Pam’s Comments (group member since Dec 29, 2016)

Pam’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

I recently just finished The Hate U Give. So I'll pull my review from there.
------

Powerful. A complex and emotional journey.

I also adore that this is young adult fiction. Thomas does not let age dictate the seriousness of her subject matter. Instead she trusts that her readers can understand the complexities of these real world issues.

Ooh two books! Excellent!

Thank you SamiJo! You are the first person I've met who lives there that has a different opinion.

I had a friend in highschool who lived there as a child and then my sister lives there while in the military. How much of what they experienced was part of their position in life?

I appreciate your counter point.

Thanks SamiJo.

I would be interested in pivoting to a larger issue on cultural tourism and cultural appropriation and then assimilation.

Krystal you brought up a great point about your culture's Moccasins. And I also never paid attention to the numerous kinds of chopsticks when I'm eating sushi. So thank you Winston for the crash course -DFTBA.

One of the most confusing parts of cultural appropriation, I think, stems from tourism.

- Getting a Lei in Hawaii
- Purchasing native art
- Purchasing Amish crafts
- Travelling to Caraibean Islands

Is this the culture sharing their aspects with you or is this a menial form of economic slavery put on a marginalized people?

- Native Hawaiians, I'm told, hate tourists. Absolutely dislike having to put on a show. But it's also something that helps bring in money so many don't actually stop taking the job.
- Are we even allowed to purchase native art if we are not a descendant of that nationality?
- Does this touch on what Mailhot was describing in her comments about being a native writer. That she was trying to be a writer. Not a hyphenated writer pushed into a specific category.

From Wikipedia:

The cheongsam is a body-hugging one-piece Chinese dress for women, also known as qipao.

Usually, people take the cheongsam as adapted from a one-piece dress of Manchu women in the Qing Dynasty. But debates on the origin of the cheongsam have never stopped in academic circles.

The third argument was raised by Bian Xiangyang (卞向阳) in his book An Analysis on the Origin of Qipao. Bian thinks that the cheongsam originates from neither the robe nor the chángpáo. It is an adaption of western-style dress during the Republic of China era when people were open to the western cultures. In his opinion, the cheongsam was a hybrid of traditional Chinese costumes and western costumes such as the waistcoat and one-piece dress.

My reaction is that:
a) this dress is not a religious or ritualistic symbol such as the bindi nor a tzitzit.
b) the function of the dress- specifically in this fabric - is to be worn at nice events. I.e. the girl was not using it to wash her dog or using it like a beach blanket
c) As others pointed it out, she wasn't using it to make fun of the culture itself. She was honoring it's legacy as being a stylish dress from the 1920's

I don't think this is cultural appropriation.

Another beautiful interview on Heart Berries from the On Being podcast/blog. If you're not familiar, On Being is a "conversation about the big questions of meaning in 21st century lives and endeavors — spiritual inquiry, science, social healing, and the arts. What does it mean to be human? How do we want to live? And who will we be to each other? Each week a new discovery about the immensity of our lives. Hosted by Krista Tippett."

https://onbeing.org/blog/kristin-lin-...

Hi all new members,

You've picked a great time to join as we're just about to start a new book.

Help decide what it will be by choosing in the poll linked below. The survey closes this weekend!
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Anastasia wrote: "Hello. My name is Anastasia.I live in Sydney, Australia. I have been a feminist for 39 years. In my life I have seen big changes especially in tn the area of work. Opportunities have opened up for ..."

You bring hope for the next generation. Thank you for pushing for these rights for all of these years.

Such great examples! Thank you!

Zachary wrote: "@Pam
I wonder though how women feel with men who are more emotional. Even in relationships.."

I'll admit, I don't know. The first time my SO had an emotional moment, a deeply emotional moment which sent him sobbing, was 7 years into our relationship. So I very much agree with you that there is so much pressure to bottle emotions up and then people don't know what to do with them. (Even writing this out feels like an invasion of his privacy)

I was honored that he opened up like that and also very remorseful that it didn't happen sooner. His expression is actually one of the reasons why I care so much about this topic. He is the most important person to me. And knowing that the world at large doesn't / can't handle that side of him is horrible.

Feminism teaches us that it's ok for women to dress whatever way she wants. To wear makeup or go bare faced if she wants. To work or stay at home if she wants. It's up to her to decide her life, not socialital expectations.

I really hope that feminism also says that it's ok for all people to express emotions; to decide for themselves if they want to share feelings or not. To make music playing whatever instrument they want without feeling like their gender is being questioned.

We're jumping alot and I think we're still trying to define what we mean so I want to bring us back in to look at the topic at thread

We created a culture that says men should not share emotions. Individuals of this group push to make sure that anyone emoting is denied male hood. Right? (Simplistic view)
Man= Don't share emotions
If you share emotions ≠ man

Toxic Masculinity is then taking that to the extremes. Pushing it's representatives to strive for more and more extreme measures to show how much of a male they are by denying more and more of their emotions. Save for traditionally acceptable ones like anger or lust.

If you share your feelings, if you share your thoughts, if you are kind and compassionate than;
- Your maleness is questioned
- Your sexuality is questioned (gay)

As simple as I've explained it in this post above, it's not a simple thing to correct as the concept of Friendzoning shows. Just sharing emotions carries with it cultural norms that are taught to one gender.

