World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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If you're not in the U.S., what's up in your part of the world?
This is a fascinating exchange. Early on, nobody noticed/commented on my quoted joke on the Russian "I will die". The point missed was that it expressly related to literature. Anyone notice the gloom or Dostoyevsky, or the slow miserable decline in Anna Karenina? Yes, these are even older/more out of date than what Mis was accusing Nik of, but the issue was one of culture. For what it is worth (not much) I have spoken to a number of Russians, including two senior Russian officers during the first two days of a military invasion (one took 3/4 of an hour off to talk, admittedly in halting German because he knew no English and I knew no Russian), and the surprise I had was he was more philosophical than I have seen from corresponding officers in other militaries, who tend to be rather rigid in their views. But overall, I have found Russians to be a collection of different personalites, surprise surprise, just like other nations. However, I will also say if you find yourself on the wrong side of the guns from soldiers, I give myself more chance from Russians, because what they will do is more predictable.Nik says that Russia has no biz with Ukraine. Not so. Russia does not want NATO (i.e. US) missiles there pointed at Russia. Just because said missiles are in the Baltics (neatly positioned to defend against Iranian aggression ha ha) does not mean Russia needs more. If yoiu think that is unreasonable on Russia's part and Ukraine should be able to threaten Russia any time it likes, recall the US action regarding Cuban missiles. Kennedy was prepared to ash the world, and he came very close to doing just that. Effectively, it depended on one Russian submariner thinking more of humanity. If you count the number of military adventures the US has embarked on and the ones Russia has in the last couple of hundred years, maybe Putin has a genuine interest.
Good joke, Ian, sorry for not referring. Of course, there are different types of excellent people and one of them would be very judgmental about “bad Ukrainians”, “Georgians” and others. Maybe you forgot but Putin also toyed with the idea to join NATO early on, but was cold shouldered. It took them time to realize that they are unwanted in the EU club too, designed for the benefit of other countries.
If Putin sees NATO missiles heading his way in Ukraine I could understand if he took action, however nothing of a sort happened and Russia just grabbed territory and might want more. Ukraine threatening Russia? It’s kinda incomparable weight categories and again no such thing happened.
Grabbing by force can also be a mentality thing.
Beau wrote: "Mis, never doubt my fitness or willingness to insert my peg into differently-shaped holes." Lol, I don't doubt your willingness to. :)
Ian wrote: "Nik says that Russia has no biz with Ukraine. Not so. Russia does not want NATO (i.e. US) missiles there pointed at Russia. Just because said missiles are in the Baltics (neatly positioned to defend against Iranian aggression ha ha) does not mean Russia needs more." Precisely. Thanks for pointing that out. I thought about it but thought better of trying to talk at Nik about that :) He would've probably said that Russians should dream about being nuked to escape Putin or smth like that
Who am I to give advices to Russians. I just wish them to be happy 😃 If many adore Putin - fine with me. I just hope they’ll leave their neighbors alone. If they proudly mention being ‘invited’ to Syria, they are un- in Ukraine
Ian wrote: "my quoted joke on the Russian "I will die". The point missed was that it expressly related to literature. Anyone notice the gloom or Dostoyevsky, or the slow miserable decline in Anna Karenina?"Well, I missed it entirely. Due to a number of things: 1. Translation. 2. Me, not a fan of Dostoevsky. I do love noir but his doom and gloom are totally next level. And Karenina is not an ode to death but a story of a maladapted woman looking for adventure in the only way she knew how to. 3. The theme of death for D. reads to me more of a point on pointlessness of life, generally. All shades of no light at the end of the tunnel. And death being the only end to the tunnel. The 'I will die' separately from context reads to me like, I dunno, registering that one's personal life will end someday, maybe too soon. I'm not sure anyone ever in Russian lit was ever all too sorry to die. Maybe some WW2, WW1, Revolution heroic figures but still it's not an ofen-met feature since there's so many more to life more terrifying than death.
Were you referring to The Idiot? 'Let it be so! I will die, looking directly at the source of strength and life, and I will not want this life! If I had the power not to be born, I probably would not have accepted existence on such mocking conditions. But I still have the power to die, although I'm surrendering what has already been reckoned. No great power, no great rebellion.' I'd say it's not about death but about life and being unhappy with it enough to want an out, maybe?
