Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion
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Lilly's colorful language menu & mixed corpse challenge
As you can see, I still need to make a few choices on my reading list. Does anyone maybe know a Dutch or an Italian work (but not Umberto Eco)? I don't really know about their classics. Thanks so much!
Nice to see your focus on non-Anglo works, Lilly. In terms of Italian, I'll be reading The Decameron by Boccaccio and A Woman by Aleramo for my own 2021 challenges, both of which are certainly old enough to qualify as classics. I also have a shelf devoted to Italian works, a number of which are on the older side, which you can check out for more ideas: https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...With regards to Dutch, The Ten Thousand Things by Dermoût comes immediately to mind. I also recently read and enjoyed Amsterdam Stories by Nescio, which were mostly composed/published in the early 20th century.
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Lilly wrote: "This is an Old and New TBR challenge ...
At the moment I am very tempted to add the following:
Maurice
The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun
but "Maurice" is New School and this work of Tolkien's is not even a classic, as it was published only recently ... ..."
Tolkien's "Lay" doesn't have "classic" status (so far), but it is fairly old, in the context of his other creative works, and, perhaps more significant for you, was published well before the recent critical-edition-with-commentary. The date may or may not be important to your decision.
According to that 2016 edition, it was originally drafted around 1930, well before "The Hobbit," let alone "Lord of the Rings," but contemporary with some of the poetic material that became part of the background of the prose Silmarillion.
It was slightly revised by 1943, when it was seen by his friend Professor Gwyn Jones, who published it in "The Welsh Review" in 1945. (The Breton subject-matter made it more suitable there than the Old English-based material which Jones also read at the time.)
This magazine did not have much of a circulation, although I found a set at UCLA, and made a couple of photocopies of the "Lay" to show other Tolkien fans.
This is distinctly minor Tolkien, but is particularly interesting in regards to one of Chaucer's works "The Franklin's Tale," in "The Canterbury Tales," which also presents itself as a "Breton lai." The genre has other representatives in Middle English, but they seem dependent, not on actual Breton compositions, but the Old French examples by Marie de France, the genuinely Celtic nature of which which has been debated. (See, briefly, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_lai )
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Aubrey wrote: "Nice to see your focus on non-Anglo works, Lilly. In terms of Italian, I'll be reading The Decameron by Boccaccio and A Woman by Aleramo for my own 2021 challenges, both..."Thank you for reminding me of the Decameron, Aubrey, I did not think of that. Although I dare say it would be the obvious choice for someone who knows as little of Italian classics as I do. The original text would also fall in the category of Historic Languages, but I know I would not be able to read that kind of Italian.
I must say that I'm very impressed by the number of Italian books you have read! I've browsed through a few descriptions, but it will take me some time to figure out what I want to read.
"Una donna" also sounds very interesting and would fit in with my feminist theme for the French novels (although I don't know yet if I'll pick another female writer for the third book).
"De tienduizend dingen" sounds quite fascinating! So far I have not tried to read anything as complex as that in Dutch, but I think I should be up to it.
Thank you for all those recommendations!
Katy wrote: "What a good idea. I haven't read a book in my second language for several years. I speak no where near as many languages as you, though!"Thank you, Katy! Now I am curious which is your other language?
My ability to speak those languages varies quite widely. My Swedish, for example, is quite poor. Which is also the reason why I aim for children's classics, they are easier to read. I've read both books by Astrid Lindgren many times as a kid and feel I practically know their stories by heart - which means this is the easiest level of reading in Swedish that's possible. Then again, I am positive that my language skills will improve throughout 2021 and reading is one of those things that will help me do so ...
I am doing the same with Spanish, Lilly. I will be reading La vida de Lazarillo de Tormes by Anonymous writer and El Gaucho Martín Fierro by José Hernández. I may also read a couple of books for school-age children written in Spanish that are histories, not literature or literary history.
I look forward to seeing what you say about Troilus and Cressida/The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer. I read Shakespeaee's version early this year. 8t was an emotional and intellectual challenge. I wonder how Chaucer tells the story.
Ian wrote: "Tolkien's "Lay" doesn't have "classic" status (so far), but it is fairly old, in the context of his other creative works, and, perhaps more significant for you, was published well before the recent critical-edition-with-commentary. The date may or may not be important to your decision."Thank you, Ian, for reminding me that the "Lay" was actually published before. I read that, going through the introduction when I bought the book, but then forgot.
I did not know that "The Franklin's Tale" is in the tradition of the lais, but then it is one of the few tales I've never dealt with.
Ian wrote: "This magazine did not have much of a circulation, although I found a set at UCLA, and made a couple of photocopies of the "Lay" to show other Tolkien fans."
Wow, you must be quite a fan! I have always considered myself one of those notorious long time fans, but I am clearly out of my league here ...
As to adding the "Lay" to my challenge, I am rather torn: It has been on my reading stack for quite a while, so it would be good to make some time and finally read it. Then again, I really want to go back and read more Old School Classics, so I should add some of those to my list ...
Thank you for all your thoughts on Tolkien and the lais, it was quite inspirational and I always like meeting another Tolkien enthusiast.
Bob wrote: "You are more advanced than I, if it's not English, I can't read it. Enjoy your challenge!"Thank you, Bob, you are most kind!
