Writing Questions for Josh Showing 301-350 of 4,753

[Josh]

Anna wrote: "lol, speaking of titles, I had a great one lined up for my current novel about two detectives that fall in love, and then realized that the Faith and Fidelity series had already stolen my idea for ..."

I think you do have to pay attention to titles because they *are* a marketing tool. This is why mainstream publishers will often insist that a working title be changed to something more catchy. For a while there every cozy mystery was some godawful pun. Ugh. Even readers started to complain, but at first those titles were were considered a factor in how well those books sold.

I give thought to titles, yes, but they usually come to me pretty quickly. I think the only one of my titles I didn't come up with was Strange Fortune. I seem to recall picking that from a list Nikki Kimberling sent me.

Anyway, the original title was called The White Mountains, which I thought was not bad -- however Nikki pointed out that there were already plenty of books called The White Mountains. She had some other points too, which I now forget, but the upshot was Strange Fortune which I do think is a much better title.

(I hope she lets me keep Green Glass Beads for my Irregulars novella, though -- are you listening, Nik?)

When I pick a title I try to match it to the type of story it is. For the Dangerous Ground series I go for punchy two word titles: Old Poison, Blood Heat, Night Moves, etc. They seem sort of sexy and action-adventurey, which is what that series is about.

For more angsty or romantic stories something more like...Come Unto These Yellow Sands or The Darkling Thrush. Stuff that feels romantic but maybe a little mysterious.

I like to quote from poems or songs if I can make the song or poem work with the story.

Now that I'm writing this, I think we discussed this way back earlier in this thread? I recall people saying that they didn't care for unpronounceable one word titles that no one understood. Sometimes they can intrigue, but mostly they're hard to remember and hard to search and they don't click any associations for the reader.

I do usually check to make sure no one in this particular genre is already using the title.

I think I might have worked the phrase "the hell you say" into a subsequent edition of FS? I can't remember now. But I do sometimes get ideas from phrases or dialog in earlier books of a series.

[Josh]

Finding titles is not easy. And I hate having WIP without titles. So, once I have a basic plot, that's one of the next things I think about. One story I've been working on for a few years is still untitled. Heh, I wish there was an easy way to come up with titles. I guess for some it's easier than for others.

I know what you mean. And sometimes the title will help focus the theme of the book too. I don't like to start writing until I have a title. Though sometimes a better title will occur along the way.

[Andy]

Josh wrote: "I think you do have to pay attention to titles "

I hate coming up with titles. It comes right after writing blurbs. If it were up to me everything would be called 'Untitled'.

[Josh]

All that has been immensely helpful, but frankly, it's time consuming as hell, and I can't imagine doing this if one is to publish more than a book or two a year -- even full time.

I think those are incredibly useful tools for writers at first. I do recommend doing them -- it's often in filling out those charts that great ideas for plot and theme will come to you. Because the best story ideas come from the characters. At least the kind of plots that I like to write.

Eventually you do develop your own character shorthand and I don't keep charts or biographies anymore. I wish I did because there's nothing more useful when you go to write a sequel than already having the info on someone's eye color and make of car and where they went to school. That stuff does blend together after 20+ books, no matter how carefully those choices were originally made.

[Josh]

I'm afraid I'll choose one thing, and then once it's complete and edited and on it's way to a publisher I'll change my mind again. *sigh* I did take a break from it, for awhile, and that's how I came to write the story about the two detectives, which I love, and I have no problems with that one, save for getting the facts right. So, I'm glad about that... but still... the old novel won't leave my mind!

This could be a couple of things, but since you do still love the characters and want to write about them, I'm guessing you're putting too much pressure on the story you want to tell. You're expecting too much out of it and it's inhibiting the writing.

That's one possibility. Another is simply that the idea part of the process is always a lot more fun and magical than the actual writing. When we envision a story it's always so much better than writing. When we start writing we begin to see the holes in the plot and the flaws in the characters and it's always hard work and we start to get other ideas that seem much stronger and more enticing.

I've been there many times and I've abandoned many stories because they suddenly didn't seem worth writing any more. Among those stories are Cards on the Table (which did vastly change from its original conception), The Ghost Wore Yellow Socks (which didn't signifcantly change at all), and I Spy Something Bloody. Those were all stories I gave up on and moved to other projects because I just lost faith in the work. I grew bored and the stories seemed flat and not worth finishing.