Nik wrote: "they’ll leave their neighbors alone."Their neighbours might kindly want to consider leaving Russians alone first.
Deal. No worries, Ukraine is unlikely to grab Voronezh any time soon
Nik wrote: "Deal. No worries, Ukraine is unlikely to grab Voronezh any time soon"Allowing placing potentially unfrendly ballistic rockets on its territory also counts as being unfriendly. USSR's paid dearly by not paying adequate attention to Nazi Germany gathering forces to attack it in 1941 so Russia's not going to repeat that particular mistake anytime soon.
No 🚀 were put though. A small detail, but the aggression was totally unwarranted and it continues
Mis, fair enough to criticise my linking of Anna Karenina with Dostoevsky. I agree on the latter - his gloom is on another level. But for Anna, while I agree with the point you made about her options, and while the middle of the book has some really interesting parts on Russian life (I know how to use a scythe, and consequently there was that one scene in the middle that really struck me - Lev knew how to write!) I thought that as Anna moved towards the end there was a fatalistic gloom there. Maybe that's just me.
Nik, I had not forgotten that Russia did more than toy with joining NATO. There was a delegation in the air to engage in negotiations when the US announced the intention of moving missiles to the Baltics, which it had promised Moscow it would not do, at which point the plane turned right around and returned to Moscow. As for Russia grabbing territory, we have been over Crimea before. Russia was not going to give up its Black Sea port, which had been part of Russia until a Ukrainian in Moscow assigned to Ukraine for administrative reasons. Russia has lost far too much blood there. They even held up von Manstein for months, losing a huge number of men, while Ukraine was raising men to join SS Divisions. So there will be some inherent animosity to be expected.
If you are referring to Russia giving aid to the Eastern Ukrainians, look at how many regimes the US gives military aid to for political purposes. You think if a colony of Americans were oppressed by someone Washington would sit back and ignore it? Really?
Nik wrote: "No 🚀 were put though. A small detail, but the aggression was totally unwarranted and it continues"2 points you're missing here:
1. No missiles have been placed on Ukraine's territory so far becase it has demonstrated in Technicolor just how loose a cannon it is. And you don't give extra nuclear rockets to the loose cannon that just shoots at random at it own population: it might have a go at its military benefactors or start an all-out nuclear war or do anything else, the crazier the better in its skewed worldview.
2. After Ukraine struck out at peaceful people at Lugansk with military planes, Russia actually should've gone in straight to Kiev to enforce peace since obviously:
- it's not clear why it's okay to have a revolution in Kiev (where unidentified snipers were shooting at people=not peaceful) and not okay to have an extra one simultaneously in Lugansk (weaponless=peaceful).
In a truly democratic environment it should've been okay to run peaceful revolutions in each city, town and hamlet. Which is why I don't think Ukraine is any good at democracy.
- the eastern Ukraine is largely ethnic Russians and it's not okay to try and have ethnic cleansings with military-grade weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUchj...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98_kj...
The horrors on these videos (and more that aren't) done by Ukrainian army are what started this drawn out military disgrace/horror. The Ukraininan army is still using military grade weapons (Grads! the forbidden phosphor bombs! etc) against local population of which most are civilian.
If this is not military crimes committed by Ukrainin army, I don't know what ever is a military crime. Russia should've responded to this not with what you call 'agression' but the way of NATO against Yugoslavia in a very similar setting.
So, if Russia has been doing anything in that region - good for it. It still has all the moral and legal right to do more to enforce peace in its direct vicinity.
Ian wrote: "Mis, fair enough to criticise my linking of Anna Karenina with Dostoevsky. I agree on the latter - his gloom is on another level. But for Anna, while I agree with the point you made about her optio..."It's not you, it's me. Many Russians see it precisely the way you do, to be fair. I've just a strong dislike of making icons of literary characters who could've benefited from getting a good shrink (which is a very large part of world lit). So, my views are not mainstream in that respect, personal tastes and everything.Ian wrote: "I have found Russians to be a collection of different personalites, surprise surprise, just like other nations."Yep! That's totally right. On this thread you're about the only person who hasn't committed the major sin of lumping large populations into a nameless, faceless, personality-less mass.