Cynda wrote: "I am doing the same with Spanish, Lilly. I will be reading La vida de Lazarillo de Tormes by Anonymous writer and El Gaucho Martín Fierro by [author:Jo..."Wow, that is so cool! I wish I could speak/read Spanish. Somehow I never managed to take Spanish classes - which is actually a little embarrassing, as my father moved to Spain a few years ago.
Lilly wrote: "As you can see, I still need to make a few choices on my reading list. Does anyone maybe know a Dutch or an Italian work (but not Umberto Eco)? I don't really know about their classics. Thanks so m..."I love that you're proficient in so many languages. I have a very rusty reading knowledge of German. It's been years since I've tried to read anything in the language. I had considered trying to read one of the Harry Potter books in German, but I'm thinking I might need to start at picture book level. :)
I'm not sure what date range you are looking for, but for Italian... there is Survival in Auschwitz or The Prince.
Cynda wrote: "I look forward to seeing what you say about Troilus and Cressida/The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer. I read Shakespeaee's version early this year. 8t was an emoti..."I totally loved reading the Canterbury tales ten years ago, well, still do. I just love the Middle English rhythm and the sassy humor of many stories. Also, Chaucer is so very clever in his use of different dialects and social registers. Take the Prioress for example, who must be expected to be a noble woman of French descent and speaks so very polishedly, getting all the French words wrong, just as all the nobles did at the time (because they had lost their connection to France). And then there is the Wife of Bath, the only other woman portraied in more detail, also independant, but a little coarser. ... Well, I won't bore you with that. I just think Chaucer's variation in the style of speach throughout all his characters was quite a stroke of genius. - It also makes for more diverse reading within the Tales.
But I decided not to go for the Canterbury Tales this time, as it is the one work we always fall back to when doing Chaucer in class/rereading him.
I read parts of Troilus and Criseyde, but that was also ten years ago, and I never reread any of the scenes or even read the whole work in one go (The last time I reread some of the Canterbury Tales was only three years ago). So my memory on the matter is rather dim. I remember the style to be much more solemn - fitting for the topic.
I think I will quite enjoy this read.
Lilly wrote: "Thank you for all those recommendations!"Cheers. I'm irreparably monolingual myself, but reading things in translation has become a passion of mine over the years. I'm glad to spread my knowledge to people who can actually enjoy the texts in the original.
In high school my class members and I were assigned various stories of the Canterbury Tales. It has lived in my imagination since. I am hoping that in 2022 that I will read The Tales for myself. Since I may never read again, I will (likely) go with the more complete (though of course none are complete) edition by Oxford World's Classics.
.That sassy fun you mention seems to be part of the period following the Great Plague. People had had a harrowing time, so they set out to enjoy life. With in the inclusion of a telling of Troilus and Criseyde, I am prone to think that some of the stories within The Tales were serious. Yet I remember the teacher helping us to find the humor in a number/many of the stories. That's my memory. I am looking forward to finding out what I think now.
If you decide to read The Decameron--of which you can find buddy read notes here--you toomight find the humor sassy. Young adults frolicking.
Angie wrote: "I love that you're proficient in so many languages."Thank you, Angie! My skills are pretty low for some of these languages - but then, reading is luckily easier than speaking :D
Angie wrote: "I had considered trying to read one of the Harry Potter books in German, but I'm thinking I might need to start at picture book level."
I think HP is a good option, well known and not to difficult to read. I often do that when starting a new language. I think the German HP translation is actually o.k. - I read the first four books in translation two decades ago. (A lot of German translations are messed up - never read a Wheel of Time translation from back in the 90ies, I can only describe the experience as painful. But the early HP books were actually o.k.)
If you want to read something at an easier level and do not mind not knowing the story, you could go for Jim Knopf und Lukas der Lokomotivführer by Michael Ende. He's a classic, but meant for kindergarden age. I also loved Gritta vom Rattenschloss - funny, resourceful, and a classic tale.
Angie wrote: "I'm not sure what date range you are looking for, but for Italian... there is Survival in Auschwitz or The Prince."
Thank you for your recommendations!
Aubrey also had The Prince in his list, but I'm not so sure that I can read such a complex text in Italian. Novels are usually easier to follow than theoretical texts ...
Aubrey wrote: "I'm glad to spread my knowledge to people who can actually enjoy the texts in the original."I'll do my best. :) Thank you, Aubrey.
Cynda wrote: "Since I may never read again, I will (likely) go with the more complete (though of course none are complete) edition by Oxford World's Classics."I must admit I don't know about the translations, I just stick to The Riverside Chaucer that contains all of Chaucer's works. But if you're striving for completeness, then your Oxford edition seems to be the logical choice in translations.
I cannot say if The Parson's Tale is worth reading, but The Tale of Melibee definitely is not. I have never completed that tale and I know noone who has. It is in fact so odious that it is famous for it - well, it was written solely for that reason ...
Cynda wrote: "I am prone to think that some of the stories within The Tales were serious."
Yes, not all the tales are funny. Some have moral, others are complicated, some even boring ... I think the funny ones are just the ones best known.