But when I went back years later, I saw that they were as strong as anything I'd bothered to finish. The only real difference seemed to be that I'd bothered to finish the other stories!

There is a third possibility and that is that the story -- the plots and conflict you're coming up with aren't yet strong enough to carry through. Which means you have to outline it all very objectively and clinically and see that you have enough meat in that plot. That you have sufficient conflict between the characters and that you're not mistaking bickering for real and fundamental conflict.

And there is this sort of depressing but quite real fact: every idea is not as strong as every other idea, but that doesn't mean it's not worth finishing the book (novella, novel, short story, whatever). If you become a professional writer it means you will commit to a project and sometimes in the middle of a project you'll realize that the fundamental premise is just not that brilliant. That you maybe don't love the characters nearly so much as you thought you did. That the book isn't going to be one of your favorites.

I've never turned out a single project that wasn't the best I could do -- and I think they all compare very favorably to the typical m/m fare -- but there are a few of my stories I don't particularly care for. Anita mentioned Don't Look Back as one she wanted to re-read -- that's a story I don't particularly care for. I'm not that crazy about Ghost of a Chance or Cards on the Table or Lovers and Other Strangers. I think they're all well-written. I did my best. But I don't have a warm, fuzzy feeling for them. It'll probably be years before I bother to even glance at them again. (Granted, that's true of most of my stuff.)

And yet...and yet I have readers who LOVE those stories and dearly want to see some follow up to them.

Assuming the analytical part of your brain has given your story outline the green light, you just need to commit and follow through on it to the end. A story is organic and so you'll stumble over holes and inconsistencies, and you'll work to fix them and the story will continue to grow and take shape. That's kind of what writing is.

As for how good the story really is? I think only time can tell you that. But you have to finish in order for that to happen.

[Josh]

Patty wrote: "Josh, I was reading a newspaper article yesterday about a fire-fighter who was retiring after many years of cumulative injuries while on the job. She was one of the first-responders when the I35 br..."

Fire-fighters -- or cowboys. Could there be two more commercial ideas? ;-D I do indeed need to write a story about each of those.

[Josh]

Patty wrote: "Josh, this is really cool to read. One of the units I like teaching most to my 9 and 10 year old students is the fiction writing piece. We spend a lot of time on character development. The kids hav..."

Character development is the most fun of the entire writing process, I think.

[[deleted user]]

Josh:

I would love your take on INTROSPECTION. Here's where I'm coming from:

I bought the last book of one of my fave author's series (#5 and LONG awaited), probably one of the last books I will walk into a bookstore and actually pay full price for. Unlike other fangirls of this series, I kept myself occupied with other things (M/M, writing, etc.) to stay as far away from this series as to NOT be overly anxious and ruin the finale - if you sit on top of a series, no matter how great that book is, it will NOT match up to your expectations! So I was ready for a nice read, book-in-hand, ready for complete closure.

Bottom line: I don't like it. And it's not because 1) there really isn't any closure, 2) so many plot lines are unanswered and still dangling (more than likely for future books to spin-off), or 3) because 2 of the most loved secondary characters end up being bad guys/gals, all of this would be enough right? No, it's the endless, mind-numbing introspection of the main character! Pages, upon pages, upon pages of it. One scene has this protag "wondering to herself" for about 6 pages straight.

Don't get me wrong, this author is amazing and talented. Her world-building is unlike any I have ever read. I'm talking Middle Earth level stuff here. And I also LOVE the fact that this series is told in first person POV - which she did great! But, is it just me, or is having approx. 200 pages of a 500 page book nothing but FP POV introspection a bit much? Seriously, my writing is quite lacking if I need that much analysis of my protags mental processes.

In your opinion, how much is enough and how much is too much.

Leah

[Josh]

Andy wrote: "Josh wrote: "I think you do have to pay attention to titles "

I hate coming up with titles. It comes right after writing blurbs. If it were up to me everything would be called 'Untitled'."

Or Working Title.

Yes. It sort of has a ring to it...

[Emanuela ~plastic duck~]

Unfinished project?

[Josh]

Emanuela ~Zstyx~ wrote: "Unfinished project?"

Another bestseller!

