Pam’s Comments (group member since Dec 29, 2016)

Pam’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

My pleasure. Thanks for your link, too!

What is interesting to me is the parallel between each book.

Both center on a marginalized group, whose voice is not recognized, and even told to be quite. Both tales incorporate the willingness to push forward and to persevere in the face of personal and public questioning and shaming.

How much better our world can be when we use our voice to share our viewpoints?

How much better our world can be if we listen to each other, empathise with people who differ from us?

Great picks OSS members. Great picks.

Want more?

This era 1900-1920 was considered America's Progressive Era, in part because this new emergence of technology/ industrialization/ and exploitation.

We moved rapidly from a country that subsisted primarily as an agrarian society into a more industrialized nation. The Civil War changed how we looked at industry. The influx of immigrants gave us the resources to move quickly. Technology (electricity, the telephone, etc ) made communication with our furthest borders and the rest of the world that much more easier and faster. News moved quickly. Exponentially faster.

And as things progressed, we found we didn't have rules for life.

- cars, for example, we were coming to terms with road signs and traffic laws that would protect horse drawn carriages or horse back or walkers.

And so to with industry. In this torrential influx of millions of people all clamoring for a job (pre -war), business got away with murder. Because even if a person lost a limb in a machine, they would be easily replaced (sound familiar?)

With communication expanding, education improving a new push for social justice and awareness bread a heightened empowerment of journalism. Specifically Muckraking journalism.

"The term muckraker was used in the Progressive Era to characterize reform-minded American journalists who attacked established institutions and leaders as corrupt."

Some of the key documents that came to define the work of the muckrakers were:

Ray Stannard Baker published "The Right to Work" in McClure's Magazine in 1903, about coal mine conditions, a coal strike, and the situation of non-striking workers (or scabs). Many of the non-striking workers had no special training or knowledge in mining, since they were simply farmers looking for work. His investigative work portrayed the dangerous conditions in which these people worked in the mines, and the dangers they faced from union members who did not want them to work.

Lincoln Steffens published "Tweed Days in St. Louis", in which he profiled corrupt leaders in St. Louis, in October 1902, in McClure's Magazine.[25] The prominence of the article helped lawyer Joseph Folk to lead an investigation of the corrupt political ring in St. Louis.

Ida Tarbell published The Rise of the Standard Oil Company in 1902, providing insight into the manipulation of trusts. One trust they manipulated was with Christopher Dunn Co. She followed that work with The History of The Standard Oil Company: the Oil War of 1872, which appeared in McClure's Magazine in 1908. She condemned Rockefeller's immoral and ruthless business tactics and emphasized “our national life is on every side distinctly poorer, uglier, meaner, for the kind of influence he exercises.” Her book generated enough public anger that it led to the splitting up of Standard Oil under the Sherman Anti Trust Act.[26]

Upton Sinclair published The Jungle in 1906, which revealed conditions in the meat packing industry in the United States and was a major factor in the establishment of the Pure Food and Drug Act and Meat Inspection Act.[27] Sinclair wrote the book with the intent of addressing unsafe working conditions in that industry, not food safety.[27] Sinclair was not a professional journalist but his story was first serialized before being published in book form. Sinclair considered himself to be a muckraker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muckraker

If you got this far: thank you!

What does all this mean for our heroines of Radium Girls?

1) With WW1 more and more dials with glow in the dark Radium painted numerals were being bought. (Demand)

2) With an influx of immigrants, especially those trying to escape WW1, there were hundreds of thousands of people all vying for jobs. (SUPPLY)

3) Women were employed, not because of equality, but because you could pay them less than you would a man. Plus, this was a particular job that was delicate; requiring smaller hands than a man's, but with more focus than a child. And hence why women were employed here.

4) Women were so grateful fora job let alone one so high paying, that many of them didn't think badly about their positions.