Cynda wrote: "With in the inclusion of a telling of Troilus and Criseyde, I am prone to think that some of the stories within The Tales were serious."
Will you also read Troilus and Criseyde or just The Canterbury Tales?
Cynda wrote: "If you decide to read The Decameron--of which you can find buddy read notes here--you toomight find the humor sassy. Young adults frolicking."
Thank you! I am honestly thinking about reading The Decameron. Some of the Canterbury Tales are actually based on Petrarca.
You are very brave, Lilly. Koning van Katoren was a prescribed work for me in high school. I remember enjoying the story.For Dutch, you may want to look at Paul Biegel. He wrote some children's stories about a pirate that I read translated into Afrikaans in my youth. Also maybe Hilda van Stockum?
Italian - what about Grazia Deledda?
Good luck, it's a really brave challenge!
In 2022 I plan read all the Canterbury Tales within the Oxford book. I will break it up into monthly sections until I am done. As I read, I will look forward to rereading parts I recognize and to reading Troilus and Crisedye, reflecting on one or two similarities or differences between the Chaucerian and Shakespearean versions.Right. Just like with the Decameron, some stories are moral tales while many have baudy elements within the moral tales. Some are more straight up moral.
I look forward to your comments here tnroughout the year. Happy Reading :-)
Carolien wrote: "You are very brave, Lilly. Koning van Katoren was a prescribed work for me in high school. I remember enjoying the story.For Dutch, you may want to look at Paul Biegel. He wrote s..."
Thank you, Carolien, for all those recommendations! I think van Stockum actually wrote in English, but there should be translations in Dutch. I'm definitely going to read Biegel - probably De tuinen van Dorr. I'm not sure if I can read more than three Dutch books in 2021, but if he's not going into my challenge, he'll definitely be up for the year after ...
I think Deledda would also go well with my feminist theme going on in the French section, extending it to Italian.
Carolien wrote: "He wrote some children's stories about a pirate that I read translated into Afrikaans in my youth."
Now I'm curious. Is Afrikaans your first language and English your second, or the other way round?
So you are going to read them both ... :) I'll be interested to read your thoughts then. Maybe I'll come back for the Canterbury Tales in 2022 as well. - The Riverside Chaucer is quite thick and my reading has holes and patches in every section of his work. So coming back for some other part of his work each year might be a good idea ...
Cynda wrote: "I look forward to your comments here tnroughout the year. Happy Reading :-)"
Thank you, Cynda, I'll update you through my reading. :)
Lilly wrote: "Carolien wrote: "You are very brave, Lilly. Koning van Katoren was a prescribed work for me in high school. I remember enjoying the story.For Dutch, you may want to look at [author:Paul Biegel|34..."
Afrikaans is my mother language, but I am married to an Englishman so we speak English at home these days. My family still speaks Afrikaans and there is quite a bit of Afrikaans at my work as well. My name is one of the Afrikaans derivatives of Caroline.
@Carolien: Wow, that is pretty cool. :)
I often hear Afrikaans mentioned in linguistic contexts, because it has so little morphology. - But I've never met anyone who actually speaks it. I think it's quite an overlooked language - the big universities like Munich and Zurich sometimes teach it, but none of the smaller universities hereabouts have it on their lists ...
Lilly, I’m impressed. You know a lot of languages and are willing to read in them. I read in English. I should read in Spanish- meaning I speak it but too lazy to read it even though I can. Probably if my life weren’t too hectic I would switch off. I understand Portuguese but would need a refresher course to be able to speak it. Hebrew I understand basics. All I would need is an online course and I’d be speaking. My son understands Hebrew and Yiddish so he’s better than me. Good luck with this challenge.
Lilly wrote: "@Carolien: Wow, that is pretty cool. :)
I often hear Afrikaans mentioned in linguistic contexts, because it has so little morphology. - But I've never met anyone who actually speaks it. I think it..."
It's officially only a century old as a language and based on Dutch/Malay with some German/French/English in the mix. The grammar is easy - only a future, present and past tense and no male/female propositions. If you are interested, Antjie Krog has written in Dutch and Afrikaans. Jaco Jacobs is a good children's author to try.
Lilly wrote: "Wow, you must be quite a fan! I have always considered myself one of those notorious long time fans, but I am clearly out of my league here ......"I may have had a bit of a head start: I'm part of the second wave of Tolkien fandom, the one that the followed the rival Ace* and Ballantine editions in the mid-1960s (as distinguished from those who encountered it in hardcover from the mid-1950s onward.)
I was alerted to the "Lay" by the first edition of (the late) Richard West's "Tolkien Criticism: A Checklist," and, fortunately enough, soon after had access to a University Research Library, where I could find the obscure early works. (I am listed in Second Edition of the "Checklist ..." for a bunch of articles and reviews for a fanzine I edited. I was an "active fan" for a number of years, although I pretty much dropped out a good many years ago.)
*For those unfamiliar with the story, Houghton-Mifflin had imported too many copies of the British edition, to supplement its own printing, thereby voiding the US copyright, according to an arcane, and now obsolete, nineteenth-century provision of American law. (Which, frankly, was intended to make it easier for American printers to pirate foreign works, but wound up injuring legitimate publishers as well as authors.)