[Josh]

if you sit on top of a series, no matter how great that book is, it will NOT match up to your expectations! So I was ready for a nice read, book-in-hand, ready for complete closure.

Tell me about it. ;-D

Don't get me wrong, this author is amazing and talented. Her world-building is unlike any I have ever read. I'm talking Middle Earth level stuff here. And I also LOVE the fact that this series is told in first person POV - which she did great! But, is it just me, or is having approx. 200 pages of a 500 page book nothing but FP POV introspection a bit much? Seriously, my writing is quite lacking if I need that much analysis of my protags mental processes.


Can there be too much of a good thing? Sure.

The last book of a series is always going to be somewhat introspective because the writer is usually feeling introspective as the characters and world (s)he's been living with for so long come to an end.

The main character is going to be facing and resolving a lot of issues that have often run the length of the series -- inevitably there will be reflection and meditation on the past and the future. I think readers want this, as a matter of fact.

BUT the amount of this will depend a lot on the type of series it is. We expect Adrien to be in a reflective state of mind. He's nearly died, he's recouperating from heart surgery, he's at a turning point with Jake. Also Adrien's internal voice is a big part of what makes those books work -- and Adrien is a puzzle solver. Most of his mystery solving activity is cerebral.

Would we expect or want a lot of introspection from Will and Taylor? Or Conan the Barbarian? No. Those aren't that kind of books. Will and Taylor are as thinky as we can tolerate. Any more thinky and we won't believe that these are men of action, because men (or women) of action don't tend to be the introspective, reflective type.

If the series has been light and fun-loving up till now -- or fast moving and action-packed -- we expect that to follow into the final book. We want the final book to be everything that came before plus MORE.

But it's a delicate balance because readers do want loose ends tied up and some of that tying up may happen in reflection and introspection. I no longer need to avenge myself on the Vasili Clan because I've come to terms with my father's death.

Basically you want the final book in a series to stay very much in tone with the rest of the series. You don't want something drastically, sharply different because that doesn't feel like an ending, it feels like the road suddenly diverged. If the heroine always spent a lot of time brooding over stuff as she sharpened her swords, you won't be surprised that she continues in that vein. If she wasn't much given to second-guessing herself, you're liable to be impatient if she spends her final hours with you mulling over everything that ever happened.

I do think that it's hard to evaluate the final book in a beloved series on the first read -- reader expectation is very, very high, as you've pointed out. Sometimes a second read allows you to enjoy the book more because what you unconsciously hope or guess the book will be is no longer in conflict with what the book actually is.

[Andy]

Josh wrote: "Eventually you do develop your own character shorthand and I don't keep charts or biographies anymore. I wish I did because there's nothing more useful when you go to write a sequel than already having the info on someone's eye color and make of car and where they went to school"

I have made it a rule that from now on everything gets written down -eye color, favorite food, allergies, if they like long walks in the sunset...
And I should say, written down in one place, as I seem to misplace all the sticky notes I write along the way. And having back up copies would be a great idea as well.

[Andy]

Josh wrote: "Or Working Title.

Yes. It sort of has a ring to it... "

There actually was an Indie film called Untitled. I was jealous that they took my title.

[Kari]

Current short story? "TITLE ME, YOU WENCH" by Kari Gregg

Unfortunately, insulting myself rarely makes a dent. LOL

[Andy]

Kari wrote: "Current short story? "TITLE ME, YOU WENCH" by Kari Gregg

Unfortunately, insulting myself rarely makes a dent. LOL"

LOL, I would buy it ;o)

[Heather C]

I would too, Kari. I'm already intrigued

[Andy]

Heather C wrote: "I would too, Kari. I'm already intrigued"

Exactly. It's intriguing.

[Jordan]

Kari, you've got to write that! I'll buy it! Just for the title alone. lol.

[Oco]

@ Josh and Andy:

Josh said: I wish I did because there's nothing more useful when you go to write a sequel than already having the info on someone's eye color and make of car and where they went to school.

Essentially, what Andy describes is what I've heard referred to as a bible. Basically, you keep a file on hand for every book you write, and whenever you write something like that into the story (eye color, history, names) you transfer it into your 'bible' for a quicker reference than rereading through the book to determine where the name of that street was, anyway.

