Marc Lesser's Blog, page 2
June 4, 2025
Four Thousand Weeks, One Precious Moment
Marc speaks with Oliver Burkeman, author of Four Thousand Weeks, about how leaders can enhance effectiveness through mindfulness, time management, and Zen philosophy. This episode challenges conventional leadership models and offers practical insights to spark creativity and resilience. A must-listen for anyone looking to lead authentically and build thriving teams.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[music]
[00:00:00] Marc: Welcome Oliver Burkeman. I’m really pleased to get the chance to have a conversation with you.
Oliver: Likewise. Thanks very much for inviting me.
Marc: I’ve been enjoying your books a lot and, and I was just, um, teasing, teasing you a little bit by saying that I’ve never seen so many Zen teachers quoted in one book. And in, in truth, you know, a lot of my life I feel like is, I know interpreting or recontextualizing Zen practices, Zen philosophy in a way that is highly accessible. And I know that’s not, I don’t, I guess, I don’t think that’s your, uh, your motivation, but you are taking, I think, some really, you know, profoundly interesting ideas and making that, turning them into things that are highly accessible.
[00:00:53] Oliver: Um, I’m, I’m very flattered to hear it. You know, I think the thing that Zen [00:01:00] I don’t know if this is a widely recognized thing or if it’s just my personal idiosyncrasy, but what I find in zen writing especially is that it sort of, it very much kind of meets, uh, overly left brained people like me where, where we are.
It takes, it takes this sort of, uh, tendency intellectualize and understand life through the intellect. And instead of saying like, no, that’s, that’s bad, you should be meditating on the image of a flower instead or something. It sort of pushes it as far as it’ll go and says, well, okay, let’s pursue this.
Let’s pursue this until the whole edifice kind of shudders and collapses. So I really appreciate the sort of, this kind of, I don’t know if this makes any sense, but the sort of willingness to be met at the point, the kind of nerdy place that I’m, I am in terms of wanting to figure life out and then be introduced to the thought that maybe life is not figureoutable in that,
[00:01:58] Marc: in that sense.[00:02:00]
Yes. Yes. And yeah, that. I think one of the reasons your, your books have resonated with people so widely is that there’s, there’s like a, they pull the rug out from under your regular way of thinking about things, especially time, but in a way that. You feel slightly off balance, but in a way that feels good for you.
[00:02:27] Oliver: Right. And that’s a feeling I have from Zen writing. So there’s an overlap. Yeah.
[00:02:30] Marc: That’s great to hear. Yeah. What popped into my mind as you were speaking was, um, and I don’t know if this is parallel or not actually, but. people will say to me, my meditation practice, my Zazen practice really sucks.
And my response to that, I say, you know, in, in Zen, we call that bragging.
And so it’s a little bit like, maybe the parallel [00:03:00] would be. If someone were to say to you, Oh, I’m, , my time management really sucks or I’m really bad, I’m really bad at, at managing my time in the world that you’ve created, that would be a kind of bragging, you know?
[00:03:13] Oliver: Right. Yeah. No, I, I take that. I take that point. And not only the substance of it, but it’s like, there’s something important about the humor of it too, right? Which is that there’s something, there’s a lot of humor in the, in the Zen. that I’ve encountered. It’s a bit like, the sort of depth, this idea of sort of deep humor is very prevalent in Zen, and it’s, it’s like it is a lot of Jewish humor as well.
And, um, obviously, quite a few Americans Zen masters come from a Jewish background, so there’s a sort of a, there’s a big overlap in that sort of idea of some sort of deep appreciation of the absurdity of the human situation is important here too, I think.
[00:03:52] Marc: Yes. I’m curious, do you get contacted by people in the business world and leaders?
Because in a way, [00:04:00] this topic of, how we live and view, how we live and swim in the world of time is such a core leadership and business issue.
[00:04:11] Oliver: Yeah, absolutely. I do. And I’ve had some really, um, interesting and fruitful engagements there. And I’ve done a bit of sort of speaking and workshop kind of work in that world.
It’s interesting because it isn’t where I. naturally come from. Uh, I worked as a journalist for many years and of course, on some level, this is a organizational role involving collaboration, teamwork, some leadership, but it’s still something very, there’s something very sort of. Solo about even journalists in a, in a big, uh, news organization.
And then what I do now is, is, is a significant part sort of solitary and solo. So I’m always very, really interested in the interface between these sorts of [00:05:00] ideas and like how you get along in a team, how you steer, uh, uh, an organization or a department, things like this. But it’s some, it’s been a bit of an intellectual workout for me.
Cause it’s not where my. It’s not where my mind goes immediately, I suppose.
[00:05:16] Marc: I pulled out some, quotes and words from, I think mostly from, meditations for mortals and, you know, and one, well, I, I love the story that you tell about, you know, staying sane in a, in a world that’s a mess
yeah, it’s, it’s very easy to, um, be caught by, by what’s happening in our world. But I was also thinking how important I, I think humor as a practice for that and there’s a lot of suffering in the world of organizations. , working with other people can, tends to be really hard.
Right. And part of that is. , part of it is humans working together, but a lot of it is actually, I think, expectations about [00:06:00] time and expectations about what’s the aligning around what’s going to get done when. It’s interesting.
[00:06:08] Oliver: It’s almost, it’s almost easier maybe to accept in the two other sort of, you know, the, the, the two other kind of, um, relational contexts in which I’m most embedded, right?
Marriage and parenthood. In both of these, you kind of know that it comes with the territory to have your, your desires to control how time unfolds, relentlessly challenged. And if you’re just a little bit, sensitive to the situation, you know that it’s good for you as well. That this is all very much sort of gross oriented, but it’s something about the, the work world that is where that’s a little harder to accept, right?
Because. Instrumental goals are so predominant. , most people don’t have a goal for their marriage other than to have a really good marriage, but people have goals for their organizational [00:07:00] teams that go beyond, like, we all love belonging to this team. So there’s kind of difficult clashing, intentions at play and things like that, I guess.
[00:07:10] Marc: Yeah, I think people are often surprised in the world of work that it does have goals. A lot of the same challenges of the marriage in, in the human element of, of needing to figure things out with another, another person, I think it’s, it might be the, the last line you, you might know this, you, you’re, you’re like a walking encyclopedia.
I think, um, I do have a lot of quotes in my head. Yeah. So there’s a, the reference I’m thinking of, I think it’s the end, ah, it might be a roomy poem, but I’m not sure. But it’s something like, you know. Uh, one of the hardest things about a marriage is, you know, two, two imperfect birds sharing the same nest.
[00:07:55] Oliver: Hmm. I don’t know that. I love it.
[00:07:57] Marc: Yeah. And, and, and that’s, [00:08:00] I think people are surprised often. I know I was in the work world to realize that, having to align with another imperfect person and how challenging that can be.
[00:08:14] Oliver: Yeah, absolutely. I mean completely and they’re not layered on top of that.
You have the fact that so many people are kind of replaying family roles in the workplace. I realized quite early on in my life as a journalist that I was sort of slotting myself into a sort of child role relative to an editor who would who was in a parental role and and then you see that kind of I you know, I think I hope I’ve got over that at this point, but you you sort of um You see these kind of things replicating themselves and family dynamics causing all sorts of trouble and people looking for approval, but not the kind of approval you can ever really get from a manager, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Yeah. A deep [00:09:00] cauldron of stuff. I
[00:09:02] Marc: think, yeah, those, those old, um, the roles that we fall into and. I think it’s interesting. It’s true in in our marriage. It’s true in as parents, you know, how we use our own power and, um, the good use, the good use of power Yeah. But I do want to come back.
I want to come back to this, one of the things that, uh, that jumped out at me from, I think it’s early on in your book, 4, 000 weeks where you say the fundamental problem is the attitude toward that we have toward time that sets up a rigged game in which it’s impossible to feel as though you’re doing well enough.
And, and that was so like. Yeah. Like that’s, um,
you know, be, and I think it’s con it’s, it’s so much embedded in our culture that we’re, that, that we’re, it’s in our, in our language.
[00:09:58] Oliver: Yeah, no, [00:10:00] absolutely. And I think, um, you know, there are a couple of ways of looking at it, but one is simply that we are finite creatures in a, what you could call an infinite.
environment, you know, we, we can, we have so many hours in the day. We have so much energy, certain amount of attention, certain amount of intellect to get our heads around things. And yet we are bombarded by, especially today by sort of effectively infinite number of demands, things that feel like tempting possibilities, choices.