Someone at Ace Books, then a independent paperback publisher with a large science fiction line, figured out that Houghton Mifflin wasn't selling the paperback rights because it didn't actually control them, and rushed the three volumes into print. However, Tolkien had revised somewhat expanded "The Lord of the Rings," particularly in a Foreword and the Appendices, enough so that Houghton Mifflin could claim copyright on the new edition. The paperback rights to this form were sold to Ballantine Books (also at the time independent, and with a large science fiction and fantasy line), as the "authorized" edition, with an appeal from the author on the back cover to buy it, and no other edition (i.e., Ace). Houghton Mifflin also reprinted it in hardcover.
Eventually, Ace gave in and withdrew its edition (unfortunately along with the very nice covers and frontispiece by, I think, Jack Gaughan). This set a publishing-practices precedent for the moral right of authors: although lately Disney has been refusing to pay royalties to Alan Dean Foster for his Star Wars novels, claiming that that wasn't included when they bought the rights, so such shenanigans are not a thing of the past.
Ace and Ballantine were also involved in the 1960s in a similar dispute over some of the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan and others), but that is another story for another occasion.
Your post has inspired me to commit to reading something in Portuguese this year. I was just mulling this, but now I'm in. I read works in Spanish almost on a monthly basis, but I've never read anything longer than a novella in Portguese. Machado de Assis is awesome, but his language is a little antiquated, which slows me up too much. I might tried Paulo Coelho even though he is not a classic. Something to start with. In terms of Italian, have you considered Sei personaggi in cerca d'autore. This is drama but Luigi Pirandello is a giant and lots of fun. I've only read him in translation.
I envy your many linguistic options. Reading in another language makes the story more transporting for me. Reading something medieval in its medieval form must feel like time travel.
Brina wrote: "Lilly, I’m impressed. You know a lot of languages and are willing to read in them. I read in English. I should read in Spanish- meaning I speak it but too lazy to read it even though I can. Probabl..."Thank you, Brina :)
Obviously, you speak quite a number of languages yourself. I'm impressed with anyone who can speak Hebrew. - I tried to learn Old Hebrew several years ago, but it is really hard. I'm definitely awed by anyone who can read Hebrew without punctuation, the way they do in Ivrith. O.O
As to being willing to read in other languages ... I've been quite slack on that during the last years, so I'm trying to improve myself for the next year ...
I don’t exactly speak Hebrew though. Old Hebrew- I read and pray in it. I use a book that has Hebrew on one side and English on the other so I can translate. My kids learn that in school. Modern Hebrew I know bits and pieces mainly from knowing Biblical Hebrew. For example, the word for horse is the same in both. Speaking modern Hebrew, I’d either have to do an online course or move to Israel and immerse myself. As for reading in other languages, I’m also slacking at the moment and would like to rectify that. I usually start with poetry just because there’s less words to translate eg Pablo Neruda in Spanish instead of English.
Carolien wrote: "If you are interested, Antjie Krog has written in Dutch and Afrikaans. Jaco Jacobs is a good children's author to try."Thank you, Carolien, for those extra recommendations. :)
I know I won't be able to try and learn Afrikaans at the moment, but hopefully I'll be able to come back to those authors the year after or sometime like that ...
You quite inspire me :)
Ian wrote: "I may have had a bit of a head start: I'm part of the second wave of Tolkien fandom, the one that the followed the rival Ace* and Ballantine editions in the mid-1960s (as distinguished from those who encountered it in hardcover from the mid-1950s onward.)"Wow, that is pretty cool - and you definitely had some headstart.
My own journey into Tolkien's world only began in the 90ies. I think I encountered The Hobbit first in late 1996 in a translated version my mother owned. I became an instant fan. - I remember little me dealing Gollum's riddles back to the other kids - riddles where quite the hype at the time - I guess I did not know any other riddles, so could offer them nothing else. Haha, not the nicest move ... I think that was winter 1997/8.
I also got my first Lord of the Rings paperback set in 1997 and The Silmarillion in 1998, both in translation. The Silmarillion was actually still the translation of the first edition and I snatched up the second translated edition of Tom Bombadil right when it came in print in 2001. - I guess everything is just so much slower in translation ...
And that was my journey for translated Tolkien. In 2001 I also finally felt confident enough to start reading the Lord of the Rings in English and after that I always went for English editions.
This old translated version of the Lord of the Rings was actually pretty good - a lot of translations you could buy in the 90ies were quite bad. But this is little wonder as Tolkien himself was involved with this translation. - Unfortunately, they retranslated the books several years ago, apparently with the aim of modernizing the language. A friend of mine bought it and what little she read to me was quite horrifying. - That new translation read nothing like Tolkien at all and a number of adresses and expressions used should be nowhere in the same room as with any work of Tolkien's. Why they thought to change the old author approved translation at all, I cannot understand.
Stories like that are actually the reason why I prefer to read in the original language if possible. There is often so much damage being done to great books due to unskilled and insensible translators. Those awful Wheel of Time translations from the 90ies are another hilarious example ...
As a teen I used to read at least one book by Tolkien every year. But nowadays I only read his books from time to time - I guess some other books just keep me busy ...
