Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
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Audra Rickman
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Feb 06, 2011 11:06AM
The British accent is lovely until they say the word "schedule." Then I want to drive a stake into my ear. Riding the train from London to Cardiff, I about jumped off just to avoid the word.
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You know, the question of whether or not to use dialect, phonetic spellings, is far too simple to answer easily. There are too many variables. For example, tolerances among people are going to vary a lot. The examples that Anna gave above would likely make me close the book. I simply would not be invested enough to slog through it. Anna clearly was, as are many many readers, and I'd suggest that Jacques (the author) doesn't miss me a bit, because I wasn't his natural audience, anyway. So some of this is about audience, and who an author is writing for.I think another aspect of this is in identifying the purpose of the novel. In an m/m romance, where the central story is a romance between two people, I think an author needs to be very careful about how much dialect/slang to include. In a good romance, there are subplots and themes, of course, so this will vary depending on that. E.g., I try to write stories that have a cultural focus/theme and that is part of why I'm following the discussion closely. If using Josh's as an example, some of his have cultural themes (e.g., Out of the Blue, or A Vintage Affair, whereas others don't so much (e.g., his series more focused on mystery, Adrien and Kit). And the language he uses reflects that. Of course none of Josh's will have really heavy dialect because that would detract from the central purpose of the story, which is essentially, entertainment via mystery and romance.
Audra doesn't really say what the book she quoted from is about, but I bet that the cultural story is central.
And in a famous example (at least in some circles), Anthony Burgess's A Clockwork Orange invented an entire dialect and used it ruthlessly throughout the book. I'll tell you that it was hard slogging through, but it was worth it to me, because the dialect was a central part of the story. In some respects, it *was* the story. But in a romance, I'd've thrown the book across the room in disgust.
I think it's a careful dance, for the m/m author, feeling one's way into how much is enough to give verisimilitude, vs how much is too much so that it becomes self-conscious. It's subtle, and I don't think there are hard and fast rules, even within one author's work, much less within an entire genre.
The book I quoted from is "The Help." The cultural story is indeed central to the book. It is about a woman in her early 20's from Jackson, Mississippi and the maids/women that have raised her and her friends. It is at the cusp of the civil rights movement and each chapter is told from a different character's POV. There is no way one of the maids could speak in the same voice as the college educated main character and be true to the story.I still can't stand the British "schedule."
Mod
I think you're right. For older children and young teens, reading the Redwall series can be a lot of fun. Plus, if you listen to Jacques reading out loud... you get sucked in because he can read it right, and he's got SUCH an amazing voice. But, all those dialects that he uses are a part of the story. Redwall would not be the same without them. I think that's part of the charm for kids. I can't tell you how many times I laughed out loud at a hare's cheerfulness in the middle of battle, all thanks to his dialect. I loved it as a kid.
But something like m/m romance, doesn't require it as much, unless of course your main character can't understand the people around him, and that's used to keep the reader somewhat in the dark as well. If your story is set in the deep American south, and there are no outsiders there, I don't see a need when everyone will be speaking the same. If you had an outsider appear in the setting, then his dialect might get noticed by the other characters, and should be picked up on by the readers. Just don't over do it, of course.
You're right. There are no hard and fast rules about this. Heck, there are no hard and fast rules for just about anything in writing fiction, and that's both an awesome thing, and a complicated, annoying thing at the same time!
On the other hand, it also comes down to where the writer lives and how the writer talks himself. Because sometimes that leaks into a story and makes a difference, whether intentional or not. Especially if you've lived in one place your whole life and don't even realize what is part of your region's dialect and what isn't. There have been many times I've almost had characters saying something like "Oh! That's so wicked!" But if they're in the deep south, they wouldn't. I just happen to hear it all the time in New England. So, there's always that to consider as well.
LOL, I respectfully submit that "wicked" isn't just a Yankee thing--we rednecks say it too. Well, this one does, anyway. LOL.