Um, and you know, I guess maybe it just, there’s this sort of problem that all sorts of psychotherapies and spiritual traditions are all trying to address in their own way, which is that we’re kind of, Um, seemingly kind of infinite minds trapped in very, very material finite bodies. Um, or it seems that way anyway, depending on your, your tradition.
Um, and so, [00:11:00] you know, we can, I can think about vastly more things that I can do. I can feel that I ought to do vastly more things than I will ever have the time to do. Or I can feel like I ought to have a degree of control or a degree of understanding of people close to me that actually is just not my gift, right?
So there’s this constant feeling of mismatch between what we can sort of envisage and what we can actually do. And I guess one of my arguments in 4, 000 weeks is that a lot of the ways in which we sort of, the pathologies of time management, you know, the ways we get distracted or procrastinate or bury ourselves in busy work, all these other things, you can kind of understand them as.
ways to avoid feeling the truth of, of our situation. I think that’s something that I really appreciate in a lot of Zen teaching as well, that sense of like, yeah, gently but firmly not [00:12:00] allowing you to carry on avoiding the reality of the situation.
[00:12:03] Marc: Well, you were, um, you were right there just starting to, you know, sound more and more like a, like a Zen teacher.
Um, and, and this. You know, in what you were saying about that we, on the one hand, right, we, um, you know, we, we, we do live in what appears to be a limited body and a limited time, you know, in the Zen world, they, they, they would maybe one of the language they might use is that we live in the relative world.
We do it where everything is relative, but we also live in this, you know, you forget exactly the, the word you used, but the. You know, the Zen world might say that we also live in this non relative world or the world of the imagination or the world even outside of consciousness or, or the, [00:13:00] the world where, um, as soon as you, as soon as you name, as soon as you reify, like non, non reification of, of things, um, and, and.
Yeah. And, and that, that idea is kind of foreign to most of our, you know, Western, especially Western culture and, and how, and, and again, I think in your writing you make, you keep bringing in that idea of the nonrelative world and making it practical and making it accessible.
[00:13:36] Oliver: This is very interesting to me cause I, I’m sort of really glad if that’s true, but it’s, you know, I, but I guess I, I’m.
Uh, it remains a bit of a mystery to me because I think that what I’m, definitely what I’m doing is in some kind of tradition of, you know, negative theology and the [00:14:00] via negativa and all these things about like there’s something really powerful in lots of traditions, I think Zen, but Christianity certainly has, certainly has its, its strand of this as well of kind of, you know, uh, repeatedly showing The, the dead ends of certain ways of thinking or of reasoning in order to sort of, yeah, to pull the rug out because what matters is where you are and what you’re in when the rug is Has, has gone, but, um, yeah, I’m, I feel like I, I don’t quite know or understand what it is that I’m gesturing to there.
I don’t know what, you know, I think there’s so much benefit just in under, in facing how things are in the, in the relative world and not indulging in quite so much compulsive avoidance of how things are in the relative world. Now the process of doing that is on some level to connect [00:15:00] to or to participate in the absolute, but I’m, I’m on much thinner ice there.
I’m fascinated, but I don’t really know what I’m talking about.
[00:15:09] Marc: Yeah. Well, again, I think, you know, yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, yeah. It’s, it’s pretty thin ice there or no, no ice there, you know, it’s
[00:15:19] Oliver: right. Okay. Yes. Maybe no one, maybe no one can talk about it. Okay. Yeah. I’ll accept that.
[00:15:24] Marc: No, I, um, I, I forget if this quote, I don’t, I haven’t memorized all of the quotes in your book.
[00:15:32] Oliver: I forgive you.
[00:15:33] Marc: You use the word control and I’m, I’m curious if you’re, you may, you probably, it’s probably in your book. There’s a very, what I think of as a. Wonderful, beautiful quote that’s in, um, it’s actually from Zen Mind Beginner’s Mind by Shinra Suzuki where he says, the best way to control your sheep or cow is to give them a wide pasture.
[00:15:55] Oliver: Yeah. No, I don’t use that quote. I think I have [00:16:00] encountered it or certainly versions of it. That idea of becoming a, uh, of, of working on sort of becoming a bigger space for things rather than bearing down on them. Well, that’s what that quote says to me anyway. I think there is a really fascinating strand of thinking that is in Zen, but it’s in all sorts of other traditions and, and in sort of sociology and social theory as well about right, this kind of ironic or seemingly upside down relationship between control and the results that we, that we really value.
in, in life. And in the new book in Meditations for Mortals, I do draw quite a bit on the work of this German social theorist, Hartmut Roser, who wrote a huge book, very well, very readable, very worth reading called Resonant, um, where he sort of makes this argument that [00:17:00] as societies, as well as as individuals, our efforts to really sort of control more and more don’t only Fail, uh, and that it would be better to ease up on that as, as the quote you, you just shared, uh, suggest, but also they kind of squeeze out or stamp out the thing, the resonance, the vibrancy that, that, that we actually appreciate.
in, in life. And that’s a sort of strange upside down thing that I feel like owes a lot to, to Zen, among others, that, that notion that the thing you thought you wanted is not the thing you want. And if, when you can sort of unclench from that sufficiently, you find that the thing you wanted was what you had all along.
Yeah.
[00:17:50] Marc: Yeah. Well, that’s, um, that’s beautiful. I, I, um, I don’t, I don’t know that book, but I, I will, um, check it out and, [00:18:00] uh, yeah, I. Uh, I use the language and I, and I find, you know, uh, my, my, my day job is, um, these days is, uh, coaching business leaders and, um, and that one of the main topics that feels like a, um, you know, parallel with as using the word resonance is the word alignment.
Right. Um, right. So instead of controlling other people, this. aspiration to align, align with other people, which, which starts with like understanding what, what these other people actually are saying and want. And, and it also, also means becoming clear about what, you know, what we, what, you know, are becoming as clear as we can about our own preferences and, you know, likes and dislikes and proclivities.
And so both, both of those, but
[00:18:58] Oliver: yeah, and of course that is part of the [00:19:00] reason that’s a useful thing for you to discuss with your clients is because, presumably, because even as you kind of let go of control here, there is a form of influence or agency or some kind of power that I still don’t really know how to talk about that, um, that arises to whatever extent you can surrender the desire to sort of dominate and, and control.
So one of the things that I’m always at pains to emphasize when I give talks and things, and I think it’s something that is. To some extent present in Zen as well is, as far as I know, is that like, we’re not talking here about letting go of control and letting go of impossible levels of goal setting or optimization or efficiency.
We’re not talking about doing all that in order to just sort of float passively through the world and You know, [00:20:00] sit, sit around. There is obviously this stereotype. And I think it is no more than that really about a lot of Eastern spiritual traditions that like, that’s the ideal state, right? The ideal state is like non engagement and just sort of doing nothing.
And I very passionately believe that, certainly based on my own experience as a human in the world, all these things we’re talking about here are the way to, um, get things done. The way to bring really cool things into reality. That these, these are not opposed. I think that’s an emphasis that isn’t always Certainly it isn’t always emphasized by sort of modern mindfulness culture as a whole,
[00:20:44] Marc: I would say.
No, definitely. And even, you know, uh, you know, the, the word, the word Zen is creeping into our language as meaning, you know, laid back, whatever. And I, I, you know, when I hear [00:21:00] that, or if someone says that to me, I say, no, I, I, I think it’s the opposite of that. It’s. It’s not avoiding painful things. It’s not, it’s not avoiding difficulty or in response to what you were just saying, you know, again, going back to, right, people think of mindfulness practice or Zen practice as the, you know, as coursing in, you know, the non doing part or maybe the absolute world.
And, and, and, but the, The practice. And again, I think what you’re writing is, is what you keep coming back to is the integration. How do you do, how do you do both at the same time? Right. Or, right. How do you achieve, you know, achieve goals, get stuff done, advocate for things, but with a, but with a spirit of maybe spaciousness or [00:22:00] acceptance, that’s the.
Too, too, too much acceptance, not, don’t get much done, too much drive, you know, without, without the spaciousness, it can feel very kind of tight and not very creative.
[00:22:18] Oliver: I think that’s completely right. And um, you know, I think when I think about it, why I’m interested in this pairing of Of, of course, all this, these opposites or whatever on some level, it’s just a completely personal therapeutic quest, right?
I have, there are two things that I, that are fairly significant in my personality. One is historically anyway, sort of being prone to anxiety and I would like that to go away, please. And then on the other hand, being kind of ambitious and I would like to salvage that if possible. Right? So it’s that sort of, it’s, it’s that sort of question, can I, am I [00:23:00] allowed to be someone who wants to sort of.
build and create and communicate in the world in a sort of active and hopefully kind of successful and remunerative way and all the rest of it. But not because I think I’m doing it to forestall a terrible calamity or not because I think I’ve got terrible self worth issues and until I’ve done a certain amount of stuff I don’t deserve to live or something.
