Jonathan’s Comments (group member since Oct 24, 2013)

Jonathan’s comments from the Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 group.

Wow, what a convoluted sentence to start this week's reading - it starts off simply and then slowly entangles the reader. As I've mentioned elsewhere I've been comparing the MKE version with the Penguin version at some points and again the Penguin version is a lot clearer. I'm still not sure whether to switch over to the Penguin version at this stage as my initial intention was to read the MKE version partly to keep a consistency in my reading.

So we continue on for a couple of pages with Mme Swann's salon which is entertaining. BTW I find I largely ignore the weekly schedule breaks when I'm reading as they rarely fall at a logical point.

So, has the narrator given up on Gilberte or not? I'm not really sure that he's certain on this. At times, I get the feeling that he's read far too many Romantic novels and wants to suffer poetically; other times I feel that he's just a spoilt brat who expects everyone else to play along. I think what he really wants is for himself to go through the suffering of a poet over a lost love and for Gilberte to understand the great melancholy that he's going through and for her to approach him and to start the reconciliation process - then he can have everything his own way. Still, it's entertaining watching him engineer his own suffering - I expect most readers are just thinking 'just arrange to meet her you damn fool!' :-)

Meanwhile, Gilbert seems oblivious to his suffering and probably just thinks he's not interested.

The narrator's intentions are revealed, I believe, when he's writing a letter to Gilberte (p220 Vintage UK, c. p260 ML) and he's looking forward to a future date when he can reveal to Gilberte that he really did love her even though he won't actually tell her now when he's got the chance to correct the misunderstanding. He's enjoying being the masochistic Romantic too much.

So, this week's read ends with the narrator and Gilberte falling out as the narrator gives in to his nearly masochistic pleasures - he certainly appears to enjoy suffering in love.

Then we get Mme Swann's winter garden. I get the feeling that Proust really enjoys these - it's all chatter and gossip and observations on flowers, dresses and etiquette. The reader almost forgets that the narrator is still there as the women gossip, until Mme Swann turns to him and says something like 'isn't that so?' I can just imagine Proust at such a salon just soaking it all up.

The section where Bloch takes the narrator to the brothel just comes out of the blue. It's a bit out of place with the rest of the narrative but does it help us put an age to the narrator? Possibly sixteen/seventeen? Surely anyone younger wouldn't have frequented brothels, even in France. Or would they?

How do others find the analogies in Proust. Sometimes they're enlightening, other times amusing, other times just confusing and sometimes just crap.

An example of what is, IMO, a crap analogy, from page 148 (Vintage UK), c. page 175 in ML, is:

But genius, and even great talent, springs less from seeds of intellect and social refinement superior to those of other people than from the faculty of transforming and transposing them. To heat a liquid with an electric lamp requires not the strongest lamp possible, but one of which the current can cease to illuminate, can be diverted so as to give heat instead of light. To mount the skies it is not necessary to have the most powerful of motors, one must have a motor which, instead of continuing to run along the earth's surface, intersecting with a vertical line the horizontal which it began by following, is capable of converting its speed into lifting power. Similarly, the men who produce works of genius are not those who live in the most delicate atmosphere, whose conversation is the most brilliant or their culture the most extensive, but those who have had the power, ceasing suddenly to live only for themselves, to transform their personality into a sort of mirror, in such a way that their life, however mediocre it may be socially and even, in a sense, intellectually, is reflected by it, genius consisting in reflecting power and not in the intrinsic quality of the scene reflected.

In what way do the light and motor analogies help either the sentence before or after - n.b. I think it's supposed to clarify the following sentence but I'm not totally sure. Surely it's better if the lamp & motor sentences were just removed. Does anyone disagree?

I know that Proust carried out revision after revision even to the point of changing the proofs that came back from the printers so maybe this was an example of a late addition that seemed like a good idea at the time.

BTW whenever I come across really convoluted sentences such as the ones above I've been comparing them to the Penguin Grieve translation and every time the Grieve translation is more readable.

I've been re-reading some of this week's read. I didn't realise just how long Proust spent describing Bergotte; I think this is partly because it continues on from last week's read. It's interesting that the narrator starts off by analysing his physique, then his speech patterns and how it differs from his written style, then he compares his own impressions of Bergotte against Norpois's - Norpois's seems inferior; and he compares his initial impressions of Berma's acting against Bergotte's - the narrator's seem inferior.

