explain with that whole mother-in-the-know thing. That HOW women used their power pre-day of girls, differed from men. Woman's power wasn't about overt moves like being strong or causing wars, it was all in subtle manipulations. Which... in a way, was Allie's downfall. She was inching around the President and look where that got her.

My review:
An ambitious and fun premise in which women mutate to have electric wielding abilities that shift that status quo. Alderman’s muddled tale follows the journey of a varied cast of characters who champion the revolution from various seats of democratic power: religious, political, gang-orientated, and the press, that collectively show various paths to a stereotypical matriarchy.

Alderman attempts to state that absolute power corrupts absolutely. But, she also tries to explain that power doesn’t follow a straight line; it branches out. A strong concept, but one that is difficult to convey in one setting how you get from here to there. Either you’re Asimov who goes into detail across a series of books or you’re Attwood who dances around the specific details of the big Ka-Boom.

The message continues to get muddled with some of her choice Attwoodian homages. The first epigraph worked as a subtle wink to the audience. The second and coinciding archaeological evidence acts like the audience was a deaf octogenarian who can’t quite hear what you said. "Subtlety, grandma. S-U-B-T-L-E-T-Y." It’s as if Alderman had so many notes and ideas at what she wanted to include but couldn’t quite figure out how to connect them to her novel before the deadline. Which is the same for her characters; they have a lot of things to stand for but don’t quite know how to do it which makes it feel unnatural when and where they do stand.

Oh goodness thank you.

The trans ban in US military will not be upheld. Boom.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...

Jobs:
"In 1890, three-quarters of American women in the workforce were single. Married women in the workforce were typically poor immigrants and the wives of unskilled laborers whose income alone could not sustain the family. Both married and single women with minimal skills took jobs in factories and as domestics (servants). Women with some level of education or training found work as nurses, teachers and salespeople in stores. Office jobs were available to women who conveyed proper manners and refinement and also possessed basic clerical skills."

Teaching
"God seems to have made woman peculiarly suited to guide and develop the infant mind, and it seems...very poor policy to pay a man 20 or 22 dollars a month, for teaching children the ABCs, when a female could do the work more successfully at one third of the price." -- Littleton School Committee, Littleton, Massachusetts, 1849 http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/timel...

"By the turn of the 20th century, nearly 75 percent of America's teachers were women. But women made up a far smaller percentage of administrators, and their power decreased with each higher level of authority. Their deportment had always been closely watched; increasingly their work in the schoolroom was not only scrutinized, but rigidly controlled. Teacher autonomy was on the decline, and teachers resented it. The American Federation of Teachers (AFT) was formed in 1897 as the Chicago Teachers Federation, with the explicit aim of improving teachers' salaries and pensions."

Nursing:
As for Europe, the nursing profession flourished when, in 1860, Nightingale opened the very first nursing school in London, which was known as the Florence Nightingale School for Nurses.
https://www.nursingschoolhub.com/hist...

For instance, Clarissa Harlowe Barton was a nurse who founded the American Red Cross soon after the Civil War, while Linda Richards and Agnes Elizabeth Jones helped to create a number of nursing schools throughout the U.S. and Japan during the mid to late 1800’s.

Religion played a part in nursing. A deaconess is basically a nurse in charge of providing health care for other women in the area. By the dawn of the 20th century, there were reportedly well over 5,000 deaconesses in all of Europe, primarily Germany. Within the nearly 1,500 hospitals located all throughout France, the nursing staff was comprised of well over 10,000 Catholic nuns in 1870. This number increased even moreso in the next 40 years to 15,000.

In the US most nurses spent their time tending to soldiers wounds within the Civil War, as well as joining the American Red Cross soon after the war. It wasn’t until the dawn of the 20th century that actual progress and modernization within the field of nursing began to take place [aka schools and universities]."

Domestic Servitude:
In UK Census: 1891: 1.38 million domestic servants (both male and female)
In UK Census: 1911: 1.27 millions domestic servants
The population is expanding, the middle class is expanding therefore the demand for service is expanding, but the supply of servants is shrinking. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-1954...