*lol* Kari. I might say, "Well now..." (imagine deep Tx drawl), "'wicked' does seem a mite yank, to me, and West Virginians? Hell, they're just rural yanks, is all. So no surprise if they use those yank words."(yes, I know where the Mason-Dixon line is, Texans don't care, y'all are yanks, far too close to New York City to claim otherwise).
Isn't regionalism WEIRD?
LOL, Ocotillo, I get away with it because my mother was a Yankee (she's more hillbilly than the natives now, tho, LOL), I was born Yankee and lived up North the first 10yrs of my life, and then to add insult to injury, I married a Yank...People just expect me to be more than a bit tetched.
;-)
Rereading that, it's overly 'goading', and obscures a point I was trying to make while yanking (no pun intended) a chain.Yankee is one of those words that seems to get defined in a way that does the best job of excluding oneself while including as much of the rest of the country as possible. Thus WV and Md use the Mason-Dixon line, Texans by and large reject that, and of course, then a brit comes along, raises an eyebrow, and says "you are all of you yankees."
And of course, the term 'yankee' among U.S. people comes to mean 'city person' as opposed to redneck, which is sort of a whole other ball of wax, and it is all in this bid to feel somehow both outside and included. Regionalism, which I love (I do self-identify as southwestern -- TX/NM) but also get impatient with sometimes. Because it can get pretty silly when taken too seriously.
Just chatting. And was realizing that the intended irony/lampoon of my own people in the above post wasn't coming through quite right.
Kari wrote: "LOL, Ocotillo, I get away with it because my mother was a Yankee (she's more hillbilly than the natives now, tho, LOL), I was born Yankee and lived up North the first 10yrs of my life, and then to ..."Shoot. GR updating is weird. I updated before hitting post on that last one (in case you'd posted while I was composing), but this somehow didn't come through. :\
Anyway, relieved that the prev post didn't come out sounding snotty to you. :)
Ocotillo, Yankee or redneck, neither designation is goading to me at all.I don't define Yankee/redneck by the Mason Dixon, though. I've crawled around too many battlefields and have too many friends and family who are re-enactors -- for me it's always been about which side of the war a state fought on. :D
GR weirdness on this end, too. I give up, LOL. Time to raid my Kindle for smut. LOL
Kari wrote: "Ocotillo, Yankee or redneck, neither designation is goading to me at all.I don't define Yankee/redneck by the Mason Dixon, though. I've crawled around too many battlefields and have too many frie..."
Yeah, sue me, I was worried more about the perception of goading than in actually succeeding. Kind of a pride-thing. Not wanting people to think I'm actually like that, you know? But I do find it fascinating how loaded the term is. Of course, growing up overseas I heard it a lot applied to me (not in a good way -- this was latin america, and grafitti that said, yankee go home) then going back home to Texas where the word had such a different meaning and all of a sudden, I *wasn't* a yank, and proud of it.
Just a sort of microstudy in culture that fascinates me.
Mod
NK- I'm listening. Just a few days later than you are talking. :)
Yes, Green Glass Beads is a cool title.
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I've been watching the Thin Man movies in prep for This Rough Magic, and I find myself wishing there were more like them. Obviously not exactly the same thing, but close enough. Certainly something that captures all my favorite elements and the quality of the original. I WANT the same thing again. Just like I WANT my steak cooked the same way every time. Granted, I don't want steak every day, but when I do, I want it the way I like it.
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Josh said: I wish I did because there's nothing more useful when you go to write a sequel than already having the info on someone's eye color and make of car and where they wen..."
I kept character bibles for Jake and Adrien. I was a lot more organized back then. I think that's part of the problem of writing as fast as I do these days. There isn't time for niceties. I think the work does suffer a little.
Not keeping bibles does definitely make the job harder -- for the Dangerous Ground series, I end up reading all the books again. That's not necessarily a bad thing because it reawakes their voices in my mind.
