The Sword and Laser discussion
Why is fantasy more popular than scifi?
Aloha wrote: "Then mathematics can only be as reliable as those who speak it. Anne wrote: "You make some mental leaps there. Mathematics change as do those who speak them...languages with strict grammars but ..."
Mathematics is only as reliable as the primary assumptions on which it it based. The expression of math is only as reliable as those who "speak" it.
Same as in applied math or Physics. :oDTangled wrote: "Mathematics is only as reliable as the primary assumptions on which it it based. The expression of math is only as reliable as those who "speak" it.
"
Korzybski's famous quote: "The map is not the territory".
Aloha wrote: "Then mathematics can only be as reliable as those who speak it. Anne wrote: "You make some mental leaps there. Mathematics change as do those who speak them...languages with strict grammars but ..."
One of the reasons to avoid those who are sloppy in the use of languages... particularly those of maths.
Anne wrote: "Aloha wrote: "Then mathematics can only be as reliable as those who speak it. Anne wrote: "You make some mental leaps there. Mathematics change as do those who speak them...languages with strict..."
So that's not what they mean by "fuzzy logic"?
Of course. We are only as reliable as our senses, but it's all we've got. And things exist however our senses interpret them. We can have theories and meta-theories. LOL. Anyhoo, from our original discussion, it's fruitless talking about time in abstract math, since the moment there's time, it becomes Physics. I understand that there are disciplines that are composed only of abstract concepts independent of the physical.
Anne wrote: "Korzybski's famous quote: "The map is not the territory"."
Man I wish this thread came with photos. Mathcat fight!
What fight? We're determining the nature of reality. Mine is a big bowl of chocolate ice cream with nuts on top.
My reality is one where "Mathcat" is an AI that does my fighting for me. Also a "mathcat lady" is someone who collects multiple AIs.
Tangled wrote: "So that's not what they mean by "fuzzy logic"? "
LOL.
A nicearticle on fuzzy logic...
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/log...
As for maps:
I'll have to admit that fantasy is much more accessible or digestible to the reading public than SF. I do agree with the notion that readers assume that SF is filled with a lot of tech science, theory and gadget usage. As for me, I write SF and I'm trying to break down those barriers, getting back to my golden age roots. I want to make storyline and characters just as important as plot and adventure. I think Planet Janitor Custodian of the Stars excels in this fashion. Today SF must be more likable, easier to read and understand, without losing its science base.I wish the nerd factor would leave our present day concept of science fiction, all across the board.
chris
I don't know what you mean by nerd factor, and how you're going to get rid of it in SF. It all comes down to good writing that grabs people, whether you have gadgets or not. Personally, so far, I find science books overall very easy to read. Non-fiction science and postmodern literature is a whole lot more difficult to read. If a SF writer dumbs down in order to reach the general public, s/he may risk losing the fan base of intelligent people who are looking to SF for mental stimulation and wonders of discovery. I'm not sure dumbing down a SF book is going to get more of the general public to pick up a SF book, unless you write a general fiction book with only a tiny bit of SF element, like 11/22/63. I think a SF writer should focus on writing the best story s/he could, focusing on what is personally interesting and exciting to write about. Personally, I'm looking for a SF/postmodern hybrid, like the one of a kind horror/postmodern treasure, House of Leaves. I can't get excited about a book that is simplistic and flat. I like mental and intellectual excitement.
Shhhhhh....people are going to find my secret to debating.LOL! They have a diagram for it, too. That is such a given, I didn't think they had to make a diagram to get people to understand the concept of subjective/objective.
Anne wrote: "Tangled wrote: "
So that's not what they mean by "fuzzy logic"? "
LOL.
A nicearticle on fuzzy logic...
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/log...
As for maps:
"
Rob wrote: "Off Topic: Seeing the Avengers movie did not inspire me to buy Avengers comics or read Avengers books. It did inspire me to buy schwarma."But it does for many people. Comic book shops always see a flux of people coming in after any major superhero movie. Several of my friends asked where they could find stories that would prepare them for (view spoiler) in Avengers 2.
Scott wrote: "Rob wrote: "Off Topic: Seeing the Avengers movie did not inspire me to buy Avengers comics or read Avengers books. It did inspire me to buy schwarma."It worked for my nine-year-old stepson, though. They are his new in-car reading material.