World War I, also known as the First World War, the Great War, or the War to End All Wars, was a global war originating in Europe that lasted from 28 July 1914 to 11 November 1918

When World War I erupted in 1914, President Woodrow Wilson pledged neutrality for the United States, a position that the vast majority of Americans favored. Britain, however, was one of America’s closest trading partners, and tension soon arose between the United States and Germany over the latter’s attempted quarantine of the British Isles. Several U.S. ships traveling to Britain were damaged or sunk by German mines, and in February 1915 Germany announced unrestricted warfare against all ships, neutral or otherwise, that entered the war zone around Britain.

On May 7, the British-owned Lusitania ocean liner was torpedoed without warning just off the coast of Ireland. Of the 1,959 passengers, 1,198 were killed, including 128 Americans.

The German government maintained that the Lusitania was carrying munitions, but the U.S. demanded reparations and an end to German attacks on unarmed passenger and merchant ships. In August, Germany pledged to see to the safety of passengers before sinking unarmed vessels, but in November sunk an Italian liner without warning, killing 272 people, including 27 Americans. With these attacks, public opinion in the United States began to turn irrevocably against Germany.

In 1917, Germany, determined to win its war of attrition against the Triple Alliance announced the resumption of unrestricted warfare in war-zone waters.

Three days later, the United States broke diplomatic relations with Germany, and just hours after that the American liner Housatonic was sunk by a German U-boat. On February 22, Congress passed a $250 million arms appropriations bill intended to make the United States ready for war. In late March, Germany sunk four more U.S. merchant ships, and on April 2 President Wilson appeared before Congress and called for a declaration of war against Germany. Four days later, his request was granted.

On June 26, the first 14,000 U.S. infantry troops landed in France to begin training for combat. After four years of bloody stalemate along the western front, the entrance of America’s well-supplied forces into the conflict marked a major turning point in the war and helped the Allies to victory.

When the war finally ended, on November 11, 1918, more than two million American soldiers had served on the battlefields of Western Europe, and some 50,000 of them had lost their lives.

Feminism

Women's Rights were lacking. And the First Wave of Feminism was created with women (upper to middle class white women) seeking rights to own property, have a personal claim on their earnings, share equal guardianship of their children, and have the right to vote. Many organizations were growing to support this movement. Women across the nation finally gained the right to vote in 1920.

- The Civil War was over, the Wild West wasn't so wild, California was a State, trains connected the East to the West, and telegraph's could get communication from one side of the country to the other.

(In the greater world, the Victorian era ended, with King Edward starting the Edwardian time period. This marks something of the end of Exploration, too. Where white man had no more hidden areas to explore such as the Congo or India, and the western world was turning inward. Vienna was THE place to be with Freud, Klimt, Wagner and Mahler entering the scene)
https://bigthink.com/Picture-This/how...

- Between 1880 and 1920, a time of rapid industrialization and urbanization, America received more than 20 million immigrants. Ellis Island, an immigration port, opened up in 1892. Certain folk: Chinese/Irish, were looked down upon and refused port. Many jobs specifically segregated against having these nationality working, forcing these people to take on some of the lowest of the low positions: digging canals, building the railroad, farming.
http://www.history.com/topics/u-s-imm...

-Because most immigrants were poor when they arrived, they often lived on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, where rents for the crowded apartment buildings, called tenements, were low. Some examples: buildings were built in 1860's ( 40 yrs old by 1901) could house 20 families, four on each floor. Each apartment had only three rooms: a living or "front" room, a kitchen, and a tiny bedroom. Often seven or more people lived in each apartment. Not only was the tenement crowded, but also, until 1905, there were no bathrooms inside the building. Residents also did not have electric power until after 1918. http://www.americaslibrary.gov/es/ny/...

- On the heels of the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclimation, occured the Great Black Exodus or Black Migration. Where the recently freed slaves moved to the North for jobs and a chance at a better life. Which "Until 1910, more than 90 percent of the African-American population lived in the American South." (For those who were wondering where were the POC Radium girls- most didn't live in Jersey or Illinois, nor would they have been given such a lucrative job as a dial painter as Moore explained in her video interview.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_M...