I do try to keep one for each book, although sometimes I get lazy (and am usually sorry, later). It's also hard to know exactly what you're going to want to know later, so it is imperfect, but for the obvious stuff, it is way helpful.

[Kari]

"Title Me, You Wench" does have certain...uh...interesting?...possibilities for a m/m short...

Not.

LOL. But now plot bunnies are running mad with all the potential stories that could involve lots of wicked fun wenching. Just imagine the cover!

I am a menace to myself. Truly.

[Kari]

Ocotillo wrote: "Essentially, what Andy describes is what I've heard referred to as a bible..."

I did that for What Rough Beast, but only because it's a series. 5 books is pretty effing ambitious for a newbie, especially pacing out the series story arc, and this is a fairly complex paranormal story world, too. Not easy keeping the rules straight in my head of how certain elements work, much less what color xyz from book 1's eye color is. If I didn't have my Blooth Oath lexicon, I would've been a sobbing puddle well before page 50 (or pg5, for that matter) of book 2. LOL

For individual books, eye color, etc goes into my prelims file. It's not all in one spot, no, but if I'm working in a sequel, I'll have gone into the previous book's prelims, anyway.

[Jordan]

Josh,

I have a feeling all of your thoughts might be correct. I am having fun plotting each new idea out, but I am looking for something final, that's just not coming out on paper. Of course, looking at it that way, it might just be my way of trying to use the same characters, as one would in a TV show, having the same character roles, only with different plots. That could be it, since I have been writing fanfic for most of my entire life. lol. If that's it, then I'll just have to come up with a core plot before I write more. lol.

Oiy. The idea of writing fanfic based on my own work is scary. That's what I blame Stephanie Meyer for doing with Breaking Dawn, which read as if she'd let a 14 year old, sex-starved girl write fanfic in place of the actual book four. Scary thought. So I'm going to do my best to avoid that.

But, all of your thoughts do sound plausible, so it might just be a mix of all of them. Which is fine. It'll apparently take time to get this story to where I want it to be. It's just a matter of accepting that there is no easy solution. (Does anyone here have a magic writing potion for this?!)

And, at least I can say I have something else written that I can be proud of, so not all is hopeless or lost.

Thanks for your thoughts Josh!

Edited to say: Totally forgot to mention... all those books you gave up on are some of my absolute faves! I'm glad you went back to them and got them finished. I Spy Something Bloody was just amazing. I really have no words for it other than that. Something about that one always sticks with me.

I know how hard it is to write something when you've fallen out of love with it. I've had that happen to me before and it's not much fun, even when readers are begging for more. But, from the reader's pov, THANK YOU!!! All of those stories are wonderful!

[Blaine]

Josh wrote: "Anita mentioned Don't Look Back as one she wanted to re-read -- that's a story I don't particularly care for. I'm not that crazy about Ghost of a Chance or Cards on the Table or Lovers and Other Strangers. I think they're all well-written. I did my best. But I don't have a warm, fuzzy feeling for them. It'll probably be years before I bother to even glance at them again. (Granted, that's true of most of my stuff.)

And yet...and yet I have readers who LOVE those stories and dearly want to see some follow up to them. "

Yes, you do :D
Though, it's a little depressing to find out one of the stories you love is not cared for by the writer himself. *pout*

The thing that attracted me about 'Don't look back' is the amnesia, which is something I've been toying with for years to write about. I keep ending up with ideas and characters, but until now, I've never managed to pull through ... one day I'll find a way, but until then, I'll just enjoy other's stories about amnesia.

[[deleted user]]

"The thing that attracted me about 'Don't look back' is the amnesia,..."

Anita:

This is what I loved too! I have stated on these discussions before that I can really get into Josh's characters because of their ailments. It makes them very three dimensional and real to me. I love watching them deal with their problems directly related to their disablility.

Leah

[Jordan]

Leah, I couldn't agree more! That's what makes characters really awesome. I haven't read that one yet, but I can't wait. Stories with amnesia are great when they're handled well by the author. Such as White Knight. That was fantastic!