Of course, all the nations consist of people who are drastically different from wach other, so saying things like 'all Chinese endorse smth' makes zero sense.
Ian, you can simply look at how many Ukrainians died in the ranks of the Red army fighting nazis. You’d understand it’s contribution to the victory. Western Ukraine was occupied by USSR two years before nazis entered. Although kgb did excellent work in instilling subjection to new rulers, I imagine people got a little confused who to side with repelling them. Black Sea port was under long term lease to Russia and nothing threatened it.
Lots of areas in Europe passed hands between different countries. You can keep grabbing them back and forth, however it was decided to stop. Russia was the first to use force to capture and annex areas since ww2.
There is no Russian colony in Ukraine, which Russia “helped”. They totally organized, funded, defended and armed the entire event. For some reason having rebels in Chechnya didn’t seem good, but to organize in Ukraine - wonderful.
Both unwarranted by anything, other than Russia’s establishment’s appetite to reinstate the empire.
Good you admit there were no missiles, Mis. That’s a good starter, which invalidates this pretext.All the rest is just Russian propaganda aimed at justifying a lowly and backstabbing act.
With all the spite, feels like you haven’t been to Ukraine recently. I bet you’ll like it and you’ll see for yourself to know how things are. I invite you and even offer a beer 🍺 on me like I offer any member, who’d come.
Nik wrote: "Ian, you can simply look at how many Ukrainians died in the ranks of the Red army fighting nazis. You’d understand it’s contribution to the victory. "Yeah, especially the guys who contributed to Babbiy Yar tragedy. I'm sure they were the ones who contributed most.* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar
I watched what happened when the Jews—men, women and children—arrived. The Ukrainians[b] led them past a number of different places where one after the other they had to give up their luggage, then their coats, shoes and over-garments and also underwear. They also had to leave their valuables in a designated place. There was a special pile for each article of clothing. It all happened very quickly and anyone who hesitated was kicked or pushed by the Ukrainians [sic][b] to keep them moving.
— Michael Berenbaum: "Statement of Truck-Driver Hofer describing the murder of Jews at Babi Yar"
Nik wrote: "Russia was the first to use force to capture and annex areas since ww2." Which ones? When? When did Russia ever strike 1st, unprovoked?
Yes, grabbed Crimea, first and unprovoked
Nik wrote: "Good you admit there were no missiles, Mis. "Don'tgo lying on my account. NATO hasn't yet placed nuke missiles in Ukraine. Not for the lack of trying.
Ukraine has used plenty of missiles against its own civilians. So, these missiles were there, until they were not. Along with their victims.
Nik wrote: "Yes, grabbed Crimea, first and unprovoked"Crimea was Russian always. Just like Ukraine since 1654 pact.
Nik wrote: "All the rest is just Russian propaganda aimed at justifying a lowly and backstabbing act." So, people torn to pieces and dying is Russian propaganda? Those were real people who died, you realise that? And they weren't military, just some admin gals and guys.I'm talking about the strike against Lugansk with military planes. Which was what started people getting weapons up.
Nik, I specifically said "if a colony of Americans were oppressed . ."You wrote "There is no Russian colony in Ukraine, which Russia “helped”." Now, the appropriate meaning of "colony" from the OED includes: People of one nationality or occupation in a city, especially of living more or less in isolation or in a special quarter. Think that is more or less reasonable for the Russian peoples in the Donbass area. As an side, it does not mean being ruled by some government elsewhere.
As for Ukrainians dying in the red army. what fraction came from the east? I bet it wasn't the followers of Stepan Bandera.
Nothing threatened Russia's Black Sea Port? With Ukraine suddenly trying to join NATO and taking lots of US money? Really? You might believe that, but I think Putin would have to be replaced if he was gullible enough to believe that.
