Marc Lesser's Blog

Live What You See Not What You Know

In this episode of Mindful Leadership, Marc explores the theme “Live What You See, Not What You Know,” inspired by artist Ruth Asawa’s teaching and Zen philosophy. Marc begins with a guided meditation to help listeners settle in, then shares insights from his visit to the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art. Through personal stories, Zen teachings, and poetry, Marc encourages embracing curiosity, direct experience, and perspective-taking in daily life. Tune in for practical wisdom on living with openness, creativity, and mindful presence.

Support the podcast by donating at marclesser.net/donate.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[music]

[00:00:00] Marc: Welcome to Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, a biweekly podcast featuring conversations with leaders and teachers exploring the intersection of keeping our hearts open and effective action in these most uncertain and challenging times. Please support our work by making a donation at Marc lesser slash donate.

[00:00:37] Marc: This episode is called Live What You See, not What You Know, and we’ll begin with a short, uh, guided meditation just to help us settle and arrive. And from there, I, I share a short practice, something that jumped out at me when I was. At the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art recently, and I went to [00:01:00] see the Ruth Asawa exhibit.

[00:01:02] Marc: She instructs her students to draw. Draw what you see, not what you know. This simple directive reminded me of a simple, and I think profound zen or human instruction about. Living, living what you see, living with more directness and curiosity and wonder less about being in your head. It’s a way of opening doors.

[00:01:30] Marc: So let’s, um, but let’s begin with a short guided meditation and we’ll see. We’ll see what happens next. Uh, thanks for joining.

[00:01:48] Marc: Uh, let’s begin with a few minutes of sitting quietly together. And I’m gonna start by ringing my bell.[00:02:00]

[00:02:12] Marc: Yeah, the bell. It’s an invitation to stop, to pause.

[00:02:19] Marc: To, uh, let go of the busyness of the day. I’m remembering a, a phrase I recently came across from Suzuki Roshi who says that we all, we all have a lot of rubbish, a lot of rubbish in our minds, right? What, um, remembering to, to buy the coffee or like. Making an appointment with DMV or to do this or do that many, many things and these are all, you know, maybe important, but maybe not so much right now.

[00:02:56] Marc: Letting them go and [00:03:00] just being here. Just being here and with our breath and body hearts and mind.

[00:03:16] Marc: Yeah, just, uh, allowing, allowing the richness of the breath, the richness of, uh, our existence. What is it like to be here? What is it like to be alive? And nothing, nothing to accomplish or do or change, just.

[00:03:48] Marc: Breathing in and breathing out,

[00:03:59] Marc: you know, letting [00:04:00] you know thoughts, thoughts will come and go and great, great. That we notice. And, uh. Returning, uh, returning to the breath, returning to the body, but not, you know, not, doesn’t have to be neutral, can be with

[00:04:24] Marc: as much as possible a uh, a warm hearted. Warm hearted curiosity.

[00:04:38] Marc: Allowing and, uh, accepting ourselves. Whatever, whatever comes up, whether it’s grief or sadness, or joy, or patience or impatience, um, it’s all good. It’s all good here. Just noticing.[00:05:00]

[00:05:18] Marc: And leaning in, uh, leaning into the quiet, uh, to the silence. I wonder, you know, what will, what will arise out out of the silence?

[00:05:37] Marc: And no, no real effort required, and certainly no extra effort just being here.[00:06:00]

[00:06:03] Marc: And I am, I’m gonna ring my bell. This bell doesn’t feel like my bell. I’m not sure where this bell comes from. I’ve had it a long, long time, and it’s. Feel like my, my, uh, job is to take care of it, gonna bring it, to make a possible transition. You’re welcome to keep sitting or come join me in whatever’s, whatever’s next.

[00:06:52] Marc: So live what you see, not what you know. Now. This is the, uh, [00:07:00] topic of this, uh, next, uh, bit of time together. And, and this comes from, uh, I recently went to the. Uh, the Museum of Modern Art in downtown San Francisco, where I saw the, uh, Ruth Asawa, uh, exhibit, uh, Ruth Asawa, uh, is, uh, amazing, uh, revered artist who had a way of turning ordinary objects into artwork.

[00:07:31] Marc: Uh, there’s a, there’s a great, a large photograph, uh, on the wall of this exhibit of, it’s a photograph of her living room and. It’s, uh, her and, uh, four young children, and there’s just art objects everywhere. You know, just sim simple, you know, newspaper and blocks and painting and paintbrushes and just all spread out.

[00:07:59] Marc: And, [00:08:00] and this, you can feel the sense of creativity and joy and, and on the wall next to one of her. Pieces of art was, she says she instructs her students to, uh, draw, draw what you see, uh, not what you know. And when I saw this, I was captivated and I thought, oh, this is, this is a great zen practice or human practice, right?

[00:08:31] Marc: Um, and I, I kind of took draw and made it. Live. Live what you see and not what you know. Right. So this is, I think, a teaching and encouragement to, to get out of our heads and to be in our bodies, uh, to get out of, uh, kind of intellectualizing and, you know, which it’s important to intellectualize. It’s an important, maybe it’s the, [00:09:00] uh, the scientific mind that wants to.

[00:09:05] Marc: Wants to live and see beyond, beyond what we can just see. And that’s important. But this is a, this is another way of being in the world, another way of being of, uh, seeing everything as fresh and new and this aspiration, I think, to, to see, uh, more clearly. Right. So this, uh, this zen vow, this vow that comes from Buddhism, you know, delusions are inexhaustible.

[00:09:33] Marc: Uh, I. Uh, vow to end them. You know, there’s a, an image, an image from the zen world is that we, humans are, we’re like frogs at the bottom of a well looking up, right? It’s a great image of frog at the bottom of the well looking up, and we, we only see a small slice of the world. We know, we know that there’s this whole big, giant world out [00:10:00] there, but we can only see a small, a small part of it.

[00:10:03] Marc: And that’s, you know, that’s our, uh, that, that that’s what it’s like, you know, to be human right. We we’re often, we’re often very curious about other people’s motivation or other people’s experience. Well, it’s hard to even know our own. Even to know our own motivation or to, to, uh, this feeling of opening, opening up the doorway to our own hearts and mind.

[00:10:36] Marc: You know, a zen teacher, Dogan is a great expression where he says, you know, when you’re out, when you’re out in the middle of the ocean and you look around, the ocean looks round. But he says, uh, the ocean is not round. And, and he, he, he does some, uh, some beautiful, uh, metaphors, fish to a fish. The ocean is a jewel, you know, or [00:11:00] to a dragon.

[00:11:01] Marc: The ocean is, you know, is a, is a home in which to course through and I mean, it’s a great, you know, it’s a great image, right? Being in the middle of the ocean, it looks, it looks round. Wherever, you know, we look at a, uh, the other day I was actually, uh, camping in the Trinity Alps with some friends, and I was sitting next to a beautiful, beautiful mountain lake and there was a gorgeous tree, tree trunk that I was sitting next to, and the base of this tree trunk, it had like five or six big parts of the trunk that were all.

[00:11:44] Marc: Beautifully gorgeously, uh, going down into the, some half of them seem to be going right into the earth and the other half seem to be going down into the lake. Uh, ’cause this tree was perched right on the edge. And [00:12:00] I, I couldn’t help wonder how, how, how does this happen? How does this tree, uh, know to do this?

[00:12:06] Marc: And, and when I got home, I, um, I plugged into, um. To chat GPTI said, what is happening with a tree that is outside of my experience? What am I not seeing? Right? I wanted, I, I wanted to see, you know, this is, this is like, well from, you know, it looks, it, it looks, this tree looks like nothing’s happening. It’s completely, it looks frozen.

[00:12:37] Marc: But it’s not frozen. And, and what chat GPT answered me is there are many, many wondrous things happening in this tree that you’re not aware of. You know, the tree is growing and dividing and there’s photosynthesis and, and it listed like five or six different categories of all of the life [00:13:00] and activity of this tree that is, uh, beyond.

[00:13:05] Marc: What we think we know. And I think this is the kind of seeing that Ruth Asawa is encouraging us to see beyond just the, the surface, right? To be curious about what’s happening. And of course, you know, the same is true in our own, um, bodies and minds. Maybe even, um, as complex or perhaps even more complex than all of what’s happening inside of a tree.

[00:13:37] Marc: Our own, uh, our own feelings, our own motivations, our bodies, bodies, uh, and minds.

[00:13:49] Marc: There’s a, uh, a beautiful, um. Quote, uh, from Zen Teacher Suzuki about, [00:14:00] um, what I think of as this, this same practice, this practice of, uh, generosity and, and he says, every existence in nature, every existence in the human world, every cultural work that we create is something which was given or is being given to us.

[00:14:23] Marc: So this is again, another way of, um, accepting reality. Seeing reality beneath the surface to see that, you know, uh, these, I think of these hands that we think of as my, I don’t own these hands. I don’t own this body and mine. It was gift, it was given, given to me. Your body and mind given to you. Everything, the air that we breathe, the sky, right?

[00:14:52] Marc: So this first, the first part of this quote, uh, the first part, this quote is quite [00:15:00] beautiful. But then, uh, this is, I, I feel like, um, Zen teaching, Zen practice has a way of, uh, setting us up and then pulling the rug out from under us. In a good way. In a good way. So after he says, right, everything was given to us, then he says, but.

[00:15:18] Marc: As everything is originally one, we are in actuality giving out everything right as everything is originally one. So this is a statement of the statement of oneness or emptiness or lack of separation. It’s a profound and beautiful, and he says it so simply, but. Right as everything is originally one, we are in actuality giving out everything.

[00:15:55] Marc: Right? Moment after moment we are creating something. Yeah. What a, [00:16:00] what a beautiful, beautiful statement, and I think a beautiful description of reality and how things actually are right, that everything was given to us. Everything is originally one, and therefore we are, uh, creating something. And then to cap it all off, he says, and this is the joy.

[00:16:28] Marc: This is the joy of our life. This is the joy of our life. So he, you know, and Zen has a way of, uh, this distinction. Somewhat artificial, but important distinction, you know, small mind and big mind. So he’s taking us, you know, this is, this is a, I think, a beautiful expression of Big Mind, right? Big Mind says, realizes that everything was given to us.

[00:16:56] Marc: Everything is originally one, and [00:17:00] we are moment after moment. Everything we do is an act of creation and creativity, and this is the joy of our life. Uh, but this, um, this is true when we’re, uh. Writing emails or washing the dishes or, uh, go, going to get our driver’s license renewed, which I happen to be doing today.

[00:17:26] Marc: It’s on my mind. So that’s my part of my aspiration, right? I can, I can go down to the DMV, you know, just waiting to be frustrated, waiting for the long lines. The, but, or I can go down with a much more sense of, uh. Acceptance and creativity. And just to be curious, you know, to be curious about what’s gonna happen, how, uh, how will I be met there?

[00:17:54] Marc: How can I, how can I bring my own, uh, big mind [00:18:00] as much as I, as much as I can. There’s a ano another, um, another beautiful statement by a Zen teacher, Dogan, you know, the. Founder, one of the founders, early, early founders of a Zen in Japan in the 13th century. And, um, this is how he begins, uh, an essay that he wrote called, um, instructions for Meditation.

[00:18:31] Marc: And he says, uh, the way is basically perfect and all pervading. How could it be contingent upon practice and realization the whole body is far beyond the world’s dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? What is the use of going off here and there to practice? So anyhow, he’s, maybe it’s a long-winded way of saying [00:19:00] similar to, uh, you know what Shinu Suzuki just said, you know, since we’re all one, we’re all one.

[00:19:07] Marc: Everything is, uh, perfect just as it is. Why, why, why practice? Why is there a need for practice? Uh, but then he, uh, answers his own statement with, um, and these are, these are two, I think, uh, wonderful profound words, uh, from Zen. And yet he then says, and yet, and yet, if there is the slightest discrepancy. The way is as distant as heaven from Earth, if the least like or dislike arises, the mind is lost in confusion.

[00:19:47] Marc: Right. And yet, and yet I think there’s a lot of, uh, power in this and yet Right. Uh, to see and yet, uh, as a way in seeing differently [00:20:00] this, and yet I think gives us, uh, some insight into seeing. With greater confidence and greater humility, you know, this and yet could describe our lives, right? Things are great, and yet there’s so much suffering.

[00:20:18] Marc: Uh, things are bad, and yet, right? There’s so much goodness, so much beauty. Uh, there’s so much to do, and yet, you know, why not, uh, stop and enjoy and appreciate this moment, and, and I think in some way. All of this can be, uh, under the heading of live what you see and not, uh, not what you know, live, what you see and not what, you know, there’s some poems, um, that also come from the, uh, zen world, uh, on the same, same topic, you know, just another other ways of.

[00:20:59] Marc: Some [00:21:00] getting at or trying to, uh, hold onto and understand or, and live this, uh, live what you see, not what you know. And this poem says, when the wind stops, flowers fall. When the bird sings, uh, the mountain becomes more calm. Right. So, you know, uh, the flowers are, uh, not, they’re, they’re supposed to fall, not when the wind stops.

[00:21:31] Marc: And, uh, when the bird sings, why, why is the, why does the mountain become more calm? But this is, this is the reality of the way things are not how we know them or how we want them to be. So this is, I. I’ve been speaking about this recently as I think maybe the, a practice of, uh, perspective taking, uh, [00:22:00] practice of, uh, perspective taking, which I think is one of the vastly, uh, important, uh, missing elements today in our, in our, uh, political discourse, but really in all parts of our lives.

[00:22:16] Marc: Um, being. Curious, being curious about other people’s perspectives. Being curious about our own perspective, right? Our own perspective. The, the ocean is not round and like a frog looking up, right? So having a, a, a limited, uh, a limited perspective on things and aspiring, aspiring to, uh, to see. Clearly, uh, more widely.