Hi Lilly! Such a nice idea to read more in other languages! I will think about that some time ( although I don't know as much languages as you ;-p )^^ Your book list is also pretty cool, quite a few books I read ;-) And as I happen to be Dutch I would like to give you a few suggestions^^ By Jan Terlouw a personal favourite is Gevangenis met een open deur, or you could go with the sequel of Koning van Katoren, Zoektocht in Katoren.For the third book I would suggest a book by Tonke Dragt, some personal faves are De Torens van Februari : een (vooralsnog) anoniem dagboek van leestekens en voetnoten voorzien door Tonke Dragt and Ogen van tijgers: een toekomstroman. Or maybe Schijnbewegingen or Wolfsroedel by Floortje Zwigtman if you want something more recent and still very good.^^
Good luck with your challenge and have a nice reading time!^^
John_Dishwasher wrote: "Your post has inspired me to commit to reading something in Portuguese this year. I was just mulling this, but now I'm in. I read works in Spanish almost on a monthly basis, but I've never read any..."Hi John, I'm happy to hear you're joining me to read more in other languages. :)
I admit Portuguese is quite out of my grasp - and with your monthly readings in Spanish your reading habits already seem to be more balanced in the language section than mine.
It is always good to start with something comfortable and I'm also reading rather slowly in half of the above languages. But even if you can only manage one book in a certain language within a year, when you're finished you still get that feeling you have achieved something.
I don't really like translations, I feel that they take away too much from the original. A really good translation can sometimes add something to the atmosphere of the story and give it an extra charm and fun - but I dare say the majority of translations are not on this level. So, from early on I've tried to read books in the original language if possible. - I also must own that over here books are often irrationally expensive. I noticed early in my teenage years that buying the original was often decidedly cheaper than buying the translation. - That also added to the attraction.
Thank you for the Italian recommendation. Sei Personaggi sounds quite interesting, the description really caught me.
I think translations of older texts are often especially difficult. Languages change a lot over time and the older the text, the more differ the original and the translated language in structure. Many clever stylistic devices used in older languages cannot be immitated in todays languages and many standard structuring elements of older languages end up sounding redundant and boring when translators try to immitate them. I believe this is the reason why many older texts read so boring, only using simple sentences with a lot of and-connections - well, their translations into modern languages do. - Others prefer to focus only on adaptations, transferring only the content into their own words. In my experience the translations often take the joy of the original text away and the adaptations lose the originality of the narration.
Obviously, the only option to gain on both sides is to read in the historic language. As to your perception of time travel ... well, personally I believe that we can only approach an understanding of another time periode (and culture) through its original voice, i.e. its texts ...
Brina wrote: "I don’t exactly speak Hebrew though. Old Hebrew- I read and pray in it. I use a book that has Hebrew on one side and English on the other so I can translate. My kids learn that in school. Modern He..."Well, if you can read along the Hebrew text in a bilingual edition that is still impressive. - It is certainly more than I would be able to. I was really struggling back then and gave it up many years ago; I do not think I would be able to read anything in Hebrew at all today. - I gave up my studies in theology, because they were not the right thing for me. I figured I was better off keeping to philology and history. Luckily theology was only my minor, so repeating all those credits for a new subject was not so bad in the end. I sometimes regret that I have forgotten so many of the things I learned for theology, but languages, especially, slip from the mind so quickly. And my attempt at Hebrew was bad at its best :D
I am a little devided on reading poetry early on when learning a new language. On the one hand, I agree with you, there just aren't so many words and the sentence structure is easier. On the other hand, if it is the complex type of poetry, that needs a lot of interpretation, I am worried I will miss out due to my struggle with the language.
Irphen wrote: "Hi Lilly! Such a nice idea to read more in other languages! I will think about that some time ( although I don't know as much languages as you ;-p )^^ Your book list is also pretty cool, quite a fe..."Thank you, Irphen, and thank you for your good advice. :)
I was thinking I might read Oorlogswinter by Jan Terlouw, as it is one of his better known. But I am not really decided yet.
I have also been thinking that I might read De tuinen van Dorr by Paul Biegel as a third book.
I have actually been considering De Torens van Februari : een (vooralsnog) anoniem dagboek van leestekens en voetnoten voorzien door Tonke Dragt, because I read that one in translation as a child. Tonke Dragt is really brilliant. I dare say her book has influenced me even up till today.
But I thought it might be better to read something else. There are so many great books in Dutch, I feel like I should try to read more books I do not know yet ...
I am not yet sure what to make of Floortje Zwigtman. She has obviously won some prizes, but Wolfsroedel sounds very brutal.
Lilly wrote: "This old translated version of the Lord of the Rings was actually pretty good - a lot of translations you could buy in the 90ies were quite bad. But this is little wonder as Tolkien himself was involved with this translation. - Unfortunately, they retranslated the books several years ago, apparently with the aim of modernizing the language. ..."Tolkien apparently really liked the Dutch translation (the notes he provided to guide it have been published, but are hard to find these days).
On the other hand, he had a great many objections to the German version.
The only one I now recall was to the decision to mess around with the names (Eorl, Eomer, Theoden, etc.) associated with the Riders of Rohan, which was totally unnecessary, and pretty reckless, given that they came from Tolkien's area of specialization.