Can you, can you sort of start from a position of really deeply accepting who you are and how the world is and all the rest of it and then just because it’s a fun way to live can you sort of?
[00:23:36] Marc: Yeah. I mean, I think for, um, for right, for writers or creatives, or maybe for anyone actually to start with what, what, what is it I have to offer and, and, and how is there, how can I do some, something positive in, in the world and that [00:24:00] world can be the world of your family or your children or your wife or.
Or the, or the world of the people who are reading your newsletter or your, your books or, or in the business world, it’s whatever, whatever, but it’s to start like, it, it, it opens the gates toward a kind of, I think, a positive ambition. I like, I’m, people are often surprised to hear me say, no, I, I, I’m very ambitious and I support this.
I know I want people who are ambitiously trying to. You know, reduce poverty, reduce violence, work with climate change like that. You have to be, you have to really be ambitious to go after this.
[00:24:46] Oliver: Right. There’s nothing intrinsically bad about ambition and then, and applied to certain ends or something very, very, very, very, uh, good about it.
Yeah. No, I think that’s, I think that’s right. But I really, you said something at the [00:25:00] beginning of that, which was to do with. Well, I’ve, I’ve completely forgotten exactly what the words were, but the suggestion that what we can be doing when we’re acting ambitiously and being creative in the world, however you define that, is, is sort of an expression of who we are and an expression of being at ease in the world rather than something you do in order to patch up or fill an inner, an inner void.
I think we have a lot of, um, very high profile people at the moment motivated by trying to fill inner voids and, um, it doesn’t, it doesn’t end prettily, but, you know, And it was, it was a fairly big realization for me and not that long ago, actually, really, in the scheme of things, when it sort of dawned on me that the reason I was being asked to, you know, write something for a particular venue or talk to a particular group of people, something like that, was not because the person making the booking wanted to test me to see if I was [00:26:00] actually good enough and to be ready to condemn me to the fiery gates of hell if I fail.
But because they already liked the thing that I was doing and would like me to do a bit more of it. I think many, many people have this kind of the same issue, right? The same sense that like the moment you’re, you have an opportunity, it actually becomes a kind of test of an unpleasant kind when in fact it can just be an opportunity to like, Do your thing, do the thing that you’re,
[00:26:27] Marc: that you’re already
[00:26:27] Oliver: good at.
[00:26:28] Marc: It’s, I think, quite, uh, profound, actually, that, you know, again, those, the various, um, erroneous assumptions that we, that we have that, and part of it, part of it, I think, is the human, you know, negativity bias, you know, that we’re, that we’re wired, we’re wired to scan for threats. We’re wired to do whatever it takes to be, right.
So from, from a, you know, uh,
you know,
[00:26:58] Marc: from a survival [00:27:00] mechanism, right? That those, there’s some positive to that. But from a, enjoying our lives and, uh, and from creativity, it’s, uh, it’s, it can really squelch, squelch that.
[00:27:12] Oliver: Yes, yes, absolutely. And also as, uh, various people, I think James Clear has written about this and several others have argued that, you know, there’s a lot of work on how.
The environment in which these things evolved has, has changed. And if I sort of, you know, if I hear a rustling in the bushes and I’m struck with an anxious thought that my survival depends on getting this one, right. That’s kind of true. And then I figure out what the rustling in the bushes is. And if it turns out to be a harmless bird, then the anxiety dissipate.
But if the thing you’re worried about is like, yeah, whether the. whether the grants committee will approve your application when they meet next month. Firstly, you’re wrong to think that your life depends on that in the same way, uh, although to some extent it might. And then [00:28:00] secondly, That’s a month of curdling in and a kind of anxiety that was designed to, um, pass through you and be dissipated in, in seconds.
[00:28:12] Marc: A, a, I think a close relative to what we’re talking about here is something that I encounter a lot with business people is the, the underlying almost unconscious assumption that I have to be hard on myself in order to get things done. And, uh, and, um, Again, I’ll often suggest, you know, well, maybe it’s interesting, try on, see what happens for, if for the next week or two weeks, try being kind to yourself, just try it and see if your productivity goes down.
[00:28:53] Oliver: Right. Yeah, no, it’s great to be able to put like, and obviously the coaching rhythm can help with this, I’m sure, but like, it’s great to be able to put [00:29:00] boundaries on these kinds of things. I do this myself. You sort of say, well, like conceivably it will, if you sort of reduce the vigilance that you apply to yourself.
You will do nothing. I mean, okay, conceivably, let’s entertain that possibility that you’ll just end up on the couch watching Netflix and eating potato chips all day. But so, let’s just see over the next two weeks if that really happens and then you don’t need to worry that you might forget completely and wake up three decades later and still be, uh, eating potato chips on the couch because we’re going to revisit it.
And of course, yes. It is never the case that making more room for what you want to do or what you feel like doing or the possibility that things might be easier than you thought. It’s never the case that these lead to bad outcomes, really.
[00:29:47] Marc: So Oliver, just, I want to read you just a few of the notes that I took that I haven’t gotten to yet and, uh, but I’ll just read them and then you can maybe whatever comes up for you.
Uh, [00:30:00] the future will cross that bridge. The art of taking imperfect action, finishing things. Uh, life tasks, befriending the rats, uh, daily ish. And um, and, and lastly, and maybe this would be a, maybe a good place to maybe if we, if we want to wrap up this or doc, uh, what if it were easy, what if it were easy?
And that’s always, I think, I think any of these are like, you know, um, these are all like little mini reminders or mini pull out. Each one of these, I feel like is like. Pulling the rug out from our usual way of looking at, at things.
[00:30:43] Oliver: Yeah. Yeah. See, I think I, I think if I, I think I could do the Dharma talks if I was a Zen, but what I couldn’t do is hours of Zazen.
That’s my problem. But anyway, um, a separate conversation.
[00:30:57] Marc: We can work on that. I think, again, [00:31:00] erroneous assumptions. You know, I’ll just, uh, I’ll say one thing and then I’ll, I’ll hand it over back to you. The trick is to sit with other people. It is. It is amazing. People so often say, Oh, I can’t, I don’t have a practice.
Like, are you doing it alone? Yes. Well, that’s, it is not, it was never meant to be an individual sport. It’s a group sport. I can sit still facing a wall for a week with if I’m, if I’m in a room of other people who are doing it, but if I’m by myself, no, no way. Like I’m going to get up in 10 minutes and go, go just, it’s
[00:31:38] Oliver: a way out.
Good. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m relieved to hear that. Yeah. And to the limited extent that I have done, uh, sort of organized meditation, that has been my, that has been my, uh, my discovery as well. Um, just thinking which one of that great menu of things is, um, is worth talking a little bit about for some reason, the one about the very first one, I think about [00:32:00] crossing bridges when you come to them is, um, is, uh, uh, maybe an interesting one.
I mean, I think that, um, what I guess in that little chapter, I’m just trying to point out the, um, surprising profundity of this very time worn cliche, right? That you can about crossing bridges when you come to them. I think a, a vivid way of describing the experience of sort of worry or anxiety, at least from my perspective, my experience is that you’re sort of, it’s basically the mind trying to work out.
Every possible thing that could go wrong in the near future and just checking that you’d have all the resources you’d need to, uh, deal with it if, if that happened, or you’d know what, how to do it. And of course you can never satisfy this because there’s always another thing that could go wrong that you can imagine.
And in [00:33:00] any case, you don’t really get the, the solace of having successfully crossed the bridge until you’ve actually crossed it. Right. Like just doing it in your mind isn’t. Isn’t enough. And I, there’s a quote in there from Marcus Aurelius, who wrote the original meditations in some way, uh, that I’m sort of, uh, arrogantly taking on the mantle of here where he, um, he says, you know, don’t worry about the future because you’ll meet it if you have to with the same, in the translation I talk about, he says something like the same weapons of reason that, that arm you against the present.
The basic gist that I take from this being. Um, you know, the best evidence that you’re going to be able to handle things that happen to you in the future is that you’re doing a pretty good job of handling the things that are happening to you in the present. And we have this weird inconsistency or asymmetry or something where we, we play so much trust in our present selves to kind of figure out [00:34:00] everything that could go wrong that we spend all our time worrying and fretting and compulsively sort of anxiously planning.
