Pam’s Comments (group member since Dec 29, 2016)

Pam’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

Kaitlyn wrote: "One of the main problems with statistics about how much crime occurs is that you either have to go with self-reports about crimes people admit (which has obvious problems) or you have to rely on official statistics. "

So much of racism is combined and intermixed with classicism. People who are different than the native culture are often given awful conditions when they initially enter. Those in the native culture aren't going to give the best prospects - those are going to be horded. The crumbs then go to the new, different group This lesser starting position affects housing opportunities, job prospects, education opportunities etc.

Our fears of the other person in a sense creates the economic divide that then perpetuates racism.
They can't find jobs; therefore they are all lazy, welfare queens. (Not because they don't have cars or live close to public transportation, or don't have the college degree necessary)
They drop out of school or don't go on to college; therefore they are stupid (Not because they are trying to work a job to bring in money so they can eat or cover house payments)

Our racism become justified. Cops spend more time in lower poverty areas. They arrest more people who are different. This then creates worse conditions that the people cannot escape out out.

Thus the cycle repeats.

A few years ago I gave up slave chocolate. Or chocolate that was not produced in a fair trade or environmentally conscious ways. If it did not have the certification I wouldn't consume.

My friends, who were sick of me after a few months, would then start asking... well... what happens if we gift you this... would you eat it. No. Because the companies who profited by sleazy practices still earn money

Well... what if your grandmother bought you really nice local chocolate - would you eat it? Ummm...

Well what if your grandmother made you homemade chocolate goodies melted from those chocolatier disks you can buy at craft stores or DIY kits? Ummmm...I'm not going to make my grandmother who is hard up buy me a $5 chocolate bar. That was my line. If people I loved would gift me it, and I knew they were being sincere and not just trying to trap you... I would give in.

I know this is in no way the same situation. I've got a lot of respect for those who can deny, stay focused and exclude everything that is tainted. I couldn't.

So I guess it needs to be a personal choice. If you can still gleam the same amount of mental stimulation or joy from what you have currently... keep it. If you want to spend the time dissecting producers, actors, directors, writers, to determine their personal fouls... do so.

Just try to match your beliefs with your choices. I try to make sure that movies pass a Bachdel test when I go see them. I refuse to watch anything with Jonny Depp in it now and won't be seeing the new HP film because of him. And I adore Noma Dumezweni's portrayl as Hermione. And want to see more of poc in these roles. I will never see a Woody Allen movie. But I totally own "7 Brides for 7 Brothers" and "Paint Your Wagon" or "Oklahoma" and will sing along happily with them because these were films I grew up with as a kid. And I will own up to whatever racism, misogyny, and idiocy comes with them.

And now this. Comedian Aziz Ansari has also been accused of misconduct. https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansa...
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertain...

1) What constitutes as sexual assault in a post #MeToo era?
Was this a hook up that didn't work out or was it sexual assault?
2) If Aziz's case considered assault, then is there a difference between him, James Franco, Louis CK, or Weinstein?
3) If it wasn't considered assault did "Grace's" (the woman's Pseudo-name) tale throw the whole #MeToo movement into disarray?
4) Did race play into this?
5) Did age play into this?
6) In a post-#MeToo world, who has the power?

Ross wrote: "well first I shall write a review tying into Emma's introduction this will act as a framework for the thoughts and feeling I get from the experience of reading the book.."

Looking forward to it Ross!

ShotgunBAm wrote: "...think everyone is an educator and I think our youth need to see equality in their education.

What a fantastic position. You can train the trainers as it were. Or be the example others follow.

@Jenna, @Stella. I think your both touching on the same thought. How can we do more than just reading and learning? What meaningful contributions can we make in a) places where we're not in charge and b) places where there isn't population diversity?

Even this discussion can be fraught with complications. Is this thread White Savior complex on overdrive? When does helping cross the line?

I think we can tackle microaggressions.
- Making eye contact with people you're speaking to
- Learning and correctly pronounceing people's names
- Noticing if the demographic numbers are off aka, if you're in a city council meeting and you notice the representatives don't represent the population completely
- Notice if your colleagues aren't getting the credit or same appreciation as others.
- Write letters to the editor about things you see in the paper/online media that can be racist or enforcing stereotypes
- Challenge our own grudges and judgements.

What else?

I haven't finished reading but in Chapter 2: The System there are accounts about racial profiling and how hard it is to get ahead. It bothers me because I do come from a racist family. And I can hear them quoting these stats as proof as to why they are correct. Context is key. Numbers can be swayed for any argument so we must be careful and we must continue to push ahead.

More than ever I want to create a growing knowledge base by creating internship opportunities and talking to young people. And while I've been able to increase the number of opportunities for women, we have yet to hire someone who is Black. Asian, yes. Latin American, yes, Middle Eastern, yes. Black... Not yet. Not having the candidates isn't a good enough reason for me anymore.

In her introduction to the book, Emma mentions that she went through an "interrogation of self" peeling back the layers of her own concious and unconscious decisions and opinions.

So I am curious about our individual reactions and similar interactions with the information presented by Eddo-Lodge. This is a two part question because I fully believe that while knowledge is power, we still need to act.

While reading this book what made you uncomfortable?
After reading this book what are you going to do about it?

I know nothing about this. I assume given how treatment works for other drugs, is that you have to find the correct dosage for the individual. It's easier to do that with a monoculture than with trying to find the correct amount with three + unique treatments at the same time.