[00:22:45] Marc: I think I’m gonna, uh, conclude here with a short poem, which is really a poem I think about this practice. And I, I do think of it as a practice of a perspective taking [00:23:00] practice of living what we see, not what we know. Uh, maybe the practice of the, uh, the courage to. Allow for the, and yet, and yet, you know, whatever, whatever conclusion that we might be, uh, drawing espec, especially any, any limited conclusion that we might have about our own, our own success or failure or other people’s motivations.

[00:23:30] Marc: And this poem is called Things To Think by, uh, Robert Bly. Think In Ways You’ve Never Thought Before. If the phone rings, think of it as carrying a message larger than anything you’ve ever heard. Vast than a hundred lines of Yates. Think that someone may bring a bear to your door, maybe wounded and deranged, or think that a moose [00:24:00] has risen out of the lake and he’s carrying on his antlers.

[00:24:03] Marc: A child of your own whom you’ve never seen. When someone knocks on the door, think that he’s about to give you something large, tell you you’re forgiven, or that it’s not necessary to work all the time, or that it’s been decided that if you lie down, no one will die. Yeah. So some things to think. Yeah. This, um, practice of, uh, live what you see.

[00:24:36] Marc: Uh, not, uh, what, you know, everything has been given to us and since everything is one, uh, we are, we are giving, we are creating. Thank you.

[00:24:59] Marc: I hope you’ve [00:25:00] appreciated today’s episode. To learn more about my work, you can visit Marc lesser.net. And if you’re interested in enrolling in a self-directed course called Seven Practices of a Mindful Leader, please visit Marc lesser courses.thinkific.com. This podcast is offered freely and relies on the financial support from listeners like you.

[00:25:26] Marc: You can donate at marclesser.net slash donate. Thank you very much.

[END OF AUDIO]

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Every Day Is A Good Day

In this episode of Mindful Leadership, Marc delves into the timeless Zen story emphasizing how we can navigate life’s challenges and opportunities without avoiding difficulties. The episode begins with a guided meditation to center ourselves, followed by an insightful discussion on the Zen teaching that every day is a good day. Marc shares personal anecdotes and reflections on how this philosophy has influenced his journey as a mindfulness teacher. Tune in to explore how embracing a mindset free from judgment and comparison can transform your daily life. Support the podcast by donating at marclesser.net/donate.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[music]

[00:00:00] Marc: Welcome to Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, a biweekly podcast featuring conversations with leaders and teachers exploring the intersection of keeping our hearts open and effective action in these most uncertain and challenging times. Please support our work by making a donation at Marc lesser slash donate.

[00:00:36] Marc: Hi, this is Marc Lesser, and welcome to Mindful Leadership. Today’s episode is called Every Day is a Good Day. We’ll start with a short guided meditation, and then I’ll share a brief traditional Zen story about a dialogue between a. A teacher and a group of students in which the teacher asks about, what do you have to [00:01:00] say about yesterday?

[00:01:01] Marc: What do you have to say about tomorrow? Anyhow the teacher’s response is, every day is a good day. And it’s a sense, it’s a different way of relating to our challenges and opportunities without without avoiding difficulty, but also without avoiding all of the. Wonders of life. I hope you enjoy this episode.

[00:01:28] Marc: Let’s begin with a few minutes of doing some sitting practice, and I’m gonna ring my trustee Bell to get us started.

[00:01:59] Marc: And so the [00:02:00] invitation is to arrive to bring yourself here noticing, noticing what it’s like to be here alive. Breathing,

[00:02:18] Marc: Letting go as much as possible of the activities of the day and nothing to achieve, right? Just that that attitude can be supportive and transformative. Nothing to achieve. Nothing needs to be added on or changed right now. How does, how might that feel? How would it feel in the body to be

[00:02:51] Marc: safe? Satisfied, connected, deeply connected with yourself and with [00:03:00] everyone and everything.

[00:03:05] Marc: Can you feel it?

[00:03:09] Marc: It’s just about letting go of our usual judgements and comparisons.

[00:03:33] Marc: I’ve been turning this zen, little zen poem. When the wind stops, flowers fall. When a bird sings, the mountains become more calm. Right When the wind stops, flowers fall. So flowers fall. Whether there’s wind or [00:04:00] not. We can hear, we can feel the quiet and calm, whether it’s quiet and calm or not.

[00:04:09] Marc: Sometimes the the contrast can be helpful to us. I.

[00:04:25] Marc: Yeah. So right now, dropping in finding, finding your own ground, your heart, noticing whatever it’s like to be here alive breathing.[00:05:00]

[00:05:03] Marc: I think of this part of a Mary Oliver poem, right? This is what I was born for to look, to listen. To lose myself and to find myself inside this soft world this this practice. Simple timeless, just breathing.

[00:05:57] Marc: Just appreciating the quiet. And [00:06:00] this morning I’ve also been appreciating the dogs barking. Airplanes flying overhead.

[00:06:14] Marc: Sometimes I can hear the train in the distance. But just noticing how beautiful these sounds can be. Are they interruptions or are they here to support us?

[00:06:42] Marc: Again, breathing in, I’m noticing that I’m breathing in and breathing out. I notice that I’m breathing out.

[00:06:56] Marc: So as a way of ending, I’m gonna ring, ring my bell, but do [00:07:00] feel free to continue sitting or join me for as I make this shift in gears here.

[00:07:29] Marc: So I wanna talk about one of my favorite Zen stories, little Zen parables, which is every day is a good day. And I can picture this revered Zen teacher looking out over his group of students, maybe hundreds, maybe thousands of students in a field somewhere in China. And, he looks out over the over them.

[00:07:49] Marc: And he does this in a very challenging, challenging way. He says I’m not talking about, what happened yesterday and I’m not talking about what might happen [00:08:00] tomorrow. What is it that you what do you say? What do you say? And no one knew how to respond to this.

[00:08:08] Marc: And they were all silent. And he looks over and he says every day is a good day. Every day is a good day. And this somehow, this particular phrase has come down, thousands of years as a teaching story. And of course, every day has its ups and downs, has its surprises, has its positive things and negative things.

[00:08:28] Marc: There’s always the question do we have enough? Am I enough? How’s my life going? How’s my relationships? My work? The world is a mess, right? So we can’t help it, right? We can’t help it. We live in the world of comparison in the world of judgment. But, of course, zen practice, which is really this human practice offers us this other way.

[00:08:52] Marc: Another way is where we can let go. We can actually live and be outside [00:09:00] of the world of comparison and judgment and beyond. Is it enough or not enough? And this is the every day is a good day. And it, so it’s not about, it’s not about ignoring or avoiding anything, but, and this this story, this sense story reminds me of a time.

[00:09:20] Marc: Many years ago when I was designing a program to train mindfulness teachers and I asked a friend and mentor for some ideas on what elements he thought should be included in this training. And and the aim was to train these teachers to be more present and confident and the competence to work with groups of business leaders and to be able to teach meditation practice.

[00:09:47] Marc: And mindful leadership, and I was surprised at what my friend suggested. He said that you should design an ordeal, give them something that at first might seem [00:10:00] impossible. And I was surprised at hearing this word ordeal. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that. I had gone through my own ordeal in order to gain more confidence as a mindfulness teacher.

[00:10:17] Marc: I was finding myself standing in front of groups of Google engineers. People thought I was much more experienced than I was, but really I was new and learning, and it was quite the ordeal and how much I often felt like an imposter in those early days of standing, in front. I Google headquarters in Mountain View, leading meditations and mindfulness practices for really bright achievement oriented engineers.

[00:10:47] Marc: And even though I had a good deal of meditation experience, I really didn’t have all that much experience in teaching meditation and being in, in front of business people. So this was this my [00:11:00] own ordeal. Was really Im important and in some way our lives. We can’t help face the ordeals of whether it’s raising children or our jobs.

[00:11:10] Marc: Reading the newspaper can be an ordeal these days, and it’s easy to get caught by the day-to-day enough or not enough good or bad imposter or not imposter. And what if what if you. Today, what if today you have everything you need? What if today? Every day is a good day. Every day is a good day.

[00:11:36] Marc: Thank you.

[00:11:46] Marc: I hope you’ve appreciated today’s episode. To learn more about my work, you can visit Marc lesser.net. And if you’re interested in enrolling in a self-directed course called Seven [00:12:00] Practices of a Mindful Leader, please visit Marc lesser courses.thinkific.com. This podcast is offered freely and relies on the financial support from listeners like you.

[00:12:13] Marc: You can donate at marclesser.net slash donate. Thank you very much.

[END OF AUDIO]

The post Every Day Is A Good Day appeared first on Marc Lesser.

Relax Into Your Creativity with Ruth Ozeki

In this episode, Marc speaks with acclaimed novelist, filmmaker and Zen Buddhist priest Ruth Ozeki about her journey into Zen practice and her life as a writer. Ruth shares how her grandfather sparked her interest in meditation, her transition from Tibetan Buddhism to Zen, and how Zen helped her overcome writer’s block. They explore themes of timeless being, selflessness, and creativity, and how her spiritual path continues to shape her writing process.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Marc: Ruth, it’s such a treat to get to be here with you.

[00:00:02] Ruth : Yeah. Thank you, mark. Thanks for inviting me.

[00:00:06] Marc: Yeah. So I I, I don’t know that I’ve ever heard from you your, what I think of as the origin story. How did you come to be practicing Zen?

[00:00:18] Ruth : Yeah, well. I mean, the origin story story really is kind of an origin story, , because, , my, my mother’s Japanese and my Japanese grandparents were both Zen practitioners.

[00:00:31] Ruth : They were both meditators. And I only met my grandfather once when I was three years old. And my first encounter with him I, I, it’s my first memory as a, as a little human being, , they had arrived at night and they had they were sleeping in my parents’ bedroom. And so I woke up in the morning and went to the kitchen and my mother told me to go wake them up and, and tell them to come to breakfast.

[00:00:59] Ruth : [00:01:00] And so I went to the bedroom and, I remember, ’cause , one of the memories is of reaching up for the doorknob right? To open the door. And I, so I opened the door and I. Took a step into the room and confronted this man who was sitting on the floor cross-legged on the floor, and, this was in East Haven, Connecticut, and grownups didn’t sit on the floor.

[00:01:24] Ruth : That it just, that’s not what grownups did. And so I was really, , startled and and he had his eyes closed and his legs crossed and he was rocking, sort of slowly back and forth. And when he heard me, he opened his eyes, right? And he looked right at me. Right? So there was this like moment of like direct eye contact, right?

[00:01:46] Ruth : And , and of course I was terrified, right? So I went running back out to the kitchen and I think I must have, I told my mother and. What I remember, and I think this was just the

[00:01:56] Ruth : story that she used to tell me, was [00:02:00] that she didn’t use the word meditating ever. She, she said that he was doing breathing exercises, and, . And, she had, she didn’t really know that much about it. She wasn’t raised Buddhist herself. She was, , raised in Hawaii and, uh, the community there was a more Christian community, so she didn’t really know that much about Zen. But in any case, that was my first encounter and it was kind of, , face to face.

[00:02:22] Ruth : Sort of one of those face-to-face transmission moments. And, , but then, I think I was, , it was the 1960s, so I was really interested in, , everybody was meditating and, so when the Beatles started meditating, so did I, and , I didn’t know how to do it or what I was doing.

[00:02:38] Ruth : But I, I, I was like nine, 10 years old maybe, and would sit on the floor in front of a candle and stare at the flame and think that I was meditating. And, . And then I think when I was 14 I was initiated, , I got my transcendental meditation, , mantra. So I did that for a while. Much later.

[00:02:58] Ruth : I mean, I kind of had this off [00:03:00] and on meditation practice, but in my. Late thirties, I started practicing Tibetan Buddhism and did that for several years and then, , moved to the West Coast and then finally. I, , I sort of lost touch with the Tibetan Sangha and I was here on Cortez and, , Norman Fisher came, uh, for a workshop called Compassion in Action, and he he had a, he had a back injury.

[00:03:31] Ruth : There were several other teachers who had come to, and he had, he had, , a, , herniated disc or something in his back, and he didn’t wanna come. He tried to cancel, but, , the organizers kind of were pressuring him to come and they said, , if you come, we’ll give you, , somebody will take care of you.

[00:03:46] Ruth : Right. And so they gave me that job. , My job was to take care of this man, Norman, Norman Fisher, who I’d never heard of before. , I was still more aligned with the Tibetan teachers and, . So I took care of him for like five days or something like [00:04:00] that. And, just drove him around and, and we got to know each other and it was, , it was just this lovely kind of friendship that, , started that this way.

[00:04:09] Ruth : And when, , when he left, I knew that he was going to do a shin, which I didn’t, I didn’t know what a sine was, but he was going to do a retreat. And so when, when we parted, I gave him a copy of my first novel, which. , I knew he was a, a writer. And it had just been published, , maybe earlier that year, and he gave me a maah, right?

[00:04:30] Ruth : And so we exchange, we exchanged gifts and then parted. And then three weeks later, four weeks later, I got a little package in the mail and it was a cassette tape and it was a Dharma talk. Unlabeled. It was a dharma talk that he, I realized that he had given at this shin, which was in Bellingham and. In the talk he, he talked about how he had met, he had just been to this conference and he had met a real live Bodhi Sattva.

[00:04:59] Ruth : And he talked [00:05:00] about how this Bodhi Sattva had driven him around the island and taken care of him, right? And then he said, and then he said something like, , and this Bodhi Sattva is a novel. And she gave me a copy of her novel. And so since my job is to entertain you all this week, I’m gonna read a chapter of her novel to you.

[00:05:18] Ruth : And he did, he read, he read this chapter from the novel and he read it so beautifully and it was, he read it in a way that made it so funny, right? And everybody was laughing and I just thought. This obviously is my teacher. Anybody who can read my work, and get this much of a reaction from a crowd, this, , this is it, right? Yeah. And so that’s, I started showing up for Shin and that was my introduction to Zen. So it was, I started out with my grandfather from Japan and then ended up with, , a teacher who’s, , a Jew from, , Pennsylvania, right?