But we don’t have any faith in ourselves a week from now when the thing happens to just respond. In the moment, spontaneously, drawing on our, the skills and the resources that have got us to, to this point in life. And there’s something really deep there for me about how like, you need to kind of, there’s an act of faith involved in just sort of launching yourself into the stream of life.
Instead of pretending that where you are now is a kind of control tower. from where you can sort it all out and then it will be safe going forwards. Anyway, that’s what that makes me think of.
[00:34:47] Marc: Yeah, no, it’s interesting. I think, um, we, I think we all, you know, we, I, I think most of us, maybe we all do that kind of, right, that, [00:35:00] that preparing, there’s the preparing for the future, there’s preparing for what’s next.
Yeah. And then it’s, what’s that, what’s the attitude that we have about it? And it’s easy to write to, to be stressed, to look for all the things that can go wrong. And, and sometimes that can be a pro that even that can be appropriate. Right. But, but it’s then like, okay, but what’s your state of mind?
[00:35:24] Oliver: Right.
Yeah. You can use the present moment to do scenario planning. Absolutely. Yes. Right. It’s not, it’s not that that’s terrible and wrong. It’s just that if the, if the spirit in which you’re doing it is. Eventually, I’ll have planned the scenarios to the point where I can guarantee that life will be on autopilot from here on out.
That’s the, that’s the mistake, I think. Um, yes, this is a thing that, more broadly, I think is misunderstood or is a, maybe a unfortunate nuance of a lot of, kind of, be here now, present in the moment, kind [00:36:00] of, Rhetoric in spiritual worlds in general, which is, of course, one of the things you might choose to do with a very present moment is planning, uh, for the future.
It’s just that you’ll be doing it in the spirit of doing something with your moment instead of trying to sort of white knuckle control, uh, what’s going to be happening in the future. Well, Oliver,
[00:36:23] Marc: I think I want to, um, as a way of, as a way of wrapping here, I want to offer you one of my current favorite, uh, quotes from the Zen world.
Please do. Which, and it’s interesting, it’s, it’s from, uh, Shunryu Suzuki, um, who said, um, our, our practice is less like putting things, collecting things and putting them in your basket and more like discovering things or finding things in your sleeve. I thought of that as, um, you know, kind of [00:37:00] parallel with what you are teaching about time.
But a little bit more in the realm of space and, and how we treat, how we treat things or how we treat, uh, events. Right. That, right. You know, I love, I love the feeling, the feeling of that. Um, Um,
[00:37:20] Oliver: me too. It’s a bit mysterious to me. I’ll have to think about it more to sort of unpack it, but I, there’s something very, um, delightful about it even before I’ve,
[00:37:29] Marc: I’ve got there.
Well, maybe the Western, maybe instead of in your, maybe more like the fact the other day. Uh, Uh, I was, um, it’s so funny time, you know, I can’t, I can’t believe that, that I’m, I’m actually older than you, you know, which is so weird. I’m so used to being younger than everyone because I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was a little, I was the little brother of my whole life the other day.
And this [00:38:00] will give you a clue as to why I’ve said that I was, uh, uh, walking. I was at my two year old grandson was in a stroller. And, um, and I reached into my pocket and I was very surprised to find that it was filled with pieces of dried mango. Uh, which, which my, my, my wife had apparently, uh, inserted them in there without telling me.
And cause it’s, it’s one of his favorite things in the world. And, and I was just so, I was just so surprised to put my hand and that was like, just like that. You were about to
[00:38:40] Oliver: say that finding something in your pocket is the. It’s the Western version of finding something in your sleeve. Yeah. That’s
[00:38:46] Marc: right.
Cause we don’t wear, you know, you can, Matt, he’s wearing these in, in, uh, these Japanese Zen guys, they wear big sleeves and the sleeves all have pockets in them where you can put things. That’s where they keep stuff and where stuff collects.
[00:38:59] Oliver: Yeah. [00:39:00] Yeah. For
[00:39:00] Marc: us, it’s maybe more, uh, accessible to say, you know, that, you know, that a, uh, a healthy, vibrant, joyous life, satisfying life.
It’s less about collecting things in your basket and more about discovering, discovering new experiences or things in your pocket, in your, in your being surprised.
[00:39:26] Oliver: Right. Well, there’s, there’s a lovely double nuance there, right? It’s about discovery rather than, rather than going out to collect, but it’s also in some sense about things you already, you already had.
[00:39:39] Marc: That’s right. That’s right. Yes. Which that, that, that’s a, that’s a. A theme that, uh, of your, your work. And it’s a, it’s a key theme of, you know, mindfulness practice or Zen practice, right? That, uh, you already have, what if you already have everything that you need? Everything you need is right there. [00:40:00] Oliver, thank you.
It’s, uh, it’s really been a delight to get to spend a good, a good use of a good use of time. If there’s such a thing. I’ve really enjoyed it.
Thanks, Mark. Thank you.]
[END OF AUDIO]
The post Four Thousand Weeks, One Precious Moment appeared first on Marc Lesser.
May 23, 2025
The Practice of Effort and Effortlessness
In this episode, we dive into the practice of effort and effortlessness, beginning with a short meditation session. Marc discusses the balance between effort and relaxation, using examples from Zen Buddhism, such as ‘Right Effort’ and the advice of Suzuki Roshi. He shares stories, including a martial arts anecdote, to illustrate how overexertion can impede progress. Listeners are encouraged to let go of unnecessary effort and appreciate being present. The episode closes with an invitation: to experiment with reducing extra effort to achieve greater clarity and connection.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[music]
[00:00:00] Marc: Welcome to Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser, a biweekly podcast featuring conversations with leaders and teachers exploring the intersection of keeping our hearts open and effective action in these most uncertain and challenging times. Please support our work by making a donation at Marc lesser slash donate.
Welcome to today’s practice session in which the topic is the practice of effort and effortlessness. And we’ll start with a short sitting, uh, do a little practice together. I’ll say a few words about the topic and then maybe we’ll, we’ll end with a few minutes of sitting together.[00:01:00]
And I am gonna begin with, uh, ringing my, my trustee bell, which I, I think of this bell as kinda a priming, priming us to stop and pause.
So inviting us to create this simple and yet, uh, sacred space,
uh, allowing our attention to. Rest [00:02:00] on our body, on the breath,
on being here,
and especially for today. And a letting go of any extra effort, unnecessary effort.
As much as possible, uh, dropping the, uh, busyness or activities of the day, the to-do lists,
a sense of, uh, deep rest, nothing to uh, accomplish,
nothing to change.
Uh, allowing, you know, allowing the [00:03:00] breath to be full and fluid. And so no, there’s no effort, no effort required in breathing, no effort required really in, uh, being here alive.
Interesting how, you know, effortlessness is a lot like kind of, uh, generosity, being generous with our awareness, our listening,
opening, opening to uh, what’s possible.
And, you know, and keeping it simple, [00:04:00] uh, breathing in and breathing out. And, and one way to, uh, to practice is with each, with each exhale a, uh, kind of letting, letting go. A little bit more relaxed, a little bit more alert. Yeah. So this, um, this quality of effortlessness contains I think, both relaxed and alert, right?
Because we’re not not distracted. We can be here ready for anything.[00:05:00]
You know, just noticing, you know, kinda checking in, checking in with the body, with the breath, you know, letting, letting thinking mind do its thing. And gently, uh, coming back
and noticing any feelings. Like what, where, where are you right now? Just tuning in.
I think of this, this practice is, we are, we are like, uh, we’re like scientists. In which our, our laboratory is
the awareness that we bring to our body. Breath, thoughts and feelings,[00:06:00]
and knowing, knowing ourselves, and going beyond, knowing and letting go.
And, uh, let’s just sit quietly and, um, in, I’ll shortly ring the bell. You can, uh, feel free to, uh, continue sitting or, or join me in this, uh, next, next part of this, uh, time together.
So I wanna talk a little bit about the practice of effort [00:07:00] and effortlessness or. Sometimes, you know, in, um, in Buddhism it’s called Right, right. Effort. Uh, and I think of the, the Star Wars film in which Yoda famously tells Luke Skywalker Do not do or do not. There’s no try. Right. And this, and this is, you know, when Luke doubts.
His ability to access the force. And, you know, and, and I love, uh, I love the film, uh, star Wars and in a way, this concept of the force is like in zen practice or Buddhist practice, it’s like your intuition or your true nature. And I like the story. Uh, a, a great story about effort and effortlessness is a.
Martial arts student who asks his teacher, you know, how long will it take me [00:08:00] to become a black belt? And the teacher responds, oh, about about 10 years. And the student looks puzzled and impatient and says, you know what, if I work harder and I push myself to excel, what if I’m the best student, then how long will it take me in that case?
