Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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Writing Questions for Josh
message 151:
by
Murphy
(new)
Sep 17, 2010 09:51AM
I think Josh is right about this being an impasse. My mother used to say "their mind is hermetically sealed". I am a lesbian but I don't read much lesbian stuff or watch it quite frankly. I read het romance and M/M because there are out of my experience and I can really enjoy them. Alot of the lesbian fiction that is written today is interesting but very alien to me. When I first started watching and reading it, I was amazed and horrified. My friends all told me to give it a rest, fiction is fiction. It took me a long time, but now, I realize for me, what seems unreal to me I don't read. That is the option for all of us. Don't read it, don't pay for it. Your critic's feelings were his. They are his experience. Let them be his! Don't let your happiness and writing experience be damaged because his experience is negative. As a lesbian, I am truly glad that we are out there in the mainstream. That everything gay and lesbian is out there. It makes us seem more mainstream. Good luck with your writing.
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I'm a part of crit group that works with fantasy/sci fi type of books since that's what I write. And of that very large group there is less than two or three who write or are even willing to crit m/m stuff. Are there are specific to m/m crit groups that anyone can recommend? A fellow writer and I talked about starting a group because it's hard to find. But I'd rather focus on writing than website design.
Lissa, there's a M/M Romance group here in Goodreads and they have a discussion thread for writers where they can request readers. Not sure if that will help you, but it did the trick for me.
Murphy wrote: As a lesbian, I am truly glad that we are out there in the mainstream. That everything gay and lesbian is out there. It makes us seem more mainstream Good luck with your writing. Thank you for your response Murphy and your well wishes.
I think books, even fictional books can have a huge impact on a person's life. An author has the ability to tell a story that can influence others with a positive message or a harmful one.
I hope to be one of those authors that someday has a positive affect on someone regardless of the genre I choose to write in.
Sherri, Wave over at reviewsbyjessewave.com ( a site that reviews m/m books) did a post on the subject last week and a month ago. See here: http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/?p=...As you will see most of the readers don't give a d*mn who writes a book as long as the quality is good.
Ingrid wrote: "Sherri, Wave over at reviewsbyjessewave.com ( a site that reviews m/m books) did a post on the subject last week and a month ago. See here: http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/?p=...As you will s..."
Wow Ingrid thank you so much for the link. What a great site you have :) I will certainly be returning to the site over and over. I hope you don't mind but I have pasted here something I read on your site that truly blew me away.
Victor Banis wrote his take on the topic here, which gives another side of the Lambda issue and I won’t attempt to excerpt anything from his eloquent post. His historical perspective is unequaled in the world of gay literature and it would be worth your while to read the entire post.
I did some research recently and unearthed some startling statistics. It appears that both male and female authors who currently write erotic stories are gender bending. According to a reliable source (on television news stories there is always “a reliable source”) :) a number of men write M/M under female pseuds because they want to appeal to female readers. Some publishers have to do a juggling act whenever they send out royalty cheques because up to 50% of their authors are the ‘wrong’ gender. Here’s a little tidbit for you: If you’re female and you sometimes flirt online with “male” authors, they could be women!!! :) On the other side of this coin, some male readers “slam-blog” authors whom they think are “females getting the gay lifestyle wrong,” when in actuality the authors are gay men who write under female pen names. Something to think about the next time you believe you have this gender thing all figured out.
I am a huge fan of Mr. Banis and love it when he makes you go hmmmmmmm? Does this mean I might be in love with Josh Lanyon the man and my fantasy is all wrong? *giggle*
Lol Sherri, it is not "my" site. Just a site that I visit daily to keep me up to date on things m/m. Victor does say the nicest things, next to writing tasty books.
Wave did an interview with Harper Fox last Tuesday. She is a protage of Josh :)
Josh wrote: "What you have there, Sherri, is philosophical impasse, and the best thing is to accept it and move on. You've always had -- and always will -- those who feel that unless you've lived/experience..."
This discussion and the points both you and Sherri make are very valid.
I've followed this argument in a few different places lately. In the "Out" magazine and the Lambda article. Most of the vitriol is in the comments that follow.
What these guys miss is that in many instances it's not just about fetishizing the sex of gay men.
When I started (trying) to write m/m, one of the main things that attracted me was the ability for my two protagonists to go places and do things that a normal m/f pairing couldn't do. Try putting a female into the role of one of the characters of the good m/m romances out there. The plot situations/twists just wouldn't arise. The women could not be in the half the locations or jobs (and I don't just mean the gay bars). They couldn't be wandering around the streets at night by themselves.