Schwarma is good... especially when sliced with a sword....If I like a movie and haven't read the book I will typically try to find a copy to read. Nothing much makes me read comics. Sometimes I'll track down the radio shows (The Shadow).
Anne wrote: "Schwarma is good... especially when sliced with a sword....If I like a movie and haven't read the book I will typically try to find a copy to read. Nothing much makes me read comics. Sometimes ..."
You're missing out. It's not all superheroes, but even the superhero genre has really brilliant stuff these days.
Yup. Don't turn your nose up at a category. You may find wonderful gems there. That's why I love genre hopping. I learned about art, reading and out there concepts from the comics, since I've been given no directions in my education. So what did a kid like me pick? Comics! And look where they led me! Where? I don't know, but I'm reading and doing creative things a lot. LOL.
I just finished the Tigana audiobook and at the end of it Guy Gavriel Kay has a few things to say about why he chose the fantasy genre to explore some of the themes he incorporated into the book. A pretty interesting read/listen ... could be relevant in this thread!
If it's the same as the the print version, you can read it here:http://www.brightweavings.com/ggkswor...
Jason wrote: "Eric, can you summarize his thoughts?"Jason! you're calling me out on my laziness. I was sort of hoping someone else would check it out and do that for me. I was also reluctant because the narrator of the Afterword (either Guy himself or someone else) has a strange nasaly voice.
He begins by noting that much of the motivation for the novel were actual, historical events (i.e. nonfiction): the systematic changing of names from Gaelic to English in Ireland, the rewriting of history in Maoist China, the feuding of Italian city-states. Brandin of Egrath was modeled after a typical Medici prince.
My impression from listening to the Afterword was that GGK wanted to just play with these ideas (actually horrific events in history) and with certain other ideas that had some sort of intrinsic appeal to him. For example, he says that the initial motivation for the book was just an image of a cabin in the woods, which he became fixated upon. This later became the cabin where Devin first met Alessan and he went from minstrel to revolutionary.
This is all interesting in- and of-itself, but then he said the following, which made me think of this thread:
"These are ambitious elements for what was always meant to be a romantic adventure. They intimidated me as they began to emerge; even recording them now I find myself shaking my head. But beneath them all lies the idea of using the fantasy genre in just this way: letting the universality of fantasy--of once upon a time--allow escapist fiction to be more than just that, to also bring us home. I tried to imagine myself with a stiletto not a bludgeon, slipping the themes of the story in quietly while keeping a reader turning pages well past bedtime."
Yes. Imagine GGK sitting next to you, in bed, with a stiletto.
*ahem* Anyways, reading the Afterword again, I like how he suggests that fantasy can be more than escapism. I didn't totally buy what some people suggested here, that fantasy could be more popular because it provides an escape.
GGK suggests that fantasy is popular because it is "universal". The "once upon a time" is not an outlet that lets us forget or escape, but a way of returning home and reflecting on what is real in our own situations. I buy this because on a personal level, while I was listening to Tigana, I did reflect on my own personal relationships and of my own culture and heritage.
GGK suggests that fantasy is popular because it is "universal". The "once upon a time" is not an outlet that lets us forget or escape, but a way of returning home and reflecting on what is real in our own situations. I buy this because on a personal level, while I was listening to Tigana, I did reflect on my own personal relationships and of my own culture and heritage. Ya know, there's something that. In Cinderella Ate My Daughter: Dispatches from the Front Lines of the New Girlie-Girl Culture Orenstein at one point talks about how we've sanitized or even cut out fairy tales for kids. We've gotten away from their (addmittedly horrific roots). But there are some that suggest that dealing with the horrific in that light sets kids up to be able to deal with horrors in the real world as well. It's not "here's a magical place you can go and be happy"; it's more of a "here's a bad situation for you to start considering, but it's to people who are made up so it's not so bad."
Granted I'm totally sold on that myself; I'm not talking about severed toes or plucked eyes when I read little Kaylee some version of Cinderella but I don't think it's totally wrong either...
Things are changing (for the better), but in general ...Fantasy tends to concentrate on fun plots and characters. But much of science fiction tends to be centered around "the idea" -- an alien artifact discovered in the asteroid belt, terraforming another world, sentient space ships, etc., etc. The characters exist only to observe the idea.
That's in books anyway.