[00:05:50] Marc: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That’s great.

[00:05:52] Marc: I love the story. And just to fill in, so. People listening might not realize that. Uh, you are talking about, uh, [00:06:00] Cortez Island, British Columbia.

[00:06:01] Ruth : That’s right.

[00:06:02] Marc: Holly. Holly Hawk.

[00:06:03] Ruth : That’s right.

[00:06:03] Marc: And, and, uh, and Norman Fisher. I I, I actually first met Norman. We were students. We were students together.

[00:06:11] Marc: Tasajara back in the, way back in this, yeah. Late seventies.

[00:06:15] Ruth : Yeah. Yeah. ,

[00:06:16] Marc: Yeah. And Norman, I was ordained. I was ordained as a priest by, by Norman.

[00:06:21] Ruth : Right. That’s right.

[00:06:22] Marc: So I’m, I’m now, so many things I want to ask you. I, I wanna, I do wanna ask you your origin story as a, as a writer as you were, uh, that’s simple as, as you were describing.

[00:06:34] Marc: You, you, I’m sure you don’t know this, I’m often reading a piece that you wrote. It starts with the zen nun, Chico Ya. Satani once told me in a dream that you can’t understand. What it means to be alive on this earth until you understand the time being.

[00:06:52] Ruth : Yeah.

[00:06:52] Marc: I love, I love that. I love that. That’s

[00:06:55] Ruth : from, isn’t that the, it’s one of the appendices from, uh, A Tale for the time being.

[00:06:59] Ruth : Right?

[00:06:59] Marc: [00:07:00] Exactly. It’s one of the appendices. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And that, and yeah. So the, I’m also, I’m assuming is, was, . Is all over creation your first novel?

[00:07:10] Ruth : No, my year of meats. Oh, my year of meat meats

[00:07:13] Marc: that

[00:07:13] Ruth : came,

[00:07:13] Marc: that

[00:07:13] Ruth : came first. That’s right. That was the first one that right.

[00:07:17] Marc: Uhhuh. Which I know.

[00:07:19] Marc: I was, , I was tickled to learn that my, my daughter had. No known of you before I knew of you through, through having, having read that book.

[00:07:27] Ruth : Yeah. That was the first one. That was in 1998, I think. Uhhuh. Yeah.

[00:07:32] Marc: So origin story with you as a writer. Yeah,

[00:07:34] Ruth : I mean, it, it’s, that’s easy. , I, I started writing when I learned how to hold a pencil and, , , and I never stopped.

[00:07:43] Ruth : It just was always what I love to do. And, , I always felt that I could. I could think better with a pencil in my hand or a pen in my hand. So in a way I think writing and thinking became different [00:08:00] aspects of the same thing. , When I was a little kid, I I was an avid reader and what I loved were, , I loved, thick, juicy novels.

[00:08:08] Ruth : Mm-hmm. And, , and I really wanted to write novels, but , again, it was a. , I, I guess I was growing up in, in, on the East coast, there weren’t a lot of Asian Americans around. I, I didn’t really have a cultural context that. It led me to think that I could write novels. , And so, I remember thinking, like, people who look like me don’t write novels, so, what do they write?

[00:08:33] Ruth : And, , and, and of course, , it was more things like haiku, right? And so I remember at, I went through this period where I thought, okay, well I’m, I’m, I’m gonna write Haiku, but I’m not, as you can tell, I’m a very verbose person, right? So, . 17 syllables doesn’t quite cut it right.

[00:08:49] Ruth : And so, , but I, I tried, at first I wrote a lot of poetry. Right? And then little by little, I mean, ’cause when I was a kid, , there weren’t any Japanese American novelists [00:09:00] or, at all. I think Amy Tan didn’t publish Joy Luck Club until, , I was in my thirties, right? So I just didn’t, there was no precedent for, for, this person that I wanted to be.

[00:09:12] Ruth : But in any case, I, , it was always drawn to the longer form fiction and, , and I tried writing short stories in college and, and, , and then tried writing novels several times after that. And, but never really, never really knew how, or, , it hadn’t really come together. I, I couldn’t. I didn’t know how to do it right.

[00:09:33] Ruth : And so then I got into the film business and, , and so I was hired to make, and to direct and edit at films. And it was really editing images was where I learned to write. It was, , editing television. Where you have to, you have to be very succinct and you have to get to the point very quickly.

[00:09:51] Ruth : And, , and really, and, and , you’re just relying on visuals to tell a story. And that was really what did it for me. And after that [00:10:00] I suddenly realized I, I know how to do this now I know how to write a novel. And so I wrote my year of meats and , and that was the first one, and I’ve never looked back.

[00:10:10] Marc: That’s great. That’s great. I often describe, uh, a tale for the time being as, , maybe my favorite novel. I, I don’t, I don’t read, I, I mostly read nonfiction.

[00:10:22] Ruth : Yeah.

[00:10:23] Marc: Although at the, I, I find myself now reading more and more novels, but I when I, I think I read the first, I don’t know, three pages or five pages of a tale for the time being, and I was just so.

[00:10:36] Marc: Hooked by, by the, the voice of this teenage, the, the, the creativity that went into creating the voice of this teenage girl.

[00:10:46] Ruth : I didn’t really feel like there was anything creative about it. I, it because. , She now, and, and sometimes this happens with characters, it’s almost like they’re coming from some other [00:11:00] place, ?

[00:11:00] Ruth : And, and that I really have very little to do with it. , I just kind of have to show up and be ready and, , and if I do that, then, suddenly this character starts to speak to me. And, , when I say that, I know it sounds crazy. I know it sounds like really kind of, like woo woo or something, ?

[00:11:17] Ruth : . Uh, and I, and I understand that it’s not, , it’s not like a PI play where there’s all these, , characters out there in search of authors and they see one and they, , it’s like, oh look, , she’s paying attention. I think I’ll go inhabit her. Right? I know it’s not like that.

[00:11:31] Ruth : I think it’s more that. We all, all of us, have different facets of self, right? This thing that we call self, right? And we have all of these different facets of self and different facets of self emerge in relationship to others, right? And so, if you pay attention to that, , if you’re kind of tuned into the different facets of self that you have been over the course of a very long lifetime.

[00:11:58] Ruth : That’s what I [00:12:00] think, that’s where the material comes from. And so at, there was a point where I was a an unhappy, right. 16-year-old girl who had lots of suicidal ideations and who also was very dramatic about her life. And, and I think that is where, , the impetus for the voice of now comes from.

[00:12:20] Ruth : It’s, and, and I think too, , in that book there’s a character named Ruth. Right. So that’s clear where that Ruth comes from, ? Yes, yes. And then there’s old gco who is 104 year old, great grandmother. And , I think that’s a kind of aspirational, , aspect facet of self.

[00:12:37] Marc: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:38] Ruth : So, I mean, I guess, , in Buddhism we talk about no self, and maybe this is exactly the same thing. There is no fixed self, it’s all relational, right?

[00:12:45] Marc: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I love in your writing though, the obvious and not so obvious kind of weaving, , zen zen practices, zen selflessness in, into, [00:13:00] into your, into your writing, right?

[00:13:01] Marc: That, like, you, you just, you just threw out that this character’s name is now.

[00:13:06] Ruth : Right. NAO. But of course there’s a pun. That’s right. Right. There’s a pun on NOW. Yeah. Yes,

[00:13:14] Marc: yes. And, and then the, uh, the grandmother, old Gco and the kind of relationship of, , kind of time and life and death, and of course in the bringing, bringing the teachings of Dogan into Right.

[00:13:29] Marc: Time, time being.

[00:13:31] Ruth : Yeah. Well that was a, , , that I wrote that book at a point where, at a period in my life where and it was a fairly long, I mean, it took me about 10 years maybe to write, maybe even longer. This was right after my, so that was my third novel. And it was. After my mother died in 2004, , that’s when I was getting more serious about Zen and I went through a [00:14:00] period there.

[00:14:00] Ruth : Where I just, I, I just had a kind of writer’s block, right? I’d published two novels. I just couldn’t get any traction. On a third, I think I started and stopped many different, , many different books during that time. And I really was feeling like, I don’t know whether I’m gonna be able to continue to do this.

[00:14:18] Ruth : I just, , I, and I, I know that this was, , I, I had lost both parents by then. Life was. Life was hard. And , and so the one thing that was, that felt helpful to me was, was the Zen practice. And so I got quite serious about it and I was living up here on Cortez Island in the middle of a rainforest.

[00:14:37] Ruth : And there’s not much to do here during the winter. And so I set about, I di I was, I, I was really getting interested in Dogan then. And, , I think I had read, I had read Genjo Koan and I started to think very, much about time. And, and of course, because I had just had this, sort of very intimate confrontation with [00:15:00] mortality taking care of my mom.

[00:15:01] Ruth : She had Alzheimer’s and so she really was like a time being who was, very gradually. Dropping out of time. And . And so I was thinking a lot about that and I started reading uji, the Time Being Dogen’s Fale, the time being or being time, depending on how you wanna translate it. And I started.

[00:15:22] Ruth : Kind of doing an experiment with time. And one of the things I did was block off. I, I got rid of all the clocks in the house and even on my computer I put a little piece of tape over the, the time. , And just because I wanted to see what it was like, , the days are very short in the winter up here because we’re so far north, and I just wanted to see what it would be like to live in a kind of timeless.

[00:15:46] Ruth : Way and to take cues from my body rather than the clock. Right? And so, and I was doing a lot of meditating then, and I think, and, and I was reading the, the Fal Ji [00:16:00] time being. And I think it was really from that experience that the book started to grow the phrase. Time being the way that Katana Hashi translates that phrase he translates it as the time being.

[00:16:16] Ruth : And there’s something kind of weirdly unstable about that phrase in English, because depending on how you pronounce it, it can mean two different things, right? It can mean temporarily, , for the time being right? For, , for now, for the time being, , or for the time being. And if you emphasize the first, and certainly in the context that he puts it in it sounds like a being like a, like an entity, like a, like a time Lord, or, , an alien being made of time.

[00:16:46] Ruth : And, and that really intrigued me, that I loved that, the kind of instability of the phrase, and I think, , it was kind of like a loose tooth every time I ran across it. It would kind of, , I would have to kind of play with it a little bit and. [00:17:00] That I think lodged itself in my brain.

[00:17:02] Ruth : And then one day I just, , this voice came to me and it was a voice of this 16-year-old, , teenager living in Tokyo. And , and she introduced herself to me and she said, hi, my name is now and I’m a time being, do what a time being is? Well, if you give me a moment, I will tell you a time being is someone who lives in time and that may, , and she just.

[00:17:24] Ruth : Boom, she was off and running, right? Yeah. Yeah. , So it all came from that, it all came from that little bit of that little phrase and then the, , the kind of experiment that I was doing around it with time.

[00:17:35] Marc: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love, , I feel like I don’t even need to ask you about your creative process.

[00:17:41] Marc: It’s just kind of seeping out, seeping out of you. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s interesting, especially in today’s, today’s world where. Time and we’re so right that you, that you needed to, I love that you, uh, even put a put, blocked it out even on your, because every, everywhere we live, everywhere

[00:17:59] Ruth : there’s [00:18:00] clocks.

[00:18:00] Ruth : Yeah. There’s s there’s, there’s, yeah,

[00:18:02] Marc: there’s, there’s clocks. Yeah.

[00:18:03] Ruth : Yeah. Well, I mean, we live in a relentlessly capitalist society and capitalism and t , and time. It’s all about monetizing time, right. And, and, , turning time into a commodity and. That seems like a really limited way to live a life, right?

[00:18:17] Ruth : I mean, it’s, it’s not that time is a construct, right? Blocks are constructs. Money is a construct. So, why not just let go of it all and see, I mean here too, the wonderful thing about living as remotely. A as we do up here is that there’s really nothing to buy, right? And so, , I, when I lived here, I would go for weeks and weeks without ever handling money, right?

[00:18:45] Ruth : I mean, I would lose my wallet and then suddenly have to go to town and realize like, oh, right, I need money. And, , and I’d have to run around, , trying to find my wallet. Of course. Now the problem is that you can actually get [00:19:00] Amazon here, even here on Cortez. So all of that’s, all of that’s ruined, , but

[00:19:07] Marc: So do you, , do you have a ritual these days around around writing that’s either time bound or not time bound, and how do you, how do you practice?

[00:19:20] Ruth : Well, usually, , . Usually when I’m writing, I’m in North Hampton, Massachusetts, which is where I’m living these days. And I have an office there and this is a new, this is new for me. I’ve never had an office before and I love my office and I have no internet there. If I need to, I can get on, get on on my phone, but generally I don’t, I don’t have internet there.

[00:19:47] Ruth : And , and I just go there in the morning. Spend the day there and, yeah, and it’s a place that is, , where I only do writing. I don’t do I, I try my hardest [00:20:00] not to do email, not to do all of the business stuff that one has to do. , It’s just a kind of creative space. And that’s been.

[00:20:08] Ruth : That’s been really, really wonderful. I tend to write best in the mornings. And so my, , my ideal situation is, get up and go to the office and and write, and then by around , by around, , one or two o’clock, I’m, I’m kind of winding down a little bit. So I’ll do other things.

[00:20:27] Ruth : , I like to kind of work out in the afternoons or, , do something kind of more energetic in the afternoons. Yeah, and that’s, that’s basically it. It depends on where I am though in a project, right? Sure. First drafts are, are rough and I, I, don’t usually work more than a couple of hours, but once I’m on to kind of editing and, which is the really fun part right for me I can, I can work for.

[00:20:50] Ruth : 10, 12 hours at a time.

[00:20:53] Marc: Right. Interesting. How different, right, the Yeah, yeah, yeah. The blank, the blank pages compared to,

[00:20:59] Ruth : it’s [00:21:00] very intimidating. Yeah. Yeah. It really is. Even, , even after all these years. Yeah.

[00:21:05] Marc: Well, I’m, I, I, I’m guessing, although I could be wrong, but I’m guessing that you don’t think of yourself through the lens as a leader so much.