Mod
Thanks, Anna. And Murphy very wisely reminded me off line that my listing the stories that weren't my my favorites might bother those who do love those stories, so I want to add that I've never released a single title that I didn't think was well-written. At least to the best of my ability.
Sometimes a story might not be a favorite more because of what was going on in my life at the time I wrote it. Sometimes all I can think of is the work involved. I think The Dark Farewell is one of the best things I've written as far as the historical detail, the themes, the writing itself...but as proud as I am of it, it's not one of my warm fuzzy feeling stories.
Sometimes it's difficult -- as the author --to predict how a story will do. And a lot of my stories really do require a second read. Again and again I'll hear from someone who'll say they enjoyed such and such a story, but on the second read they loved it.
Anyway, all you can do is go with your heart. If you love a story, if you've thought it all out and you believed it was strong enough before you started writing, then you have to have faith in it once the work gets hard.
Mod
I think part of what spoiled DLB for me was there were a number of reviews that came out saying it was like everything else I'd written and it was too much like the Adrien English series. I thought those were stupid comments, but they did manage to ruin my pleasure in what I thought was a neat little non-murder mystery.
The thing that attracted me about 'Don't look back' is the amnesia, which is something I've been toying with for years to write about. I keep ending up with ideas and characters, but until now, I've never managed to pull through ... one day I'll find a way, but until then, I'll just enjoy other's stories about amnesia.
I LOVE amnesia stories when they're well done.
Mod
Thanks, Anna. Thanks, Leah. Those are perfect comments to read as I begin a new project.
Mod
Interestingly, I don't really care for cowboy stori..."
When I was growing up I read stacks and stacks of westerns. That's all my grandfather read. So I read tons of Zane Grey, Max Brand, Louis L'Amour. I think I would have fun doing some kind of a take on a western. Maybe not a historical -- but maybe.
I remember when I was first researching this genre, Torquere seemed to have lots and lots of firefighter stories, so I figured they were a staple in the genre.
I actually find fire very alarming. That might be one reason I've given it wide berth.
Josh, what is your favorite story/book you have written? Which one are you most proud? If a person could only read one of your books which one would you want them to read?(I'm not sure if that is all one question or 3??!! ;). So answer however you wish)
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Nothing bothers..."
Thanks, Heather. I do try and get the details right. I also try to really break up the number of stories with characters who have chronic health issues or disabilities. So readers who are uncomfortable with such, should still find plenty of fun stuff to read.
Of course depending on random selection, someone could indeed read seven stories in a row where a character had some kind of illness, and conclude that's all I write.
So thanks to Lia and her handy dandy spread sheet!
http://bit.ly/9jgVZp
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Dialect can be a tricky thing and sometimes it tak..."
A little bit goes a very long way. You just want enough to give a flavor. Anything more and the seams start to show.
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NK- That Lia is one of the handiest people around.
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Part of it is our reading tastes have changed considerably. I can imagine the battle Mark Twain would have with editors these days. Or Dickens. Or the pulp writers.
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Ideally, you want both. You need collequialisms, yes, you need to capture the cultural mindset and references of the character, but there's nothing more effective--in my opinion--than the *judicious* use of accent and dialect.
Does it need to be subtle. You bet. And too much is worse than none.
But the use of dialect, inflection, accent go to character voice, and if the characters come from diverse backgrounds, you have to make an extra effort that they don't all sound the same.
Rule of thumb: you almost always need less than you think you do.
Mod
Ideally, you want both. You need collequialisms, yes, you need to capture the cultural mindset and references of the character, but there's nothing more effective--in my opinion--than the *judicious* use of accent and dialect.
Does it need to be subtle. You bet. And too much is worse than none.
But the use of dialect, inflection, accent go to character voice, and if the characters come from diverse backgrounds, you have to make an extra effort that they don't all sound the same.
Rule of thumb: you almost always need less than you think you do.
Mod
I think maybe the way to think of it for a writer is almost symbolic usage of dialect, etc. Meaning, rather than try to exactly recapture the sound of the Deep South or Eskimos, you use just enough verbal cues so that the reader knows to fill in the blanks.
