Pam’s Comments (group member since Dec 29, 2016)

Pam’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

Terese Marie Mailhot AND the amazing Roxane Gay touched a question I had. This is just amazing. Ah. Love. #FangirlJoys

Thank you so much Terese for writing an irreducible and complex novel. I read in awe of your courage and passion.

And a large thanks to our guest interviewer Roxane Gay, the fact that you took some time out of your crazy schedule is so amazing. Thank you.

Thank you to Emma and the modertors as well for all the work you do to continue making OSS a continual place of learning.

That's a lot of pent up emotion and confusion.

We see this a lot on OSS with any sorts of divisions. Male vs female, mother vs child free, poc vs white. Hurt vs not.
Someone (Krystal?) Posted once that as a poc, it sometimes it's exaugsting to have to explain yourself and your ideals all the time. (My words now) That after awhile you either feel like a rat in a lab expirment or you feel like people are constantly asking you to prove your worth. That by being different you're instantly judged as being different and this subject to being questioned.

So it's this very thin line, right? Are you a person first or are you a token? Are you the mouth piece for your entire community or are you just one person with faults passions and quirks entirely your own?

So a lot of people under those conditions just don't want to educate any well intentioned individual.

The only thing I have seen that works, that keeps people from having their hackles raised and on the defensive is to listen. And if you have questions to pose general questions.

The two glaring times this doesn't work is when someone wants the full complete history and manifesto or when questions create defensive answers. I.e they aren't very respectful or does more to extole the brilliance of the questioner than the answer.

Outside, outside people have to trust you/ know you first. Right, like if you meet friends of a friend, you don't ask for their entire life story that minute. You ask simple questions and then as your relationship grows as you do more things together you can ask harder and harder questions. For community or groups, you have do a little leg work. Read up on their history, watch their films, read their newspapers. Follow the problems they face. Then with that knowledge you can hopefully find others or strike up conversations online with that community too.

Here on OSS, a lot of posters do a good job with adding reference sites and other resources with each book we read to give a larger picture. And we're fortunate to have a number of people from different countries and backgrounds all willing to engage.

Does anyone have anything else to add?

so to you, I ask, as your co-OSS member, what do you need to get through this? What do you need to help you heal?

Let me address the issues in #9.
- What I'm saying is it is hard to help someone who just wants to blame you for everything. I live in an area where Native Americans are the majority of our diversity. When discussion are attempted between peoples, anything that could possibly come from the discussions gets derailed by finger pointing and resentment instead of working toward understanding and making plans. I've grown up with resentment being thrown at me for being white

Living in these areas are no joke. I'm sorry you grew up in an environment that had a lot of issues that were dumped on you while you were still making sense of the world.

I'm a big proponent that children should be children. But children have an innate capacity to pick up on emotions and to witness actions that adults do not. And then worse, the do not have the capabilities to make sense of these items nor to act on it or communicate it.

Realizing you are no longer a child, but the product of that environment, I'm glad that you are coming to OSS and having this conversation from a place of inquiry and not outright dislike - which would be the norm.

The arguments I hear are never about how things can be improved and what needs to be done to help. It is about blaming and finger pointing. That is where this question of accountability comes from.

I see

We cannot make progress if real discussions of what needs to be done do not happen. We cannot make progress if the only interaction is an argument over who is to blame. Yes, white people of the past are to be blamed for what has happened now. I am not a white person who made that decision. I am a white person living with the consequences and getting berated by the resentful victims and descendants of those victims. What good does this resentment do anyone? How does finger pointing help anyone? How can anything be accomplished if we can't discuss the issues without arguing about who's fault it is?

You're absolutely right. Look how hard it was here for us to hold a conversation? And I'm not even a product of that environment!

My recommendations is to bring in a professional facilitator, ask for peace leaders to come forward (normally religious) or work with the non-profit or government entity that handles relations like that.

Has something like that happened in the past?
Or do you or someone else in your community have the desire to heal this rift? Reset the bone, as it were, so that the community can heal together and work together for the benefit of the community?

On the individual level: people are so very angry. You are for growing up in that world, they are for growing up in that world. It's a no win situation. Both sides are hurting. And the side is acting out.

So I think the next question if both sides are hurting than who starts the conversation? I think it's the one who has the power. They have to be humble. They have to make an effort.