In movies and TV, it's been the total reverse. Up until Jackson's LotR films, there were VERY few successful Fantasy movies or TV shows, but lots and lots of successful science fiction films. And there it was simply a matter of quality. Lots of good science fiction on the screen, but most attempts at Fantasy were laughably awful.
Agreed. I have a harder time with science fiction because sometimes the characters are hard to get to know as they can be overshadowed by the science, space, etc around them. I am a new reader of both genres.
I get bored with anything that's just mindless action. Pretty soon, I see the same MO except with different characters. I'm looking for something that's different from the rest, makes me think while I'm reading it, and memorable afterwards. If SF becomes nothing but mindless action, I'd rather stick to Science news and books.
Mark wrote: "Up until Jackson's LotR films, there were VERY few successful Fantasy movies or TV shows, but lots and lots of successful science fiction films."You're defining Fantasy too narrowly by focusing on the sub-genre of Epic Fantasy.
Fantasy has been the dominant money-maker for the past three decades, especially if you include Science Fantasy (and I do) where the movie *looks* like Science Fiction but actually behaves with the made-up impossibilities of Fantasy. This group would include films like Star Wars, Star Trek, Transformers, Jurassic Park, etc.
But even if you leave Science Fantasy out of it, there are tons of Fantasy films that are among the most popular movies ever:
Toy Story 1, 2 & 3
Pretty much all the Pixar movies, actually
And almost all Disney animated movies
Indiana Jones series
Alice in Wonderland
Ghostbusters
Pirates of the Caribbean
Harry Potter series
Twilight
The Sixth Sense
...& et cetera
Megan wrote: "Agreed. I have a harder time with science fiction because sometimes the characters are hard to get to know as they can be overshadowed by the science, space, etc around them. I am a new reader of ..."What kind of books have you enjoyed so far?
I would recommend the original Dragonriders of Pern series by Anne McCaffrey: Dragonflight, Dragonquest and The White Dragon. Vivid characters and a cool story. (Science Fantasy.)
Also Larry Niven's Known Space series. Start off with the short story collection Neutron Star and then go on to Ringworld.
A recent Fantasy with really well-defined characters I quite liked was The Warded Man and the sequel The Desert Spear by Peter V. Brett.
Most sci fi these days are more horrific, and less space opera. Space opera is more engaging to the general populace. You only have to look at the movies, Serenity was a flop "Space opera" and Prometheus "Horror" looks to be a hit this summer.
Roger wrote: "Most sci fi these days are more horrific, and less space opera. Space opera is more engaging to the general populace. You only have to look at the movies, Serenity was a flop "Space opera" and Prom..."How was Serenit a flop? Did I miss something?
Prometheus only did well because it had a small link to the Alien franchise. I actually thought that Prometheus was terrible for all the reasons i dislike Sci fi(view spoiler). I hate movies that don't explain anything and are supposed to make you "wonder." Sloppy writing in my opinion and a lot of sci fi goes this route.
I've never found Fantasy all that interesting. I've not read Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings makes me fall asleep. However, Sci-Fi novels seem so much more vibrent and alive to me. Where as Fantasy seems dark, depressing and, well, boring. Plus, I like to use the video game enalergy... I like, neigh, Love to play Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas (futuristic post-apocalyptic first person action RPG) however, the same company (Bethesda) makes the Elder Scrolls games (fantasy first person RPG), which I don't particularly like. Yes, Skyrim was a massive improvement, but it still didn't live up to Fallout to me.
Mod
It made less money back than it cost. That is a financial flop.
I loved it and Firefly. The general public weren't as interested as us browncoats.
Science Fiction is in decline because Science in general is in decline.
James wrote: "I've never found Fantasy all that interesting. I've not read Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings makes me fall asleep. "Eck, those are like the worst two fantasy novels for any fantasy noob out there. LotR is very slow in the first book and ASoIaF isn't a good start either.
I would say if you really wanted to try out something from fantasy, you need to start with a well written, fast paced one. I suggest these two:
The Name of the Wind captivating and amazingly written
or
The Way of Shadows if you are more into action
Aloha wrote: "Can you expand that, Joe?"Interest in science in our youth is pretty much at an all time low. So much so that we are forced to bring in the cream of the immigrant crop just to keep our tech industries going. I've worked in Aerospace all my adult life and anticipated my children and grandchildren would embrace science careers as well (not literally because my children DO work in science related fields) but trying to recruit new young talent from "born here" Americans is nearly impossible. Enthusiasm for STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) subjects is very weak. This is not a xenophobic rant, just a reflection of the lack of enthusiasm for STEM in America.