And the teacher pauses to consider this, uh, additional information. Smiles and looks at the student and says, in that case, it will take 20 years. And, um, you know, uh, Aldos Huxley referred to this as, you know, the Law of Reversed effort, expressing that when we, you know, overtly exert or over exert ourselves or try too hard to achieve something, we may, uh, actually, uh, impede our progress.
And Zen Teacher Suzuki addresses this issue by saying the most important [00:09:00] point in our practice is to have right or perfect effort. And he goes on to say, if your effort is headed in the wrong direction, especially if you’re not aware of this, it is diluted effort. Our practice, our effort and our practice should be directed from achievement to non achievement.
You know, usually when we do something, we want to achieve something, but from achievement to non achievement means to get rid of unnecessary effort. When we make some special effort, you know, to achieve something, there’s some, there’s some excessive quality, something, uh, something that we can, uh, let go of.
And people ask, you know, what does it mean to practice meditation with no gaining idea or what kind of effort is necessary? And here it’s the [00:10:00] effort to let go, the effort to let go of doing, uh, anything extra much like we just did in this short, uh, meditation practice. And I love in, um, in talking about, you know, effort and effortlessness.
Uh, Sri Suzuki and Zenin beginner’s mind says, you are living in this world as one individual, but before you take the form of a human being, you are already here. Always here. We are always here. So he’s talking about, you know, from a very kind of deep and non-dual way of. The, the underlying, the deep practice of effortlessness is to return to our essential oneness, you know, the oneness with everything.
And he goes on to say, [00:11:00] you know, in describing, you know, that how we are always here and a, a different way of looking at, uh, birth and life and death. He says, this is the magic. We ourselves cannot put any magic spells on this world. The world is its own magic.
So let’s maybe just do, uh, a few minutes of, uh, sitting quietly, uh, together, practicing this again, coming back to letting go of doing anything extra.
So I like you don’t, you know, we don’t need to call this meditation. You don’t need to even, uh, even stop just right now letting go of doing [00:12:00] anything extra. I invite you to be here just, uh, simply. Appreciating being alive. And no matter what, you know, whether you are feeling happy or sad or grieving or excited, you just noticing, just bringing awareness to whatever’s happening right now
effortlessly, uh, wholeheartedly. Something about. Wholehearted practice and nothing to change. Nothing to get
is to hear breathing alive[00:13:00]
and with a sense of a sense of wonder.
Uh, I also sometimes, uh, call this, uh, warm-hearted curiosity. Warm-hearted curiosity is a great path of discovery and, uh, effortlessness and, and also I think the path of being more. Uh, grounded, clear, and effective in, in the world. So, you know, this is the, uh, suggested homework for today or the week. Uh, experiment.
Experiment with noticing any extra effort and see if you can, [00:14:00] uh, let it go. End. And notice if that supports you to be a bit more clear and connected. Connected with yourself and, uh, connected with anyone who you are, uh, interacting with from your family members to people at work, to the checkout. A person at the checkout counter, at the grocery store to, um, this deep sense of, uh, connectedness and respect for everything.
Yeah. The practice of, uh, effort and effortlessness. And I think I’ll as a way of, uh, closing, just, uh, ring my bell.[00:15:00]
I hope you’ve appreciated today’s episode. To learn more about my work, you can visit Marc lesser.net, and if you’re interested in enrolling in a self-directed course, I. Called Seven Practices of a Mindful Leader, please visit Marc lesser courses.thinkific.com. This podcast is offered freely and relies on the financial support from listeners like you.
Uh, you can donate@marclesser.net slash donate. Thank you very much.
[END OF AUDIO]
The post The Practice of Effort and Effortlessness appeared first on Marc Lesser.
May 15, 2025
Catching Sparks
“Anything or anyone that does not bring you alive is too small for you.”
–David Whyte
Insights Into Practices — Catching Sparks
A Favorite Quote, Thich Nhat Hanh on Right View
What I’m Reading
Podcast
I love the opening scene to the recent film, A Complete Unknown, a biopic about the early days of Bob Dylan’s emergence as a music icon. He seeks out and finds Woody Guthrie, one of his heroes, hospitalized in New Jersey, unable to speak. When Dylan enters the hospital room he is greeted by Pete Seeger, playing music for Guthrie. Seeger asks Dylan, “What are you doing here?” Dylan responds, approaching Guthrie, “I was struck to the ground” hearing Guthrie’s music and “I’m here to catch a spark.”
This week I led a short mindful leader training with a group of Hospice staff and volunteers. I could feel the “sparks” in the room; something about sitting in a circle of people who are deeply engaged with death and dying. I began the training by acknowledging how unbelievably lucky I feel, that I’ve had the opportunity to “catch sparks” from many colleagues, friends, mentors, and teachers and students in the Zen world, the business world, and many other worlds. I stated that my intention for our time together was that perhaps they would catch some sparks from me, and that I was there to learn from them and to catch some of their sparks. I don’t exactly know what happened in our short time together but I felt “struck to the ground” by the energy and meeting that occurred, and caught a bundle of sparks from teaching and learning from with this group of caretakers.
Catching a spark is a valuable and healthy way to approach our work, relationships, and all parts of our lives. It feels like a vital approach or practice — wherever you go, being open to what sparks you might catch – not only from the people, but from the clouds, mountains, rivers, and ladybugs too. And, at the same time, bringing some awareness to what sparks you might be offering.
[image error](Tassajara, Zen Mountain Center; A place I go to catch sparks.)
One of the reasons I’ve relaunched my podcast, (formerly Zen Bones) now Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser is to catch some sparks from my guests. I’ve just opened the first episode with poet David Whyte. During the first week of June you can listen to my conversation with Oliver Burkeman, bestselling author of 4,000 Hours; Time Management For Mortals.
Practice: Catch Some Sparks
This practice reminds me of a line of David Whyte’s poetry: “Anything or anyone that does not bring you alive is too small for you.” It’s the sparks that we catch and give that brings us alive.
Bring consciousness, awareness to the people that you choose to spend time with. Seek out people where you might catch a spark.
And, make yourself into someone who has sparks to offer.
A book about the practice of “catching sparks” is Inner Gold: Understanding Psychological Projection, by Robert Johnson.
A Favorite Quote: Right View, by Thich Nhat Hanh
“When one person comes up to us, the very sight of him makes us uncomfortable. But when someone else walks by, we like her right away. Something in each of those touches a seed in us. If we love our mother deeply, but feel tense every time we think of our father, it is natural that when we see a young person who looks like our mother we will appreciate her, and when we see a person who evokes the memory of our father, we will feel uncomfortable. In this way we can “see” the seeds that are in us…When we become aware of the seeds in our storehouse, we will not be surprised by our own behavior or the behavior of others.
At the base of our view are our perceptions… Buddha advised “Where there is perception — there is deception.”… We have to ask ourselves again and again. Am I sure?
The source of our perception, our way of seeing, lies in our storehouse consciousness.
No view can ever be the truth. The quality of our views can always be improved. From the viewpoint of ultimate reality, Right View is the absence of all views.
”What I’m Reading
Radical Candor, by Kim Scott – An excellent book that emphasizes honest, compassionate communication, encouraging feedback, building trust, and empowering teams. The book offers practical tools to foster strong relationships and better results at work.
The Heart Of Buddha’s Teaching, by Thich Nhat Hanh – That basics of mindfulness practice with lots of depth and heart.
Have a listen to my recent conversation with David Whyte and many others.
Warmest regards,
Marc
The post Catching Sparks appeared first on Marc Lesser.
May 8, 2025
Poetry, Leadership, & the Power of Invitation
““One line of poetry can transform a life.”
– David Whyte
We’re thrilled to kick off Season 2 of Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser (formerly Zen Bones) with none other than poet, philosopher, and author David Whyte.
In this deeply moving conversation, David reflects on his journey from working with global corporations like Boeing to returning to the revelatory edge of poetry, Zen, and contemplative leadership.
What you’ll hear in this episode:
· Why poetry belongs in the boardroom, and the break room.
· How deep conversation begins with real invitation.
· The surprising truth about stopping as a path forward
· What Zen and heartbreak teach us about leadership.
· A powerful reminder: “Not knowing is most intimate.”
[image error]This episode is a poetic exploration of meaning, vulnerability, and the lifelong practice of staying open—especially when our hearts are broken.
Listen now and join us in welcoming a new season of insight, heart, and human spirit.