You may be asking me why. It's because of the power difference.
(The next metaphor is not to say that either population is representative in the specific characters, but how to be good to something that is hurting and with a clear power difference, in no way is this a sign of anyone's maturity or capability)
If you have a child that is crying, disruptive and causing an altercation - you can yell at them. Berate them into being quite. But that's not going to solve the problem long term. I think you calm them down, help them to realize that they are being heard. And that requires you to sometimes remove yourself from the situation, to take a calming tone. To admit that things aren't perfect. And then start asking them what they need to make it better.

Grief counselors, for example, don't ask "how can I make it better" because the it is not something that can ever be solved or better. They instead ask "What do you need"

And I acknowledge that this is hard. Because you also have been hurt and have been in pain because of all of this pain.

Ok:

We're both invested in this. So much so that we are replying to each other's comments at the same time the other person is posting. Difficult to hold a conversation on a website as is. But we have pretty much shouted over each other at the same time.

So I do apologize, I didn't see your comment #9 when I was adding/typing #10. I was summarizing my feelings from my comment #8.

My next comment will go over what you posted in #9. That way we can start over and both address what the other is talking about.

My apologies.

I hear excuses when this sort of conversation comes up. " I didn't do that! "

What you're doing is starting a conversation/ a relationship on the defensive. "YES, BUT..."

And if you truly want to work on this... Truly want to put an end to this... Admit that fault happened and ask how you can help make it better.

Cause your inconvenience of being affiliated with slavers or the trail of tears is NOTHING compared to the agony of living through it and dealing with the continuous affect of it.

Ashley wrote: ". I mean that should we be blamed for the actions of those who came before us? I am talking largely about Native Americans being assimilated and then put on reservations, and, before that, owning slaves (and slaves were more than just black, those are just the only ones that really get recognized today). I'm talking about any and all conquests that have happened leading to how society is today. Any and all mistreatment from one peoples to another that lead to where we are today. Should the current generation be help responsible for what happened when they were not alive when that happened nor did they have a say in the matter. .."

This is a privledge conversation, is it not?

White people have the ability to say - my ancestors (3-4+ people removed) did this, not me
Indigenous people as Krystal pointed out - my family was effected -within 1 person removed and are still being affected.

Neither group is wrong. Both perspectives are correct.

We keep saying things like we acknowledge and let's move on working together. But we have to first acknowledge that pain was given AND is still happening.

I'll give an example. Redlining.

Because of practices done from people in the 50's, African Americans live in improvised neighborhoods and we're denied funding to improve their lot. Homes alone affect your health (live too close together, live close to factories, or homes built before aspestos was banned or lead in paint befire it was discontinued), financial prowess (can't use your home as capital) and even opportunities ( can't get a high paying job if you don't have funds to purchase a car to drive there so you make with what's do)

The ripples of that injustice still affects the upperward mobility of multiple generations.

How does that affect you? Well... You now have blighted communities. Tax burdens that make us resentful. Illerate population. Gangs. Health issues so severe that that's where all your tax money is going to. Etc etc.

You and your family on the other hand may have been given a loan. May have had opportunities for improvement because banks saw the color of your skin and took a chance on you. Because your family had a working parent(s) who could afford to go to school for a better job than a trade or factory work. you had food in your stomach which allowed you to concentrate on your studies, to get passing grades, to show that education standards may be in your future.

Yes! You probably did work your butt off. Your family probably worked their butt off to get you where you are now. But somewhere you benefited from a practice that favored your family over someone else. You are on a step( 5 steps) up the ladder.

How can you begin to help the population get over it and come together to fix it if you don't peel back the layers and understand what happened was because of continuous favoritism.

And how can the current population get people to listen to them when the ones are responsible are dead? You are here. You can listen. And you can help them after you understand the whole complex issues- from where it started to how you benefited.

Because we're not asking that you donate $x or give up a job you had for a poc.

We're asking that while you acknowledge you didn't do this thing, that you look how you benefited from it. And look if the system in place still only allow you to benefit. Then if you really honestly want to help ... You start calling out those structural legislation and restrictions that continue to cause problems.

Ashley wrote: I don't think we are. That's not saying we should disregard the actions of our ancestors. Quite the opposite, we need to acknowledge and learn from those actions. But how can you be held accountable for something you had no say in?

Hmmm. Could you explain what you mean be held accountable in this instance?

Do indigenous writers deal with the white gaze and if so, what was the most challenging aspect of it?

Did you feel that you held back?