They couldn't approach strangers and talk to them. Well, they could, but the whole underlying dynamic would be different.
It's this freedom for the characters to not be trapped in the box that society places women in that, to me, underpins a lot of the reasons why women write m/m.
Am I (ab)using gay males by doing this? I sincerely don't mean to.
I'm drawn to characters and situations outside the norm and have recently included a Chinese man as a main character. It was incredibly difficult. I didn't want to add to a stereotype but to ignore the cultural burden they've grown up with would also not do the character justice. He'd just be another Anglo with a foreign sounding name.
On one hand, people complain that there are so few characters who are colored, disabled or foreign. But if you include them in your stories you're bound to get a reaction as Josh has mentioned above. To try and present them as "just the same as any other character" does them a disservice though. Their lives are not the same thanks to society's prejudices or constraints. I've tried to write as sensitively as I can but I've resigned myself to the fact that there will be flak.
A.B. wrote: I'm drawn to characters and situations outside the norm and have recently included a Chinese man as a main character. It was incredibly difficult. I didn't want to add to a stereotype but to ignore the cultural burden they've grown up with would also not do the character justice. He'd just be another Anglo with a foreign sounding name.I'm not published, but I write a lot, and can say something similar -- that is, I'm drawn to characters with cultural experiences outside my own (white anglo), especially minorities. I've yet to write an m/m where both protags are white/anglo.
My favorite culture is Latin American (in large part because I do have outsider experience with the culture), and I've thought a lot about what you said up there. I.e., that I don't want to describe the character as latino, then present him like any other white male. I recognize that there is value in showing that latino men can be no different from white men, but in writing, that isn't interesting to me, and I want to explore someone who is culturally latino, not just genetically. And in some ways, I'd argue that making latinos (or other minorities) no different than whites implies that white/anglo culture is the superior one -- the one that all should aspire to. And I simply don't feel that way.
Back to the discussion about women writing m/m (which, again, I am) -- I think the reason I liked Josh's post so much is because it recognizes that there *are* moral ambiguities in females writing m/m, and it doesn't discount the frustration within the gay community.
Although I finally come down on the side of others here -- that is, it is okay for women to write m/m, that doesn't mean that the arguments on the other side don't get a lot of respect from me. I will not judge the frustration of gay men who dislike what I do or get upset at being fetishized. In the end, I disagree that I should stop, but I understand where the anger comes from. And since I am not gay, I feel that I am not in a position to invalidate their reactions.
I'm just sorry that the horrid state of society today makes such hurt possible. On all sides.
Ocotillo wrote: "A.B. wrote: I'm drawn to characters and situations outside the norm and have recently included a Chinese man as a main character. It was incredibly difficult. I didn't want to add to a stereotype b..."I agree with your points Ocotillo.
On re-reading my post, I realized in a way I am "using" men but more out of envy for their freedom rather than for sexual excitement.
Perhaps I am missing some of the differences also between straight men and gay men. Perhaps that's the problem. What are the differences other than the preferred sex of their partner?
In an effort to be as sensitive as possible, I'm reading gay literature when I can. The stories can't be consumed one after the other as they are so thought provoking. When I read books and anthologies like "The Beauty of Men" by Andrew Holleran, "Love Sucks" by Ken Shakin, "Out of the Box" by Don Schecter and the Penguin Book of Gay Short Stories
it gives me a better understanding of what it must have meant to be gay in those times.
But times do change and thankfully in most countries they do have the chance to find happiness whereas once, if these gay lit books are correct, it would have been very unlikely.
Even now, so many times in mainstream television and film where gay couples are featured, the union is ultimately tragic. Perhaps by writing a happy ending we may be unrealistic at the moment, but maybe that can change. It should change.
Another question for Josh. Did you start with the novella story type of stuff or with full books? Do you think one is easier to get published in this genre than others?
Mod
You have to remember, too, when reading some of these virulent comments on blogs, etc. that the most extreme viewpoints are generally the viewpoint of the minority. And this is true of just about every topic you can think of.
Mod
Lissa, the novella is the backbone of the m/m genre. It accounts for the vast majority of fiction published. It's also the ideal format for new and beginning writers because it's streamlined. The plots are simpler, character development is reduced to essentials, most subplots and extraneous characters are eliminated. It's a great format in which to hone your craft and it's hugely commercial.