Tolkien had carefully arranged that their remote ancestors had names "translated" into Gothic, but for more recent times he used Old English (Anglo-Saxon) names (and words) to represent their "modern" language. This was supposed to show that it was related to, but not identical with, the Common Speech, supposedly represented by Modern English. And to demonstrate that the ancestral hobbits had once shared the language -- hence some odd Germanic names among their ancestors, as well as some "dialect" words in the Shire that Theoden found familiar-sounding.
But not just any Old English -- where they differed, he used the spelling of the Mercian dialect, which he particularly liked, instead of the West Saxon, which is the "standard form" everyone who learns Old English is taught at the beginning.* (I had noticed that there was a difference, but Tom Shippey, another philologist, was, so far as I know, the first who explained to the rest of us what was going on in Tolkien's mind.)
The German translator recognized that the names were old Germanic, but took it upon himself to try to turn them into Old High German. And apparently didn't do a very good job of it, either.
If, for some reason, he had felt compelled to make the names and words less "insular," he might at least have had the sense to convert them to (continental) Old Saxon, the nearer relative of Old English -- as indicated by the once common description of the latter as Anglo-Saxon. (Which is now more often used by specialists to refer to the people who spoke it.)
*This use of West Saxon as "standard Old English" is mainly because the two biggest blocks of Old English literature are in Early West Saxon, from the time of Alfred the Great, and in Late West Saxon, used in the eleventh century by Aelfric the Grammarian. Aelfric wrote an Old English guide to learning Latin, which in the seventeenth century was, so to speak, read backwards in order to decipher Old English. Aelfric left a great volume of other works, all religious, including Bible translations, so the pioneers in the field had something to read once they figured it out.
Ironically, Mercian is a bit closer to the Middle English dialects which gave rise to a standard "Chancery English," used by official scribes in London in the late Middle Ages, and turned into a literary language in good part by Chaucer.
I've no doubt that translating a work will never get 100% of it across to those reading it in translation, but as I'd have to, thus far, be fluent in almost 120 languages to get absolutely everything out of everything I'm interested in reading, I take what I can whatever way I can.
Aubrey wrote: "I've no doubt that translating a work will never get 100% of it across to those reading it in translation, but as I'd have to, thus far, be fluent in almost 120 languages to get absolutely everythi..."Aubrey, you're absolutely right about that. I don't read as culturally diverse as you do, but there are more than enough languages I cannot read or the texts in question are too complex for my language level. Then, of course, translations are the obvious choice.
I just think wanting to read texts in the original is part of the reasons that push me to try and learn more languages. Or sometimes the lack of translations can be the reason. My motivation for currently learning Swedish was simply the fact that I'm headed for Elfdalian (or Älvdalska) and the grammars are written in Swedish. - No offense to the Swedish language, which in itself is quite interesting from a linguistic point.
Lilly wrote: "Irphen wrote: "Hi Lilly! Such a nice idea to read more in other languages! I will think about that some time ( although I don't know as much languages as you ;-p )^^ Your book list is also pretty c..."You're welcome!^^
Oorlogswinter is nice as well indeed, actually all his books I read are pretty good ;-) Gevangenis met Open Deur is just one of my personal faves because it has a rather original subject.
And yes Paul Biegel is a pretty good read as well, so if you don't know any of his works yet it seems like a good idea to read some^^
I love Tonke Dragt! And I recently re-read De Torens Van February and enjoyed it very much, but if you already know her it could be a good idea indeed to first discover other authors :-)
Floortje Zwigtman is one of my all time fave authors and as far as I remember Wolfsroedel wasn't too brutal but I'm not sure if I'm objectif cause I love gothic fiction, Poe, Lovecraft and that kind of stuff that scares the hell out of some people XD As for Schijnbewegingen it isn't brutal, it's a historical lgbt themed romance like story. And if you are into historical fiction I can recommend Thea Beckman as well.
Haha, I feel you are being drowned by the suggestions so I will leave it with this! ;-)
Ian wrote: "On the other hand, he had a great many objections to the German version.The only one I now recall was to the decision to mess around with the names (Eorl, Eomer, Theoden, etc.) associated with the Riders of Rohan, which was totally unnecessary, and pretty reckless, given that they came from Tolkien's area of specialization."
I fear you are confusing the German translation with the Swedish one, which was one of the first translations and disliked by Tolkien and with the Dutch translation, that had the problems of translated names you described. The German translation, on the other hand, belonged to the group of later translations that were attempted only after Tolkien published his notes. Apparently Carroux had a lively correspondence with Tolkien and he influenced this translation a lot. Names have not been altered, and the English place names are usually translated literally, e.g. Helm's Deep as Helms Klamm. As far as I know, only two obvious terms were changed: the elves have been translated as Elben, a fictitious term, instead of Elfen, to avoid confusion with the little winged creatures or such. - This change was actually advised by Tolkien. - Second, the name Shire was translated a bit freely into Auenland, due to the corresponding term being a bit problematic.
Apparently the only part that Tolkien disapproved of in Carroux's translation were the renditions of the poems and songs. - And those were then retranslated by someone else.