My Feminsm is

.... Strives for more information. More data. More facts and dates and context to why things are they way they are and if things have outlived their usefulness.
... Was forged in shame and pain and fear. This has hardened my resolve to seek an end to rape culture, domestic violence, and sexual abuse.
... Conservative. In both fashion choices and most policy. I believe that people should govern themselves, without government stepping in too often
....favors reproductive rights in the sense that my choice is not yours and I shouldnot dictate to you what to do with your body. And that the government should stay out of my body.
... mindful of the disabled community and the ridiculous ignorance or romanticization surrounding it..
.... Equality. That the burdens of patriarchy affect both women and men. Differently, yes. But still condems a person to ridgid standards based on biological gender. We have more facets to what makes us than can be defined by secondary sex traits
... Is aware and happy for all of our allies and wants to make sure they know they can add their voice, too. That this cause is so large that we need your help.
...is blessed with having a few awkward conversations instead of life threatening events. And is aware that I have a privledged life that has afforded me many abilities and decisions.
...doesn't begin to define all that is me. But it does color a lot of my perspectives
- is imperfect. My Feminsm is mine and not yours and that's ok. Call me out if I get too fanatical..
-is still forming and shaping as I learn more and more

Great article share Keith.

I like this passage "In the absence of explicit, widely-shared and enriching rites of passage, young men in particular are forced to make themselves up as they go along. Which usually means they put themselves together from spare parts, and the stuff closest to hand tends to be cheap and defective. And that’s dangerous."

That plays back to what you mentioned Florian. That if you want people to change a behavior you must be the first to show how it's done. Leading through demonstratration.

To me, part of the power of her book was to show how much damage she did while showing you that she is still a sympathetic person. I think it in turn asks you to look at the other villians in her story. Her abuser. Her family. Her tribe. Even white people.

Judgement is easy to pass.

But what happens after the verdict? How do you live with yourself after - both as the abused and the abuser? How do you make atonement?

I love how she talks about how her family all hated her abuser. And yet she would still talk to him. She hung his artwork up. And couldn't understand why there was a wedge between her and her family.

What happens when your judgement differs from the judgement of people closet to you?

How does testosterone affect business sense?

I can understand muscular development, even hair production. But negotiation? Strategy? Finance?

Pointedly, the vast majority of this violence is interracial, which is an anomaly in the U.S. Ninety-six percent of "Native women reported that their sexual assaults were interracial, whereas 91% of non-Hispanic white women reported their assaults were of the same race. The numbers for interracial attacks are similar for every type of violence that Indigenous women in the U.S. face: domestic violence, sexual trafficking, stalking, and murder. On some reservations, Native women are murdered at 10 times the national average."

https://theestablishment.co/trump-war...

Quick question...

What is the general approved name for the population? Indian? Native American? Indigenous people? First Nations?

Are there any in the above list that are strictly no-nos?

This is great. Thank you for adding it.

Jordan's run will be interesting to watch and I absolutely adore what Tallbear is working on..

I like that it touches on supposed allies too. How Elizabeth Warren, a feminist, claims first Nations heritage but yet does nothing to help the population or be part of the community. Much akin to what Eddo-Lodge's point that being a so-called supporter who doesn't actually help is as hurtful if not more than an all around naysayer.

Gerd wrote: "Men, it seems, need longer before they grow up enough to learn to share their emotions more freely.."

Is there anyway to help speed up that process?

So our definitions all match.

Millennials is the name given to the generation born from 1985-1999.

Any that were born in 2000- are now considered Gen Z.

So most Millennials are of marrying age....

This is a little bit old, but for more details on the Interior Department’s Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) in the US. But still very telling.

http://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/-/m...
https://www.hcn.org/issues/49.14/trib...

https://www.hcn.org/issues/50.6/triba... (For a more bipartisan look at the pervasive issues)

Great thoughts.

I read somewhere that a professor or releigious teacher asked their students what is marriage based on? Is it love/lust or based on choice?

Most students raised their hand saying that marriages are built on love/lust.

So the professor asked them all to research and come back. Some students asked older married relatives, some asked couples on the street.

Time and Time again the students found that long term marriages were based on a choice.

Everyday the couples asked themselves do I want to be here?

Lust can be quenched. Love fades. But the enduring commitment and dedication to your partner comes with the choice everyday that says yes I want to be here. I want to go through all the granduor and crap life can throw at me with you by my side. With your stinky morning breath and your cold toes and that annoying habit you constantly do.

But... Though I absolutely adore these ideas I myself am not married but happy in a committed long term relationship going on 11 yrs. I love my partner. I honestly don't feel the need to have the ring or the paperwork or the government intruding. If one day my choice is that I'm fed up of your stinky morning breath or your cold toes or that super annoying habit, I want to be able to walk away without having to go through the tedium of alerting the government..