[00:21:16] Ruth : Oh, no, I don’t at all. No. See,

[00:21:17] Marc: but see, so I wanna, I wanna give you some different context here.

[00:21:21] Ruth : Yeah.

[00:21:21] Marc: I think of you, I think that as a, as a writer and as, so like the, , some of the key, key components of leadership are one, is, uh, there’s having a vision of what you want to accomplish.

[00:21:37] Marc: There’s actually accomplishing something. Mm-hmm. And, and probably. You end up working with, in leading teams. Mm-hmm. , That you, you, you have your, your, your agent and your editor and your publisher and various, and that you might not. And you’re probably leading in a, in a, , in [00:22:00] more of a kind of a zen way of leading.

[00:22:03] Ruth : I just do what they tell me to do.

[00:22:04] Marc: Well, exactly. That’s what you think.

[00:22:06] Ruth : Yeah. And

[00:22:06] Marc: they all think, they all think they just do what you tell them to do. Probably.

[00:22:10] Ruth : Well, I think actually they might know that they have to tell me to do things, but, no, I think you’re right. You’re right. But it’s a, I guess, I.

[00:22:21] Ruth : Personally have a, a slightly like aversive reaction to the idea of leadership. Because, , my relationship with the, with the work itself. Which is what I feel like my real work is. My real work is is solitary. It’s, it’s what I do, on the page. It’s, uh, relationship between me and the language and me and the characters and me and the book.

[00:22:50] Ruth : , The book eventually starts to have its own persona and so, , it’s, it’s this very intimate relationship between me and the work. Itself, , this book. [00:23:00] And it’s all about following. Mm-hmm. If I try to lead, that’s when I, that’s when I screw up. Mm-hmm. , And so it’s really about, really trying to kind of drop any sense of my own.

[00:23:13] Ruth : Conscious preferences, right. And follow a, a much, different kind of intuitive relationship with the material itself, with the art itself, right? And so there’s that. And then in terms of, sort of that, and that’s being a writer. Right. And I differentiate that from being an author, right?

[00:23:30] Ruth : Being the, being an author is outward facing work. And that’s a job. That’s not work. To me, that’s a job. It’s something that I have to do. , I’m, , responsible for the material that I, the books that I put out into the world, , they’re like, children, I have to take care of them. But that’s a job. That’s not, that’s not the work itself. And so, and, and there are, I think, leadership components, , in the more traditional idea of the word leadership. But even there, I, I feel I [00:24:00] feel like it’s more, and, and I’m sure you would agree with this, that it’s relational that my relationship with my readers is.

[00:24:11] Ruth : Collaboration. It’s not me leading them anywhere. It’s, , they happen to pick up my book and then we have this conversation that takes place over time and, but that’s it.

[00:24:22] Marc: Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, this is, this is, I would say the, well you might say it’s the great, the great aha of, of modern leadership, but it’s the same.

[00:24:32] Marc: It’s the great aha of lasu. Who that. This idea, that leader, that leadership is primarily relational.

[00:24:43] Ruth : Mm-hmm. It is. Yeah. Yeah. And that it should be anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And

[00:24:47] Marc: that, that, , what’s, what’s quite beautiful is the way you describe your relation to your characters. I’m also thinking about the way you were [00:25:00] describing.

[00:25:00] Marc: Your relationship to self and kind of mi listening or mining, the various selves, which in a sense is a kind of practice of selflessness. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There’s not any one particular self. And, and I’m also what I read last night I thought is somehow seeming appropriate for right now is this, , this zen poem.

[00:25:22] Marc: When the wind stops flowers fall. When the bird sings, the mountain becomes more calm. That’s nice. Well, it’s ju and I feel like I’m just mirroring what I’m hearing from you. Yeah. About, le it’s, it’s a little bit like you could say, when when I stop leading, beautiful temples are built.

[00:25:45] Marc: Mm mm mm-hmm. Or, , or something, something about this playing, playing with. Leading and following, or doing, doing, doing, and, and not so much doing. And

[00:25:56] Ruth : that, that, evokes for me the, , [00:26:00] Dogen’s teaching about the backward step. Mm-hmm. , And how important it is to, , to take the backward step and shine the light inward.

[00:26:08] Ruth : Right. I think is what he, , he, and that’s his instruction, part of his instruction for meditation. And, . And I think that’s a, , I, I found that to be a beautiful instruction for everything, for life, for certainly for relationships, rather than, , a. Leaning in, stepping forward, dominating kind of relationship with people and with time and with your to-do lists and , everything else.

[00:26:32] Ruth : Right. This idea of productivity, I mean, you used the word mining earlier and I would object to that because I don’t think of it as mining that that’s too object oriented. That’s too, acquisitive. No, it, it’s, it’s more just, , it’s kind of widening and observing and receiving. Mm-hmm.

[00:26:49] Ruth : ? But yeah. Yes. I guess, I mean, I just have a very passive, approach, which is actually not passive, but it

[00:26:57] Marc: right. Passive. Passive does not feel [00:27:00] like

[00:27:00] Ruth : Yeah.

[00:27:01] Marc: How I would des Right. So, yeah. But

[00:27:02] Ruth : it’s a kind of active passivity.

[00:27:05] Marc: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s sounds like, , it’s, it’s a, it’s allowing, it’s deep listening.

[00:27:13] Marc: Yeah. Yeah. It’s being, maybe being, . Being awake. Being awake for what is, what is, especially for you as a writer. What, what is, what is coming through you. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it’s interesting how you are quite quite clear in, in a way, in creating the environment for that.

[00:27:34] Ruth : Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s true.

[00:27:36] Ruth : I think that’s true and it’s a, , it’s a less a physical environment than a, , almost a, a mental environment. Yeah, yeah. And that’s where I think Zazen is, is a wonderful way of creating that environment. It’s, it’s, , creating a kind of receptive mind, , that, that can be aware and can.

[00:27:57] Ruth : Pay attention. Right. , And isn’t always distracted and [00:28:00] clouded by, all of the noise. Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:02] Marc: Well, great. We’ve, we’ve somehow managed to come full circle. We started with your Zen Orange origin story, and now we’re talking about zen.

[00:28:10] Ruth : That’s right, that’s right. That’s right. All roads, all roads to zazen, , sorry,

[00:28:14] Marc: Zen, Zen meditation.

[00:28:15] Marc: And

[00:28:16] Ruth : That’s right.

[00:28:16] Marc: And I love, I love the story of your walking in and kind of receiving this kind of silent. Transmission from your grandfather.

[00:28:26] Ruth : Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:28:28] Marc: It’s a beautiful, it’s a beautiful image.

[00:28:30] Ruth : Yeah. Yeah. No, that was, I, the first memory I have as a human being, right. So that it meant something, I think.

[00:28:39] Ruth : Mm-hmm. It gave me sort of my marching orders. Yeah.

[00:28:42] Marc: Yeah. It’s really a delight to just to get to hang out, get to hang out with you. And I am I notice I’m feeling inspired to create the mind, mind, space and physical space for my [00:29:00] own writing and c creative, creative process. Yeah. So it’s a thank you for the inspiration.

[00:29:06] Ruth : Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, I guess that’s the last thing to say is that we all have this, right? I mean, this is not unique to me. , We all have this. It’s just, , are you going to give yourself, permission to really relax into that, that, that creativity and, and, and do it allow that to happen.

[00:29:27] Ruth : Allow that to emerge, right? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, uh.

[00:29:32] Marc: Relax into your creativity. Yes. I think you’ve just, , named, named what we’ll call this conversation. And I, and I, and I always often I perhaps this will be part one and we’ll we’ll see where we, where we wanna go at some other time. But, but Ruth, thank you so much.

[00:29:48] Marc: I appreciate talking to you.

[00:29:49] Ruth : Thank you so much, Marc. It’s great to talk to you.

[music]

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The 7 Miracles of Mindfulness

This practice episode centers on ‘The Seven Miracles of Mindfulness’ by Vietnamese Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh. The episode begins with a brief guided meditation focusing on mindfulness of the breath and body. Marc shares personal anecdotes from his time with Thich Nhat Hanh, and dives into the seven miracles of mindfulness, which include being present, making others present, nourishing others, relieving suffering, looking deeply, understanding, and transformation. 

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

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[00:00:00] Marc: Welcome to Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, a biweekly podcast featuring conversations with leaders and teachers exploring the intersection of keeping our hearts open and effective action in these most uncertain and challenging times. Please support our work by making a donation at Marc lesser slash donate.

I am  pleased about today’s episode called The Seven Miracles of Mindfulness. We’ll start with a short guided meditation and then onto these seven beautiful practices that were introduced to me by Vietnamese Zen teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh. And they are. You’ll see they’re simple and they’re profound, and they are easily, uh, accessible and [00:01:00] integrateable into your daily life.

I hope you enjoy today’s episode.

Let’s begin with a few minutes of sitting practice together. I’m gonna ring my, ring my bell that has traveled the world with me.

Yeah, so an invitation to to pause, to stop and just, um, just noticing that you are here we are here

in bringing awareness to the body, mindfulness of the [00:02:00] body, right? Such a core core practice. Includes mindfulness of the breath

often thinking of one of the earliest teachings of the historical Buddha was, there’s only one way, only one way, one path to finding real freedom or kind of true. Happiness and, you know, so that, that that line, uh, got my attention. And then the next line in this teaching is when breathing a long breath, be aware that you’re breathing a long breath.

When breathing a short breath be aware that you’re breathing a short breath and. I think this teaching is both literal and, and a metaphor. [00:03:00] So literal, like anytime, like right now, right now, noticing that you’re breathing, noticing that breathing is happening and

as a metaphor, I think it’s, um. Bringing awareness to whatever we’re doing. Not only here while we’re stopping, but throughout, throughout the day. But this is, uh, this is this, mind training right now, mind training, to be able to notice not so simple and not so simple. So just stopping, noticing the body, noticing the breath.

Uh, nothing nothing to accomplish. That spirit, I think is also [00:04:00] useful. Nothing to accomplish. No need to change anything I.

Uh, simply being here

alive breathing.

And this, this sense, this, um,

realization that we bring our entire life. Behind is right here in this moment, this breath, right? This breath is new and fresh. And at the same time all of [00:05:00] our

Ancient twisted karma ancient. Precious life is all right here in this moment, this breath, this body,

uh, and keeping it simple breathing in and breathing out.

I am breathing in. I’m aware that I’m breathing in and breathing out. I’m aware that I’m breathing [00:06:00] out.

Maybe paying a particular attention to each exhale, you know, so with each exhale. A letting go. Letting go of the activities of the day, of any, anything that you might be holding onto that would be useful to let go. Yeah, regrets, worries, anxiety, let it go. Name it, if it helps, you know, regret this year.

Anxiety is here and with each exhale as much as possible letting it go[00:07:00] 

and just, uh, this practice of I. Appreciating whatever is here, appreciating without comparison or judgment, letting go of comparison and judgment.

And, uh, please, uh, feel free to continue sitting. I’m gonna ring the bell.

Pause for for now.

Marc: So I’ve been really pleased in studying some of Tik na Han’s writings. [00:08:00] I.

I’ve, I feel really lucky that when I lived at Tassajara Zen Mountain Center I got to spend, uh, two weeks with with Tik Han. He came, he came in and did a class every morning in the dining room for the. Or maybe 50 or 60 students there, Zen students there. And at the time that, that was the year I was director and one of my one of my jobs.

Somehow I, I don’t know exactly how or why, but it was my job to, uh, to go to where he was staying, his cabin at Tassajara, which was over on one end of the valley. I would knock on his door and he would come and we would bow to each other and he would come out and we would, we would walk from where he was staying across Tassajara [00:09:00] Valley, you know, along, along a gravel path.

And we would walk at his pace, which was very slowly. He had a way of doing. A kind of walking meditation even during this walk from his cabin over to where he was going to give a class. And so I knew that and so I, I would come early enough. So we had plenty of, there plenty of time. It was, uh, uh, extremely un rushed walking side by side with with Ty.

Ty was the name, you know, kind of a honorific for teacher. Yeah, as I’m saying this, I can kind of, hear this, hear and feel the sound of our, of our footsteps touching the, along the gravel, the gravel path that Sahara. And I don’t usually tell this, this part of the story, but I will here.

I’m not sure why, but I will, uh, but, uh, one day, [00:10:00] one day as we were walking he stopped turned. I turned and we stood there face to face and he looked at me, looked at me in the eye and said, we have known each other in a previous lifetime. And then you turned, I turned and we continued walking and nothing more was ever said about that.

Uh, but. I felt so it just moved me the the starkness and the intimacy of his, uh, comment. And, you know, whether, you know, I, you know, do I do, what do I think about previous lifetimes? I don’t know. I, I wouldn’t say I, oh yes, I’m sure, sure. Or no, no, I don’t, I don’t know. But in that moment. I felt his tick Han’s assuredness that he and I knew each other in a previous lifetime, and there was something very, I [00:11:00] felt so honored by that by that comment.

And, and interesting, I left Tasara the following, the following fall went to business school and uh, and a few years after business school I started a a company called Brush Dance, a greeting card company. And um, and we were. Creating journals and greeting cards and calendars and mostly licensing the names of, uh, you know, the Dalai Lama and poetry of Rumi were some of our lines.

And I had this idea of, oh, we should tick not Han, he was just, as he was becoming more and more known, I thought, oh, we should we should publish some cards and journals and calendars with his quotes. He had so many beautiful. Things that he had written. And I I called [00:12:00] his people and I received a response back that said uh, Han says that you can use anything he’s ever said, and we don’t want a contract.

And please make a donation of any amount that feels, um, appropriate and. The Han line that, um, brush dance produced for many, many years of greeting cards, calendars, journals, some other products as well. Uh, was one of our, one of our best selling lines. And so something very meaningful and potent to me about my connection and.