Domestic service in the U.S. accounted for more than two-thirds of all non-agricultural female wage earners in the second half of the nineteenth century (Glenn, 1986). Between 1870 and 1910, there was a decline in the proportion of women employed in domestic work relative to other areas (e.g. factories and education) of employment. Actually, the number of women employed in these area has doubled. Moreover, in the early stage of its development, both males and females were employed as domestics. For example, in 1870, 15 percent of domestic workers were male (Glenn, 1986). Nevertheless, by the mid 20th century, domestic work was almost exclusively done by women, specifically immigrants from Europe and native born blacks. Native born white women were turning to other endeavors, including factory work and teaching. Thus, the demand for domestic workers was filled by “recent immigrants and migrants from rural society and members of subordinate racial-ethnic groups” (Glenn, 1986). http://www.rcgd.isr.umich.edu/prba/pe...

Factory Workers
"One of the most famous strikes by women workers during the nineteenth century took place during the exceptionally cold July of 1888 at Byrant and May match factory in the East End of London. The strike began when 200 workers left work in protest when the factory owners sacked three workers who had spoken to a social reformer, Annie Besant, about their working conditions.

Besant published an article in her halfpenny weekly paper "The Link" on 23 June 1888, entitled "White Slavery in London". This article about the conditions at the Byrant and May factory highlighted fourteen-hour work days, poor pay of between 4-8 shillings a week, excessive fines and the severe health complications from working with white phosphorus." http://www.striking-women.org/module/...

Another awesome FREQ video.

Other items that are fun to note:
- The lack of female looking armor on Phasma. Aka, it was not scanty, boob shaped, or appealed to the male gaze like Leia's bikini armor or Red-Sonja like fantasy gear.
- The dislike of using the world's most beautiful woman Lupita Nyong'o as a CGI puppet creation. While it would have been amazing to see her on screen as Anita shares, Lupita was offered an opportunity to take on a role that wasn't centered around her looks.

This is a step, but as Anita says, there is much more we can do until it is equal. It's scary right now, as much as having Leia be fully dressed (but without bras because Lucas was still a perv) and being a royal pistol in the process, but soon this will also be a cultural footnote that we tell our grandchildren as a tale of long ago.

Ohh a delightful topic. So some context: WW1: 1914-1918.

Before this time:
Europe was dealing with the effects of the Napoleonic wars which brought around Nationalism and Imperialism. So the countries were colonizing and dealing with their territories in Africa and Asia.

In the States, we were coming to terms with the end of the Civil War, the Absolution of Slavery, the expansion of the West. And because of the land we were also getting swamped by immigrants: Irish, British, German, etc that brought with it a clash of new ideas and urban problems.

Steam and Industrialization changed how the world moved. Societies in general were moving away from farm based life-styles and towards urban environments and factory jobs. Where once women were regulated as building the family and feeding the men folk on farms we were seeing them and their children in factories.

South Africa was in a Civil War
India was under the rule of the British. Ghandi was moving back to India to begin his quest on ending British occupation
Russia was living under the last Tsar who was related to many of the European royals via Queen Victoria.
China is being gutted like a melon and used for western opium dens
Japan was quickly becoming industrialized.

So... a lot of change was happening. Massive Expansions, New Technology and Industries, and a Population Boom

Women's Right to Vote: a few countries.
New Zealand: 1893
Denmark/ Iceland: 1915* Women over 40
UK: 1918* Women over 30 who owned land
Germany, Canada, Russia, Poland: 1918
US: 1920* - White Women
Iceland: 1920 Women
UK: 1928* Women over 21
India: 1935
France / Japan: 1945
US: 1957: Native American women
US: 1965: Black Women
Saudi Arabia: 2011

Because of the social and technological stresses, more and more women were in the workforce. Because of the wars, more and more women were being trained as nurses like Susan B Anthony. Florence Nightengale. In addition a women of money was nothing if she didn't have a cause to champion. The social classes were changing.

So the biggest movements were a) Safer working conditions. B) end to child labor and the loudest cry was c) the right to vote.

As far as abortion: look up Maragret Sanger and her sister Ethen Byrne. With more people living in cities and more women trained in the health fields, you had more of a need and an answer for women's health issues.

Though it happened in a galaxy far far away, we have the privilege of seeing our historical progress being written

I have not listened to the video, but I will on my lunch break.

Original Series 70's: Broke Ground with having Leia and Mon Mothma be resistance leaders. Remember, in another cultural saga Star Trek Lt. Uhura was regulated to being the glorified secretary. Seeing a woman in power was unique. It is also interesting to note in the commentary that the X-wing pilots- Lucas filmed women as pilots but then had men dubb their lines because he or someone at the studio thought it was too unrealistic.

Episode 1-2: Moved the ideals of Leia into the next generation which showed Padme kicking butt both with her words as well as a weapon. But then yeah, she totally became just the love interest by the 3rd movie.