- Thanks in part to industrailzation, which could employ more people than an farm, as well as the influx of immigrants, (demand + supply) child labor was rampant. 10% of all American girls between the ages of 10 and 15 and 20% of boys had jobs. Boys working in mines and quarries received 60 cents for a 10-hour workday.

- Only 7 states required school attendance to 16.
The average life span for men was 46 years old. Women were expected to live to the age of 48. Major causes of death were tuberculosis, pneumonia, malaria, diphtheria, and influenza.

Technology:

-Electricity was used primarily in industry in 1901, but was rapidly spreading. Most houses would have use lanterns or tallow candels for light. Again, homes like tenements for the poor, working families, wouldn't have been installed until 1918. At which the buildings themselves would have been at least 50+ yrs old and lived through constant large families and the ware and tear that comes with them.

- The Orville brothers solve the mystery of flight: in 1903 the Wright brothers achieved the first powered, sustained and controlled airplane flight; they surpassed their own milestone two years later when they built and flew the first fully practical airplane. This would later change warfare forever

- While there were cars for the immensely rich and carefree, they didn't quite catch on until Ford's Model T and the invention of the assembly line in 1913

One of my complaints against Moore's telling of the Radium Girls was the lack of context. While the horror of their experiences came through by the end of part two/part three, there really wasn't a clear reason (to me) how monumental their fight was. This wasn't simple a tale of good vs evil of nobel good hearted lawyers who fought against big company. I never quite understood the scope of WHY this was such a big ordeal.(view spoiler)[ Why this was the first case that won against business for employee welfare. (hide spoiler)]

This thread then is my effort to provide some solutions to that complaint: to go into a few more details behind the time period, the workforce, and the issues women still fight against today.

What an amazing interview.

Thank you Reni Eddo-Lodge for providing such an in-depth and conversational discussion that ranged from current political climate, rap culture, to Thomas's process. Thank you so much for being our interviewer.

And to Angie, your book is such an amazing and beautifully crafted novel; the work you put into it, the care provided is a testament to the authenticity and passion in each word. Thank you for answering our questions

Awesome work Meerder. Posting to boost the signal

Gerd wrote: "Well, jealousy as I understand sees the person your partner is with as threat, when the threat, if there is one, lies in the relationship with your partner or how he/she acts on it.

Oh so true.

How often do we think the problem lies with the supposed temptation and not the tempted? If you're worried that your partner is straying... Then that's on you and your partner...not on the other person

Oh goodness where to start...

The one that made a lasting impression was when Maverick pulled Starr over and had her recite the Black Panther 10 points program.

That was the "we're not in Kansas anymore" moment. Everything up to that point seemed like it could have been pulled from headlines or other inner city school dramas. But as a white person, I don't see a lot of what makes the family cope or how values may differ. Plus, the Black Panther/Black Power movement was something my family dismissed, if not outright didn't approve of and therefore not something I was cognizant about. Bearing "witness" to it was a measure of reality and historical placement that all of the other media's failed. So yeah... That scene.

To be fair... Outside of Napoleon, WWI, and WW2, I don't think I know much about Austrian history. So no sweat!

Michaela wrote: "Especially because it's not only determined by personal experience or gender expectations, but culture also plays a really big role in it.
Dating works totally different in the US than it works e.g. in germany. And even here in germany, it may depend on what age people have, how they were socialized or in which social group they are mostly moving"

Exactly! I'm really curious how feminism has played a role in this. (Primarily F/M or F/F pairings). Now that women are in the work force, do men still have to pay? etc. etc.

Does feminism play a part in M/M pairings?

Gerd wrote: But it seems to me that when the friendship to another man (or vice versa) can pose a threat to a relationship, that relationship would be doomed anyway?

