The Miracle of Each Moment
Marc converses with his longtime friend Kaz Tanahashi, a renowned calligrapher, Zen teacher, peace activist, author and translator of Buddhist texts. They explore Zen in everyday life, creativity, leadership, and the importance of presence. Kaz shares insights from his activism—including efforts to combat nuclear weapons and reforest the Amazon—while reflecting on his profound contributions to Zen teachings and mindfulness.
Support the podcast at https://marclesser.net/donate/
In this episode, Kaz invites you to support reforestation efforts in the Amazon. By donating to the Amazon Reforest Alliance, you can plant trees that help reverse climate change and restore the rainforest. Plant your tree today: https://inochi-earth.org/amazon-tree-project.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Marc: Welcome to Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, a biweekly podcast featuring conversations with leaders and teachers exploring the intersection of keeping our hearts open and effective action in these most uncertain and challenging times. Please support our work by making a donation at Mark lesser slash donate.
[00:00:38] Marc: I am very happy to be meeting with Kaz Tanahashi, who’s been a good friend and colleague for many, many years. Uh, Kaz Kaz is one of the premier translators of Dogen The. Uh, renowned Zen teacher from Japan in the 13th century. He has written many, many books. He is [00:01:00] a calligraphy teacher and, and an activist.
[00:01:03] Marc: He’s done a lot of work in the realm of, uh. Nuclear weapons. He and I, uh, he, he brought me in to help him with a nonprofit. He started, uh, a world without armies. Our conversation, uh, amazing, amazing conversation about Zen in everyday life, creativity, leadership, and life. And. Behind me is one of his, uh, beautiful calligraphy pieces that says, um, underneath it says the miracle of each moment.
[00:01:33] Marc: So, uh, please, uh, join us for the miracle of Kaz Tanahashi. Um, I’m happy to be here with him now.
[00:01:43] Marc: Kaz Tanahashi It is, uh, it’s a delight to [00:02:00] be here with you and I’m actually, as you know, just in the next room ’cause I’m in your studio. So we got to, uh, I haven’t seen you in a while, but I think we first met about 50 years ago. Uh, when you were brought, you were brought into the San Francisco Zen Center mm-hmm.
[00:02:17] Marc: As a, as a scholar. And you’ve been a leading. Translator of Dogen, but also just a leading figure in the world of mindfulness and Buddhism. Buddhism in America. And, and we were just talking about several books that you’re working on. Um, you mentioned a book on the, uh, on the Avatamsaka Sutra.
[00:02:43] Kaz: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:43] Marc: A book on aging, A book on Dogen
[00:02:46] Marc: So I love how, um. Have you always been so lazy? I think, you know,
[00:02:54] Kaz: um, I’m too lazy to, to be [00:03:00] ineffective, so, um, kind of, yeah, that’s kind of not doing so much.
[00:03:11] Marc: Well, you, you’re a great teacher for me in you somehow. Um. Get an awful lot done for, for someone who seems not, uh, not stressed
[00:03:29] Kaz: at all, I think, you know, maybe we need to focus on things when we are playing or working, but also the best way to focus is to be relaxed.
[00:03:46] Kaz: Joy. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:03:50] Marc: Yeah. Do, do you, I think of it as maybe the kind of practice of wholeheartedness. [00:04:00] Mm-hmm. Like you seem, you seem so completely doing with whatever you’re doing. Wholeheartedness or maybe, uh, gener, generosity is the other word that like a, a radical, profound generosity.
[00:04:16] Kaz: Well, I, I try to, uh, be fully present.
[00:04:22] Kaz: So for, for you, for others, for myself, just, uh, uh, not to think about going somewhere else or doing something better, but this moment is a miracle. You know, we have, uh, 3 trillion cells. Now body and most of them need to be working fairly well. To be able to even breathe. Breathing is a miracle. You know, our [00:05:00] life, each moment is miracle.
[00:05:02] Kaz: So, uh, we might like not to waste our time just kind of. Struggling and then, uh, sort of complaining and fighting. You know, we should, uh, maybe appreciate each moment and then, uh, make the best of, of friendship encounter. That is a miracle too. So we need to.