Man= Don't share emotions
Unless man is in a relationship, then he can share emotions.

Woman = Shares emotions
Woman = Shares deeper emotions with anyone she trusts

This is the generally accepted belief in the Western world, right?

I would add a few more descriptors to these concepts. Once again, keeping it to the restriction of emotional context

Man= Don't share emotions
Unless man is in a relationship, then he can share emotions.
Descriptors: Stoic. Reserved. Strong

Woman = Shares emotions
Woman = Shares deeper emotions with anyone she trusts
Descriptors: Compassionate, Giving, Nurturer

This of course doesn't touch on power. Doesn't touch on force. Just emotional expectations.

I think we, as feminists, get a lot of push back for acknowledging that women are more than just those emotional archtypes. We are more than mothers and givers. More than nurturers.

So does that mean.... that the standard of what applies to men is also... limited. Does that mean to the traditonalists who believe in upholding maleness as being "Man= Don't share emotions
Unless man is in a relationship, then he can share emotions.
Descriptors: Stoic. Reserved. Strong" that this is also... not the complete picture.

Domestic abuse for example. Yes, it has a violent component to it, but the real issue is the manipulation involved in keeping a relationship after beating your partner.

The above examples, were specifically when online in a connected world. You cannot rape a person because you probably don't live next to each other or even know the person irl, but can you still emotionally molest someone?

I think Benarji, please correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, is trying to say that we can still be different with different styles, approaches, and manners while still having the same rights as one another. We don't have to be 100% the same as the other gender in all circumstances to still be treated the same ways.

Great stuff everyone.

Already we are seeing:
- How our language forces gender on everything, specifically those with Romantic languages (el, la, le etc)
- How much the older generations and culture shape how the younger generation learn and react to social norms. And that the only way to halt toxic masculinity is to be a different example. Call yourself and others out on their actions.
https://www.themarysue.com/terry-crew...
- How sharing emotions can be seen as a different level of friendships depending on your gender and or culture. Boys share only in romantic situations, girls share with friends.

Great start and thank you for all those who shared articles and ideas.
-------------

I want to touch next on emotional manipulation

For while we can talk about men sharing their emotions, there is the darker flip side to this when they manipulate through emotions for personal gain.

In today's connected world there is no shortage of confrontations between the genders.
- Gamers loosing a match and shouting "I'm going to rape you." or "I'm going to rape your mother." This isn't structured for age only audiences, but children as young as 11 shouting this out. First because it's taboo, but then ingrained as it becomes the "normal" way to react.
- Beyond dating apps, online communities where as soon as your anonymous avatar is "outed" as being female your in-box will be spammed with unwanted dick pics.
- Coercion to get a date or a woman's number. Not accepting a no or multiple nos, pretty much forcing her to come up with an answer that suits the man's request. This force normally works best in real world. But in a connected world, an emotional manipulator will appeal to a woman's rationality. Holding a knife up to your wrist and saying "If you don't date me, I will kill myself" or other such stuff.

What's fascinating to me about this is that by playing on the emotions (fear, safety, sanity, and kindness) these instances are changing how women react.

No longer do women let this stuff go. We are no longer timid creatures who allow ourselves to get pulled into this mess. We are no longer interested in helping. We no longer feed their drama by responding when they threaten themselves. We no longer care what they do when we say no.

In short: we are becoming crasser, more assertive, and more aggressive.

- If emotion is typically a female trait, and females are no longer letting themselves be played or letting emotions be used against them, are we exhibiting more stereotypical masculine traits? Does this mean we are getting closer to equality?

- As more and more culture happens online, does the danger of real life violence lesson or increase?

- Is stalking less a crime in the digital age? We can have tributes to individuals, celebrities, ideas, but is there a line between being a fan and stalking?

- What structures can we put in place that will put an end to violence against women online?

Hey all! I don't know if you saw this, but I found this to be quite fascinating. Google put together an interactive #MeToo review.

1) You can see the timeline of events and stories across the globe
2) If you click on the cities you can pull up individual news stories or opeds about the movement.

All of this really shows how rampant this problem is, but also, on a more positive note how much we are all doing to call it out and end it for good.

https://metoorising.withgoogle.com/

Welcome Stephanie!

You'll find plenty to read and see here. We have a thread dedicated to books for young readers:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

A lot of great choices! Thank you for such a diverse list. I know one thing, even if my choice was not picked I have a lot of new titles to read on my own!

I think the answer to most of these is communication. Be it sexual, platonic, or familal relationships.

Knowing your partner, their joys and shames, dreams, desires, turn ons and turn offs is big. And let's be clear, this isn't some face book stalking stuff. I'm not talking about their favorite soda. Deep stuff. If you redeem this info by not talking to your partner, then you don't know them. If you treat this like a survey - a one stop shop for quick easy answers than you don't know them.

How do they like showing you that they love you? I recommend the cheesy but super helpful The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love that Lasts

(This is also why it's so hard for individuals dealing with trama or who are voiceless to have a good relationship. They cannot speak about their wants, desires, needs and often do what the other person wants. Your communication is as important as understanding what your partner is or isn't saying too)

So after communication what's the most important thing? Trust. People need to know you're not going to hurt them.

We have been subjegating what love is for a very long time. Marriage, divorce, sexual revolution, etc.

Well said.

Where does Humanism fit in with Equalism?