The reader already tries to read each character in a different voice. Think for a minute when you're reading, and you'll see that you do instinctively change the voices in your mind, but it helps, it makes the experience more real and intense, if the writer has tossed you a few clues. Just a few. Just enough for your imagination to grab it and run with it.
Mod
I think maybe the way to think of it for a writer is almost symbolic usage of dialect, etc. Meaning, rather than try to exactly recapture the sound of the Deep South or Eskimos, you use just enough verbal cues so that the reader knows to fill in the blanks.
The reader already tries to read each character in a different voice. Think for a minute when you're reading, and you'll see that you do instinctively change the voices in your mind, but it helps, it makes the experience more real and intense, if the writer has tossed you a few clues. Just a few. Just enough for your imagination to grab it and run with it.
Mod
What's fascinating to me is how many of our British writers get that one wrong!
An educated man in the 1920s would not say "Don't be an arse." He'd say "Don't be an ass." Because he's talking about the mule, the foolish donkey, and to refer to another man's arse in polite conversation would be unlikely. You see this again and again and AGAIN in the actual fiction of the era. Lord Peter does not say, "Don't be an arse." Maybe Bunter might say such a thing to the shoeblack. The use of "ass" versus "arse" is going to depend on class and circumstance.
Mod
Loff my ahrse ahff.
Josh wrote: "The reader already tries to read each character in a different voice. Think for a minute when you're reading, and you'll see that you do instinctively change the voices in your mind, but it helps, it makes the experience more real and intense, if the writer has tossed you a few clues. Just a few. Just enough for your imagination to grab it and run with it."One of the best Italian contemporary mystery writer Andrea Camilleri writes books set in Sicily. He writes in Italian but he adds here and there words that come from the Sicilian dialect but are used as if they were proper Italian words - for example, instead of saying "uscire" (to go out) he says "trasire" and inflects the verb as if it were a legitimate Italian verb. His characters have all the flavor of his land without speaking another language (for a Northern Italian like me, the Sicilian dialect is a whole different language).
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(I'm not sure if that ..."
Jeez. I don't know. I love the Adrien books, but I almost don't count them with everything else. I'm enormously proud of Strange Fortune. Because I was having to learn the rules of a whole new genre, it was like taking a writing course from Nikki Kimberling, so when I think of that book, I almost don't remember the book so much as what I learned writing the book.
It kind of changes with time and with my mood. But I'm very fond of--very proud of--Snowball in Hell. The Dickens With Love is another one. In Sunshine or In Shadow--even though it's just a short story.
I honestly don't know what single book I'd recommend because *I* think they're all quite different. Of course I could be wrong about that!
Mod
NK- That Lia is one of the handiest people around."
That's for sure. There are a lot of us who only have websites and up to date GLBT Bookshelf pages because of her!
Mod
That's a great technique. As Kari pointed out, the more you use an accent or a dialect, the higher the risk that you're going to get it wrong.
And yet there are instances -- Clockwork Orange, to use Octotillo's example, or a fantasy novel where the writer has created a whole language where the accent and dialect becomes a huge part of worldbuilding.
In most genre fiction, you don't want anything too distracting, too jarring from the main point of the story. Fantasy probably is the exception there.
Josh wrote: "I think part of what spoiled DLB for me was there were a number of reviews that came out saying it was like everything else I'd written and it was too much like the Adrien English series. I thought those were stupid comments"I agree those were stupid comments. I love that story. I love the amnesia and how it was dealt with. How everything was new to the character and how he questioned himself.
Mod
Thank you. That was the intent -- that the mystery was really one of character. There was nothing of Adrien in there. It was someone who obviously hadn't read the book -- or the Adrien books -- but it only takes a couple of those.
That book does have its loyal readers, which was my original point. As an author, it's hard to guess what readers will warm to or not warm to. Some books develop legs over time, some sink like a stone. Sometimes it has to do with the book, but sometimes it has to do with outside things -- right down to the time of year a story releases.