[00:05:41] Kaz: Be grateful. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:05:45] Marc: Mm-hmm. Well, I’m, uh, I’m appreciating this moment right now with, with you, and it’s, um, you know, we’re, we’re both,
[00:05:54] Kaz: yeah,
[00:05:55] Marc: we’re both, we’re both alive
[00:05:57] Kaz: and, and, and we’re here and that’s quite [00:06:00] amazing. You know, that’s really amazing. I am almost 92 years old. In a few weeks I’ll be 92.
[00:06:09] Kaz: Being still active. And then my wife said, you know, you don’t work for anybody, so you can’t retire.
[00:06:20] Marc: I was actually, um, quoting you. I I did a, a workshop this morning for a group of, uh, doctors. Oh, and I, I mentioned. And I said, um, I often use some, a quote of yours that I learned many, many years ago, which is, um, if you learn to enjoy waiting mm-hmm.
[00:06:42] Marc: You don’t have to wait to enjoy. And, and now you’ve just given me another one, which is, um, um, if you don’t work for anyone, you don’t need to retire. Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s good. But you, you know, you do work for your, you do. [00:07:00] Well do you do work for yourself? You, um, you do manage to, you may not think of yourself in this way, but I think of you as an entrepreneur or maybe as entrepreneur, you know?
[00:07:15] Marc: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:17] Kaz: Um, I may be technically working for myself, but actually I’m kind of thinking of just being in service. Right. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
[00:07:28] Marc: That’s even better,
[00:07:29] Kaz: even better than working for yourself. You know, it’s my, I sort of, I decided to complete my life, uh, by the end of the year when I became 90 years old. So maybe I should, um, sign all my paintings throughout everything else, and, uh.
[00:07:55] Kaz: So clean up and, um, so in [00:08:00] a way my life is already completed. I’m happy about it, and the rest is service. Mm-hmm. Just kind of trying to kind of help others. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:08:16] Marc: Yeah. One of the things that you, um, mentioned when we. I first saw you this morning was that you’re working on a book, working on several books, but one, one that I’ve been wanting you to write for a long time is about a Zen teacher, Dogen
[00:08:33] Kaz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:08:35] Marc: And you’ve, you’ve probably spent more time with Dogen than maybe any other living person on, on this. Well, since
[00:08:45] Kaz: I was like 23. So. And then 27 years old, I started translating, uh, em, master Dogen, 13th century Japanese Jam Master Dogen work [00:09:00] into Moland Japanese, who is my jam master. So, um, it took me, uh, maybe eight or nine years to complete it.
[00:09:12] Kaz: And then translating, uh, Logan’s work into English. Took me like 33 years. So together it took me 50 years to complete it. In 2010. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:09:30] Marc: That’s when you, um, published the Right, the two. It’s an amazing, uh, two volume set of transfer,
[00:09:44] Kaz: you know, with many people. Um. There were 30 people at San Francisco Zen Center and beyond, and Zen Center supported me, uh, for most of the time, about 30 years, [00:10:00] just for just single book, you know, so generous. Yeah. About changes and then editor changes, but they just kind of supported this one book project.
[00:10:18] Marc: For someone say that isn’t, you know, a, uh, how about someone who is new to Dogen, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What, what would you say is the, the gift of his work or the essence of his teaching or how, how, how might you, how might you say what, what, what does Dogen have to teach us about living today in, in the 21st century?
[00:10:44] Kaz: I think often people think of Zen as kind of in search of enlightenment or satori, and then you work very hard and then you have this flesh of [00:11:00] insight, then they call it maybe potential or things through the human body. And then sort of, uh, you have this. Enlightenment experience. Uh, so d Suzuki talked about this and so a lot of the people think that way.
[00:11:22] Kaz: But Logan’s idea is, uh, when you take a form of Buddha and awake person and sit meditation, you are already a Buddha. You are enlightened and then you start, so there’s, uh, no separation between the practice of meditation or meditation related activities and enlightenment. So you start with enlightenment and you’ve [00:12:00] unfolded.