Relationship with with Han. And this morning I wanna share one of his one of his teachings that, um, I, I find he weaves in throughout much of his writing and talks are called The Seven Miracles of [00:13:00] Mindfulness. Seven Miracles of Mindfulness. And these miracles are uh, to be present, to make others present to nourish others.

To relieve other suffering, looking deeply, uh, understanding and and transformation. And you know, there’s a lot, there’s a lot I could say about each of these, but mostly I want to this morning, uh, just. Unpack a little bit. You know the first one, right? The first miracle of mindfulness is to be present.

Uh, one of our one of our, uh, greeting cards that we published was, uh, the greatest gift you can give someone is your presence. The greatest gift that you can give someone is your presence. And the way the way Tek Hanh describes this. First miracle of [00:14:00] mindfulness is to be present, to be aware of a flower, the smile of a child, of your hand, your, I sometimes throughout the day, just take a moment to to look at my own, my own hand as you know, what a miracle are our bodies and minds.

So just to be, uh, present and of course this this practice of presence includes, impermanence, right? That, that as I look at my hand, I notice my hand right now is a very different hand than, uh, it was when I was a child. And really probably a different hand than it was, yesterday and.

And we have the ability, I can also kind see my hand when I am when I’m an old person. And I can also [00:15:00] feel the impermanence of, before this hand came into existence and after this hand will be, transformed into something else after. I’m no longer here. So this is, this is all part of this, simple practice to be present, to be present.

The first miracle of mindfulness. And, and I think it also includes, seeing the, the inner beingness of things is also included in this practice of to be present, right? That this hand isn’t just my hand, right? It’s connected to. My, my mother and father’s hands, and their mother and father’s hands and all, all every human hand, every all of life is included in the right, the cells and synapses, you know, in this, this thing [00:16:00] that we call hand, body to be present.

So this is part of the. Part of this practice of the miracle of mindfulness. I love, you know, there’s a kind of audacity that Tekon has by using the word miracle, right? It’s a reminder, it’s a reminder ’cause it’s so easy to, we humans so acclimate to things. Make things, or ordinary.

And they are ordinary, right? My hand, this hand, your hand, our hands are very ordinary and they are completely mysterious and unexplainable. So they are miracles, right? So this is the, the core practice is to be present. And from there. We have the ability to be aware of others, right? To make others present.

We have the ability to relieve, [00:17:00] you know, to nourish others, to relieve others suffering. And and in some way what I’ve been talking about as the impermanence and. The inner being is connected to the fifth practice of, look, this is looking deeply and through looking deeply, having some, some insight, some insight.

And under understanding is the, the sixth miracle of mindfulness. And the the seventh miracle is, transformation. You know that through, through these practices, through being present through these, we we are transformed. We are transformed, and we, and we transform.

And I was, as I’m, as I’m thinking of these, um, I’m remembering that I, I spent many, many hours, uh, teaching. Teaching at Google, [00:18:00] standing in front of, uh, Google Engineers teaching these, these practices or related practices, right under the, under the guise of mindful leadership or mindfulness based, um, emotional intelligence.

And all of these practices I think are so core to, uh, to leadership, right? To to emotional intelligence. And I think there’s. Tremendous overlap in what we label as mindfulness leadership and and emotional intelligence. And and one of the questions, one of the questions I was, you know, most asked by Google engineers is, uh, what is the least amount of time?

It can practice, you know, what is the least amount of time it can practice meditation or practice mindfulness and have it make a difference. And you know, and they, these were, these questions were coming from, I think [00:19:00] the mind, both, I think the mind of laziness, but also the mind of the scientist, right?

They wanted to know like what what studies have been done, what evidence is there that shows me about the relationship of. How much time I spend practicing meditation or mindfulness and some kind of measurable change. So I appreciated I got to really appreciate the mind of the scientists that wanted to know the data.

And there have been actually more and more, you know, scientists are also trying to answer that question. What is the least amount of time and that you can meditate and have it make a difference. And you know, but it’s interesting. One of the things that I learned about science is that there’s what you can measure and there is your experience and there’re both very useful and [00:20:00] important and one of the.

Important. Interesting. You know, pieces about science is it can teach us things beyond our experience, right? So much of science, what we’ve learned about vaccines and the body is how the brain works. And it can be really useful to have an understanding about how the brain works beyond what we can experience at the same time.

Our experience is really important. So like in, in any intervention or like in therapy, for instance, or in meditation, I would say it’s great that there is the science of doing, brain scans showing changes in the brain. But really it’s what really matters is how, is how do these practices.

Influence you? How do they change you? How do they change your [00:21:00] experience and how you are experienced? And my, my my answer to this question from Google Engineers of what’s the least amount of time I can practice and have it make a difference, became one breath, one aware, mindful breath each day. Can make a difference in your life.

Right. And again it’s a practice, right? It’s easy to, uh, you might make a commitment to do one mindful breath each day, but have some way of checking in at the end of the day. Oh, did I remember? And maybe then taking your one breath. So one, uh, one mindful breath. Each day is perhaps a, uh. Practice for me, one of my practices, I’m, I’m committed to sitting meditation every day for a minimum of three minutes.

I generally like to sit for 20 or 30 minutes, but there are some [00:22:00] days it does happen that for, you know, things happen. But I can always find three minutes. And I think anyone can always find one mindful breath, one mindful breath. This maybe is the core practice of Right, the seven miracles of mindfulness to be present starting with one breath, starting with three minutes a day, starting with the aspiration to be present for as many moments in your life as you, as you can, coming back again and again.

Breathing a short breath. I am aware that I’m breathing a short breath being, agitated. I’m aware, feeling joy. I’m aware whatever it is. Awareness. Awareness. Um, again and again, so [00:23:00] please do explore practicing. These are miracles. The simple ordinary, uh, miracles of to be present, to make others present, to nourish others, to relieve others suffering, to look deeply cultivating, understanding, and, uh, transformation.

Thank you very much.

I hope you’ve appreciated today’s episode. To learn more about my work, you can visit Marc lesser.net, and if you’re interested in enrolling in a self-directed course, called Seven Practices of a Mindful Leader, please visit www.Marclesser.courses.thinkific.com. This podcast is offered freely and relies on the financial support from listeners like you.

You can donate@marclesser.net slash donate. Thank you very much.

[END OF AUDIO]

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Mindfulness Practice May Destroy Your Common Sense

In A Good Way

In this issue:

Mindfulness and Common SenseZen of Coaching: An Online Course For Executive CoachesWhat I’m Reading – Why Buddhism Is TrueMindful Leadership PodcastWhat I’m Watching – NPR Tiny Desk

A famous scientist (often said to be Bertrand Russell or William James) is giving a public lecture on astronomy, explaining how the Earth orbits the sun and is part of a solar system in a vast universe. A skeptical elderly woman in the audience interrupts and says:

“That’s nonsense. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant turtle.”

The scientist asks, “What is the turtle standing on?”
She replies, “You’re very clever, young man, but it’s turtles all the way down.”

This story reminds me of a statement from Zen teacher Shunryu Suzuki: “Buddhism wants to destroy your common sense.”

Well, of course we need our common sense. We could probably use a lot more common sense!

I think Shunryu Suzuki is suggesting that there is more, much more to this human life, and that perhaps the world is not what it seems. He is opening the door to not be limited by our common sense; to not be limited and driven by fear, scarcity, to-do lists, survival, and the immediate concerns of the day.

I love his expression: “Don’t be a “board-carrying fellow” — where the board on our shoulder prevents us from seeing the poetic, the sacred; seeing ourselves, our world, birth, life, and death from a variety of wondrous perspectives; a place where we find some hope and inspiration in “turtles all the way down.”

I have a strong belief that common sense and going beyond common sense is a powerful and important combination.

Here is a poem that beautifully captures the practical and the poetic; held by love, pleasure, and an invitation to live beyond our common sense.

The Word

~ Tony Hoagland, from Sweet Ruin (1992)

Down near the bottom
of the crossed-out list
of things you have to do today,

between “green thread”
and “broccoli” you find
that you have penciled “sunlight.”

Resting on the page, the word
is as beautiful, it touches you
as if you had a friend

and sunlight were a present
he had sent you from some place distant
as this morning — to cheer you up,

and to remind you that,
among your duties, pleasure
is a thing,

that also needs accomplishing
Do you remember?
that time and light are kinds

of love, and love
is no less practical
than a coffee grinder

or a safe spare tire?
Tomorrow you may be utterly
without a clue

but today you get a telegram,
from the heart in exile
proclaiming that the kingdom

still exists,
the king and queen alive,
still speaking to their children,

–to any one among them
who can find the time,
to sit out in the sun and listen.

Share

Practices:

Explore looking at your hand, with a sense of curiosity and wonder. How did this thing I call a part of “my” body come to be? How does this influence how you see yourself, others, and the world?

Put “sunlight” and “pleasure” and reading poetry on your to-do list.

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Zen of Coaching: For Executive Coaches: Transforming Others, Becoming Your Best Self, Changing The World

I’m excited to introduce this online course, beginning October 24th:

Zen of Coaching is a transformational program for executive coaches and leaders who want to deepen their presence, expand their impact, and build a coaching practice rooted in wisdom, not just performance. Blending Zen principles, mindfulness, and real-world leadership experience, this course—created by Marc Lesser, the Zen teacher and CEO who helped bring mindful leadership to Google—supports you in cultivating stillness, navigating complexity, and coaching with greater authenticity, clarity, and purpose.

To register and for more information.

What I’m Reading

Why Buddhism Is True, by Robert Wright – explores how core Buddhist teachings—like mindfulness, non-self, and meditation—align with evolutionary psychology and neuroscience to reduce suffering and enhance well-being in modern life.

Mindful Leadership Podcast

Recent interviews with David Whyte, Oliver Burkeman, and Jiryu Rutschman-Byler, and practice sessions.

What I”m Watching

NPR Tiny Desk. Andrea Gibson performs MAGA Hat In The Chemo Room – Powerful and Moving

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Warmest regards,

Marc

The post Mindfulness Practice May Destroy Your Common Sense appeared first on Marc Lesser.

Navigating Leadership Through Presence

In our latest episode, Marc hosts a thought-provoking conversation with Abbott Jiryu Byler, exploring the profound intersection of open-heartedness and effective action in the face of uncertainty. This discussion delves deep into the zen teachings of Suzuki Roshi and presents invaluable insights into the journey of mindful leadership.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Marc: [00:00:00] Welcome to Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, a biweekly podcast featuring conversations with leaders and teachers exploring the intersection of keeping our hearts open and effective action in these most uncertain and challenging times. Please support our work by making a donation at Marc Lesser slash donate.

Today’s guest is Abbott  Jiryu Rutschman Byler actually goes by the name his dharma name, his Buddhist name is Jiryu. Jiryu is the co-habit of the San Francisco Zen Center and abiding Abbott at Green Gulch Farm. He is a transmitted Zen teacher in the lineage of Shira Suzuki. He [00:01:00] received his Dharma transmission from Soja, Mel Weitzman I’ve known Jiryu for many years.

And I’ve always been impressed with his his both his scholarly ability and that he has done work at San Quentin. He’s currently co-editing a new collection of teachings by a Suzuki Roshi a book called Becoming Yourself. And I am looking forward to the book and I am really looking forward to my, this conversation with Jiryu.

Jiryu. Good morning. It’s really a pleasure to get to spend this time with you.

Jiryu: Good morning, Marc. Thanks so much for the invitation.

Marc: So I can’t help myself. I think I, I need to start with a dream that I woke up with yesterday morning, which was I was I was waiting. I. Waiting for some people to go somewhere and they were late and I was feeling stressed and anxious.

And then in the next scene I was in a [00:02:00] courtyard where I was supposed to teach a college class and I didn’t know where the room, what room was in. And I was looking through the pamphlet and I couldn’t find out. I was getting more and more anxious and stressed. And finally I found the phone number for some people to call.

I pulled out my phone and my phone was frozen. It didn’t work. And in that moment I had this enormous, simple insight that none of this was real. And it was partly, I think I knew a little bit was, I knew I was dreaming, but also I just knew that none of this was real. And I walked over to to my wife, Lee.

I looked at her with a big smile on my face. I said, none of this is real. And I leapt in the air about 10 feet in the air and did a back flip and landed next to her. [00:03:00] And and then I took the hand of a woman next to me and started flying. And so I, I think this is, I think I’m curious your thoughts about a way into, Suzuki Roche’s teaching and this book that you’ve just recently edited.

A becoming, it’s funny I go back and forth with becoming yourself, becoming ourselves, becoming yourself. And and so much of his teaching, I think is what we think of as I. Real, maybe not so real, and what we think of as ourselves. Maybe there’s another perspective. Yeah.

And even the type what does it mean? Becoming yourself. Becoming yourself. Why? And in terms of I of course found my dream to really help me in my leadership conversations yesterday [00:04:00] and all of my conversations. Just a sense of not it all is real and it’s not what are your thoughts on what is what is, what do you have to say and what does Suzuki ROI have to say about this?

Okay. Thank you so much. Yeah. Suzuki Roshi, I don’t know. I guess the, I remember the story that goes wash your face. Now that, you had your dream wash, your face, is a classic zen response to a dream. I thi this isn’t in the Suzuki Roshi book. It was, I came across a story in Norman Fisher’s book.

It’s something like this, the practitioner says, I had the most amazing dream but can I tell it to you? And the teacher says something like, yes, hold on. And then comes with a basin and a towel and says, wash your face. So there’s, which again is the, so now, in the kind of like ongoing turning presence, beginner’s [00:05:00] mind letting go.

Now there’s an idea which is serving you today, right? And yesterday for a few days you get this okay, things aren’t real, but what’s the teaching today? So wash your face and what’s the teaching today and what’s the so that’s, it was just my reaction. And remembering I don’t exactly remember the characters of that story, but touched me when I read it in Norman’s book.

But that’s a beautiful expression of kind of the lightness of reality. The freedom of reality, not the sort of that it’s not what we think, that there’s all this kind of space in it is generates this sort of creativity and possibility and engagement aliveness. It’s not I think if we think like intellectually about.