I loved this whole section of Mme Swann's salon and the meeting with Bergotte as it seems to contain so much; the narrator is interacting with the Swann's, meeting his idol, discussing art and literature, getting confused with the etiquette, discovering new food (caviar) etc. By the time he leaves with Bergotte he's confident enough to tell him that he doesn't appreciate the intellectual life but prefers 'pure idleness' and only material desires interest him:

"No, Monsieur, the pleasures of the mind count for very little with me; it is not them that I seek after; indeed I don't even know that I have ever tasted them."

I think where Vol.2 is better than Vol.1 is that the characters are really starting to interact with each other. We get Bergotte's views on Norpois & Dr. Cottard, we get the narrator's parent's views on the Swanns, Dr. Cottard, Bergotte and so on. It has more of a dynamic view even though most of it takes place in drawing rooms.

This week's reading ends with the bit where the narrator meets Bergotte; he's so disappointed that he's not like a God. I like the bit about him not imagining the man from his work but from the man he would have thought he was an 'engineer' - how awfully common. :-)

Dwayne wrote: "I also found myself writing longer sentences recently, as well, which kind of made me laugh. In today's world of rapidly digested web content, that's not necessarily a virtue. (I'm in marketing and deal with content.)"

The funny thing is that I used to write long sentences when I was younger as it just seemed quite natural. But university, then writing emails, then writing text messages has forced me to write shorter and shorter sentences. It's got to such a point now at work that if I send an email I have to make sure it has one point, and one point only, as all subsequent points in the email will be ignored by the reader who has presumably got too tired reading it. I did consider starting to write Proustian emails just to deliberately confuse everyone - but I probably won't.:-)

I haven't thought if it quite like that Dwayne. But I have noticed that it's a form of exercise in concentration. More specifically, I now try to read one of Proust's sentences by taking note when he's making asides and try to keep track of his initial point so that when he returns to it I don't have to scan back to the beginning of the sentence. This was very difficult at first but it made me realise just how lazy my reading habits had become - essentially relying on the writer not to swerve off from the main topic within a sentence.

The other 'trick' that I've found is just re-reading a section a few days afterwards which helps clarify material that was difficult at the time. It's surprising how different the text is on a second 'sweep' through.

How are others finding Vol. 2?

Personally, I'm finding Vol.2 a lot easier to read than Vol.1, possibly because we're now familiar with some of the characters and there seems to be less jumping about in time and place - I quite liked the jumping about in Vol 1, it's just nice to be finding out more about the characters.

The narrator certainly seems difficult to please doesn't he? More disappointments in this section (for the narrator, not the reader); Bergotte doesn't quite live up to his books, he's getting bored with Gilberte and embarrassed by his parents. I guess he's just growing up!

He still seems to be besotted by Odette though. Both Swann and Gilberte have virtually disappeared in this section, with Swann literally just poking his head through the curtains at one stage.

Andree wrote: "I had a proustian moment, at yoga of all places. As we were in a twisted seating position, I found myself concentrating on a small window, pierced at floor level in the yoga studio. It overlooked ..."

You should've written a 3,000 page novel about it. :-)

It is smells that have a strange effect on me - they remind me of things in the past and I can't always 'place' them. Sometimes I 'remember' a smell and can't place it to anything or anywhere. I think music would have a similar effect if we didn't have the ability to record music.

Andree wrote: "But then, I doubt that any agreement will ever be reached as to what is the mission of the translator: to remain as faithful as possible to the original or to create a readable text in the language of translation? The discussion has been out for quite some time now. "

Yes translation is quite an art in itself and I don't think translators get praised enough. For the record, both the MKE version and the Penguin version are perfectly readable, it just looks like the Penguin version is more approachable.

I read Vol1 MKE and had no trouble with it; the convoluted sentences I accepted as Proust's style but I'm starting to wonder if Moncrieff accentuated it. I was intrigued in at least looking at the Penguin translation because I'd heard some bad comments about Grieve's translation. I'm not totally sure where I heard them, but I think this was mostly from people who read the Penguin Vol1 and didn't like the shift in style...perhaps!

When I read Vol1 I essentially read it twice - re-reading that week's material before moving on. I haven't done that with Vol2 because I've found it more straightforward; but whilst reading this week's quota I've found it handy being able to refer to the Penguin translation whenever I come across one of Proust's 'tricky sentences' - I may use this dual approach in future as I'm finding it quite useful. It's a bit like getting a second opinion when I start to doubt if I've interpreted the sentence correctly.

Is anyone reading the Penguin translations?

I decided to go for the Enright revisions of Moncrieff & Kilmartin (the MKE versions available in Vintage UK) but about a quarter of the way into Vol2 I'm curious and got the Penguin version from the library today. I was partly curious because Vol1 of the Penguin was generally praised and Vol2 was dismissed - can it really be so bad?