[00:12:01] Kaz: Of course, we are not mature enough, so we need to study. We need to. Uh, developed our, maybe our practice and our understanding, but, uh, all things we do, it’s kinda unfolding enlightenment, so it’s, we can be more relaxed in a way. We don’t have to look for something somewhere else and something else. Mm-hmm.
[00:12:31] Kaz: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:12:32] Marc: it makes me think of, um. His, uh, his essay or his fal, uh, instructions for Zen or the mm-hmm. Fu that so beautifully. Right. Begins with why, why practice, since we’re all. All enlightened from the beginning. We’re all essentially
[00:12:52] Kaz: right,
[00:12:53] Marc: per perfect, just as we are. Mm-hmm. Why, why go off to the dusty roads and mm-hmm.
[00:12:58] Marc: And practice [00:13:00] meditation. Right. And then the next paragraph, two of my favorite words in all of Zen are dogen’s. And yet he starts, and yet, uh, right. If there’s any, any thought of like or dislike. Arises, the mind is lost in confusion.
[00:13:20] Kaz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:13:21] Marc: So he, as you’re saying, he’s, it’s interesting. That’s an example.
[00:13:25] Marc: I think he starts with enlightenment. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But then he says, and yet we need to practice.
[00:13:33] Kaz: So, you know, in meditation we become still and be serene and, uh, but his poem is, uh. A short Japanese style
[00:13:57] Kaz: moon abiding in a [00:14:00] mind, belows break into light. So the moon is like full moon, maybe enlightenment, and then. Affected on high waves and then waves crash. So kind of millions and billions of, uh, full moons, uh, although appearing and disappearing. So very dynamic, you know, so mutation seems to be very still and serene and nothing.
[00:14:41] Kaz: It may not be happening, but actually kind of there’s an experience of entire world, the entire universe. Mm-hmm. And the great deal, deal of freedom. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. [00:15:00] Mm-hmm.
[00:15:01] Marc: That’s beautiful that that image that you just described of. The full moon and the, and the waves crashing is at least my, I’m, my sense of that is Right.
[00:15:14] Marc: The right, the full moon is enlightenment and the waves crashing are are day-to-day. Day-to-day ordinary lives.
[00:15:23] Kaz: That’s right. That’s right. Mm-hmm. And Hero was a calligrapher, sublime calligrapher. So when he was, uh, in China. Coming from Japan, kind of barbaric country, uh, he was put on the lowest seat in the, uh, monastic, uh, setting.
[00:15:48] Kaz: And then so hundreds of monks, uh, senior to him and he could not see the main teacher, and he [00:16:00] wrote a letter. Very nice letter. I still, we have, uh, maybe, uh, a copy of it and then, you know, very thoughtful letter to the, to regime. And then, you know, in East Asia people will kind of try to figure out the personality of the writer of the letter through calligraphy.
[00:16:30] Kaz: So his. Calligraphy was so careful. So even, and then, uh, noble, very kind of, uh, reflecting his noble personality, spirituality, and Bruin was very impressed. And then say, or you can come to my, um, room anytime of the day, and then you can be informal. We can [00:17:00] be like father and son. And then when he first met, he transmitted dharma.
[00:17:09] Kaz: So in a way Interesting. Of course. Uh, they must, must have asks his disciples, what is this guy doing? You know, what is, what is he like? And so in a way, without meeting, uh, Dogen, he understood that, uh, you know, this is a very, very important person, you know, so actually, you know, this letter and then this encounter changed token’s life, but also Ian’s life.
[00:17:55] Kaz: And then they actually changed the Buddhism in [00:18:00] Japan, Buddhism in China too. You know, it’s so interesting. Just one letter can, and then the language can be so powerful and it can be so decisive in the course of history in a way.
[00:18:23] Marc: I’ve, I’ve never heard that story before. And, and maybe, um, just a little background.