I started with novels, although the very first version of Fatal Shadows was just around 30K, I think. (It's more around 40Kish now.) I think ultimately readers become more invested in novels simply because they're more complex and there's greater character development. But novellas are a great place to start.
Josh wrote: "Lissa, the novella is the backbone of the m/m genre. It accounts for..."Well, I'm doomed then. Of my 3 coming out, only one's a novella. And my current WIP? Novel. I meant for it to be a novella, but the plot and characters just sort of...grew.
I have zero self-control. None. I need some kind of buzzer that'd deliver a mild electric shock every time I say, "But wouldn't it be crazy awesome if..."
;-)
Mod
Kari wrote: "Josh wrote: "Lissa, the novella is the backbone of the m/m genre. It accounts for..."Well, I'm doomed then. Of my 3 coming out, only one's a novella. And my current WIP? Novel. I meant for it to ..."
Good to know I'm not the only one with a problem keeping it short...
Sorry to be a pain. I did read your M/M how to, Josh. The next big pressing question is yes a lot of publishers want explict content. I sort of glazed over a lot of that when writing my book. There are two scenes that can be added to the already working story. But does anyone have any tips on how to take a scene that was a sort of fade to black and make it more erotic without losing focus on the actual story?
Mod
Expanding the scene shouldn't mean losing focus on the story unless the scene didn't organically arise to begin with. The scenes of intimacy are the result of the characters previous actions and reactions -- their history with each other -- so they are as much of the story as anything else that happens.
You can help keep those scenes centered through the dialog and through the characters' thoughts. Does one character still distrust the other? What's going on inside them?
People say things besides Oooooh oooh, feels so gooooood during sex. Make sure your characters are communicating in all possible ways.
Does that help?
Josh wrote: "But does anyone have any tips on how to take a scene that was a sort of fade to black and make it more erotic without losing focus on the actual story?Expanding the scene shouldn't mean losing ..."
I will try it tonight. I have one character who doesn't talk much at all, and when he does he's usually snappy and angry, the other is young and always upbeat. The PoV is the young upbeat one, but the encounters are usually initiated by the quiet one.
Hopefully my talkative one doesn't go on too much. Maybe more internal dialogue for him?
Mod
Maybe. Since the other character doesn't talk much, I would have the POV character give us insight into what the other is thinking and feeling through his observations and interpretation of what he's seeing (even if he's interpreting incorrectly). You can still create a dialog even if a lot of it is silent.
Hi Josh, I have a question. Where do you get your information about gunshot wounds?
Mod
Josh wrote: "I have a bunch of medical textbooks from different time periods (which is good for historical novels), plus Sarah Black and Laura Baumbach were both nurses, so I used to touch base with them. Also ..."I lost my medical textbooks in the Great Ice Storm. I'll have to replace those. I do have an old Illustrated Medicology book from 1914 but that doesn't help me for a present day gsw to the leg.
Mod
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fanfic_...
Josh wrote: "There's also a medical knowledge list for fan fiction writers. They have a couple of nurses on there and people are always asking wild, complicated medical questions about everything under the sun...."Thank you! I will give them a try.
Josh wrote: "There's also a medical knowledge list for fan fiction writers. "Do you happen to know of a group for police procedure questions?
Mod
Do you happen to know of a group for police procedure questions?"
There's a live journal community. I can't remember what they're called. I'll try and take a look.
Mod
(Safe to say, never where you think you should be!)
http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/?p=...
Mod
For ebooks, I think three years is reasonable -- and maximum. I went against that with Carina Press -- their contract is the template Harlequin contract and they hold rights for seven years -- but they don't have a first look clause, so I figured it balanced out. If I'm not happy with them, I can take the next book somewhere else. It's still too soon to know how happy I am with them (I haven't seen a royalty statement) but I don't have any complaints so far.
In print books, if the publisher is doing an actual print run, then seven years is industry standard. If the publisher is doing POD, then I can see no valid reason for tying the book up for seven years.
Most of these indie presses do minimal advertising per title -- and the royalties are already skewed in the publishers favor -- as in, publisher makes $8.00 a book and you make .40 - $1.00 (depending on the number of authors involved) -- so their investment should have more than earned out within two or three years.
If I was going to hold the line anywhere, it would be on those two points. That said, starting out you don't have a lot of negotiating power and I've signed bad contracts -- knowing they were bad contracts -- and they've still paid off in the long run although not in financial reward (that's where taking a long view of your writing career comes in handy).