Mindful Leadership With Marc Lesser, David White episode
A core theme throughout David Whyte’s talks is the human ability to hold and live two contrasting worldviews. This theme presents itself in my conversation now available in this podcast “The World Was Made To Be Free In.” Due to popular demand, (and because I find it extremely nourishing), I’ve launched Season 2 of Zen Bones podcast under a new name: Mindful Leadership with Marc Lesser. Here these two “worldviews” of Zen and Leadership are woven together to create a tapestry of depth, sacredness, and effectiveness.
Here are a few lines from this new podcast conversation:
“The whole dynamic is about making real invitations to yourself, to another, to a group of people. You can call it an organization or a business. The way poetry touches people when I’m out there is that you will often get people who would come into a corporate room because they have some goal, something they want.
But actually what happens in that room is it’s way beyond that goal. It is touching something way underneath that goal too. If I’m doing my work properly, it’s touching people at a deep foundation. Years ago at Oxford Business School I had a man from a major telecommunications company run up to me after my session and said, I don’t know whether to buy a Harley Davidson and drive off into the sunset or redouble my efforts in my work.
And I said, well, just hold those two things together because you’ve got exactly what I was talking about, you know? All of us have that conversation between these polarities. There’s that gorgeous line by Rilke where he says, stretch your well disciplined strengths between two opposing poles.
Because inside human beings is where God lives. We use this word God, but it really means anything far over the horizon, as you could ever imagine: imagine or engage with. So, what calls us also lives within us at the same time.”
If you haven’t listened to Season 1 of the Zen Bones Podcast, do check it out. I appreciated and enjoyed my many conversations including Jon Kabat Zinn, Jane Hirshfield, Joan Halifax, Parker Palmer, and many others. There are also several “practice episodes” containing guiding meditations and short talks on work, Zen, and life. Zen Bones Podcast is here.
Mindful Leadership With Marc Lesser, David White episode
With appreciation
Marc
The post Poetry, Leadership, & the Power of Invitation appeared first on Marc Lesser.
April 24, 2025
Are You Living with A Closed Fist Or An Open Hand?
Insights Into Practices: Closed Fist or Open Hand?
A Favorite Quote
What I’m Cooking – Asparagus Soup
Half-Day Retreat, July 13th
“Stopping, calming, and resting are preconditions for healing…The world needs healing. Individuals, communities and nations need healing.”
– Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh
A worthy experiment is to make a fist with one hand, closing your fingers really tight and notice how you feel. Then, slowly open your hand with fingers extended and be aware of how this influences you.
It can be easy, especially these days, to live our lives with a closed fist, and not even be aware of it. Every day, sometimes every hour, there is more alarming news coming out of Washington.
A closed fist or an open hand is a useful and important way of noticing your approach to whatever you are doing and more broadly, how you are living, right now. Metaphors are powerful and the language we use to think about ourselves, describe our actions, and view our lives can have real impact.
The metaphor of comparing your life to “juggling lots of balls” during a particularly full day, can be self-fulfilling. Ball juggling, or plate juggling can be frenetic, and often the balls or plates come crashing down.
Instead, I prefer the metaphor of “planting lots of seeds.” Ahhh, seed-planting is much slower, more conscious, and gentler than ball juggling. You can decide what seeds to water or not. I much prefer my life be more like gardening and less like juggling. It’s “just” a shift in language, and yet it can shift our approach, from a closed fist to an open hand.
This week I’ve been studying the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh. He brings a good deal of accessibility, warmth, and practicality to the practice of noticing when we are sad, lonely or angry and describes practices for bringing understanding to when we are tight or stressed. Here is his five-step approach to working with a closed fist:
[image error]1) Recognition – I’m living with a closed fist (or any kind of stress, anxiety, or anger) and I bring awareness to it.
2) Acceptance – Being tight or closed is what is present.
3) Embracing – Not pushing away these strong feelings but appreciating what is.
4) Looking Deeply – Bring curiosity to what is the cause of these feelings and emotions.
5) Insight – Touching understanding and bringing more choice into our daily lives.
He goes on to suggest that these practices can shift our energy from striving to resting. “Stopping, calming, and resting are preconditions for healing…The world needs healing. Individuals. Communities and nations need healing.”
The Practice
Notice: Are you living, working, communicating, with a closed fist or an open hand? What supports you to be more open?
Notice how the quest for perfection is a noble idea, except when it leads you to tighten and close. Explore enjoying imperfection; being less caught, less tightening around ideas of perfection.
[image error]A Favorite Quote
“If you try to adjust yourself in a certain way, you will lose yourself. So without any intentional, fancy way of adjusting yourself, to express yourself freely as you are is the most important thing to make yourself happy, and to make others happy. You will acquire this kind of ability by practicing meditation.”
– Shunryu Suzuki, from Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind
What I’m Cooking This Week – Asparagus Soup
It’s easy these days to become separated or distant from the food we eat, that nourishes and sustains us. Very few of us grow our own food, and I’m often surprised how many people rarely cook. I like to make it a point to make bread, soup, or salad as often as I can.
Explore the practice of cooking as a creative and nourishing process. Let your hands and mind open; just chopping, cooking, and loving…
Here is a simple recipe for Asparagus Soup
Saute 1 onion and a leek in olive oil. (salt and pepper to taste.)
Add about 1.5 pounds of chopped asparagus.
Add one small potato, in small pieces.
Put in 6 cups of water, cover and simmer for 10 – 15 minutes.
Cool briefly and puree.
(You can hold back some of the asparagus tips and add after you puree.)
Season with salt and pepper, and perhaps some lemon juice.
Half-day Retreat, In-Person and Online, July 13th (Mill Valley)
In our world of busyness, of more/faster/better, this half-day retreat offers time to stop, reflect, and renew. We will explore the practices of effort and effortless as a path to well-being and “stepping into your life.” Together we’ll follow a gentle schedule of sitting and walking meditation, a talk, and some discussion. Anyone looking to begin or deepen a meditation and mindfulness practice is invited to attend. What is meditation? I like a definition proposed by Dogen, the 13th century founder of Zen in Japan: “The practice I speak of is not meditation. It is simply the dharma gate of repose and bliss…It is the manifestation of ultimate reality…Once its heart is grasped, you are like a dragon when he gains the water, like a tiger when she enters the mountains.”
[image error]Warmest regards,
Marc
The post Are You Living with A Closed Fist Or An Open Hand? appeared first on Marc Lesser.
April 10, 2025
Less Catastrophizing: More Not Knowing
Insights Into Practices: Staying With Uncertainty
A Poem, by William Stafford
What I’m Watching
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will get you everywhere.”
– Albert Einstein
I almost quit watching the game. In a recent Final Four college basketball match, Duke was leading Houston by 7 points with just over a minute to play. Duke was ahead the entire game and seemed like the better team. Houston won 70 – 67.
Our brains can’t help make predictions. In daily life, predictions make it possible to survive. When we get out of bed in the morning we predict where the floor will be, and where the bathroom door is located. We predict (consciously and unconsciously) who we are, what will happen next, and what our life will look like for the day, weeks, and future. We are amazing predictors, and at the same time we are terrible at predicting the future, especially as we move away from our own lives to other’s lives and to the larger events of the world.
Human thinking, and especially predictions are flawed when it comes to understanding randomness, risk, and uncertainty. We tend to:
Over-rely on what we know
Underestimate what we don’t know
Assume the future will look like the past
Catastrophize during times of uncertainty
Who would have ever predicted Donald Trump as president. Trump was elected president once — impossible. Twice, incredibly impossible. And who would have predicted Barack Obama. Barack Obama was elected once, and twice — also impossible! Who would have predicted either of these events?
Right now, (and almost always) it is easy, and perhaps prudent to predict catastrophe. It’s better to be prepared than unprepared for catastrophic events. That’s the beauty and importance of the negativity bias – it’s better to predict the worst and have these predictions not come true. The problem with this is the toll it takes on our nervous systems, our sense of ease, and in our ability to see more clearly. And, it gets in the way of seeing and appreciating the countless positive things in our lives.
Right now, during these particularly chaotic times, I’m doing my best to not avoid seeing and feeling as fully as possible, and at the same time staying with uncertainty.
We really don’t know what will happen next. This is always true, but this truth comes into play as more important during less predictable times, like now. Donald Trump is many things, but one of his real talents is his ability to create chaos.
So what?
Practice
Notice how you predict the future, usually with a good dose of negativity bias and fear. We humans are hardwired to scan for threats. It’s essential for keeping us safe and alive.
At the same time, explore staying with uncertainty. Try on staying with not knowing what will happen next. Start with yourself, with how you think about your own success and failure, or any limited story that you tell about yourself.