[00:18:28] Marc: It, you know, my, my understanding is that, you know, uh, doin, you know, really risked his life to take, you know, a few month boat across the sea of, across the sea from Japan to, uh, to China and in search of a teacher. And, um, he met many, many people. ’cause he, he wanted to find, he was so, I think, uh, passionate about wanting to find, uh, someone who could [00:19:00] answer his questions.
[00:19:02] Marc: I mean, one of his great questions, uh, was, you know, if, if we’re already fundamentally enlightened, fundamentally awake, fundamentally, one, why do we need to practice? Mm-hmm. And, um, this teacher that you just mentioned in the head of, of monastery. In China ing became his kind of fundamental teacher mm-hmm.
[00:19:24] Marc: For, for several, several years.
[00:19:25] Kaz: Yeah.
[00:19:27] Marc: So interesting that, that ing recognized, doin through his calligraphy.
[00:19:34] Kaz: Right, right. Exactly, exactly. That was the first encounter.
[00:19:39] Marc: Yeah. And then that, um, that Dogen brought, went back to Japan. Mm-hmm. And I’m, I’m always struck Kaz and I, I imagine you must certainly be, every time I read the words of, um, SRU Suzuki, you know?
[00:19:58] Marc: Mm-hmm. From like Zen Mind, beginner’s Mind or [00:20:00] his other books. So much of his teaching seems like he is leaning on or mm-hmm. Interpreting, Dogen Dogen’s teaching. Is that, is that your experience as well? Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
[00:20:17] Kaz: So I met, uh, Suzuki was in 1964. I visited, uh, ology in the earlier time in, uh, on Bush Streets, San Francisco.
[00:20:32] Kaz: And then he was teaching in, uh, former kind of synagogue. Yeah, very big buildings. And then. He and then, uh, meet the Suzuki, his wife served me tea and then we had a very nice conversation. I had a [00:21:00] kind of, uh, jacket and then tie on and, uh, uh, he said. Are you a salesman of Buddhist goods? So I says, no, no, no.
[00:21:14] Kaz: I’m kind of the master Dogen student. You know, I’m kind of, actually my master and I have been translating Zo and I said, I know you teach, uh, dozen. But what kind of text do you teach him? He said, uh, blue cliff record. Chinese kind of go on collections. So I said, uh, why not Dogen? And he says, well, Dogen is too difficult for American students.
[00:21:51] Kaz: So I said, uh, if you are teaching foreign students, don’t you think you should present your best? Don’t you think Dogen [00:22:00] is your best? And he was quiet for some time. I thought he was upset. And then he said, uh, you know, next, uh, Saturday I’m going to give a talk to my students. Would you talk about Dogen for me?
[00:22:21] Kaz: So he was very generous. I was just, uh, 30 years old. I was a kid, you know, just kind of coming, just arriving from Japan and, uh, he was so kind of open and generous to, uh. Invite me to give a talk. I mean, it’s, uh, unthinKazble nowadays, right? But anyway, because of his generosity, I sort of became, uh, kind of, uh, maybe visiting scholar color [00:23:00] Vincent later after he passed away.
[00:23:04] Kaz: And then we, we have kinda worked together. Trying to kind of, uh, introduce Dogen, uh, maybe, uh, to
[00:23:17] Marc: the Western war,
[00:23:18] Kaz: but yeah.
[00:23:20] Marc: Did you stay in San Francisco? So you said that was 1964? That was, I
[00:23:26] Kaz: stayed at, uh, YMCA and I would go to in the morning, and then he would ask me to stay for breakfast. And sometimes dinner.
[00:23:39] Kaz: And then, um, take your bath, uh, on the kind of basement of this ology. So yeah, about one, one week I kind of, I was, uh, with him, I was studying with him too, and [00:24:00] then I went away and then maybe about a year later. I went to work and then
[00:24:07] Marc: I saw him again. I think the San Francisco Zen Center building was bought, I think in 67 or 68.