Unfortunately, that is true, Joe. The educational system as far as science is really pitiful, where it's one size fits all. In fact, they were discussing in the Science & Inquiry forum where in some areas, they are even changing math to be one level for everyone. Basically, they prefer to dumb down education to suit the masses who are poor in math and science education, rather than try to pick out and encourage the bright ones.
Hmmmm...if there's a high demand for engineers, maybe I should go back to engineering and give up everything artistic. Not! LOL.
Kind of sad for "born here" Americans, but great for ambitious immigrants. Bottom line, I believe the decline of science parallels the decline in science fiction.
Kp wrote: "LotR is very slow in the first book"Yeh, tell me about it... I fell asleep inside of 3 pages of The Fellowship of the Ring. Not tried again since, attempted the Unabridged Audiobook, with limited success
Added both your suggestions to my "to-read" list. I do actually own a copy of The Way of Shadows, I just haven't got round to reading it. The reason I bought it though was terrible. I bought it because it looks like Assassin's Creed in book form. Anyhow, it may move much higher up my schedule.
Many Thanks... James
Aloha wrote: "Hmmmm...if there's a high demand for engineers, maybe I should go back to engineering and give up everything artistic. Not! LOL."Could have the best of both worlds... I have qualifications in Electronic Engineering, Computing and Photography.
I've gone rogue for so long, I don't think I can work with a team. Well, my qualifications allow me to understand Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, at least. I was also pre-med so I understand the biology part along with the math, art and music. I was one of those early admissions kids that toolk college microbiology at 16, and now I'm drawing on the computer, taking and filtering photos. Life is unexpected and fun. One thing I am is flexible. It's good to be well-rounded, eh, James? And we're here because we love literature.
Joe wrote: "Kind of sad for "born here" Americans, but great for ambitious immigrants. Bottom line, I believe the decline of science parallels the decline in science fiction."Unfortunately, the US is denying immigrants in record numbers because we're so terrified of potential terrorists. It's causing a huge "brain drain" from American science and tech companies. Singapore, China and Germany are the new places to be. We're well on our way to becoming a new third world country that's dominated by religious zealots. Not unlike any of a number of Middle East countries.
Here's a hope, a 9 year old college student who wants to be a doctor and a scientist. Love how enthusiastic he is about science:http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/...
Aloha wrote: "Here's a hope, a 9 year old college student who wants to be a doctor and a scientist. Love how enthusiastic he is about science:http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/......"
The kid is like a real life version of Bean from Ender's Game.
To be honest, the lack of interest in STEM I think stems from the way we teach STEM in our schools. They tend to be the most hated classes because they tend to be rigid and boring. Personally I find Math and Physics really boring but chemistry and biology actually kind of fun. Our teachers forget or are not required to make parallels to our current world and how what they are teaching has affected many of our advancements.
I don't really have anything to add to the conversation, except that it made me think of an excellent book I read years ago that deals with time. Have any of you read Einstein's Dreams by Alan Lightman? It is a work of fiction and present's a group of stories or "dreams" Eistein had while working in the patent office and coming up with his theory of relativity. These dreams imagine different worlds where time acts differently than it does on earth. It's a short work (less than two hundred pages). Highly recommended!
Thanks for the recommendation. It's up my alley and I need an "E" book for my Alphabet Challenge this year.
James wrote: "I've never found Fantasy all that interesting. I've not read Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings makes me fall asleep. However, Sci-Fi novels seem so much more vibrent and alive to me. Where as F..."I would say that when it comes to RPGs, I enjoy the mechanic of the game, hence Fallout 3 and Skyrim are equally engaging as they are so well crafted.
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea (other topics)The Hunt for Red October (other topics)
Tigana (other topics)
Stranger in a Strange Land (other topics)
Silver Moon (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Kelley Armstrong (other topics)Patricia Briggs (other topics)
Neil Gaiman (other topics)
N.K. Jemisin (other topics)
Stephen R. Donaldson (other topics)
More...
Anne wrote: "You make some mental leaps there. Mathematics change as do those who speak them...languages with strict grammars but living languages nevertheless. "