It’s not real and hold onto that in some kind of way, then that could be a kind of nihilistic or deadening or something. Who cares? It’s not real. But what you’re describing is just oh, it’s not exactly that, it’s not real, but it’s not, it doesn’t have this kind of fixed, stuck quality. It’s not [00:06:00] what I think it is.

And so here I go with a back flip. Here I go flying off here I go, smiling at the person I love. That’s yeah, that loosening, softening of the self as actually allowing a kind of authenticity or intimacy. Which I think for like for Suzuki Roshi, when he’s talking about becoming yourself, it’s not hardened the self in this kind of hardened, like you are real and what you are is real.

And be that it’s this what you are yourself is this changing and intimate, he says, uses this term in one of the chapters. So beautiful. It’s sharing the feeling, I don’t know if you saw that chapter, sharing in the feeling of what’s around you, and that when we really are ourself, everything’s included.

So this kind of intimacy and freedom from the self by just being what it is. It’s a subtle point, but I think it’s, I think it’s important and that’s a beautiful dream. What I think of as I, I think it’s an early case from the Blue Cliff record, right? Where the student [00:07:00] enters the monastery and says, to the teacher, give me your teaching.

Oh no, this is the wash your bowl, not wash your face. I’m thinking of the wash your bowl. So in that story, give me your teaching. And the teacher says, have you eaten breakfast? And yes, then wash your bowl. Which I, again, much could be said about that, but it’s. I think a story about learning from experience, right?

Learning. And again, which is maybe similar to what you’re saying about the wash your face. That that don’t, maybe I hear you saying, don’t be so don’t be too caught on whatever lesson I learned yesterday. There might be a new one. Be open to the new one to today.

Jiryu: This connects for me to this question about habit energy and this kind of intimacy with life that you’re describing.

Sort of having this light, light inspired lightness in your life. The feeling of not fix, not stuck reality, and then [00:08:00] you can really receive, your grandson’s leap and and these conversations that you’re having in the way that, in this chapter, in the, in becoming yourself, Suzuki Roshi.

Using this expression, sharing your feeling. And it’s about he says, when you’re in the woods to really feel the feeling of being in the woods is what we mean by meditation. And he says the purpose of zen is to just share the feeling, this share in this feeling of being alive with everything that’s here alive with us.

And he says that’s the purpose. But the problem is our mind is always full of all of this rubbish. And so you say, but it’s beautiful. It’s not just like you needed the bulls, you say wash your bulls. They needed it to be dirty. You needed the food. They it. So he says it’s not rubbish while you’re using it.

It has a purpose while you’re using it. The thinking and all of that’s in our mind. That’s creating a little bit of a kind of filter [00:09:00] layer between us and this kind of intimate, more alive, not known and wondrous reality. There. It’s not like bad that we have those thoughts. They were important while we were using them, but we don’t need them anymore.

So he says, clear the table. After you’ve eaten, you have a pile of like papers and cans and stuff. You just have to clear the table and keep clearing the table, not so that you can be, so that your mind is empty. That your mind isn’t so stuck with this kind of layers of sludge that are blocking you from intimacy.

And I just find that framing so helpful. ’cause we hear clear the mind, get some idea that it’s ’cause the thoughts are bad or we’re supposed to squeeze to stop the thoughts or something. And he is just saying, can you hear the call of the woods? Hear the call of the room that you’re in. Hear the call of the person you’re in front of, and let your mind be quiet so that you can actually be intimate, and receive them.

And then he says that’s what the Buddha did when the Buddha was awakened and saw the morning star, the Buddha. Was [00:10:00] just had an this empty open mind and so could be totally intimate, share the feeling of the morning star. Then he has that great line where maybe it was the morning star sharing the Morningstar’s feeling with the Buddha.

We can’t really say. So that kind of intimacy as what our meditation practice is and then where our ethical practice, our precept practice are skillful practice harmonizing with others in the world also comes from that same like intimacy.

Marc: Yeah. And I I’m aware that, you current, you were, you’ve recently been not so recently, it’s been what, a couple years now thrust into this role of leadership and I think I imagine it is many descriptive words, but one would be fascinating how you practice with, having to lead and, work, lead an organization, work, work with people who have many different needs and ideas while at [00:11:00] the root, this practice of intimacy in lead leadership. And I, there’s a line I pulled out from the book that says to find true joy under some limitation is the way to realize the whole universe.

There’s no other way. The whole universe makes sense to you before you think about it. It’s important to give up your foolish discrimination or foolish ideas of freedom. This is the way of practice which I thought was again beauti. Beautiful. And both you have this blend of pra practical and yet very deep sense of right as you’re describing this feeling of practice.

And I wonder how it’s going in terms of bringing this feeling into practice in terms of your leadership role.

Jiryu: Thank you. Yeah. That’s a beautiful chapter in the book about finding yourself in the limitation. And it’s such an important teaching for [00:12:00] Suzuki Roshi and for Zen practice generally, that because we’re trying to get out of the current, we’re trying to get slip out of the current limitation that we’re in for some freedom that’s outside of that, then we’re actually missing the kind of bottomless boundless.

Alive intimacy with what’s here. So no matter how big or small the room is, if, when you’re totally just in it without trying to get out of it, then that’s how you find the freedom. And if you’re trying to get the big thing he says, you don’t, there’s no way to get the whole universe.

You just get your small room. And that’s how you get the whole universe. So I do think that all of us, it’s like the very, very daily kind of feeling of being in some limitation that we’re chafing against and feeling like wanting, there’s some freedom. There’s gonna be some freedom if we can manage to like, slip out of this list space, and of course, like a demanding job is one of those, I just look at my calendar and feel totally trapped. Like confined in a space is like impossible, jam packed. [00:13:00] And then I have this feeling like, how do I get out of this? I get outta this. But then as this is just what our life is of of saying yes to what’s here.

Then it’s like you just step into that moment, into that activity. There’s no limitation. That was the idea I had, this morning when I was anxious, looking at my calendar, it felt limited. But now that I’m in it, this is not eight o’clock Jiryu lesser, ah, how’s that gonna be in my day?

This is like the whole universe. We’re just here intimate. It’s free, there’s nothing blocking anything. ’cause we’re right here in the small room together. And for me, I’m always trying to, yeah. To wiggle out. So that finding yourself under some limitation has been a really important teaching for me.

There is a, there’s a, a couple things maybe to respond to that question of how it’s going for me. I do feel so part of the,the teaching on this becoming yourself, is also that [00:14:00] I. So for the meditation to just be the authentic kind of experience of this being alive together.

And this, he calls it yourself, but really he means this presence that we have right now that kind of includes everything. Not in some fancy way, but it just does. Like we’re here with everything. Everything is included. So just to be more trust that presence, then that presence can there’s an intuitive wisdom there.

And so the meditation part is just sharing in that feeling. And then the ethical part, or the kind of right action part is not so much trusting our mind and our stories and our fixed ideas, or even our moral codes if they’re like rigid, fixed moral codes that we have in our mind. But being who we are fully includes that we have this kind of innate loving heart, and that we’re intimate with what’s here and it’s trusting that our action, that kinda I can’t say like the best thing or the right thing, but.

A better approach is gonna be to [00:15:00] trust that I can settle down, try to empty and clear my mind a little bit, try to become intimate with how it feels right now in me, which includes my tension and my resistance, but also includes my innate tenderness and loving heart, and then be present with the person that I’m with.

So I’m often in these situations where I think, the worst, right? As a like leader is somebody tells you to tell somebody, person Y tells you to tell person X, thing B, and you’re just like or I have a feeling, oh, that thing needs to be fixed, or something needs to happen, or somebody is doing something wrong.

And then I have the story that starts to build and I’m gonna, get me a meeting with so and we’re gonna do this thing. And then I. I’m in my head with my idea about what’s supposed to happen to solve this problem that I’m gonna solve, so that I can be out of the limitation, so I can be free.

So then the practice is okay, I have all this idea, now I’m with this person. Can I actually just find this presence and this intimacy? And then o often it’s oh [00:16:00] yes, my story’s true. My thing that I had worked out in my mind about what the situation needs. Might still have some wisdom in it might still need to be expressed, but there’s something here also that’s alive and intimate and I can feel the tenderness and really be human with.

So that and then I feel the stakes of the practice, the stakes of the practice of intimacy, rather than coming in with my ideas, which I have compassion for, because that’s me trying to take responsibility. I’m trying to be responsible for the thing, but then my head is trying to do it by making these fixed ideas about how things should go.

If I really understood how important my responsibility was, I would be wanting to entrust that to the intuitive wisdom that this intimacy, which includes the mind, but, so that’s a kind of everyday, ’cause I get these stories about people, and then when I’m actually with them and allow myself to just be with them, it’s oh, I don’t know you and I don’t know what you need.

And part of what’s been fascinating for me in unpacking and [00:17:00] exploring this idea of becoming yourself for Suzuki Roshi, it does have this feeling of your becoming yourself in a real way, in a deep way. Your authentic self, which is this, as I said, intimate and this kind of tender loving heart. And that doesn’t mean like to push away.

The part, you might say I don’t really have a tender loving heart, or My tender loving heart is not accessible. I’m just aware of like my constriction and anxiety and resentment and all that and that, that’s all welcome. That’s all part of it. But there’s a kind of confidence, in c Kiros teaching that if you just keep opening, if you just really welcome what’s here at the core of our being is this intimacy and love, you don’t have to go somewhere else to find that.

You don’t have to manufacture that. You don’t have to slap that on top of something even on top of your hatred. You just make room for that, include that, and just keep, including, include [00:18:00] everything. And if you keep including how it is to be you’re gonna get to this natural. Tenderness there.

So I think when we say find your loving heart, somebody might scramble somewhere else to like, get that, where do I find that? And the direction is always no, you have it and you don’t have to you just keep including whatever’s here. You can just keep including it and then trust that that is our nature and that we can, it’s worth trying to settle into that and then to try to live from that, that, that might be even more beneficial than living from the kind of moral codes and ideas that we have.

I’m not saying that I’m doing like a particularly good job of that. You can ask around in the community here, but as a direction of the effort, it’s I wanna be here with each o with people,

Marc: no,  that’s, beautiful as a, in terms, whether it’s leadership or just life, right?

That [00:19:00] the yeah, not, yeah, again, it just I feel like the title of this book, becoming yourself kinda like a mantra, become like what is and yet there’s the always the underlying contradiction. It’s but you already are yourself.

Jiryu: You already are yourself. And also it doesn’t Buddhism say there’s no self anyway, there’s all kinds of problems with it.

But I find when I, and then, I bring up this topic and people say, but what about, I thought there was no self. And, but what about the fact for me, as I, one of my favorite expressions from the book is. He’s saying versions of this all the time, our way of sitting is for you to just become yourself.

Our moment by moment is just you, simply as yourself. Or this one of the point is to learn to be yourself as completely as a stone. As a stone. And I don’t know exactly what that means, but I just feel like this sort of permission to be exactly what’s here in a way that creates some freedom from what’s here.

[00:20:00] This not needing to be any other than any way other than I am. And that doesn’t mean like justification for me being petty because actually that’s not really how I am at the bottom of my heart. I don’t wanna justify being petty. I wanna find something deeper. And that’s my authentic being too.

But just that I have what I need to rely on and it’s here in this shared being alive kind of presence together. And that I don’t need to reach for anything. I don’t need to change anything. Exactly. But I do wanna deeply share the feeling of be intimate with what’s here. There is a piece that I I wonder if I could get your thoughts on that, is about leadership really in I don’t know if you came across this section or had come across it before in the unedited talks of sushi in this in this version it’s on 1 24.

He has this he’s talking about how we practice [00:21:00] ethics, and he uses this image of a couple images. One he uses the image of, so in our formal and practice of chanting, we have this drum called the GIO that keeps the time. And so he says, and so the person leading is kinda like the person.

Playing the drum is, thinks that they’re setting the pace of the chant. And I could I read you what he says about that? Because I think it’s beautiful. And I think it will, it’ll make sense to anyone who thinks that they can lead anybody. So he says first, oh my gosh. This is what you said.

You said like every line is like a lifetime, of study. So before the part that I wanted to read, he says, when we think about how to cope with the problems we have in our everyday life, we realize how important it is to practice azen, to practice meditation. I love that [00:22:00] when we think about how it’s wow, it’s hard to cope with these everyday problems.

That’s where the wish to meditate. It’s beautiful. The power of practice will help us in a true sense. But then he says, okay, for instance, while chanting with a group, when you strike the GIO or wooden drum, if you try to control the chanting thinking, this is too fast. I must make the chanting slower, or This is too slow, I must make it a little faster.

And you try to do so by the way, by way of your hand or your thinking, it doesn’t work. Only when you do it from your horror, your vital center, can you do it When you do it just by your thinking or your hand, it doesn’t work. The group will not follow your rhythm. Only when you do it with your zazen power can you control it.

When you can control yourself very well without having any idea of [00:23:00] controlling anything, you can set the right pace when you can control yourself. In the same way that you sit in Zazen posture, you can control the chanting perfectly. This is also true with your everyday practice. And then he says, this line that I’ve been carrying around now for years as I’ve been working on editing this book.

When you do something just through your skill or your thought, you will not be supported by people. And so it will not help others. Only when you do it with Zaza in mind can you help others and be naturally supported by people. So like when you’re separating, you separate from others and then think that you can do something with your skill or your hand in the case of the drummer, that you can be separate from it and control it isn’t gonna work because you’re not letting people support you.

That line of course, you’re not gonna be able to support the people if you’re not letting them [00:24:00] support you. And that’s what Zazen is receiving that support.

Marc: Yeah, no, thank you for, thank you so much for bringing this back to leadership J no. And I, in, in, in my day job where I’m teaching, working with leaders, I often come back to y yeah, there’s a lot of skills and strategies and things, so not that you shouldn’t learn how to hit the drum, and I like teaching people how to hit the drum or how to chant or in, out in the world.