Mod
And JCP Books is probably the tiniest of the epubs I've worked with and it's hands down one of -- if not the-- best from an author's standpoint.
Josh wrote: "The number one thing would be tying up current and future works in a series -- so that includes the first look clause and how long my stories are held under contract."Are you talking about first look at sequels to the book under contract or first look at your next in that specific sub-genre?
Honestly, I signed away first-look at sequels for all 3 of mine and didn't blink an eye at it. Of course, now that 2 of the 3 are out, readers are already asking for those sequels, but I'm pleased with my numbers for the 1st, though I haven't gotten a royalty statement for the 2nd yet...Sorry, I'm blathering. I digress.
My question is...If you meant to be wary of first-look at sequels to the specific book under contract...Wouldn't it be worse to have series books with different publishers? Unless a writer's got a fan base that will follow them any- and everywhere (which I definitely don't yet have), I just don't see readers be-bopping around the net picking up Spoils of War here and As-Yet-Untitle-Sequel there. (Not that I'm unhappy with my publisher for that one, not at all. Just an example.)
If either publisher had asked for my next sub-genre book, yeah, I would've paused, but I seriously didn't think first-look at sequels was anything to get unhinged about.
Josh wrote: "And JCP Books is probably the tiniest of the epubs I've worked with and it's hands down one of -- if not the-- best from an author's standpoint"JCP Books is my favorite to buy from. The ebooks are the best I've seen in regards to formatting and editing. I can take one of their ebooks put it on my Sony and not have to worry about odd spacing, author/title names working their way into the text and I don't have missing punctuation (some ebooks take it all away when put on a reader) or ' being replaced with ? (Blood Heat).
Mod
Let's say for example you're doing a novel a year in a series and each novel is tied up for seven years and it's a seven book series. By the time you've got the rights back on the first book, you'll be starting the seven years on the last. Seven times seven...well, you do the math. If you're happy with the publisher, no problem. If you're not happy...it's a problem. A big problem. It means you won't write seven books in the series. You'll stop at one or two in order to wait out the copyright and get your rights back.
With both ebooks and print, I don't think the jumping around from publisher to publisher matters so much as a lot of readers buy through third party sellers anyway -- Kindle or Amazon print, for example. Our websites largely determine where readers purchase.
If either publisher had asked for my next sub-genre book, yeah, I would've paused, but I seriously didn't think first-look at sequels was anything to get unhinged about.
It's common in mainstream to request a look at the next cozy or romance or whatever the genre, but I don't think I've seen it here in m/m.
Josh wrote: "It's something to get unhinged over if you love the series and hate the publisher. Let's say for example you're doing a novel a year in a series and each novel is tied up for seven years and it..."
Well, no point in steering now, I guess. The first 2 that are out now aren't really series books, but one was written with a sequel planned and with the other, I left the door open if reader response was good. But that's it, just 2 books tied together for both of those titles.
The vamp bk coming out at Loose Id in January is a series, though, with 5 other books plotted out (depending on reader resonse, of course). But I can't imagine being at all displeased with Loose Id. Ever. I heart Loose Id. LOL.
H*ll, as a new author, it's not like I have much if any wiggle room, anyway.
Mod
Yeah, there is something funky in the Loose Id formatting. The single quotes turn into double quotes, etc. I noticed that the other day.
Mod
Loose Id isn't tying you up for seven years anyway, so that's not a problem. And they do have a very strong m/m readership, so they're a good choice for you.
And, as you say, when you're starting out sometimes a bad publishing deal -- so long as you understand exactly what you're agreeing to -- can be better than no publishing deal.
Josh wrote: "I know. She does a terrific job. She's doing everything right -- and it shows.Yeah, there is something funky in the Loose Id formatting. The single quotes turn into double quotes, etc. I notic..."
It does show and I thank her every time she releases something.
Blood Heat drove me nuts, ? all over the place.
Mod
Just so long as readers understand the writer has nothing to do with the formatting, good, bad or indifferent. I hear them say things like "I'll never read another book by that author!"
Like somehow it's the author's fault that a book doesn't make it to Kindle immediately or the formatting is weirdness. Yeesh.