I read a fanfic once that was superbly written where a character had been in a car accident, and when he came out of it, he was asking for his ex, not realizing they'd broken up (I know, this sounds so familiar, right?) They have a rocky time together for many months because the one in the accident was the one who'd broken the marriage and he couldn't remember why. Of course, he never told his husband why either, and that tiny bit of elusive knowledge was hurting both of them because they still loved each other. It took him months to place everything together. And when he finally did remember why, he realized it was such a small trivial thing, he wouldn't say what it was, because it turned out not to be important after all. So, I still don't know why, but they're living HEA, and it doesn't matter. That was one hell of a powerful story for sure.

But, as for other ailments and disabilities, Cards on the Table really got to me, perhaps because I could relate to the main character. Since I have seizures too, relatively new, as his are, I know exactly how he feels and what he's going through. But, even if that wasn't the case, he's still 3D to me, and I would still feel as if I were in his shoes.

Take Dangerous Ground, for example, it's like I can feel each and every bruised rib. It's like I'm right there with them, stumbling through the dark woods trying to escape and not be seen. And that's one of the reasons why I love Josh's work. I'm right there immersed in them, carrying a gun, trying to outwit the bad guys with the good guys. I love that. There's nothing better!

[Heather C]

I'm a nurse and usually hate reading medical related. I've read a few of Josh's stories where the MC has an illness and since he writes them so realistically it doesn't bother me.

Nothing bothers me more then when that start "shocking" someone who has "flatline". That's not protocol!! And why I never watch those medical shows on tv.

[Patty]

Josh wrote: "Fire-fighters -- or cowboys. Could there be two more commercial ideas? ;-D I do indeed need to write a story about each of those. "

Interestingly, I don't really care for cowboy stories, or at least those that are "pure" cowboy. I have trouble with authors attempting to write a drawl. It often seems hokey to me. Admittedly, all my years around horses and trainers have been those who are located in the upper midwest where our accent is along the lines of strong "oh's or "oot" as in I'm going ootside for a bit. I also have trouble suspending disbelief because it's subject I'm familiar with.

I haven't ever read a story about fire-fighters except in Nevada Barr's Anna Pidgeon mysteries.

[Kari]

I dislike cowboy stories. Intensely. Not because of the drawl, although I'm not a big fan of any writer (including myself, LOL) trying to write dialogue in any dialect. Just...*shrug* Don't like it, I guess.

Part of it could be the emphasis on wide open spaces. I was raised in the mountains. Haven't always lived in them, but when I didn't, I felt naked.

Firefighters...Hm. Tory Temple did a firefighter series that was smut-tacular, but I likes me some smut. ;-) G.A. Hauser's Man To Man (and sequels) is paramedics, but good. On Fire and On Fire II by Drew Zachary was a bit of fireman fun, too.

[Audra Rickman]

Kari wrote: Not because of the drawl, although I'm not a big fan of any writer (including myself, LOL) trying to write dialogue in any dialect.

Dialect can be a tricky thing and sometimes it takes a true effort on the readers part to emmerse themselves into a character to the point the dialect disappears. Absoutely nothing to do with m/m, but "The Help" nailed the southern dialect. Being from the south, I know we can be very...touchy about inflection and certain everyday contractions in the language. Miss Stockett could easily have turned the novel into a caricature and become quite offensive. I know even in North Carolina you can tell if someone is from near Raleigh or near Charlotte just from subtle changes in accent.

[Kari]

Oh, I've no doubt that accents and local dialects exist. I just don't think they're done well and they're most often distracting. Make reading the dialogue awkward.

I think--and this is only my opinion here--a writer can get much more mileage by skipping the dialect and going for colloquialisms and/or focusing on patterns & rhythms of speech, word choices, stuff like that. Dialect? Is limited inside dialogue whereas the words we use and how we use them can be buried (salted) inside internal monologue and deep POV. Doing that, the reader is always immersed in local color and the mood of the setting. As a reader, that's what I want. To me, dialect in dialogue is a cheap short cut that tells rather than shows. JMO, of course.

[Oco]

Interesting discussion, and Kari, you lost me until that last post. I guess what you describe IS dialect, to me (whether or not that's the formal definition), but I guess the distraction you are referring to is in trying to make the accent sound in the dialogue, contractions et al. And in that, I agree.

Even for other dialect, I think it needs to be used sparingly. Read a book on writing once (can't remember which author, I've read several) that was pointing out that a written word that is odd somehow (whether it is dialect, foreign, or a curse word) has a weight of something like ten times what that weight would be in real life speech. So you need to scale all of it back to get the same effect.