Here are some skills and strategies for how to have difficult conversations but none of them will work. They’re pointless without the, what you’re calling zazen mind, which I might just call presence, pre presence, or. Open heart open like beginners something, a kind of leadership presence.

’cause I can remember a leader who I was [00:25:00] working with who didn’t understand why no one seemed to trust him or follow him, but his body just exuded defensiveness. And and that was, that was the work of the body, the work of or one’s full presence and yeah.

And meditation or zazen as the practice for actually accessing at that deeper level of, again, I get it again, coming back to our own leadership presence. Vital presence. Heartfelt presence is beautiful. That passage.

Jiryu: Share. Yeah. The sharing and the feeling.

The being intimate, the being present. That’s all. Also by zen, by meditation and that kind of settling the body and mind a little bit so that you can see what’s here and be with it. And this thing for me that I don’t know for you, but I get trapped thinking that to be generous with myself it’s not necessarily that I want to control for control’s sake.

It’s, I wanna support [00:26:00] people. I wanna support people, and I feel like it’s my responsibility to support people. But then I put my, I separate myself from that, from them, and I feel like I’m over here supporting them. And then Suzuki rashi’s reminding me Judy, that’s not gonna work. If you’re not be, if you’re not noticing that you’re supported by them, you’re not gonna, the things you do to try to support them are because there’s not the intimacy.

It’s not it can’t go one way like that you. You have to join the chanting, and then from joining the chanting, you can lead the chanting. He talks about this other image in Zen. I forget if it made it into this final version, but in the same kind of conversation, he uses this zen image, which he uses, I think, in his other books too, or it’s around in the zen tradition of driving the wave and following the wave.

I don’t know if you’ve studied that one, but it’s like you’re pushing the wave, but also you’re pushed by the wave and it’s a little bit like you’re leading the chanting, but also you’re following the chanting.

Marc: I recently was with [00:27:00] a, a new group of people who had very little chanting experience and just, my instructions were.

Just notice, notice, notice the chanting, and of course, notice your own voice. Your voice, this pace, the, the sound that you’re making and notice the sound that others are making. And it’s not exactly like you can experiment with harmonizing. You can experiment with not harmonizing and seeing how that goes.

And really I think, our leadership and life and relationships is a lot like that. Like part of it, it’s like just being curious about other people’s experience, being curious about, I often like I’ll walk into where there’s about to be a meeting and I’m like, oh what’s the energy here?

What’s hap are pe are people happy to be here? Are they nervous about being here? What’s the energy and what energy am I? And then what energy am I bringing? And what’s the dance that we’re doing, that we’re doing together? And where would I like this to [00:28:00] go and where do they, where would they like this to go?

And all of that. But then again, coming back to I think as much as I can, I, bringing in my, just opening my heart. Okay what’s happening here?

Jiryu: And trusting that a little bit more than your idea. And that’s the, for me, the basic thing about meditation practices and is like trusting presence a little more.

And trusting our ideas a little less.

Marc: Yes. I wanna read one section of the book that really I thought was just beautiful. It’s from the chapter, don’t try to figure out who you are. It says, after seeing his reflection in the water, toan wrote. This enlightenment verse, don’t try to seek yourself.

Don’t try to figure out who you are. The you found in that way is far from the real you. It is not you anymore. But when I go on my [00:29:00] way, wherever I turn, I meet myself. This verse means that you must find yourself in each zaza, in each meditation period. When you take your own step. Then wherever you go, you will meet with yourself.

I love that chapter.

Jiryu: Yeah, that’s so helpful for understanding what this is really pointing to. When we say becoming yourself it’s not become your idea, it’s become this aliveness. That it’s in everything you encounter and if you try to like step outside of it to get a hold of it, that’s not.

That’s not what we mean. I often think of we don’t need to imagine ourselves from the outside, like objects, in the world. It’s connecting with actually what does this feel like? And nobody can say anything about that really this being alive is ungraspable and boundless and deeply mysterious.

And that we can really [00:30:00] allow that feel that appreciate that and that’s what he means. Everything is ourself. Everything is our life.

Marc: Yeah. And yeah, I’ve been I’ve been studying some of Han’s teachings and I love, his talks a lot about, what seeds are you watering?

Jiryu: Yes.

Marc: And I feel like the language, I think, I love that you just used the word Ali aliveness, and it made me think about, as a practice watering the seeds of aliveness. And you’ve used the word intimacy a lot here. So water watering the seeds of intimacy and aliveness as a practice.

So if there’s if there is just by chance any takeaway from this conversation, I, maybe that’s it. That’s part of it. But anything else you would like to say today? Thanks so much, Jiryu. This has been wonderful and feels complete. Thank you very much, Jerry.

I hope you’ve appreciated today’s [00:31:00] episode. To learn more about my work, you can visit Jiryu lesser.net. And if you’re interested in enrolling in a self-directed course. Called Seven Practices of a Mindful Leader, please visit Jiryu lesser courses.thinkific.com. This podcast is offered freely and relies on the financial support from listeners like you.

You can donate@Jiryulesser.net slash donate. Thank you very much.

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The post Navigating Leadership Through Presence appeared first on Marc Lesser.

Aiming For Aimlessness

“Your purpose is to be yourself.”

“The Third Door of Liberation is aimlessness. There is nothing to do, nothing to realize, no program, no agenda…Your purpose is to be yourself.” – Thich Nhat Hanh

In this issue:

Aiming For AimlessnessPodcast: Mindful Leadership with Jiryu Mark Rutschman-Byler (Abiding Abbot of the San Francisco Zen Center)A Favorite Quote, Thich Nhat Hanh was asked, “Aren’t you worried about the state of the world?”Half Day Retreat, July 13thAnother Favorite Quote, from Dogen, about how we limit ourselves

We are taught, trained, and measured to aim. From an early age, we are strongly encouraged to set goals, chase ambitions, and measure our worth by what we achieve. It is one of the insidious diseases of our time. Striving toward a successful future becomes a way of life, a kind of internal engine—always pushing forward, rarely pausing. This constant striving breeds not satisfaction, but anxiety, exhaustion, and a subtle sense of insufficiency.

The idea of aimlessness might seem radical, lazy, or irresponsible. But what if, paradoxically, aimlessness held the key to a more sustainable, joyful, and authentic kind of success? What if the practice of aimlessness might lead to both greater satisfaction, creativity and effectiveness?

To be aimless doesn’t mean to lack direction. It means to see and appreciate what is right in front of you. It means to work and create and grow, not from fear or a sense of lacking, but from presence, curiosity, and trust. In Zen practice, the concept of “non-attainment” or “no gaining idea” invites us to release our grip on outcomes. The point isn’t to have no goals or aspirations—it’s to relate to them differently.

Aimlessness is not easy in a culture obsessed with optimization. We’re praised for being busy, admired for burning out in the name of success. What if we learned to live from a deeper place—not trying to bolster an identity pushed on us by our parents and our culture, but instead what if we look inward to uncover our true nature and look outward for what we might offer others.

Letting go doesn’t mean giving up. It means allowing space for your life to unfold in surprising ways. In doing so, we just might find ourselves arriving at places we hadn’t even known to dream of.

Aimlessness invites us to tune into a different rhythm—one where goals and aspirations can act as a guide, but are not the measure of our worth. Here, we do the work not just to get somewhere or to prove something, but because the work itself is meaningful, purposeful, and can be sacred. We act with clarity, and with a sense of wonder. We can discover real rest without feeling guilty. We listen to our lives and to life, and allow our path to be shaped by both surrender and by strategy.

Integrating aimlessness into daily work and relationships is a practice. It asks us to shift our internal compass—from the rigid “what should I be achieving?” to the more interesting and honest “what is emerging here?” It isn’t about rejecting ambition—it refines it. You can still want to write the book, start the business, make the change, even create various kinds of wealth. But those aspirations are rooted in alignment and generosity rather than anxiety. These wholesome ambitions create healthy soil and support surprising bloom.

Aiming for aimlessness isn’t a contradiction. It’s a deeper aim, a different way of being in the world—one that honors both movement and stillness, both aspiration and acceptance, with confidence and humility. It teaches us that success is not just about reaching goals, but about the quality of attention we bring to each step along the way.

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(Tassajara, Zen Mountain Center)

Aiming for aimlessness isn’t the end of ambition—it’s the beginning of finding real, durable freedom. And in that freedom, we may find a new and lasting kind of success we didn’t know we were looking for.

Practices:

Let go of identifying with what you have accomplished or might accomplish.

There is no need to wait in order to be satisfied and happy.

Explore being satisfied and happy right now, regardless of your circumstance or the circumstances of the world.

Try on integrating being highly ambitious when it comes to solving real problems and highly aimless/satisfied at the same time.

Mindful Leadership Podcast: Navigating Wise Leadership with Jiryu Mark Rutschman-Byler

San Francisco Zen Center Abiding Abbott Jiryu Rutschman-Byler unfolds Suzuki Roshi’s teachings around the idea of “becoming yourself.” It’s not about solidifying a fixed identity but rather embracing a fluidity that allows for authenticity and intimacy.

We discuss a new book coming out in July, Becoming Yourself, a collection of talks by Shunryu Suzuki, edited by Jiryu and Mel Weitsman.

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We talk about the challenges and rewards of stepping into leadership roles and how the practice of intimacy is essential. Mark shares that to effectively lead, one must first trust in being present and supported by those they lead. This mutual support is where true influence and effectiveness as a leader lie.

A Favorite Quote

Vietnamese Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh was asked: “Aren’t you worried about the state of the world?”

He takes a breath and says: “What is most important is to not allow the anxiety you feel about what happens in the world to fill your heart. There is tremendous suffering in the world, but it need not paralyze us. If we don’t know how to breath, smile, and live every moment of our lives deeply, we will never help anyone.”

Half Day Retreat, Sunday, July 13th, In Person and Online

In our world of busyness, of more/faster/better, this half-day retreat offers time to stop, reflect, and renew. We will explore the practices of effort and effortless as a path to well-being and “stepping into your life.” Together we’ll follow a gentle schedule of sitting and walking meditation, a talk, and some discussion. Anyone looking to begin or deepen a meditation and mindfulness practice is invited to attend.

Another Favorite Quote (From Genjo Koan, Koan of Everyday Life, by Dogen)

“When you sail out in a boat to the midst of ·an ocean where no land is in sight, and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular, and does not look any other way. But the ocean is neither round nor square; its features are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It only looks circular as far as you can see at that time. All things are like this. Though there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions, you see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach.”

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Warmest regards,

Marc

The post Aiming For Aimlessness appeared first on Marc Lesser.

Where Is There A Place Where There Is No Heat And No Cold?

Resistance and Letting Go of Resistance

A student asks the teacher, “How do you avoid the discomfort of hot and cold?”

The teacher said, “Go to that place where there is no hot and cold.”

The student asked, “Where is that place?”

The teacher responds, “When you are hot be thoroughly hot, and when you are cold, be thoroughly cold.”

This classic Zen story can be read literally, but mostly it is intended as metaphor, and as a teaching story to notice how much energy we put into resisting what is, to seeking comfort, and a path to living with greater freedom in a world that is highly imperfect (or perfectly imperfect…)

The real, or underlying question is – How can I avoid difficult, uncomfortable, or painful situations? Or, more to the point – how can I find peace, or how can I find freedom in a world that is uncertain, unpredictable and at times unpleasant or at times horrible? The initial response is — find a place where there is no difficulty. Yes, this is a “trick” answer.

The teacher says – explore being completely where and who you are, without wavering, without judgment, without wanting to be anything or anywhere other than exactly as you are – hot, cold, happy, angry, impatient, lonely, loving… If you want to find peace, let go of wanting your situation to be different than it is. Be completely as you are. In fact, hot and cold are quite subjective.

Most of us spend a tremendous amount of time and energy seeking comfort, and resisting or complaining about the world as it is and our lives as they are. We like comfort and predictability (I do!) and dislike being uncomfortable and uncertain.

Leadership and Discomfort

I still have my original copy of The Fifth Discipline, a best-selling leadership and business book by Peter Senge. Senge asserts that staying with the discomfort of the gaps between “what is” and “what we aspire to” may be the most important quality of a leader. As leaders we are nearly always experiencing gaps – aspiring to meet financial goals, creating products and services, building teams, and on and on. There is no avoiding those gaps. Avoiding these gaps, through busyness or lowering our goals, comes at a large cost to accomplishing what matters.

There is something refreshing and important about staying with the discomfort of feeling and living with these gaps – in business, relationships, and all parts of our lives.

Practices

Notice how much energy you expend in seeking comfort and certainty and resisting the difficulties of your life and the world.

Explore being thoroughly hot and thoroughly cold – thoroughly appreciative, disappointed, angry, loving… Letting go of wanting things to be other than they are. And, at the same time, working for positive change.

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What I’m Reading

I don’t read many novels and right now find myself in the middle of two.

Stone Yard Devotional by Charlotte Wood – a quiet, reflective novel about a woman who retreats to a former convent seeking solitude and connection with her spiritual life. Beautifully written.

Convenience Store Woman, by Sayaka Murata – Very quirky novel that explores purpose, identity, and the pressure to conform.

Podcast: Mindful Leadership

New Episode! Ep. 50: How to Catch Sparks & Lead with Heart

In our newest episode of Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, we explore the invisible threads of connection, inspiration, and presence — what I call catching sparks. This episode is an invitation to show up fully — with breath, heart, and attention.

At the core of the conversation is a simple yet profound truth: We bring our entire life to each moment we experience.

Listen Now → https://marclesser.net/zen-bones-podcast/

What You’ll Hear in This Episode:
– Mindful breathing and centering as the foundation of leadership
– How “catching sparks” can fuel personal growth and deeper relationships
– The energy we exchange in every interaction — and how to become more intentional
– Why love, presence, and connection are at the heart of true leadership
– How nature, people, and even music can ignite transformation

Half Day Retreat, Sunday, July 13th, In Person and Online

In our world of busyness, of more/faster/better, this half-day retreat offers time to stop, reflect, and renew. We will explore the practices of effort and effortless as a path to well-being and “stepping into your life.” Together we’ll follow a gentle schedule of sitting and walking meditation, a talk, and some discussion. Anyone looking to begin or deepen a meditation and mindfulness practice is invited to attend.