[00:24:18] Marc: Were you, and did you spend time with him before he died in the, in the Zen Center building or were you back in Ja? Were you back in? I went
[00:24:29] Kaz: back to Japan, so we, we were corresponding, he was talking about, uh, kind of, um, Japan town being built and also he was talking about kind of being developed. So I did, I was part of the Gen, uh, culture institute in Japan.
[00:24:53] Kaz: I was. Translating do and then doing talks along with my [00:25:00] master. I did some fundraising and send money for, uh, Tasara. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Then I went back in 1977 to San Francisco, and then, yeah. On that time, you know, page Street. Yeah.
[00:25:22] Marc: Mm-hmm. Yes. I think, right. Richard Baker. Mm-hmm. My understanding. Invited you.
[00:25:26] Marc: Mm-hmm. Wanted thought it was by, by then, I think, um, it was, uh, quite clear the prominence and importance of, uh, Dogen’s Dogen’s teaching. Mm-hmm. To Suzuki Roshi and to the San Francisco Zen Center. Mm-hmm. Right. I’ve been, I’ve been encouraging you for, I’ve been wanting you to write, write a book to, uh, bring Dogen out to the rest of the world.
[00:25:57] Marc: Beyond, beyond just, just [00:26:00] the Zen community.
[00:26:01] Kaz: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:02] Marc: Uh, many, many, but I, his teaching is often quite deep and somewhat, somewhat inscrutable. Uh, so I think the challenge is how to, how to make it accessible without, you know, without losing. Its, um, its essence.
[00:26:24] Kaz: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:26:28] Kaz: So, yeah, I just kind of wait on the draft called, uh, a book called Inspiration, and then subtitle is Master Dogen. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:26:41] Marc: Yeah, I’m saying I, I’m, I’ve always liked, um, one word titles, inspiration.
[00:26:45] Kaz: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:46] Marc: Zen Master, Dogen Uhhuh.
[00:26:49] Kaz: And I think the kind of, maybe one unique thing about this, I talk a lot about, uh, paradoxes, you know, [00:27:00] then is a kind of, uh hmm.
[00:27:05] Kaz: Maybe unique in different, among different schools or Buddhism, just maybe favor favoring and also depending on paradoxes. So Koans are all paradoxes? Yes. Yes. And, uh, so, or, but you know, Dogen’s first kind of, uh, essay Bendowa. Of the way, uh, doesn’t have paradox. It’s very straightforward, very profound teachings.
[00:27:45] Kaz: Maybe actually all of his basic teachings are already there, uh, in Bendowa. He wrote it to him, uh, when he was wondering, [00:28:00] uh, before he revealed the first monastery. And so I kind of quote a lot of, uh, words from even from there. Mm-hmm. Fortunately, I don’t need to get permission from
[00:28:20] Kaz: translator, so anything, and then I talk about this paradox and then basically, uh. I collected 300 paradoxes from, uh, Shobogenzo, his main work and then classified them. So actually in large, three large categories. One is, uh, freedom from self, so drop away your body and mind and so forth. Get enlightened by yourself without self, something like that.
[00:28:59] Kaz: Mm-hmm. And [00:29:00] another is freedom from division, so large and small. So like a master seed contains Mount Sumeru the largest mountain in the universe in the Buddhist mythology. So mustard seed is so small. So you can see that, uh, as an attempt to, uh, become free from divisions like maybe 10,000 years in one moment.
[00:29:36] Kaz: So, so that is one thing. Another thing is, uh, freedom from conventional knowledge. Sometimes Bodhidharma did not come from India. Well, he did, but some German masters talk about it and then sort of [00:30:00] maybe, uh, leads you to be free from this kind of maybe, uh, just. From anything, any facts or any teaching or anything.
[00:30:17] Kaz: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:30:20] Marc: Yeah, that’s, um, that seems like a very, um, uh. Beautiful way, um, to unpack right Dogen’s teachings and gifts, um, from the point of view of categorizing, right? I like categorizing paradox is I, whenever I hear that word, paradox, I have to remind myself, oh, a paradox by definition is something that appears impossible, but may in fact be true.