Josh wrote: "I honestly don't know what single book I'd recommend because *I* think they're all quite different. Of course I could be wrong about that!"
I have the same problem picking my favorite book of yours! I like all of them for different reasons.
Mod
"
I have the same problem picking my favorit..."
As the writer it's always interesting to hear what books readers most enjoy--even when they pick something that surprises me.
Josh, I'm still working my way through your backlist, but a recommend different books to different people. All depends on what I think they will like. As for the ones I have read, I couldn't pick just one because I liked each for different reasons. They are all so varied and you really do have something for everyone
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Thanks, Heather. I hope so. It's what I aim for.
I'll always recommend the first Adrien English, because for me it was like discovering a new world, I felt like I was given a gift and I felt Adrien was telling the story to ME :)
Ohh that's a hard one. My favourite depends on my mood. The book I've read most often is The Ghost Wore Yellow Socks, then I am very fond of Cards on the Table. I Spy Something Wicked moved me more than any of the others and of course there is always Adrien....They will all stand up to multiple rereads.
If I have to choose, I would say AE because of its emotional impact. I love All She Wrote because I'm enjoying reading about Kit coming to terms with his demons. I like The Dickens With Love because it's clever.Clearly, I have to track down I Spy Something Wicked, though.
Patty, I found I Spy to be very emotional too. And more romance. Not really any mystery. So different from the others you listed but just as great
Emanuela ~Zstyx~ wrote: "I'll always recommend the first Adrien English, because for me it was like discovering a new world, I felt like I was given a gift and I felt Adrien was telling the story to ME :)"Beautifully said. I agree completely. I mean, how many books can you remember the first lines to years later?
Rob wrote: "Emanuela ~Zstyx~ wrote: "I'll always recommend the first Adrien English, because for me it was like discovering a new world, I felt like I was given a gift and I felt Adrien was telling the story t..."With AE, I felt as though I WAS Adrien. That was an experience I've rarely had becoming so deeply immersed in a character. Part of that was the fact that there were parts of Adrien's life/hobbies that are similar to mine, but I still feel as though I have white noise in my head when I think about Adrien's emotions- the feelings just blot out everything else.
I love AE because...
You know Josh, I always thought the first AE book would be a great book to offer as a freebie on Amazon, because there is no way someone can read it and NOT want to read the rest of them. They would be hooked for sure!
Leah
You know Josh, I always thought the first AE book would be a great book to offer as a freebie on Amazon, because there is no way someone can read it and NOT want to read the rest of them. They would be hooked for sure!
Leah
I'm still speechless when it comes to saying why I love AE. I have no words lol
@Josh, do like all of your work, but might be a little different in that I think my faves are the I Spy couplet and Snowball. Oh. And The Dark Farewell. Oh, and Dickens and Out of the Blue, and *sigh*... :)I enjoy your historicals, in part because of the time period you choose. Just... different and interesting.
Chiming in with the chorus: AE series would be my desert island keeper without fail. It IS all that and a box of cracker jacks. I think what sets it apart from most all other stories out there (in the same genre or not), is that it tells a realistic human story. Well, other than stumbling upon murder after murder. ;) But, the non-murder bits are normal and real and readers can relate to what Adrien is going through. They can understand Jake and Guy and Lisa and Angus through Adrien's eyes. (Though I still dislike Guy with an unreasonable passion!) I have quite the fondness for GWYS. It was the first book I read of Josh's and had to buy everything available by him after that. I would so love to see more of Perry and Nick.
Also have quite the interest in Darkling Thrush - another I'd love to read more about in this universe.
The Holmes and Moriarity series is so good for so many reasons. It's similar to the AE series only in that it too is human and normal and real (between the murders). A reader can identify with Kit with all his snark and defenses; can see those around him as they are through his eyes. They are symmetry with humor and love and passion.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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