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Warmest regards,

Marc

The post Where Is There A Place Where There Is No Heat And No Cold? appeared first on Marc Lesser.

The Practice of Catching Sparks

In this milestone 50th episode of Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, we explore the art of catching sparks—those subtle, powerful moments of connection, inspiration, and presence that can transform how we live and lead.

Marc draws from his experiences as a CEO, Zen teacher, and leadership coach to reflect on how mindfulness, breath awareness, and love help us tune into the energy exchanged between people. With references to Thich Nhat Hanh, Bob Dylan, and the power of nature, this episode invites listeners to become more awake to life’s offerings — and to practice offering their own sparks in return.

Whether you’re a leader, a seeker, or someone navigating a life transition, this episode offers practical and poetic insights for deeper connection, personal growth, and purposeful leadership.

In this milestone 50th episode of Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, we explore the art of catching sparks—those subtle, powerful moments of connection, inspiration, and presence that can transform how we live and lead.

Marc draws from his experiences as a CEO, Zen teacher, and leadership coach to reflect on how mindfulness, breath awareness, and love help us tune into the energy exchanged between people. With references to Thich Nhat Hanh, Bob Dylan, and the power of nature, this episode invites listeners to become more awake to life’s offerings — and to practice offering their own sparks in return.

Whether you’re a leader, a seeker, or someone navigating a life transition, this episode offers practical and poetic insights for deeper connection, personal growth, and purposeful leadership.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

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[00:00:00] Marc: Welcome to Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, a biweekly podcast featuring conversations with leaders and teachers exploring the intersection of keeping our hearts open and effective action in these most uncertain and challenging times. Please support our work by making a donation at Marc lesser slash donate.

Welcome to today’s practice session. We’ll start with a short sitting, uh, do a little practice together. I’ll say a few words about the topic and then maybe we’ll, we’ll end with a few minutes of sitting together.[00:01:00]

Marc (00:05)
Let’s begin by doing some sitting practice together. And I am going to ring my trusty bell.

the Bell’s invitation.

to pause.

I’m just noticing.

What is it like to be here? What is it like to be alive?

For me, taking a few deep breaths.

grounding, know, grounding the body.

I read recently ⁓ centeredness as the number one quality of a leader. I would probably say the number one quality of a human centeredness.

Again, with each breath, returning to your center. What is the center?

in allowing the breath to be smooth and fluid.

and trying on the mindset of nothing lacking, nothing lacking. What if everything, everything you need is right here.

Breathing in, I’m aware that I’m breathing in and breathing out. I’m aware that I’m breathing out.

I think of the ⁓ Thich Nhat Hanh meditation poem, he says, calm, ease, smile, release.

present moment.

Wonderful moment.

And again, whether it’s wonderful or not, know, whatever you’re feeling, it’s all.

Practice, practicing being, appreciating, appreciating each breath, each unique, unique breath.

that bell. It’s another ⁓ invitation to come on back, come on back and join me. Lovely to be here with you. I hope you are doing well.

I’ve been thinking about and talking about and practicing with the practice of what I’m calling catching sparks, catching sparks. And I ⁓ I was inspired by watching the ⁓ the film about the life of Bob Dylan called A Complete Unknown.

And it’s a biopic about the early days of Bob Dylan’s emergence as a music icon. And he seeks out and finds his hero, one of his heroes, Woody Guthrie, who’s hospitalized in New Jersey. And he finds him, you know, and he sees Woody lying in bed, ⁓ unable to speak. And Pete Seeger happens to be there singing a song to

⁓ to Woody Guthrie as Dylan walks in and Pete turns to a young Bob Dylan and says, you know, who are you? And he says, my name’s Bob, Bobby. And he says, why are you here? And ⁓ Dylan walks up and looks at, ⁓ makes eye contact with Woody Guthrie and he says, I’m here to catch some sparks. I’m here to catch some sparks.

And it made me realize how much of my own life and my own growth has been catching sparks from others. I’ve had so many wonderful mentors and teachers and people in my life who just being around them has been a great joy and great learning and…

The other day I found myself doing a training with a group of hospice workers. And I was sitting in a circle of hospice volunteers and staff members of a hospice. And I could feel the energy in the room of something about people who spend a good deal of their waking hours.

supporting people who are dying. I could feel the energy of the room and ⁓ I said as I looked around that I was here both ⁓ to catch some sparks from them, that I could feel the depth of their energy, feel what they had, how they had learned and were growing by being around, you know, life and death. And at the same time I said my hope in this time we had together that

that ⁓ I was there.

to hopefully maybe they could catch a spark, catch some sparks from me and all of my life energy and what I had, ⁓ the ways that I had grown. And that as we started this meditation together, my instructions were, can you feel that you are bringing your entire life

right now. And I would say that’s true now, you know, to anyone. As you are listening to me, you are bringing your entire life, your entire being to this moment. This, you don’t have to pretend or make it up. It’s true. I feel it. I feel it right now as I’m, as I’m speaking, as I’m

speaking and listening and feeling the weight, the gravity and the lightness and the joy of all that I’ve been given and my aspiration to give it away, to give it away to you. I hope you can feel it. And I think this ⁓ catching sparks can be a valuable and healthy way to

approach our work, our relationships and all parts of our lives. What a simple and vital approach, right? Wherever you go, being open, what sparks might you catch? You know, of course, from the people, but also from the clouds, the mountains, the stones, the rivers, the ladybugs, they all

They all have sparks to offer. And at the same time, you know, bringing awareness, what sparks might you have to offer? What sparks might you have to offer?

And this simple, profound practice reminds me a little bit of a line of poetry from David White that I carry around where he says, anything or anyone that does not bring you alive is too small for you. Anything or anyone that does not bring you alive is too small for you. It’s all about the sparks.

that we catch and that we give that bring us alive.

Yeah, so in some way, my, you know, my ongoing aspiration is to, to make myself into someone who has sparks to offer. And I put this out there as a, as a practice, you know, of making yourself into someone who has sparks to offer.

And this also reminds me of, I’ve been studying some of Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings, his practice, when he talks about the practice of right view. And in some way, I think this.

Forging ourself into someone who has sparks to offer and is always open to receiving sparks is a kind of view. You know, so he says on this practice of right view Thich Nhat Hanh says, you know, when one person comes up to us, the very sight of him makes us uncomfortable. But when someone else walks by, we like him or her right away. Something in us.

Something in each of those people touches a seed in us. If we love our mother deeply, but feel tense every time we think of our father, it’s natural that when we see a young person who looks like our mother, we appreciate her. And when we see a person who evokes the memory of our father, we feel uncomfortable. So in this way, we can see, we can feel the seeds that are in us.

when we become aware of the seeds in our storehouse, we’ll not be surprised by our own behavior or the behavior of others. So this is our storehouse. And in some way, this practice of feeling sparks, catching sparks, and giving sparks can be a way to notice.

notice our habit energy and transform our habit energy. And, know, Thich Nhat Hanh suggests the practices of

when it comes to right view of asking ourselves, you know, am I sure? Am I sure? What am I sure about? And his other suggested practice is.

Hello habit energy, right? To notice our habit energy.

And one other practice that he suggests about right view is ⁓ opening up to feeling love, the energy of love. And I think that’s what this, you know, using language, our language is quite ⁓ dual and limited.

But when I talk about the practice of catching sparks, I think it’s feeling the love and the meeting, the meeting of.

the love that comes from us and the love that’s coming toward us, meeting it, that meeting, that meeting of sparks. I’ve been, I’ve been playing a game lately with my, two year old grandson. We actually, this game, this game is with my six year old grandson, this particular game of, it’s a game that we call

catching sparks and we jump together on the trampoline. We jump and we jump and we’re doing it with great ⁓ enthusiasm and then we stop and we gently, gently put our index fingers almost touching and there’s a spark of static electricity and it hurts a little bit and it’s

joyful and and we both we both kind of laugh and feel the amazing energy of this electricity and this literally this spark of static electricity so ⁓ I feel that often when I’m especially when I’m teaching you know when I’m with people who

you know, who are dropping, dropping into our own ⁓ love, our own energy of love and feeling, feeling the sparks.

Yeah, so maybe, maybe experimenting with the practice of ⁓ catching sparks and offering sparks, ⁓ feeling, feeling the love, feeling the love again and again.

Yeah, so let’s keep practicing together. Let’s keep practicing catching sparks, offering sparks, and catching sparks with great open minds and open hearts. Thank you.

I hope you’ve appreciated today’s episode. To learn more about my work, you can visit Marc lesser.net, and if you’re interested in enrolling in a self-directed course, called Seven Practices of a Mindful Leader, please visit www.Marclesser.courses.thinkific.com. This podcast is offered freely and relies on the financial support from listeners like you.

You can donate@marclesser.net slash donate. Thank you very much.

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What The Hell Is Time?

An Approach To Living More Wholeheartedly With Impermanence

“The fundamental problem is that this attitude towards time sets up a rigged game in which it’s impossible ever to feel as though you’re doing well enough. Instead of simply living our lives as they unfold in time – instead of just being time, you might say – it becomes difficult not to value each moment primarily according to its usefulness for some future goal, or for some future oasis of relaxation you hope to reach once your tasks are finally ‘out of the way’”…

– Oliver Burkeman, 4,000 Weeks, Time Management For Mortals

Insights Into Practice – TimePodcast Conversation With Oliver BurkemanHalf Day Retreat, July 13thWhat I’m Watching – Richard Baker, Living In Relationship

There is a story, that may be about time, from David Foster Wallace’s 2005 commencement speech:

There are two young fish swimming along.
They happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says:

“Morning, boys. How’s the water?”

The two young fish swim on for a bit.
Eventually, one of them looks over at the other and says:

“What the hell is water?”

We humans are often like fish swimming in the sea of time. What we call time is invisible, ungraspable, and yet is so intertwined with our being, it can be easy to forget its essentialness. We struggle with, or forget about, or are just confused or terrified by time.

In the introduction to Oliver Burkeman’s best-selling book he says:

“The average human lifespan is absurdly, terrifyingly, insultingly short. Here’s one way of putting things in perspective: the first modern humans appeared on the plains of Africa at least 200,000 years ago, and scientists estimate that life, in some form, will persist for another 1.5 billion years or more, until the intensifying heat of the sun condemns the last organism to death. But you? Assuming you live to be eighty, you’ll have had about four thousand weeks.”

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He goes on to say:

“Our troubled relationship with time arises largely from this same effort to avoid the painful constraints of reality. And most of our strategies for becoming more productive make things worse, because they’re really just ways of furthering the avoidance. After all, it’s painful to confront how limited your time is, because it means that tough choices are inevitable and that you won’t have time for all you once dreamed you might do. … And so, rather than face our limitations, we engage in avoidance strategies, in an effort to carry on feeling limitless. We push ourselves harder, chasing fantasies of the perfect work–life balance…”

What to do? Practice.

As Ram Dass so eloquently says in the title of his book from the 1970’s — Be Here Now!

Or as Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh teaches – explore practicing the Seven Miracles of Mindfulness. These could be called the Seven Miracles of Not Avoiding Impermanence:

1) Be present – Notice you are here, alive, breathing. Just appreciate being alive. This requires stopping, stepping out of the stream of busyness, doing, worrying, and achieving. It starts with noticing when you are not present. Meditation is the most effective way I know to be able to do this…

2) Notice others – Be aware that you are not alone. Be curious about other’s experience.

3) Nourish others – Practice kindness. How can you support others?

4) Aspire to relieve other’s suffering – Allow the intention of healing to arise.

5) Look deeply – Go beneath the surface of your awareness. What are you feeling?

6) Cultivate Understanding – explore the deeper questions of what brings you here? What really brings you here? How are you swimming in time? What matters most?

7) Transformation – As the next moment arises, now what? What’s possible? Practice with warmhearted wonder and curiosity.

“Practicing the Seven Miracles of Mindfulness helps us lead a happy and healthy life, transforming suffering and bringing forth the peace, joy, and freedom.”

– Thich Nhat Hanh

Podcast Conversation With Oliver Burkeman

Oliver Burkeman is an acclaimed journalist, author and thinker whose work offers a refreshing perspective on productivity, time management, and the pursuit of a meaningful life. He is the author of 4,000 Weeks, Time Management For Mortals.

Why Listen:

1. Discover how rethinking your approach to time can lead to a more fulfilling and productive life. Oliver Burkeman shares insights from his book “4,000 Weeks” on the unrealistic standards we set around time and how embracing our finiteness can liberate us.

2. We discuss how Zen philosophy can help you move beyond mere intellectual understanding and foster a deeper, more intuitive approach to life’s challenges.

3. Explore the delicate balance between maintaining control and encouraging creativity within your team or organization. Marc and Oliver discuss how letting go of excessive control can actually enhance innovation and productivity.

Tune into the full episode of “Mindful Leadership” to dive deeper into these topics and the exploration of a more present and impactful way of living.

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Half Day Retreat, Sunday, July 13th, In Person and Online

In our world of busyness, of more/faster/better, this half-day retreat offers time to stop, reflect, and renew. We will explore the practices of effort and effortless as a path to well-being and “stepping into your life.” Together we’ll follow a gentle schedule of sitting and walking meditation, a talk, and some discussion. Anyone looking to begin or deepen a meditation and mindfulness practice is invited to attend.

What I’m Watching: Dharma Talk, Video

Richard Baker, Living In Relationship

Richard, Baker-Roshi was my Zen teacher for the 10 years I was a resident of the San Francisco Zen Center. He recently gave this talk at the City Center. He addresses how our primary objective in Zen is to prevent war and that we do this by living in relationship.

Warmest regards,

Marc

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