Jonathan’s Comments (group member since Oct 24, 2013)

Jonathan’s comments from the Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 group.

I enjoyed the 'astral tables' at Rivebelle as well. There was also the powerful image of two bouquets exchanging flowers as an analogy of how the diners were flitting between tables after the end of the meal.

And I wonder who the blonde woman is that the narrator takes a shine to? She's not known by Saint-Loup, which is odd as he seems to 'know' most of the woman at the party?

Renato: Before we started I thought I'd end up reading each book in about a week and wait for the next book to start. But I've ended up more or less reading each week on schedule. So, the schedule suits me as I find it quite a leisurely pace.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "I'm having the exact opposite reaction. I'm still enjoying it, but not as much as I did in the beginning. Probably a sign that I need to take another short break and read some other books before starting on the third volume. LOL! .."

I prefer Proust when there are characters interacting with the narrator; I then find it fascinating when he analyses all the ramifications of these 'external' interactions. What I find a bit of a drag is when he goes into the 'iloveherdoesshelovemeandwhatdoeslovereallymean' type of internal monologue that we had with Swann over Odette and the narrator over Gilberte. This is partly because nearly every 19th Century novel that deals with love deals with it in this way and it's a bit of a drag for me. I'm hoping that the Albertine 'affair' doesn't develop the same way.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "What's this? Do my eyes deceive me? A quote from this week's section: 'The girls eclipsed my grandmother'. After the previous week's reading this wouldn't have seemed possible..."

That was truly the most shocking sentence that I've read in ISOLT so far. I think his gran would be relieved though. :-)

Renato wrote: "I'm beginning to wonder if he'll ever be truly satisfied living outside of his own head. I guess we'll see how it goes with Albertine... ..."

I don't really identify with the narrator; but that's partly what I find interesting about ISOLT - it's a strange experience for me being in the narrator's head.

Over the two books I'm amazed at just how quickly the narrator is disappointed in something that he's looked forward to. I think he enjoys the anticipation of a pleasure more than the pleasure itself.

I'm quite sure that he'll quickly be disappointed with Albertine. :-)

That's great going Renalto. I haven't started this week's reading yet but I'm planning on finishing the book over the Easter weekend. I've enjoyed Vol. 2 so far; slightly more than Vol. 1.

Stephen wrote: "One of the things I told my boys was to assume that most of what they heard about sex was unreliable, packed with lies and exaggeration. Stories I heard, like Bloch's, used to make me, credulous as..."

Good advice, Stephen. Some people just can't help telling everyone just how great they are. I sometimes hear people tell stories of events in which I was present and I just don't recognise it; mind you, they'd probably make good novelists with such an imagination.

What's this? Do my eyes deceive me? A quote from this week's section: 'The girls eclipsed my grandmother'. After the previous week's reading this wouldn't have seemed possible.

Thanks Renato, I almost forgot about that.

Looking back at the passage in the Vintage version, Bloch states that Mme Swann is a 'professional who gave herself to me three times running, and in the most rarefied manner, between Paris and the Point-du-Jour.'

Mind you, this is Bloch bragging to his mates. Should we believe him?

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: " I really struggled with this week's reading - it kind of bored me because so little seemed to be actually happening... ..."

Oh, I really enjoyed this week's reading. I thought there was quite a bit of variety. It starts off with him ogling the girls on the seafront then we get the comic interlude with the lift-boy (I quite enjoy those) then he goes to the party with St Loup, eyes up the women there, makes contact with Elstir and gets home drunk. Goes to see Elstir and discovers that Elstir knows Albertine. For Proust this is action-packed! :-)

This week's section kicks-off excellently. We get the narrator watching on wistfully (and lustily?) at the gang of beautiful and raucous girls on the promenade. Especially good is the bit when one of them jumps over the 'old codger' sitting at the bandstand.

So, the sickly, sensitive narrator looks on at these lively, tough, and possibly 'lower class' of girls and wishes that he could join in with their antics. He wonders 'what must I have seemed like to her?' and admits that they apparently have nothing in common.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: ""...we seem then to absent ourselves for a few hours from Time..."
"...to have slept for any time is an even stronger narcotic..."
"...in which I could reach my watch and confront with its time tha..."

Er, I don't really know, Sunny. Are the examples all from this week's reading?

I've downloaded a free French edition for Kindle (bibebook edition) to compare. So for the first block of text from the original examples I gave, we have:

«Est-ce un coco vraiment étonnant, ce Bergotte? Est-il de la catégorie des grands bonshommes, des cocos comme Villiers ou Catulle? - Je l'ai rencontré à plusiers générales, dit M. Nissim Bernard. Il est gauche, c'est une espèce de Schlemihl.»

So, as far as I can tell (with my virtually non-existent French) the Penguin version matches the layout pretty closely, where the single quote just replaces the « symbols. But is this 'normal' French punctuation or is it 'experimental'? If it's normal then I would expect a translator to use normal English punctuation as a replacement, but if it is 'experimental' then I guess it's a bit more tricky - does the translator just repeat the original punctuation or try to find an equivalent 'unusual' style?

BTW I quite like experimental styles and punctuation, e.g. Céline, Hubert Selby, James Kelman are authors that spring to mind. When done well it can add greatly to the reading of a novel. I just don't like it when the sole purpose is to cause confusion when clarity is what is preferred.