[Audra Rickman]

Kari said: a writer can get much more mileage by skipping the dialect and going for colloquialisms and/or focusing on patterns & rhythms of speech, word choices, stuff like that.

I guess I'm not really getting the difference. If a writer is using "y'all" and "gonna" and focusing on patterns & rhythms of speech, word choices, stuff like that, isn't that writting in the dialect? I think it can be important, particularly if you have a character from a certain era in a certain location. An pilot form WWII wouldn't talk with the same dialect as southern maid from 1952. I'm not a writer and I'm certainly not trying to argue, I'm just trying to understand - is it the cowboy drawl or all dialects that irk you? Or is a little dialect okay - a "y'all" here and a "right bastard" there enough to convey the overall setting without going overboard?

[Oco]

Not sure, but I think Kari's referring to the unfortunate tendency of some authors to sprinkle every bit of dialogue with every drawl/contraction/elision in their speech patterns. "Ah got 'ta see a man 'bout a hoss," when used for a bit character once or twice can be amusing, but is annoying as hell when one of the main protags does it constantly. And I can name books that do that.

A well-placed y'all every once in a while conveys the accent, reminding the reader that this is a southerner (or whatever) without making reading difficult.

Am I right, Kari -- sorry for butting in if not, just consider it my opinion.

[Kari]

Yes, that's what I was talking about. Ex: "dinna ken" for a Scotsman. *shudder*

I dislike it. Intensely.

That's nearly always a wallbanger offense for me. Or in the case of digital, an insta-trip to my DNF file.

ETA: re the "y'all"s and "gonna"s...It's like salt. Too much spoils the soup. If I have to pause at every line of dialogue to decipher it like Morse code (especially if it's my native dialect)...Er, no.

[Audra Rickman]

I can understand that, and over exaggerated dialect can be annoying.
But here's an example:
"Lord, I pray, if I have to leave her, give her somebody good. Dont't leave her with just Miss Taylor telling her black is dirty and her Grandmama pinchng the thank-yous out a her and cold Miss Leefolt. The doorbell in the house ring again, but I stay put. I'm on do it tomorrow, I say to myself. Just in case, I'm on tell Mae Mobley godbye." *The Help*
Would it make a difference if every section/chapter was written from that characters POV and therefore made more sense to be in their unique "voice?" Again, I think it's a delicate balance between caraciture and making you feel like you become the charater. Sorry, again to bring up "The Help," but I think it's an excellent example of dialect well and powerfully used.

[Kari]

Re rhythm and pattern of speech, word choices, etc...That to me is different than the painfully awkward contractions and etc used in dialogue to "show" local speech. Local color isn't all about speech. It isn't even all about word choices. It's how we think.

A Yankee looks at a deer and thinks aw, how cute. A WVian looks at a deer and thinks mmm, supper or shoot that thing before it wrecks somebody's car or eats up my garden or blah blah blah. That right there screams local color way more than an "ain't" motherload dropped into dialogue.

As for rhythm of speech...Sorry about the girl cooties, but for example, in my last book (vampires), my heroine is contemporary. She speaks--and more importantly, thinks--using modern slang and in shorter, more abrupt sentences. My vamp hero was born before the Reformation. His language (and his thoughts) are more lyrical & flowing, his word choices more formal. I didn't include any archaic word choices for him. I used his pattern of speech. Granted, I did use slang for the heroine, but...I'm a sucker for a good joke and the contrast was just too delicious to resist, LOL.

[Oco]

@ Audra: Actually, that's a good example of what I took from Kari's point. The author is mostly:

and going for colloquialisms and/or focusing on patterns & rhythms of speech, word choices, stuff like that.

But as far as accents go, and trying to write them into dialogue, I don't think you've chosen a good passage. That passage is apparently written, right, not spoken? Written by the character, I mean, not the author. There are misspellings in there that suggest that (Dont't, pinchng, godbye.... unless those are yours?). So it doesn't address the topic of accent in dialogue.

And given that in RL, the character this author is trying to portray would probably butcher the language even more, I'd suggest the author has followed the rule of restraint.

Edited to add: (I suspect you might be reading more into Kari's offhand comment than she meant/said, because you are right, it is a good passage.)