That's the issue, is what to both parties consider threatening behavior?

Pop culture would have us believe any sort of relationship or regular correspondence with a gender you are attracted to (m-w, m-m, f-f etc) means that you're a cheater. And if that was the case then I'm hosed! Talking to all the men here without the supervision of my significant other. Let alone working alongside men at work! (Cue sarcasm)

Figure out your boundaries. What means cheating to you?
- talking to someone in the gender you're attracted to
- texting them casually
- texting them regularly
- texting them nonstop
- hanging out unsupervised at social events. (I.e. without you)
- hanging out alone together without you or others.
- etc

There are shades of grey involved to each line. Where do you feel comfortable? Where does your partner feel comfortable?

My sister once had a guy cheat on her. She caught him getting head from some girl. The bastard's response was that he wasn't cheating because he wasn't having sex which was one of their rules. She defined sex as anything that gave you release, he defined it as vaginal penetration.

She ended up (stupidly) forgiving him because she accepted his definition. But informed him that her definition would be the one they use going forward. (He ended up cheating on her again to the surprise of only her) but the point remains... Save yourself some agony of understanding what does your partner mean. Where are their lines.

Especially as we move forward in the MeTo world where Consent is huge. Understand what you are consenting to, and what you object to.

Great adds! Thanks Kate.

Given this book and The Hate U Give, reading "When they Call you a Terrorist" will continue moving from provocative reaction, fiction, to action.

Sure, so by assumptions I mean expectations or pre-made ideas on how certain circumstances should go.

Like for example:
- who drives on a date?
- who asks whom first?
- who pays?

People have set ideas on these answers. Things they may not be asking before they establish a relationship.

Hello Reni!

You specifically chose to title your book "Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race", in essence excluding white people from the conversation. This beautiful reverse psychology actually did the opposite, it peaked white people's attention and generated some deep discussion about our role in casual and structural racism.

It's been a few months since your book has been released, hopefully the press tour is over and you have been able to reflect on your book's reception. My question is how has the feedback been for you? How do you feel that book has been received?

New Topic:

Relationship Assumptions

Last week was Father's Day in the States. A time when we honor / offer gratitude for those who are responsible for who we are today.

One of the lovely tributes I read this weekend was from Bart Erbach (https://onbeing.org/blog/inheriting-a...) about the inheritance of assumptions. Specifically in his case, the idea that the father was the breadwinner but not the caretaker, that the father is the enforcer not the forgiver.

"I think it's safe to say I inherited these roles from my own father, like an automatic download. But I knew I wanted more. Most Dads do." - Bart Erbach

So I'm curious what other assumptions we make in our relationships. Be they what expectations we put on Brothers. Fathers. Lovers.

- What do we expect from the men in our lives?
- What roles are our fathers supposed to lead?
- What roles are our brothers supposed to lead?
- What roles are our lovers supposed to lead?
- In our romantic relationships: what do MEN have to do when they are courting you? How do they show you they are worth it?
- Are these fair expectations given today's world? Or are these expectations light aka too easy? Are we asking enough? Or is the bar really low?

For the Gentlemen:
- What assumptions do you value and try to uphold? Which ones do you reject?
- Have you tried to defy these expectations? Did it work out?

I like what Benarji says. Well, first and foremost, I think that we need to accept that there is nothing wrong in being jealous. The only issue is what we do with that emotion

Jealousy, like all emotions, is a mark that some needs are not being met. And it's up to you and your partner to communicate that issue and the solution. (Extremes outbursts of that emotion, however, are to be avoided. )

- If you have a good relationship, you'll both put some time and energy into it.
- If you have a poor relationship, then you'll find only one person trying to put time and energy into.

I'm also of the mindset that arguing is a healthy sign. Can you have an opposite opinion than your significant other? If so, how does that sit with the relationship? If you can't work around it, great news! Then you know not to waste your time. If you can work around it, great news! You know someone will always be honest with you.