[00:30:51] Marc: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. So it help, it helps me to, oh yeah, that’s, you know, ’cause my, my mi my mind can get, [00:31:00] I can get lost in Oh paradox. But no, it’s something that’s, you know, that looks impossible. So it’s funny when you, you mentioned that, uh, Dogen’s first essay called Bendowa didn’t have paradoxes.
[00:31:16] Marc: Hmm. I thought that sounds very paradoxical to me.
[00:31:22] Kaz: You know, like, um, bind yourself with no rope, you know? Well, maybe if you try hard, maybe you can bind yourself with rope, but how can you do it without a rope? But you know, we do it all the time. You know, our desire, we or I have to have it or I have to get this done.
[00:31:50] Kaz: You know, you don’t have to do it, but you are sort of obsessed. So that means you are bound your, uh, by why [00:32:00] no rope, you know? And we do it all the time.
[00:32:06] Marc: Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s. That’s such a fundamental zen paradox, right? That the, the, the, the, mm-hmm. This feeling that we are, um, not free, right? And we want, and that we want someone to give us the key to open up the cage so that we can free ourselves.
[00:32:31] Marc: And then the, uh, I think Dogen’s essential teaching is we’re already free. We’re already free. There’s no, we already have the key.
[00:32:41] Kaz: Hmm.
[00:32:42] Marc: You know, I, uh, great human paradox and para, I’m, I’m often suggesting that even the word zen is just a code word for human,
[00:32:55] Kaz: you know,
[00:32:55] Marc: human. The paradox of being a human being, [00:33:00] being, and especially the paradox, right, of freedom.
[00:33:04] Marc: Are we free or not free? Mm-hmm. Well, Kaz I wonder, um, anything else you would like to say here this morning about what you’re working on or anything at all? Well, now
[00:33:21] Kaz: COP30 is To happen in November in, uh, Brazil. So climate conference. And, uh, so I’ve been kind of working with people in Brazil and then people here kind of, uh, trying to, uh, plant trees in Amazon, rain forest.
[00:33:46] Kaz: Mm-hmm. So, um, in a way this maybe. We call it flying rivers, kind of a huge amount of, uh, um, vapor from the [00:34:00] ground and then going up, uh, foam clouds and rains and then regulates world temperature. So it is, uh, very crucial for the kind of, uh, world, uh, maybe sustainability. So I’ve been asking friends to donate money to plant trees in the Amazon rainforest.
[00:34:30] Kaz: So we found a very good partner in Brazil, uh, not corrupted, which is rare, uh, in Brazil. And then, you know, indigenous people and then non-indigenous people working together. So now, uh, we are sending representative from us, maybe my colleague and, uh, also [00:35:00] five people from, uh, Brazil. And then, uh, we are trying to maybe expand this project plant to your trees in Amazon Rainforest.
[00:35:16] Kaz: So. You feel this is your tree. So, you know, maybe, uh, um, so we have such a good partners. They have connection to the organizers, uh, minister of environment, and then officers and so forth. So they are kind of hosting the, uh. Nations Climate Conference, uh, bell in Northern part of, uh, um, Brazil. We are sort of, um, maybe suggesting a theme, maybe one of the sea of a conference and also [00:36:00] maybe resolution too.
[00:36:02] Kaz: We drafted the resolution and then basically, you know. I, I am hoping that the conference will make a resolution that we urge all individuals, civic societies, and governments worldwide to plant as many trees as possible. It is one of the most direct way to, uh, reduce stop and reverse. Climate change. So I, this resolution is done.
[00:36:44] Kaz: And then some governments and some people wanna plant more trees and that will help a lot. So in a way, it’s actually, we are doing some small project, but also we [00:37:00] are trying to multiply the effect and in a way that is. Maybe one good way. Find them a good language and good maybe relationship and good working together.
[00:37:18] Kaz: And then, uh, inviting people, as many people you know, worldwide to join the kind of effort, uh, something that is concrete and visible. And so we can say, oh, I planted uh, 10 trees this month, or something like that. Uh, this is kind of, uh, uh, what I’m doing and then I’m very excited about it. And then I encourage you, you know, our audience also.