[Oco]

Kari (just caught up with your post), I suspect that you might be a little less tolerant than I am of this, because I don't mind (and even like) the occasional slide into accent/odd words. Just it is very easily overdone.

The thing is, I'm from Texas, and my family is full of thick Texas drawl (being raised overseas pounded mine mostly flat), but whenever I read a character that the author has tried too hard to make them sound Texan, they usually end sounding like an 'idjit' to me.

[Kari]

Yeah, it drives me nuts. A little is fine, but I don't like pausing to translate dialogue. And including "hafta" or "gonna" (even when people genuinely do speak that way) makes me want to scream at my Kindle, "Enunciate! Enunciate!" LOL

[Oco]

'hafta' and 'gonna' are good examples of completely unneeded. Those are elisions (I think), not really representing words but how sounds draw together. "Y'all" on the other hand, is an actually word, so is "ain't". Those can by used sparingly, IMO, but are easily overdone.

[Audra Rickman]

I don't know, I'm a reader and not a writer, so it's questionable if I should be commenting in "Writing Questions for Josh" anyway. I quess my thought is if the whole chapter is written from the point of view of a particular person with a certain educational level, it would feel disingenuous to have her speak or think any other way. Yes, the passage quoted was written - they were the thoughts in her head - but the dialog is exactly the same. Their education is not going to lend itself to proper sentence structure and grammar, but I also felt it was not over done to the point of satire. This is the way it was in those times. I will happily agree to disagree. Although, I'm not sure we are really disagreeing. I think there are writers who exagerate dialect to the point were their characters appear stupid, while others make it clear their charaters are not educated, but otherwise have plenty of common sense.

[Kari]

Audra, I'm sure Josh would be the first to tell you writers and readers both are welcome, LOL. And I don't think we're really disagreeing, either. I've read some fic with characters written entirely in dialect (as in contraction-happy "gonna" speech) that I hated--and some that I didn't. It's just that when it's handled clumsily, I'd rather poke needles into my own eyeballs than read on. ;-) Personally, as a writer, I prefer to be more subtle about setting mood and scene, but that's just what I do. Since I'm not a Nobel laureate (LOL), I think it's safe to assume how I do things shouldn't be considered a standard rule of measure. :D

[Patty]

I'm from MN and my husband is from TX. I lived in Memphis, TN for 6 years. During my military service, I listened to many extreme accents. I'm not a linguistic expert but I've heard many different types of speech. I agree that writing stories in regional areas or countries is tricky. Actually, unless you've lived in a place I don't know how a writer can do the job effectively. I agree with Kari. With research, the words and the effect can be achieved through subtlety; i.e., "Come sit down over here," he murmured in his soft southern accent, drawing out his vowels like a spoon pulling through honey. The occasional expression or even expletive (Bloody damn!) and references to habit and behavior keep the characters from becoming caricatures. Over-doing and inconsistency are my pet-peeves. Authors walk a fine line with dialect/regional accents.

One of the things Josh does so well is to create atmosphere using the pacing of speech patterns and very specific word choice of his characters. Snowball in Hell is a perfect example; I felt as though I was in a 1940s noir film. Strange Fortune is another story that never uses a specific "accent" and yet, I felt as though I was in a land similar to India filled with exotic, lilting, sing-song voices.

I think the problem with dialect and regional accents is that most of us aren't from the places we are reading about. Therefore, it's difficult to read the dialogue easily. I think it can and does pull a reader out of a story if processing what is being read is slowed down by an exercise in translation.

[Oco]

I think we're all in agreement here, actually. I felt like I saw a misunderstanding of what Kari meant, but no disagreement, that I could tell. It's all cool. :) And Audra, you're giving great fodder for conversation, writer or reader, whatever! While writing these posts, I've been thinking critically about my own writing, so I benefit.

Oooh, Patty, I liked your 'i.e.'! :)

[Heather C]

Has anyone read Stacia Kane's Downside Ghosts series? Unholy Ghosts She has created her own dialect know as Down Speech. The MC is educated and speaks properly. But the secondary characters all speak their own version of Down Speech. She has written it so well that once I got used to it, I could actually tell which character was speaking before they were revealed. I must admit that it was very hard to follow in the beginning, but I appreciate the uniqueness of her world.