As for all the new women - Rey- Hera- Sabine- Asoka- Jyn etc, we are seeing the next take on female empowerment. Leia was the first trickle, but the dam has been burst wide open.

So you glad you found it again!

I'll check it out, thanks!

And another one. The women who spoke up have been named as the Time's Persons of the Year.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timein...

Fantastic!!!

On another facet of hiring women.

- Sexual Allegations.

In the aftermath of Weinstein and company, there also has been backlash in hiring women. The old - If they aren't there, this problem wouldn't exist. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/artic...

This thought of course, men unable to control themselves, therefore keep temptation at bay, has been around for a while. Back in 2013, for example, a Dentist fires his hygienist because he was worried he would start an affair with her. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/17/opi...

Right you are Keith.

https://womenintheworkplace.com/ (Thanks Cristina!) has some beautiful charts expanding upon the idea. Only 3% of CEO's today are women of color. 12% are men of color. While white women are sitting at 18%. Time and time again we see POC left behind. The site goes on with another review of the women across the color spectrum: Black, Latina, White, and Asian. I highly recommend everyone to give it a read.

In another study in 2013 it shows the Wage Gap for Black Men is at 75%, Hispanic Men its 67%, White Women at 78%, Black Women its 64%, and 54% Hispanic Women. (Again, US Numbers)

How does this break down in the UK? Institutional Racism wasn't as large or long lasting as it was in the US, but there also had been trying times in the 80's: Indian and Pakistan immigrants etc.

As far as sexual orientation... lesbians and bisexual women roughly earn more than their straight counterparts. But gay and bisexual men earn less.

"Transgender individuals also face significant wage disparities on the job. This is especially true for transgender women. One study found that the earnings of female transgender workers fell by nearly one-third following their gender transitions. Interestingly, that same study found that the earnings of male transgender workers slightly increased following their transition. As such, transgender men may actually experience a wage advantage rather than a wage penalty." https://www.americanprogress.org/issu...

To which I would argue, that the more masculine you act, the better your are received in the workforce. Unless you are a person of color.

Cristina wrote: "I want to share with you this study - it's McKinnsey https://womenintheworkplace.com/"

Great find, thanks Cristina!
And thanks Sherrie.

The Wage Gap shows that women are still not yet in high powered, high paying positions. OSS members have identified the following reasons why women are held back:
- Negotiation prowess
- Role as primary care giver / the family question
- Assertive vs Aggressive behavior
- Undervalued, underpaid labor force (The Double Shift)
- Self-Confidence / Willingness to stand up for ourselves

Any other thoughts?

I would like us to brainstorm about all items here and then talk about ways to address them.

Ross wrote: "Which all begs the question why are women in less senior roles. the title of my thread is the pay gap is real the reasons for this prejudice can be outlined in the discussion above."

Ok. So you do understand wage gap that its not the same thing as equal pay for equal work thing then. And you understand the the Wage Gap is a tool to analyse womens progress. Good. Glad thats cleared up.

As to the real reasons why women arent in higher positions; I've laid out three and Winston addded one.
- Negotiation prowess
- Role as primary care giver / the family question
- Assertive vs Aggressive behavior
- Undervalued, underpaid labor force

Let's open to the others as to why they think the "glass ceiling" exists. For those who arent aware the Glass Ceiling is a metaphor for
an unofficially acknowledged barrier to advancement in a profession, especially affecting women and members of minorities. The idea is this cap is glass we can still see the positions that lay beyond it but we cant see the glass cap that prevents us from getting there.

Powerful, Thank you for adding this. I know lately I have come in other threads to say that women are capable of sexual violence. And it didn't even dawn on me to include tales of queer or non-binary violence.

“To be exclusionary when it comes to thinking about and dealing with survivors of rape and sexual violence is to deny large swaths of people recognition for their suffering and trauma"

It's not pleasant to peel back a curtain and expose humanity at it's worse. There are some unspoken truths we do not want to admit. Some glimmer of hope that one group of us figured how to do it correctly that we just don't want to squash. But to allow this to stay hidden does negate victims suffering.

Thank you. I think.

Ross wrote: "no offense but you are missing the point Shell released these figures if there was a way to spin it they would have. Same job same service , same experience you get 22% less if you are a woman. r..."

None taken.

But I'm curious if you actually read what you think you read.