Just so long as readers understand the writer has nothing to do with the formatting, good, bad or indifferent."Josh, you're so right, as an author you have zero control over the formatting. When I first saw a story of mine formatted badly, because I'm a graphic designer, I took it incredibly personally. Formatting/typesetting was the primary reason I opted to strike out on my own, and JCP Books didn't do particularly well for a couple of years. Also there was a huge learning curve. I remember initially I thought all I had to do was make a great-looking PDF and I'd be set. Then I started getting emails begging me to go back to writing for publishers who could put out more ebook formats, so my readers could read flowable-text ebooks on their devices. (This was 2008, so I was less device-savvy than I am now.)
I'm stubborn, so instead I learned how to hand-code ebook files.
The weird "?" characters come from a book being labeled with a wrong "character set" somewhere in the code. Makes me want to go write down all my settings and bury them in the back yard in case of a future hard drive failure.
Jordan wrote: "I'm stubborn, so instead I learned how to hand-code ebook files."And I thank you for it. The books you publish are a pleasure to read in ebook format and in print. I wish more publishers were as stubborn as you ;o)
Andy wrote: "Jordan wrote: "I'm stubborn, so instead I learned how to hand-code ebook files."And I thank you for it. The books you publish are a pleasure to read in ebook format and in print. I wish more publ..."
Agreed.
Josh since you've been writing a while I'm sure there have been a lot of challenges, probably not as many now as earlier in your career. But are there any publishers that you've found really challenging to get into?
Mod
Btw thanks. Sorry it has been a crazy month. I don't know how you juggle everything over the holidays.
Josh:
This is more of a question related to writing; hope you don't mind :)
How do go about the process of selecting a cover for your books? I personally believe cover art is very important. No, I'm not talking about the Fabio covers of the late 80's and early 90's (my sister had those books), but rather a cover that gives a "feel" for the book.
I have been somewhat disappointed with the cover art for ebooks. Some of them are just plain awful - cartoonish even. Some of the better ones, in my opinion anyway, have been: Warrior's Cross by Madeleine Urban, Witness by L.A. Gilbert, Resistance by L.M. Turner, to name a few. Also, your cover for Fair Game and most especially Icecape was fantastic. I normally do not like seeing the face of a character on the cover, because then I think they HAVE TO look like that. I can no longer be free to visualize the character based soley on description, but Fair Game's cover really worked.
I have to admit
is by far my favorite. It shows me just protag and I can tell from the cover he wears dark suits, is big-and-tall, uses a silencer, and the medallion is of importance. It's just perfect.
Thank you in advance for the soap box!
This is more of a question related to writing; hope you don't mind :)
How do go about the process of selecting a cover for your books? I personally believe cover art is very important. No, I'm not talking about the Fabio covers of the late 80's and early 90's (my sister had those books), but rather a cover that gives a "feel" for the book.
I have been somewhat disappointed with the cover art for ebooks. Some of them are just plain awful - cartoonish even. Some of the better ones, in my opinion anyway, have been: Warrior's Cross by Madeleine Urban, Witness by L.A. Gilbert, Resistance by L.M. Turner, to name a few. Also, your cover for Fair Game and most especially Icecape was fantastic. I normally do not like seeing the face of a character on the cover, because then I think they HAVE TO look like that. I can no longer be free to visualize the character based soley on description, but Fair Game's cover really worked.
I have to admit
is by far my favorite. It shows me just protag and I can tell from the cover he wears dark suits, is big-and-tall, uses a silencer, and the medallion is of importance. It's just perfect.Thank you in advance for the soap box!
Mod
Not as well as at other times, that's for sure!
Mod
This is more of a question related to writing; hope you don't mind :)
How do go about the process of selecting a cover for your books? I personally believe cover art is very important...."
Leah, I do completely agree with you. Unfortunately authors have (for the most part) as little choice about their ebook covers as mainstream authors.
Some of the choices are limited by budget, of course. And some are limited by that beauty-in-the-eye-of-the-beholder thing (some people being flat out BLIND)
Mostly authors input is limited to giving the artist a general idea of themes, colors, motifs...and then if something is wrong you can usually get them to correct. Beyond that...you can only hope for the best.
Overall, I feel pretty luck with my ebook covers. Some have been better than others, admittedly. I think the covers are in general getting better as ebooks become more and more popular.
It sounds unfair, but the terrible covers were one reason why it took so long for people like me to even seriously consider publishing electronically. Some of those first ebook covers were beyond bad.
some still are awful IMO... Um
Bubbles (Dane) wrote: "some still are awful IMO... Um "LMAO!
Mod
"LMAO!"
Speechless. Truly.
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Q&A with Josh Lanyon
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