The infamous German retranslation I have mentioned, was first published in 2000. Krege changed the style of the book vastly, in my opinion not only making the language as simple as possible, but often even rendering it ordinär. The retranslation received a lot of criticism and some of the most offensive renditions have been mildened. Personally, I find the 2012 version of the retranslation still quite offensive in its free interpretation of Tolkien's oeuvre.
Ian wrote: "the notes he provided to guide it have been published, but are hard to find these days"
The notes written by Tolkien to aid translators in general (the Danish and German were the first who used them) are still available today. They are part of the Reader’s companion.
Ian wrote: "This use of West Saxon as "standard Old English" is mainly because the two biggest blocks of Old English literature are in Early West Saxon, ..."
I would say the reason for West Saxon being the best known dialect nowadays is, both, a matter of quantity, as it has the most texts preserved, and of quality: Mercian, for example, is only preserved in charters and glosses, whereas the other three major dialects also offer literary texts - in the case of Mercian the largest amount. Philological studies seem to be in the habit of approaching literary sources first. Of course, Alfred’s support for writing in Old English instead of Latin already made West Saxon the influential variety. So West Saxon offering the majority of literary texts and thus becoming the teaching approach today, basically is a circular effect of West Saxon already being the influential dialect on writing literature in Old English times.
Ian wrote: "Ironically, Mercian is a bit closer to the Middle English dialects which gave rise to a standard "Chancery English," used by official scribes in London in the late Middle Ages, and turned into a literary language in good part by Chaucer."
The reason that West Saxon was not the major influence on Modern English can probably be blamed on the Norman Conquest. It could already be considered a literary standard for Old English, but tradition broke off with the conquest . When Middle English rose again to be used in writing, the balance within the dialects had already shifted.
Chaucer actually drew on quite a variety of dialects and social differences in speech for his Canterbury Tales.
Irphen wrote: "Haha, I feel you are being drowned by the suggestions so I will leave it with this! ;-)"Thank you so much for your many recommendations, Irphen - this is great! I feel lucky that so many people on this thread knew some Dutch authors and extra lucky to run into someone Dutch who has basically read the list. :)
I really love reading in Dutch, I'm just slow. All those interesting novels are soo tempting me right now and I want to put more Dutch books on the list. - So even if I cannot use all those suggestions for the challenge, and probably can't read them all within the next year, I can still come back for those books at some later time.
I'm still thinking Wolfsroedel would upset me a lot - kind of reminds me of Clockwork Orange, just worse; and I hated that already ...
Schijnbewegingen would likely be the better choice for me.
UPDATE: SECOND CHALLENGE I have been thinking about doing a second challenge ever since Christmas. Unfortunately, I'm not sure about the challenge buffet rules. Can I use the same type of challenge twice? Well ... only one more day to go till the next year and the challenges are meant to be personal - so I'm just doing it.
Do you sometimes find those stored away and long unread copies in your reading stacks and on your shelves? Books put off, then forgotten and stored years ago? Well, I have quite a number of them - and many of those happen to be in the classic department. I think of them as the corpses of my reading stacks and tbr lists.
In my language challenge I wrote in the English section that I want to read more old school in the next year. I am combining this goal with an attempt to clear up some of those book corpses around my appartment.
I am not yet sure, which books to put on the list, but here are my personal rules for the new challenge:
My mixed corpse challenge
Only books from the three following categories are eligible for my challenge:
1. Books a have bought several years ago but have never read. OR Books I have read less than half and then put aside years ago.
2. Books a have been talking about rereading for several years.
3. Books I have been talking about reading for years, but somehow never even bought.
I do not want to explicitly exclude books from the challenge that have been on my tbr list for less than 5 years. However, I feel that the majority of this challenge should be books that have been sitting on the shelf (or more correctly stacking under my bed, writing desk, in nooks and corners, and anywhere else unnoticed) for the longest.
Here are some of my candidates:
Bought and unread:
1. Journey to the Centre of the Earth
I cannot quite remember when I bought this; I am guessing in 2003 at the latest, but more likely before that. I know I was very young and I liked the cover - but I cannot remember how much of the book I read.
2. King Solomon's Mines
I bought this a little later, but again only read the first few chapters.
3. Ivanhoe
Pretty certain I bought this one early in 2004, probably in that nice crowded, little Wordsworth bookshop in London.
4. The Count of Monte Cristo
I cannot count the number of times I have tried to read the Count. My last attempt was in 2017, when I barely even started, and before that with the group reads in 2015, but after several chapters I ran out of reading time. I cannot put any dates on my other attempts ... I think I also bought this copy in 2004.
5. Mary Barton
I bought her in 2012 while on holiday in Ireland, but then did not find the time with sight seeing and theater visits.
6. For Whom the Bell Tolls
Bought in 2014. I read some other works of Hemingway for a seminar, then wanted to read more of his books. But the next year was quite stressful.
Always talking about rereading:
1. The Shadow Rising
This is probably my favorite book, or at least one of my three favorite books in the Wheel of Time series. Ironically, I read it only once and that was in 2002/3. I have been talking a lot about rereading this book at least since 2016.
Wanted but never bought:
1. Brideshead Revisited
I can't remember the number of times I held this in my hands in the bookstore - but somehow, I never bought it. I've been talking about reading this book at least since 2014.