The article sub heading:
Shell said the main reasons for the gender pay gap were because fewer women were in senior leadership roles or higher paid technical positions. Also repeated in the third paragraph

Fourth paragraph:
Shell said that while it was confident that its staff received equal pay, there was “still some way to go” before closing the pay gap. I.e. Worker A-Female and Worker A-Male are making the same pay. But we don't have Women yet in the CEO / COO positions.

sixth paragraph:
Shell UK said it was making progress addressing gender pay gap. Between 2005 and 2017, the percentage of women employed by the firm in senior management roles in the UK has risen from 12 per cent to 26.8 per cent. More women working, means less of a gap. And look! It's more than 2x what they had 12 years ago. That's great! Not perfect, but we're seeing positive growth.

Ninth paragraph
According to the Office for National Statistics, the median gender pay gap is currently 9.1 per cent – the lowest since records began. Because once things have been measured, we can start tracking progress. And this is progress. The article goes on to explain that more women are in STEM fields as well as taking more graduate level programs.

Tenth paragraph:
Last week, the Bank of England said that its male staff were paid 24 per cent more than its female employees, also citing a lack of women in senior positions as the main reason for the divide

No offense, but did you read this article?

Because from what I'm reading it states the reason why the wage gap exists is because women are not in top positions. And if women are not in top positions then they are not earning the top position salaries which creates the gap.

Ok. Before we go any further we should define what it is we are talking about. Because the names seem lead to the debate.

- Wage Gap:
An average across the entire company's labor pool comparing wage earning across the company demographics
Average salary for all Men in Company X = $.
Average salary for all Women in Company X =$
and then we compare the two lines and the difference between them is the wage gap. The CEO's salary is added to this mix along with the janitor.

Equal Pay Laws
This is to say that if Worker A - Female and Worker A- Male each did the same Technician job with the same amount of schooling and started in the company at the same time that they would have the same pay. And since the 1970's since this has first been documented as well as to (States, again) the Lily Ledbetter Act, we can see that we do have a very good relation of equal pay.

BUT. And there is a BUT. Not that many things are exactly equal.

If Worker A-Male has
- been with the company longer,
- an advanced degree,
- working a second or third shift,
- works more overtime,

than he would be most likely earning more than Worker A-Female. Or vice versa, though. on average you see more men take on second or third shift AND they tend to take on more overtime. I'll address the why of this in a later paragraph below.

Ok, so back to the Wage Gap.
Think of the Wage Gap as a symptom, like a sweaty forehead on a company body. As an Doctor (aka HR ) I'm not going to apply deodorant to the forehead and walk away. The Wage Gap is not the problem. The sickness pervading the company is not that we need to pay women .23 more cents per dollar. The sickness is that we don't have women in higher paid positions.

Let's say the CEO, CFO, and COO are all men. Their salaries are going to help the male average more so than the female admin or jr. accountant will help the female average.

So if you want to fight the wage gap, put down the picket signs and pick up an advanced degree. Get a certification. Get an MBA. Get a Masters. And get yourself a career coach or make friends with HR so you can begin to chart what you need to get you to a top position.

There will be some stumbling blocks. If the Wage Gap is the sweaty forehead, then there is also the
- Shortness of Breath - Truth: Women are less likely to negotiate for a better salary / better potions because they feel this is all they deserve

- Queezey Stomach - Stereotypes that women are the caregivers of the home for new babies, current families, or for our aging elder populations. What happens when women start a family? Because our current cultural norm (which is changing, slowly) is that women take care of the kids and cooks dinner than they cannot also be the ones taking the higher paid 2nd or 3rd shifts or overtime. There aren't as many hours in the day. But single people can or those who are not responsible as a caregiver which in the past has typically been men.

The pregnancy conversation is also preventing women from moving to get a better job. OR even getting a job because managers assume expectant mothers will leave the workplace. Too busy with baby binkies than spreadsheets. There is also the very real possibility that a) mothers may not come back to work after their maternity time or b) have postpartum depression that prevents new mothers from returning. So some managers don't even chance it and don't hire women at all.

- Dizziness - Stereotype: Women can't make tough calls vs Women who are direct are cold *itches. Women have to navigate the push to be assertive while still being nice and warm.

Put together and all of these symptoms mean we are not taking care of the female work force. And thus there is a wage gap.

My current favorites are:

Alyssa Eve Csuk: Photographer: Rust. http://www.csukphotography.com/

Berthe Morisot: Painter: Impressionist
http://www.theartstory.org/artist-mor...

Lee Krasner: Painter: Abstract
http://www.theartstory.org/artist-kra...