Stephen wrote: "Pay attention to Bloch's sisters Many of these characters may seem like set-dressing in a Dickens story. but they can pop up 100s of pages later, usually after taking a turn in life. Those inevitab..."

Thanks for the warning Stephen. I'm starting to get the feeling that all the characters appear again at some point. I wonder if the lift-boy will appear again?

I really liked the Bloch's dinner party, but is it just me or did it seem quite Dickensian? Maybe it's just because Proust is actually including characters that aren't from the nobility.

Andree wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Ok, so I decided to read the Penguin translations instead of the MKE translation as the Penguin ones looked more readable. Before I switched I did notice that dialogue was indicate..."

It is odd, isn't it? Especially when they have a pair of single quotes that includes speech from one person, then a bit of text, then a bit of speech from someone else (indicated with a hyphen).

I think it's particularly annoying because I started to read the Penguin translation of 'Madame Bovary' today and it's in the same format - though not quite as bad.

Ok, so I decided to read the Penguin translations instead of the MKE translation as the Penguin ones looked more readable. Before I switched I did notice that dialogue was indicated with a hyphen (-) rather than the double quotes ("). Now this is a bit strange but I've seen this in a few translations, especially Penguin ones. So, I'm not sure, has there been some international agreement to do away with speech marks and to switch over to hyphens?

So what difference does it make? Am I being some old stick-in-the-mud? Possibly, but this is, in my opinion, where the Penguin translation fails terribly. Compare the MKE translation for some dialogue at Bloch's party in Vol. 2 (Vintage p.407-8, approx. p.482 in ML):

"Is he a really amazing cove, this Bergotte? Is he in the category of the great johnnies, chaps like Villiers and Catulle?"

"I've met him several times at dress rehearsals", said M. Nissim Bernard. "He's an uncouth creature, a sort of Schlemihl."

There was nothing very serious in this allusion to Chamisso's story, but the epithet "Schlemihl" formed part of that dialect, half-German, half-Jewish, which delighted M. Bloch in the family circle, but struck him as vulgar and out of place in front of strangers. And so he cast a reproving glance at his uncle.

"He has talent," said Bloch.

"Ah!" said his sister gravely, as though to imply that in that case there was some excuse for me.

"All writers have talent," said M. Bloch scornfully.

"In fact it appears," went on his son, raising his fork and screwing up his eyes with an air of diabolical irony, "that he is going to put up for the Academy."

"Go on. He hasn't enough to show them," replied his father, who seemed not to have for the Academy the same contempt as his sons and daughters. "He hasn't the necessary calibre."

Now this reads ok, we know who is saying what etc. And it's clearer on the page as it has the proper indents. Now compare this with the Penguin version (p.354):

'Is this Bergotte customer really an outstanding sort of a cove? I mean, is he one of your Villiers or your Catulles, really big customers like that? - I've met him, at a few first nights, said M. Nissim Bernard. He's awkward, a sort of Peter Schlemihl.' M. Bloch had nothing against this reference to the Count von Chamisso; but the mention of a word like 'Schlemihl' , though it belonged to the sort of semi-German, semi-Jewish dialect which delighted him within the family circle, he thought was vulgar and out of keeping when spoken in front of strangers. He shot a dark look at his uncle. 'He does have some talent, Bloch said. - Oh, I see, the sister replied, in a very sober voice, as though meaning that in that case I was to be excused. - All writers have some talent, M. Bloch senior said scornfully. - It's even being said,' said the son, brandishing his fork and screwing his eyes into a diabolically ironic expression, 'that he's going to present himself for election to the Académie française! - Oh, for goodness sake! The man's a light-weight!' replied M. Bloch senior, who seemed not to hold the Académie in such low esteem as his sons and daughters.

Is it just me, or is this a bloody mess? I just can't understand why they would deliberately avoid speech marks and then mix up hyphens and single quotes and then put it in a huge block of text. When I was reading it I had to refer to the Vintage version to work out who was saying what. And it's such a shame because if it were sorted out it would actually read better than the MKE version.

Renato wrote: "Do you guys recommend any book on the Dreyfus Affair? I have to confess I know absolutely nothing about it..."

Well I'm trying to decide between The Dreyfus Affair and The Affair: The Case of Alfred Dreyfus. But I'm not suggesting that it will be necessary to read this before reading Proust, it's just that as I'm already interested in the case it might be a good time for me to read about it. I'm sure that the Wikipedia article would give enough background material for most people.

I once knew someone who loved John Ruskin's work but it never really appealed to me, though it could be interesting to have a look at, as well as the Mme Sévigné letters.

I'm thinking of reading a book on the Dreyfus Affair soon as it's started to appear in this week's reading. It's probably not necessary in order understand ISOLT but I've read little pieces about it before and it's a fascinating topic; I also like Zola's work and of course Zola famously got involved in it.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "I picked her up a few days before that on the Zone railway, where, speaking of zones, she was so kind as to undo hers for the benefit of your humble servant; I h..."

Hi Sunny. A couple of weeks ago I decided to switch to the Penguin version after comparing sections and reading up about it. One of the websites I found that was useful was ReadingProust which actually compares the part that you quoted above. You may find it interesting.