Then, extend not knowing to the people around you. Be more curious. What is your partner’s experience, or your children, parents, friends? Explore making less assumptions and more real inquiry.
Try extending not knowing to the world around you.
And, explore noticing and appreciating the “little” things – the taste of an apple, the movement of the clouds, your feet touching the floor.
The Practice is to be really good at predicting the future, and at the same time to stay with uncertainty; and appreciating being alive.
[image error]A Poem
Our Story, by William Stafford
Remind me again—together we
trace our strange journey, find
each other, come on laughing.
Some time we’ll cross where life
ends. We’ll both look back
as far as forever, that first day.
I’ll touch you—a new world then.
Stars will move a different way.
We’ll both end. We’ll both begin.
Remind me again.
What I’m Watching
Dying For Sex – I’ve only watched the first few episodes and am really enjoying this series. It’s based on a true story. With heart and humor, it portrays the quest to be fully human in the midst of impermanence.
Warmest regards,
Marc
The post Less Catastrophizing: More Not Knowing appeared first on Marc Lesser.
March 27, 2025
The Overview Effect
“Zen Is Meant To Destroy Your Common Sense”
– Shunryu Suzuki, Zen Teacher
Perhaps it is our “common sense” that has gotten us into this mess – in our leadership, politics, and our planet.
NASA astronaut Ron Garan spent 178 days aboard the International Space Station. Upon his return he said that from space Earth appears as an “iridescent biosphere teeming with life.” He was struck by the “unbelievable thinness of our planet’s atmosphere, which keeps every living thing on our planet alive.” Several astronauts have shared profound insights about viewing Earth from space, emphasizing its fragility and the interconnectedness of humanity
Garan went on to describe experiencing what is called the “Overview Effect,” a cognitive shift in awareness that many astronauts report.
“We’re living a lie,” he stated. “We have our priorities completely upside down by emphasizing economic systems over planetary wellbeing.”
Lies seem particularly popular right now. Lies are now being touted as truth, or as common sense:
– There is no climate change.
– We don’t have any issues (historically or currently) with racism and bias.
– Integrity, values, and morality don’t matter in leadership.
– Wise government is not possible.
– Capitalism doesn’t require regulations.
You don’t need to go to outer space to experience the beauty and fragility of our planet, of humanity, and of all of life. And you don’t need to go anywhere to see how so-called “common sense” is made up of greed, hatred, and delusion, lacking in honesty, transparency, and wisdom.
The overview effect in some way is simply washing away ego, turning away from greed and hatred, and seeing ourselves and our world with the eyes of reality, of care, love, truth, and wisdom. It provides perspective and puts truth and lies into greater clarity.
(A Leaf, Photo Taken In Mexico)
The Overview Effect is a type of awe experience, as described by scientist Dachner Keltner. In our podcast conversation Awe In Everyday Life, he describes the practice of seeing things fresh, as though for the first time. He says, “One of my favorite studies is we find that brief experiences of awe lead people to reduced polarization of their political opponents and less polarized debates over abortion or gun rights. What that means is awe is an antidote to polarizing conflict, which is one of our real social problems today.”
We can use more truth and perspective; less lies, and more courage to see and speak from a perspective of awe, clarity, and compassion.
Practices
Meditation – With each exhale let go of expecting anything, including another inhale. This is a practice from Shunryu Suzuki, from Zen Mind Beginner’s Mind. If there is another inhale, you might be surprised. “Oh, here I am, alive…”
Awe Walk – Experiment with seeing everything as though for the first time – trees, flowers, cars, clouds, other people, yourself.
A Poem, by Rainer Maria Rilke
I want to unfold
I don’t want to stay folded anywhere,
Because where I am folded, there I am a lie.
And I want my grasp of things
true before you. I want to describe myself
like a painting that I looked at
closely for a long time,
like a saying that I finally understood,
like the pitcher I use every day,
like the face of my mother,
like a ship
that took me safely
through the wildest storm of all.
A Favorite Quote (How To Work Skillfully With Our Anger)
“Our zazen (meditation) is a unique thing. We face the wall with an object. Still, many things rise in our consciousness. For example, I might think about an incident that made me angry, maybe yesterday. That event may be so powerful that no matter how many times I have tried to let go it still comes up. Actually, when I am sitting and facing the wall the incident is already over. It’s not reality anymore. But it continues in my consciousness as if it were real. During zazen I can see clearly that there’s no object, no person in front of me now. It’s an illusion, just energy that still remains from those seeds in my storehouse consciousness. So I let it go.”
– from The Mountains and Waters Sutra, Shohaku Okumura
Half-Day Meditation Retreat, Sunday, March 30th. (This Sunday.)
In person in Mill Valley and online. Open to anyone. Excellent way to get a taste of extended meditation practice with a supportive community.
Warmest regards,
Marc
The post The Overview Effect appeared first on Marc Lesser.
March 13, 2025
Selling Water By The River
The effectiveness of an intervention is in direct proportion to the quality of the state of mind of the intervenor.”
– Otto Scharmer
Selling Water By The RiverA Favorite QuoteWhat I’m Watching; Two FilmsHalf Day Meditation Retreat (Sunday, March 30th)Tassajara Workshop, A Zen Inspired Retreat (August 26 – 31)“Selling water by the river” is an expression that pokes fun at ourselves for failing to recognize what is right in front of us, and can be a gentle reminder to ask yourself – what if nothing is missing? What if we begin from a place that we have what we need?
It’s easy to focus on the many problems of our lives and the world, to see only what is lacking, the numerous challenges and the gaps between the world we want and know is possible and the world we have. It’s easy to get caught up in the daily routines; aiming to get to the next task or event and missing or not appreciating what is right in front of us.
As Zen teacher Shunryu Suzuki suggests — practice (mindfulness practice and mindful leadership) is more like finding things, or discovering things in our sleeves and less like collecting things in our basket.
A variety of leaders that I’ve worked with over many years assume they need to be self-critical, judgmental, and be hard on themselves in order to get things done and to succeed. I often suggest, as an experiment, the practice of generosity, and kindness; “Instead of being critical explore being more generous and kind with yourself and see if this negativity impacts your productivity and effectiveness.” This is a lot like discovering that you are already in the stream you’ve been searching for.
The voice of self-criticism is part survival mechanism and part negativity bias. From an evolutionary perspective, scanning for threats, for what is missing, for what can go wrong is an essential quality.
It can be surprising to discover and experience that we are more effective when we begin from a place of acceptance and appreciation. It is a shift in attitude to envision what we want to accomplish without self-criticism and from a place of generosity.
We have more inner resources and can cultivate more possibilities when we are open, curious, and generous.
Practice:
Experiment with the phrase: Selling water by the river, as a reminder that despite all the of challenges and problems, it’s possible to appreciate being here, now, alive.
Explore the approach of finding and discovering, instead of only adding more things to your list of what needs to get done.
What might the practice of generosity look like in your work and life?
(Walking in Central Park, NYC)
A Favorite Quote:
The effectiveness of an intervention is in direct proportion to the quality of the state of mind of the intervenor.”
– Otto Scharmer
What I’m Watching
A Complete Unknown – I loved this film about the genius of Bob Dylan. Set against the backdrop of 1960s America, it follows Dylan’s rise from a wandering folk singer to a cultural icon.
Still Here – Powerful film about Brazil’s military dictatorship. Tells the story of those who resisted oppression and fought for justice.
Half-Day Meditation Retreat, Sunday, March 30th
In person in Mill Valley and online
Tassajara, Step Into Your Life Workshop, August 26 – 31
Come join me at Tassajara, Zen Mountain Center for a 5-day retreat. Together we’ll follow a gentle schedule of sitting and walking meditation, interspersed with talks and discussions from the wisdom of Zen teaching as we explore how these stories and dialogues may be utilized in our relationships, our work, and our lives.
Warmest regards,
Marc
The post Selling Water By The River appeared first on Marc Lesser.
February 27, 2025
Hate, Love, and The Practice Of Wonderment
“I did not ask for success. I asked for wonder.”
– Abraham Joshua Heschel (1907 – 1972)
Hate, Love, and The Practice Of WondermentA Favorite Quote, The World Is Its Own MagicWhat I’m ReadingHalf Day Meditation Retreat (Sunday, March 30th)Tassajara Workshop, A Zen Inspired Retreat (August 26 – 31)I once took a writing and improv class in order to help get unstuck with my writing. It was during a time when I felt blocked, in the midst of having signed a contract to produce a book. The need to create “book worthy writing” can be stultifying. I appreciated this class where I could write freely, without concern about judging the quality of my writing.