But...maybe as more and more people need hormone therapy we'll start seeing more advancements in this field.

Or maybe a lot of us aren't brown and are letting others speak first. :)

How wonderful that we sort of proved each others arguments in "would this happen."

Those who said women, having gone through oppression, would be least likely to oppress.
- women who have been in all female lead institutions that were "exploitative and uninterested in balance"
- mothers who have children of both sexes who want what's best for both
- continuous questions about people that don't follow the binary genders - concerns for people who aren't those in charge

And we have also shown that there are those who want to admonish or punish our former oppressors.
- requests to remove them from power
- repatriation or repayment for the years of abuse, etc.
- and what would happen if women did this. Would men stay down or would they fight back? Does this concern for their disagreement and our current conditioning teach women NOT to take over for fear of reprecussions?

Also other ideas were broached
- It always seems to be physical power. But what about other kinds of power
- the tendency to speak up. How do we speak our minds and be true to our selves while still being mindful of letting others speak? When is it right to talk up? When does it cross a line?
- How do the choices we make today effect the next generations. We're angry now. But will that anger be tempered or fed two generations from now?
- Does the HeForShe movement actually do anything to help men? Or is it a in vogue lame duck?

Excellent discussion so far!

Ah. Thank you!

Microaggressions. In another thread an OSS poster mentioned that in a better world men and women would "Recognize the toxicity of microaggressions."

I'm unfamiliar with this term. Can anyone help answer:
What are they? What are they not? What's the solution?

Sociologists are having field days right now with this.

Fighting the system gets you no where. You are less likely to get into positions of power to change anything you're labeled a trouble maker and deals just don't go your way. You become ostracized, isolated. Especially in something as close knit as Hollywood where it's who you know who gets you places. See also small towns (rural), family businesses, etc.

So most people end of working with the system. Keeping mum while they get more and more opportunities to get ahead. They'll probably never get the power, but keep being duped into thinking they have more and more control. And through this carrot leading technique those in power get to know how much they can trust you. Weeding out people who have different loyalties or at least marking them as people they don't want to deal with. Alliances etc.

Or you become niche. You gain power, have mentors, sponsors and you can make a difference in your specific area but you don't really have any control about what people do in their own areas. You can warn. You can create the example of what you want to happen. But you cant out right take them down.

So yeah..you want to look at those who have been crying fowl for a long time who don't have anything. Then you start labeling them not only hard to work with but crazy etc. They become an example of what not to do to anyone else who starts getting ideas.

We're seeing a change because there is an overwhelming amount of people who are joining together and leveraging their combined voice against something that's wrong. This is the same for the Black Life Matters movement as much as for the Times Up /Me Too movement as much as the labor fights back in the early 1920s.

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It's funny. It's super funny. @Ross. You said this would happen! You were so right. In a former post/thread some members of OSS were interested in reading anti-feminist literature to understand their POV. Try to understand the enemy and their arguments. There was a very strong push from some OSSers that said that you can't speak to them because they are so focused on their own agenda. You can't get a word in without them calling dissenting voices names or dismissing logical arguments as hearsay. My apologies for not completely understanding what you meant.

I've read it before, but this is the first time I'm seeing how similar enemies can really be. This is fascinating to me. Please go on. How close to MRA tactics can radical feminism get?

Completely agree Ross. Masculinity is not bad. Just as feminism is not bad. Each have extremists though.

Can women counter women for toxic femininity? the princess narascist, the hopeless damsel? While men counter the toxic masculinity that says boys can't show emotion or must get laid early as a sign of their passage into manhood etc

Andrea wrote: ". It's disheartening since a lot of criticism is coming from other women. Anyway, thoughts on how you fix this underlying problem of hypercriticism of women. Or am I imaging it? Or maybe as they say "she's just crazy". "

Yup. Sounds about right. Welcome to feminism. It's like the matrix, once you see it you can't un-see the layers of crud and misogyny.

As to how to handle. 1) stop buying the snake oil that these places peddle. 2) Acknowledge that you are imperfect, that perfect doesn't exist and you're wonderful as is. 3) Be mindful of victimhood. 4) Learn more, read more, talk to others and share your experience. 5) Don't listen to any list or 5 steps. And just be.

Jumping in late....men do have a place within feminism in working on how men act in this world. Dealing with Toxic Masculinity. Taking on the understanding of what "real men" act like. Trying to help men and children define their own roles. Geek Misogyny, subversive boyhood, juvenile males, etc. Confront the tropes holding your gender back.

Men might not be the ones to run a feminist organization but there is still plenty areas where male voices can help redefine our world.

I highly recommend checking this you tube, if you haven't seen it already, pop culture detective.

I know, this is going to be unpopular. I don't want Oprah for President.

She is amazing at news and producing, at as Tracy mentioned oration and inspiring people but she isn't familiar with constitutional law. We don't need another billionaire playing politician.

I'm right there with you Griselda. Reading it was disturbing and caused me to be angry at how quickly the Power fed an unsustainable anger and desire to dominate.

I liked that Naomi gave us Jos. And how people with Power would still harass or belittle those who didn't have Power. To me, it wasn't a true matriarchy given how the girls would harass Jos despite her gender. They would still follow her and say "Pzzt" or call her names or later when she was in the military they would roll their eyes when she would try fighting.