Pam’s Comments (group member since Dec 29, 2016)

Pam’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

Charlene wrote: "But when Mrs. Danvers accuses Robert of stealing the china figure, Maxim told our narrator that servant quarrels are her territory not his. So Maxim is expecting our narrator to be able to run a household like Rebecca did without any experience that Rebecca had. In a way, not helping her to adjust to her new surrounding could be a bit manipulative as it keeps her unprepared. ."

To me that's a man washing his hands of "women's work."

I could even see this as encouragement. He is letting her run her house, to implement her rules. She doesn't have to seek his approval or fear his retribution if she steps out of place. Because this is her place. He is letting her know that this is her territory.

Stealing this from Megan's review

Megan wrote The thing that struck me was Maxim's grandmother saying that 3 things matter in a wife: brains, beauty and breeding. While I agree with the brains part, I am appalled she thinks that's what makes a perfect wife. Hello, how about kindness, generosity, honesty? Compassion? Honor? Come on, beauty doesn't last forever. It's grating to see the old lady look down on her own gender.

I adore Megan's input here because there is so much to pull from it.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... We've talked in other threads about Rebecca was a femme fatale or a silenced women in the attic.

But I'm curious more about the rules of society that are played out differently in the classes. Unless anyone here is part Windsor or in a duchy, we have no true concept of the rules of etiquette from these positions of power. We only have what passes as good manners today to go by. (Or Downton Abbey or other regency classics.)

So I would love to hear what everyone thinks "Makes a Lady." Lady here being a title for a woman within a noble family.

And what makes a modern lady; in whatever gender or form you take.

Any thoughts on Rebecca's sexuality and gender identity?

Was she a lesbian in love with Mrs. Danvers?
Was she bisexual, pansexual, etc?
Was she gender fluid? Was she trans? Was she giving in to her masculine nature? A Tomboy?


How did you read Du Maurier's titular character?

Emma wrote: "Unicorn wrote: "I had the same thoughts. I was just like girrrl if you ever do something wrong he'll kill you too. Rebecca was horrible but she didn't deserve to. What if it were you? I mean you ar..."

That's the thing about falling for abusers. (or murderers in this case) Surely they won't do it to you! You're THE one. You're Special!

Charlene wrote: Some of it is probably product of the times and wealth, but he specifically chose the second Mrs de Winter because she was the exact opposite of Rebecca. So I would more lean toward manipulator then since it was a conscious decision on his part."

Once burned twice warned. That's not manipulation, that's common sense.

Outside of marrying a young woman, he doesn't do anything to control her or to bind her to do anything against her own nature. He in fact leaves her alone outside of dining with her.

His biggest failing is that he doesn't tell her anything. He could have told her months and weeks ago that he was not inclined towards Rebecca and saved us all a story.

Florian wrote "I'm curious, why do you think it is not wise nor smart? To some extent it may be smart if the person is marrying someone to get benefits. For example if the man or the woman is super old and rich you know... ok it's seedy but some people do that.

This is more of how I feel about an older man marrying a younger woman based on my realities today. A 40 yr old marrying a 20 year old would make me question what's wrong with the 40 year old to why he couldn't find a woman closer to his age to go out with him OR I would question how wealthy he is to be such a sugar daddy.

smart tactic!

Unpopular opinion coming:

Florian wrote: "So I would say he influences (maybe "manipulates" would be more appropriate) her behaviour and even the perception she has of herself."

Ok: Not for not: marrying someone half your age is not the wisest nor smartest decision.

But our society had no problems with Hugh Hefner dating/cohabitating with Bunnies because, hey, at least they were adults and not teenagers. I.e. they were able to leave at any time and make their way in the world. (Or so we justify)

Our narrator is fond of him, so we have to take her rose colored glasses off to really look at the issues at hand. But he doesn't seem to manipulate her as so much as just let's her be.

After living with Rebecca who ran everything; what job did he really have in telling Rebecca what to do? After living in that environment, it's possible that he was also just hands off with Mrs. De Winter and had no idea how to teach her to be wife.

The most we saw of their interactions was that if anything he was puzzled by her reluctance to do anything:
- talking to the servants (some he knew and ordered about since childhood)
- engaging with people which was something he hated and avoided himself, Hardly the best role model. This was again something Rebecca did. So he never had to do
- Hosting a party. Again, something he loathed and left to Rebecca to do. Even doing it all over again they just used the same formulas and lists that Rebecca did.
- Going back to his status, as he was taught how to run Manderly, it can also be assumed that a woman of his station (Breeding) would have also taught the wife what she was supposed to do. Heck, I don't even think he would be hands on with any daughters as that wouldn't be his role at the house. That's what nannies are for.

We can put the error of marrying someone so young on him. But is he a manipulator or just a product of the times and his wealth? I'm inclined to think the later.

Bailey wrote: "I placed her around 18 to 19. The "childlike" description could be a metaphor, for her innocence or naive behavior."

Or it could be very well that she JUST turned 18 /19. Legally she is an adult, but she may not have matured or thought of herself as an adult - able to make decisions, live on her own, make a living doing something other than act as someone's child etc.