[00:37:57] Kaz: To plant trees from your [00:38:00] backyard on the schoolyard in the park and maybe in Amazon Rainforest? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:13] Marc: I’ll be sure to, um, publish the, the link information so that people can participate to donate or plant trees and, and I am reminded of. You, you’ve been a tremendous, uh, activist your whole adult life.
[00:38:29] Marc: Um. You and I used to work on you. You invited me in to join you in, um, a world without armies and I know you and even before that, you and Mayumi Oda.
[00:38:42] Kaz: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:43] Marc: Were doing a lot of work on, uh, bringing awareness to the dangers of, uh, nuclear weapons.
[00:38:49] Kaz: Yeah. San Francisco Center. We did this nuclear study group, uh, which became, uh.
[00:38:57] Kaz: Maybe activity groups [00:39:00] very quickly. We did the visuals in downtown San Francisco, participated in demonstration, calling up White House and writing letters to Congress members, and then inviting speakers and showing films. Mm-hmm. We did everything, you know, to, to reverse nuclear arms race. It was awful.
[00:39:24] Kaz: You know, like in 19. 79, 19 80. And, uh, one time David Chadwick, he started, uh, world Suicide Club. So when President Reagan did San Francisco, they had a, a plaque say, welcome President Reagan World Suicide Club. So that was the street of our time. Yeah. You know, we were kind of. As humans, we were ready to wipe out [00:40:00] the surface of the, the grove, uh, multiple times.
[00:40:07] Kaz: Mm-hmm. We were actually close to the corrective suicide. Mm-hmm. And, and then, you know, things were getting worse and worse. It felt like, you know, everything we did was failure. But all of a sudden kind of, well, rain wall fell down by mistake. You know, someone kind of a spokesperson from, uh, the Eastern Germany said, uh, and said, uh oh, now, uh.
[00:40:51] Kaz: Citizens from the East can go to West Berlin anytime, uh, without uh, [00:41:00] papers. And then someone said, uh, when he said right now, so people just west into, uh, west Berlin, they couldn’t stop. And then eventually Soviet Union collapsed. And the nuclear arms stopped. So we together, you know, millions of people working separately and together we sort of, uh, avoided catastrophe.
[00:41:32] Kaz: Mm-hmm. And I think we know now this, we have this environmental catastrophe, global wars, and, uh, so we are trying to kind of, uh. Reverse that, and we feel that maybe things are not working, everything’s getting worse and worse, but uh, [00:42:00] maybe also whatever we are doing is part of the breakthroughs. We don’t know.
[00:42:07] Marc: That’s one of the more, I think, um. Uh, positive, optimistic paradoxes is things, things change slowly. Mm-hmm. And all at once, right. You
[00:42:21] Kaz: know, uh, things, things change. Everything is impermanent. So that is the most basic Buddhist teaching. And also maybe most basic fact. But so he maybe usually, we all become sick and we all become, we, uh, we all die.
[00:42:45] Kaz: So that’s, that’s one aspect of the truth. But another aspect of the truth is that, uh, whatever bad things happening in the government or [00:43:00] any kind of world situations. That can change, that will change. Nothing is unchangeable. We can change it, you know? Yeah, yeah,
[00:43:14] Marc: yeah. Yeah. Uh, I appreciate the, um, yeah, the positive, the positive aspect of impermanence.
[00:43:22] Marc: So Kaz, thank you so much. I really appreciate this opportunity.
[00:43:26] Kaz: Oh, thank youfor such a fine work. Mark. My deep appreciation.
[00:43:39] Marc: I hope you’ve appreciated today’s episode. To learn more about my work, you can visit mark lesser.net. And if you’re interested in enrolling in a self-directed course called Seven Practices of a Mindful Leader, please visit https://marclessercourses.thinkific.com/ courses.thinkific.com. [00:44:00] This podcast is offered freely and relies on the financial support from listeners like you.
[00:44:06] Marc: You can donate at marclesser.net/donate. Thank you very much.
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