Not so long on the shelf:
Here are some books that have been on my tbr list for less than 5 years:
1.&2. The Woman in White and Frankenstein. I bought those two for group reads a few years ago, but in the end, sadly, did not find the time to read them.
3. A Passage to India was bought less than a year ago, but 2020 turned out to be quite stressfull.
Haha, I do like the effort you're putting towards clearing out your book 'corpses,' Lilly. For me, the equivalent is my 'lagging' shelf that contains the oldest 20% of my to be read list, which I'm always trying to incorporate into my reading diet in one way or another. Currently, the cut off for when I added the most recent of these laggards is in the middle of 2013, and around half my 2021 challenge reads are composed of such. Feels good to finally air these kinds of works out, doesn't it?
Yes it does, Aubrey! I have not tried to get rid of those very old tbr corpses for several years. I remember trying to take on some of those books en masse about 5 years ago, but in the end I became stressed by their sheer number. There have only been very feeble attempts since then. I am glad you also have those lagging books - well, it is not nice for you to have them, but it makes me feel better about mine.
How long has your oldest lagger been on the shelf?
My current oldest is Camus' 'The Plague,' which has been sitting pretty since August 7, 2010, which I'm fairly certain was either the day of or the same week as the day that I first made a Goodreads account. I finally bit the bullet and shoved it into my 2021 challenges, so at least one of my oldest ones is finally getting its chance in the spotlight.
I feel for you, Lilly. We all have those books. In fact, I was lamenting in another group that I wanted to join a buddy read, but don't own the book and it is out of print which means a major mission to find in South Africa, only to discover it on my shelf when tidying a week later! I am working my way through my ebooks to classify them by year so that I can use them for more challenges as they accumulate as well. Enjoy your new challenge!
Aubrey wrote: "My current oldest is Camus' 'The Plague,' which has been sitting pretty since August 7, 2010, which I'm fairly certain was either the day of or the same week as the day that I first made a Goodread..."Wow, you are so much more organized in dealing with those books than I am. O.O The fact that some of mine are approaching the 20 years mark is pretty alarming.
I am happy to see that you are also making a good go for them in 2021. :)
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
Books mentioned in this topic
Kinderen van Moeder Aarde (other topics)Mio, min Mio (other topics)
Harry Potter och de vises sten (other topics)
Mio, min Mio (other topics)
Mio, min Mio (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Astrid Lindgren (other topics)Friedrich Schiller (other topics)
Thea Beckman (other topics)
Paul Biegel (other topics)
Floortje Zwigtman (other topics)
More...
FINALIZED CHALLENGE 1:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
FINALIZED CHALLENGE 2:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Looking back at my younger self I cannot help but think that I used to read so much more in different languages. The vast majority of my readings in 2020 have been in English. So my personal challenge for 2021 will be to make my readings more diverse in language.
Swedish
I'm going to read two children's book classics by Astrid Lindgren (New School Classics):
1. Ronja rövardotter
2. Mio, min Mio
Dutch
I love reading in Dutch, but am very slow. So I'm going to up my game and go for three books:
1. Harry Potter en de Gevangene van Azkaban
A while ago I went on the quest of reading all HP books in Dutch - the translations are really funny, I had a good hard laugh reading books one and two. Book three was originally published in 1999, so I'm going to count it as New School Classic, although the translation is probably a little newer.
2. Anything from Jan Terlouw
He is one of the best known Dutch children's book authors. I am currently reading Koning van Katoren - so any book of his but that one will count. (New School Classics)
3. ??? I still need to find a third book; does not have to be a classic.
French
1. Bonjour tristesse (New School Classics)
2. Les belles images (New School Classics)
3. ??? I still need to decide on a third book.
Italian
1. ??? I want to read at least one Italian book.
German
In 2020 I reread Momo and some other children's books. But for more challenging works I only went for a spell of Heine - which was pritty devastating. So, I should tax myself more to read some in German.
1. I want to read all the ballads by Friedrich Schiller - not the poems, mind - but right now I'm having trouble finding an edition that only contains the ballads ... (Old School Classics)
English
I used to be head over heels in Old School Classics, but in 2020 I read not even one and went more for New School instead. For 2021 I am sending myself on a quest to read more Old School. - So my English books for this challenge will be from this section:
1. ??? Middlemarch (not yet sure of this choice)
2. ???
3. ???
At the moment I am very tempted to add the following:
Maurice
The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun
but "Maurice" is New School and this work of Tolkien's is not even a classic, as it was published only recently ...
Historic Languages
I used to love reading in historic languages, especially Middle English, but somehow never find the time nowadays. So I'm aiming for at least two works.
1. Troilus and Criseyde by Geoffrey Chaucer
The Riverside Chaucer
The listed book is Chaucer's complete work, but I am only going for Troilus and Criseyde. I think I've never read that one completely, so now is a good time.
2. I am thinking of adding Wigalois Text, Ubersetzung, Stellenkommentar to add a bit of Middle High German.
I've done that one in 2018 and 2019 for seminars, so reading it more relaxed and just for fun would be nice. However, as that was pretty recent I might want to add another work instead. ...
Alternates
I still need to decide which of these books will be my alternates. Also, these books add up to 15, so I'll have to kick one out of the challenge.