Historical note: By the 1920's
- the English age of consent was 16
- The French age of consent was 13

The full table can be found here:
https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/0...

I have never actually heard people saying Happy Columbus day since leaving grade school. Mostly because people still have to go to work.

That said, Columbus, OH announced that it is not celebrating it! So there is some recognition of the reality.

Ok, My copy has been mailed.

love!

James wrote: "Had not heard of this until now but agree with the article writer.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics...

" Did you he..."

That's just awful! Ugh!

I have one English copy.

Anyone want it?

A tale of envy most bitter and jealosy most potent.

I also cringed at the inexperience and nativity du Maurier write effortlessly. Quite an up down world with side comments and intrigue

Oh goodness. I adore Mrs. van Hopper. Du Maurier mentions gleefully that the old bag extinguishes her cigarettes. And our poor narrator finds buds in cold creame and butter! Butter! Ah. Just the disdain, the cheeky flagrant attitude. Love Du Maurier! HILARIOUS. She is quite the biddy! I love it.

Florian wrote: "Ok, I propose you to move on a 2nd topic (I have a few topics in mind). I'll post it tonight, I'll add it to the first post of this thread and I'll change the title :)

Of course, if someone wants ..."

Oh. Could you not? That might confuse people new to the thread. I highly recommend either continuing the conversation here with a new post on this topic or creating a new topicall together.

Florian wrote: "I totally agree that Mary Shelley was a feminist at that time. It is just we have different perception. Maybe in 200 years people will say that Emma Watson was not a feminist. What I try to mean is..."

Context is everything. For all those "I don't need feminism because..." Believers there is the truth that without those who came before you wouldn't have a basis for what is "normal"

Totally Team Frankie is Feminist

- Shelly was raised in a household that stated women are equal to men. She grew up living this, and only when she left her home she saw this isn't the norm.
- A known womanizer, Lord Bryon, scoffed at this idea, even challenging her to write a ghost story, thinking that no woman could ever come up with something that would scare a true man's man. (I totally picture Gaston in my head). So she wrote Frankenstein. Also, Byron was 30, published, respected, and her husband's good friend. Mary was 20.
- Pulling from her own mother's death from childbirth and her own experience with still births, Mary Shelly looked into creation and life, something which was only a woman's domain. One could say it was her inability to do the one thing allotted to her gender, that made this particularly gruesome. But she showed man's folly and the unnaturalness of when man attempts to create life without women.
- More so, by removing women from the equation all together, by keeping the parts small you don't have the monster experience a mother's touch. Again, given the timing, father's of this era weren't supposed to interact much with children. That was the wives/ female nanny's time. Shelly took this to the extreme and showed that when devoid of female nuturing, left adrift with only a father's stern temperament, the child (aka the monster) doesn't have the social grace's to be an heir, they are not human. That women should not be regulated to a sideline, but are central to the preservation of civilization.

In essence Mary Shelly is screaming that without women, men and their offspring would be monstrous and unnatural. ( One big old F-you to Byron)

- oh and then the whole mate to the monster .. "she might become ten thousand times more malignant than her mate, and delight for it's own sake in murder and wretchedness." " A race of devils would be propagated upon the Earth who might make the very existance of the species of man a condition precarious and full of terror" I.e
Man cannot contain his own creation, how would he be able to control a creation that can create, too?

-Ok. And then! And then this feminist who wrote a pretty darn good book, then had the audacity to print it and make it known to the world. And the world laughed at her. Telling her that again...a woman couldn't have done this. It as to be her husband's work. Or they refused to print a woman's piece. Like.... She was married to a known and romantic writer. They had money. Connections into the publishing world. AND still the world denied her. She could have bribed them, could have leveraged her husband's name, etc. And that didn't work because she was a woman.

-So what did this feminist do? Knowing in her heart of hearts that her mother's teaching, that the genders were equal, and that the imagination isn't granted to men only, she. published her work anyways under a fake name. Can you imagine? Mary Shelley isn't good enough but Marty Shelly is just fine? What a bitter pill to swallow for a feminist of her day.

Like fuck yeah. She might have come from privledge, and yeah she had money, but none of that helped her in this moment. None of that helped her when she lost another baby. She might not be the feminist of today's standards, but we only have those standards because she kept pushing to show women could write. And because she kept showing that women are essential to life and living.

Heather wrote: "Also! How do you even talk to people about feminism? I am super shy and really hate confrontation, but this is something I believe in! And I really want to learn how to tell people about it!"

Completely understandable.

Like anything, talking about your convictions becomes easier over time the more you practice. So keep asking questions here on OSS, post comments about your experience, read other's stories etc.

And take solace in the fact that we're not asking you to become a great debater (Great if you do!). What we and your friends and family want is a way to understand what makes you tick. And if it's feminism or baking or jiu jitso or Ohm's law or whatnot... anyone who cares about you wants to know what you think. We want to know you; your passions, your dislikes, your interests, etc. And for everyone else.... who cares?