I'm not so sure...in fact it looks quite good. Compare the MKE opening sentence:

My mother, when it was a question of our having M. de Norpois to dinner for the first time, having expressed her regret that Professor Cottard was away from home and that she herself had quite ceased to see anything of Swann, since either of these might have helped to entertain the ex-ambassador, my father replied that so eminent a guest, so distinguished a man of science as Cottard could never be out of place at a dinner-table, but that Swann, with his ostentation, his habit of crying aloud from the house-tops the name of everyone he knew, however slightly, was a vulgar show-off whom the Marquis de Norpois would be sure to dismiss as - to use his own epithet - a "pestilent" fellow.

And the opening sentence in the Penguin edition by James Grieve:

When it was first suggested we invite M. de Norpois to dinner, my mother commented that it was a pity Professor Cottard was absent from Paris and that she herself had quite lost touch with Swann, either of whom the former ambassador would have been pleased to meet; to which my father replied that although a guest as eminent as Cottard, a scientific man of some renown, would always be an asset at one's dinner-table, the Marquis de Norpois would be bound to see Swann, with his showing-off and his name-dropping, as nothing but a vulgar swank, 'a rank outsider' as he would put it.

Now, to me, the Penguin one reads easier and clearer than the MKE version. It condenses the bit about 'shouting names from the house-tops' to 'name-dropping' - but then which one is closer to the original? But I preferred the 'pestilent fellow' in the MKE to the 'rank outsider' in the Penguin.

I may read and compare further sections but my first impressions is that the Penguin version is slightly better than MKE....hmmmm.

Andree wrote: "Proust can indeed be very funny and more than one study have been dedicated to humor in La Recherche. He was himself considered a great wit and it's no surprise that you find yourself laughing. T..."

And I've just read another passage that I found funny; this time it's the description of a minister (p97 in Vintage UK, est. p114 ML):

He had, what may be sufficient to constitute a rare and delicate whole, a fair, silky beard, good features, a nasal voice, bad breath, and a glass eye.

I especially liked the inclusion of bad breath.

I've only just started this week's Proust reading but I've enjoyed hearing about the narrator's ailments - I wondered when Proust would get round to this. I especially like this quote, commenting on Dr. Cottard:

And we realised that this imbecile was a great physician.

I'm surprised how often I find myself laughing when reading Proust.

Just make sure it's a sesquipedalian review.

Well, Within a Budding Grove kicks off well...we're straight into the narrator's family and we get alternative views of Swann, Odette & Cottard.

I found the overriding theme was the narrator coming to terms with disappointments: he finally gets to go to the theatre to see his beloved Berma - but her performance is not up to scratch; he's disappointed when Norpois criticises Bergotte as well as the narrator's attempts at writing; he's disappointed when Norpois doesn't mention him when at Mme Swann's; even his affections towards Gilberte seem to be cooling; he's even disappointed that he can't stand outside of Time. In short he's growing up, I guess.

My favourite word of this section is sesquipedalian.

midnightfaerie wrote: "oh i am so far behind... *sigh*"

Is it lack of time or are you finding Proust dull or difficult?

Alia wrote: "I did love how Proust connected the relationships between Swann and Odette to that of the narrator and Gilberte. It really pulled together the two story lines and made for a satisfying conclusion to "Swann's Way". "

I agree. For me the narrator (as a boy) obsessing over Gilberte started to blur with Swann's obsessing over Odette. It's quite creepy the way the narrator transfers his interest from Gilberte to people-who're-connected-to-Gilberte or to objects-connected-to-Gilberte when she's no longer around.

I liked the little section at the end - the little moan that 'things aren't what they used to be' like the bit about modern women wearing hats with all sorts of fruit & flowers on their hats as compared with the simple single flower when he was a lad. It's strange but I thought it was the other way round - I picture the clothes of c1913 as being simpler than those of c1880.

Tor wrote: "I like to think Mme Cottard is not simply making the stories up from thin air. "

I agree really, though she's probably exaggerating a bit! I don't see how it would have made her appear faithful to the Verdurins' group by praising Swann, quite the opposite I would have thought. I just guess that the Verdurins no longer saw Swann's influence as much of a threat

I think that Odette is faithful in a way - she is, after all, a courtesan, and she's playing a role. It's not her fault that Swann now believes her to be something she isn't - (view spoiler)[ until, that is, we find out that she marries him (hide spoiler)].

In an earlier post I said that it would be interesting to see things from Odette's p.o.v. Well, we almost get that when Swann meets Mme Cottard on the bus and we hear that Odette doesn't stop talking about Swann...but is she telling the truth?