However, I was somewhere between nervous and terrified at the improv portion of the class. Sensing my caution, and my attempt to hide in the back of the classroom, one afternoon the teacher called me to come to the small stage at the front of the room. She looked at me and wondered how to begin an improv experience.
She suggested that I say the words “I hate.” I was surprised and curious about her choice, and went with it. Then, she asked me to repeat this phrase, again and again, with feeling. I could feel myself both opening and tightening, with some anger building. Then she added to the words, the direction to stomp my feet, along with the phrase “I hate.” After several rounds of this, she stepped back and said “go!”
From somewhere deep inside me I blurted out “I hated high school graduation where they lined us up according to height.” I went on for a while about various events in my life that I associated as being awful, unfair, or connected to emotional pain. Then, little by little, without thinking or conscious effort, I began expressing things that I was fond of and then the many people and events that I loved came into focus. “I loved going golfing with my father when I was 13,…I loved being the bread baker at Tassajara…”
It was powerful to experience how feeling and expressing pain transformed into feelings and expressions of love.
There is no shortage of things to hate these days; no shortage of uncertainty, and of pain. I find myself often noticing or saying “This being human is a tough gig.” Without avoiding or suppressing pain, difficulty, and the things we hate, it’s important to remember how much goodness, creativity, and love there is — at the same time.
I’ve been studying a Zen text called the Harmony of Difference and Equality. It contains a series of phrases about the practice of integrating the dark and the light of our human experience:
“In the light there is darkness.
but don’t take it as darkness;
In the dark there is light,
but don’t see it as light.
Light and dark oppose one another
like front and back foot in walking.”
Practice
I’ve also been thinking a lot about wonderment as a practice. There are events and how we interpret these events. An important practice is to be curious about how we experience ourselves, others, and the world — with a bit more wonder – approaching what we hate and what we love, with a sense of wonderment.
A book I read many years ago is I Asked For Wonder – A Spiritual Anthology by Abraham Joshua Heschel. A quote that has stayed with me is: “I did not ask for success. I asked for wonder.”
(Cataract Trail, Mount Tamalpais)
A Favorite Quote
“You are living in this world as one individual, but before you take the form of a human being, you are already there, always there. We are always here. Do you understand?
…We ourselves cannot put any magic spells on this world. The world is its own magic.
…So try not to see something in particular; try not to achieve anything special. You already have everything in your own pure quality. If you understand this ultimate fact, there is no fear. There may be some difficulty, of course, but there is no fear.”
– Shunryu Suzuki, Zen Mind Beginner’s Mind
What I’m Reading
Steppenwolf, by Hermann Hesse – An oldie but great book.A journey into the realms of self-discovery, non-duality, and the transformative power of art and spirituality, provoking radical transformation.
Question 7, by Richard Flanagan – Part memoir, part novel and historical fiction. Beautifully written exploration of memory, moral ambiguity, and power dynamics.
Half-Day Meditation Retreat, Sunday, March 30th
In person in Mill Valley and online
Tassajara, Step Into Your Life Workshop, August 26 – 31
Come join me at Tassajara, Zen Mountain Center for a 5-day retreat. Together we’ll follow a gentle schedule of sitting and walking meditation, interspersed with talks and discussions from the wisdom of Zen teaching as we explore how these stories and dialogues may be utilized in our relationships, our work, and our lives.
Warmest regards,
Marc
The post Hate, Love, and The Practice Of Wonderment appeared first on Marc Lesser.
February 13, 2025
What Do You Call The World?
The Art and Practice of Perspective-Taking
What Do You Call The World?A Poem, by RumiWhat I’m WatchingHalf Day Meditation Retreat (Sunday, 3/30)Tassajara Workshop, (August 26 – 31)There is a story about a rabbi who carries two slips of paper in his pocket. One said “The world was created for me.” The other slip of paper said “I am but dust and ashes.” His practice is to know when to reach for which message.
We all live in many, many worlds. Have you noticed? What are some of the worlds you live in?
My worlds this morning include the world of reading and writing. Right now, here I am at the keyboard, aware of the connection between thoughts, feelings, body, and hands. I woke up this morning aware that it was dark and 5:25 a.m, and before that I was in the world of sleeping and dreaming. I dreamt that I was in my 20’s running through city streets and then streets from the neighborhood in New Jersey where I grew up, followed by a dream wondering how I could be running so unencumbered given the state of my artificial hips. (I actually do have titanium hips.)
Then waking up, standing with these feet touching the floor, I entered the world of a hot shower, a cold shower, and then hot shower. And then the world of reading the New York Times. What a world that is. Dramas upon dramas, mostly bad, awful events, domestic and international. Then some slight relief exploring the arts, business, and sports sections.
This question, “What do you call the world?” comes from a classic Zen story from a collection of Zen stories from the Golden Age of Zen in China (600 – 900 CE) called The Book of Serenity.
The story is a dialogue between two renowned Zen teachers:
Teacher A asks: How is Zen in the South these days?
B responds: There is lots of study, practice, and discussion
A: How can you compare to my temple where we plant fields and grow rice?
B: What are you doing about the world?
A What do you call the world?
I feel a good deal of curiosity and affection for story, especially this line, this question: What do you call the world? It highlights the reality that we all live in many worlds and that our freedom lies in our perceptions, perspectives, and choices.
The practice of perspective taking, is noticing that we exist in many worlds and being aware of where we put our attention, our thoughts, and our life energy. It’s a choice, and it’s a practice. It is the aspiration to see, think, and act with as much clarity as we can muster – not avoiding what is painful, but not causing unnecessary pain.
Right now it can be daunting to know how much attention to give to the geopolitical world. It can be deeply disturbing. Avoiding and denying don’t appear as good options, nor is being submerged and thrown around by the negative energy.
I find myself aspiring to lean in to and bring forth the worlds of uncertainty and of kindness. We don’t know what will happen next, really. It is easy to catastrophize and imagine and feel what could go wrong. To me, Trump being elected once was impossible, twice, even more impossible. Obama being elected was also impossible. So, we don’t know what will happen next. I aspire to live with a sense of uncertainty over pessimism.
And, choosing kindness, is a world I want to inhabit as much as possible.
One way to contend with the difficult, daunting worlds is the perspective of Winston Churchill, from a time where London was being fire bombed. His approach, in how to think and lead during horrific times revolved around three practices:
1) No sugar coating – not turning away from what is difficult and painful. Seeing and feeling what is, as much as possible.
2) Cautious optimism – bringing attention to what’s possible, exploring what a positive outcome might look like, and developing a plan of action of how you might get there.
3) Purpose and meaning – returning to the questions and issues of what matters most. Asking the “why” and the “what” questions. Why are we doing this, really? What’s possible?
Practice:
Explore asking and answering this question: What do you call the world?
Bring attention to the worlds of:
· Uncertainty – try on not knowing what will happen next, combined with not-sugar coating.
· Kindness – at home, work, and especially with ourselves, with a touch of cautious optimism.
· Ordinary and sacred – what if everything is ordinary and sacred?
Collections of Zen koans often include some commentary by the collector of the stories. A short poem that is a commentary on the story between two Zen teachers goes like this:
Everything is made up;
Daily life is filled with ordinary matters;
Only those who investigate fully can distinguish the ordinary from the sacred;
Once you investigate fully, you discover there is nothing to seek.
(Muir Woods, first week of February 2025)
A Poem by Rumi (translated by Coleman Barks)
Don’t be satisfied with stories, how things
have gone with others. Unfold
your own myth, without complicated explanation;
Give up wanting what other people have.
that way you’re safe.
This is not a day for asking questions,
not a day on any calendar.
This day is conscious of itself.
This day is a lover, bread, and gentleness,
more manifest than saying can say.
What I’m Watching
September 5 – Great film about the hostage crises during the 1972 Munich Olympics. It raises important questions about media, ethics, truth, and courage. “A tense ethical showdown with the racing pulse of a thriller, “September 5” revisits the day in 1972 when the Munich Olympics became a very different kind of international spectacle.” – Manohla Dargis
Half-Day Meditation Retreat , Sunday, March 30th
In person in Mill Valley and online
Tassajara, Step Into Your Life Workshop , August 26 – 31
Come join me at Tassajara, Zen Mountain Center for a 5-day retreat. Together we’ll follow a gentle schedule of sitting and walking meditation, interspersed with talks and discussions from the wisdom of Zen teaching as we explore how these stories and dialogues may be utilized in our relationships, our work, and our lives.
Warmest regards,
Marc
The post What Do You Call The World? appeared first on Marc Lesser.