I haven't read any cowboy books, if any, but I think I would prefer to see the dialect in the speech rather than a repeated description as long as the words are understandable and not overused. I am from Louisiana so it all sounds "country" in my head anyway. I think back in high school when I had to read Huckleberry Finn and couldn't ANYTHING!! That's to extreme for me.

[Audra Rickman]

Another (good) example by Josh is Out Of The Blue. Dusty Texan vs crusty Brit. I liken it to actors that try accents. Meryl Streep, in just about anything, but let's say Out Of Africa...divine. Kevin Costner trying to be British in Robin Hood is awkward and the accent is not always present; it's distracting enough that you don't believe in the character (we won't get into whether it's a crap movie or not.) Since when I read, I hear the voices in my head, I quess that's why I would associate the dialects to actors in movies. A jarring obviously forced accent will ruin the whole novel/movie. A good one transports you and brings you in with the character. Subtle is best unless perhaps you are playing a character for comic relief. I find this happens a lot in Southern novels. Crank up the Southern colloquialisms and darlin you have readers/movie hooked goers faster than a hot knife through butter. See - Steel Magnolias.

[Kari]

Hm. That's interesting, Audra, re movies playing in your head as you read, because that's how I write 'em, LOL. Or rather that's how it starts. I see the characters, the actions playing out in my mind and that's what goes on paper (per se). For the two-dimensional bits, anyway. For the emotion and 5 senses work, I'm in the character's head, but it starts with the movie.

Anyway, I just don't translate speech phonetically (very little in the way of "gonna"s). I may "hear" it that way in the movie, but me trying to carry it off would be quite painful. For me and my readers both. LOL.

I guess that's actually what I meant by the dialect thing. Phonetic -- the dropped consonants/vowels indicated with a bazillion contractions, etc. If I'm working with a contemporary character, particularly a young one, I may drop in a "dunno" if that character is out of it (drunk, sleepy). There's always a reason for it, though. It's salt.

[Jordan]

I know what you mean about dialect. Just sprinkling a few words here and there is better than all the time, like the line about the horse. lol. Or the Boston accent line about "Pahking the cah in Havahd Yahd", if I even got that right. The thick Boston accent drives me nuts, and the fact that those who have it are so proud of it. But, that's neither here nor there.

There is, however, a whole series of young adult/children's fantasy novels that does dialect perfectly ALL the time. It sounds crazy, but check it out. It's Redwall by Brian Jacques. (And no, it's not m/m)

All of his characters are animals, and each type has a different dialect. The Hares are very British, for example: "I say, you'd best get that rascal straight to the jolly old Abbot. Let him make his statement before he pegs out, don'cha know." And the sparrows talk with missing words: Mouse worm, you my prisoner! This court of Sparra! Me King Bull Sparra!" I've never found it annoying in his books, but rather fun. I love trying to talk like a mole sometimes: "Gurr, moi dearie, dearie me. She'm loiken an owlyburd allaways up thurr. Nay, oi'm afeared to look."

But, there are other books where it doesn't work out. You need to be a master storyteller, like Jacques, to get it right, I think.

[[deleted user]]

Funny you should talk about dialect, phonetics, accents, etc.; I have read several books that take place in England, and I cannot for the life of me get used to seeing/hearing "arse" instead of "ass". I have to read the word "arse" as "ass" whenever I come across it in a book. I don't get as upset seeing it in a book that is obviously taking place, let's say in London, where I expect to see/hear it, but when I'm reading sci/fi, fantasy or maybe the setting is right here in the U.S. and I STILL see/hear it I'm aggravated to a point.

I just read a book, and I can't remember the exact title, but the two protag's were U.S. southern and British Liverpool. I literally couldn't finish it. They wrote the accents/dialects into the dialogue and I couldn't get into these characters for the fact that I was constantly trying to translate what I had just read.

I prefer to read a decscriptive sentence as to the accent (ie, with his other-worldly accent, Jake eased Michael's tenions away), rather than spelling it out for me to decipher (afta - for after, or darlin', gonna, etc.)

Now, with that said, I can tell you there is nothing sexier than a guy with a beautiful british accent! But, seriously, when the book is full of the different regional dialects and their slang, it gets laborious.

Leah