Misericordia, looks like you read and watch a lot of fantasy/slash Russian propaganda. In any war unfortunately civilians die in the crossfire. No footage of such instances would be pretty. The war and ultimate responsibility for losses on both sides measured in thousands lies with Russia, who incited, armed, sent troops and bankrolled the ‘insurrection’ after quelling similar one in Chechnya.Crimea wasn’t Russian ‘ever’, as you can easily check. Russia vouched to guarantee Ukraine’s integrity, incl Crimea and then sent army without insignia to snatch it.
They also offered Hungary to grab back Uzhhorod which was under austro-Hungary at some point.
Sure, they can also take Finland, Belarus and Kazakhstan and other places. Why not, they were under Russia at certain periods of history.
Ian, nothing threatened Sevastopol. Russian navy based there alongside Ukrainian peacefully. Nothing necessitated an attack strategically, militarily or otherwise. My view - Pure aggressive opportunism and revanchism, based on the feeling of superiority over ‘subordinate’ in their eyes nations. You say you understand but didn’t endorse Russian actions, but you can be more outspoken 😎
Nik wrote: "Misericordia, looks like you read and watch a lot of fantasy/slash Russian propaganda. In any war unfortunately civilians die in the crossfire. No footage of such instances would be pretty."Nik, it feels to me like you read and watch a lot of fantasy/slash Ukrainian propaganda or its western translations. Nevertheless, I'd really like to hear some facts from you and not the ultimate responsibility distribution as you see it. From how I see it:
- there was no war on 2 June 2014, at all,
- no strikes should've been ordered against peaceful population,
- there shouldn't have been any Ukrainian military planes over any Ukrainian cities at any date inlcuding that one,
- it's awfully hard for a civilian to acidentally get in a military plane crossfire... How did they manage that?
... so no civilians should've been harmed in Lugansk by any military Ukrainian personnel at that point. So I do not accept your tinkering with 'shit happens' as a valid explanation of Ukrainian military crimes.
Can you explain how Ukraine manages to kill off bunches of its own civilians and what for w/o appealing to Ukrainian propaganda or screaming 'Russian propaganda time!'? Just plain facts how you think what they are. Especially considering that Lugansk is just one in a row of outrageous military crimes committed by Ukraine which gave Russia lots of valid reasons to go in (which it didn't so far, to be fair they were much more 'aggressive' in Armenia which turned out to be a good thing).
Nik wrote: "after quelling similar one in Chechnya"Well, I don't see you decrying the people who bankrolled the Chechnya insurrection. So, you think it's okay for someone to be growing up/funding/training/arming a Russia-based ISIS-type military force (which was what was going on in Chechnya) but not okay for Russia to support a Ukraine-based uprising of Russians?
When those people stand trial for their crimes against humanity, we could try to reconsider our view on Ukraine. Right now Russia has been taking lessons out of other countries books and just doing what others have shamelessly been doing. Why should it not?
Nik wrote: "Crimea wasn’t Russian ‘ever’" I'd like to see your facts for that. Did Ukraine fight someone for it or what? When? How did they get it? Do you realise that even Turkey has more claims on Crimea than Ukraine?
Nik wrote: "Russia vouched to guarantee Ukraine’s integrity" When?
On the funny side: I don't think even St Michael vouching for Ukraine's integrity could guarantee it since they don't seem to have a shred of it.
Mis, I think Wikipedia pretty accurately describes the chronology of the conflict: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_i... . You can easily find it yourself if you want to acquire some independent knowledge. Clearly, summer of 2014 was the apogee of military action, where Russia masterfully played a hybrid card.
Re Chechnya - again the chronology is important. They just wanted independence from Russia like many others. It was more than a decade before anyone heard of Isis when Vlad the hero showed his iron fist for the first time there 😎 Bravo ippon. For consistency he should’ve helped Ukraine fight the rebels like he helped assad not the other way around.
As of Russia’s assurances re Ukraine’s integrity you can familiarize yourself with Budapest memorandum and Putin’s lame explanation of its breach.
Nik wrote: "Mis, I think Wikipedia pretty accurately describes the chronology of the conflict: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_i... . You can easily find it yourself if you want to acquire some indepe..." 1. It's not at all correct since Ukraine has so far failed to provide adequate proof of most of the claims in there. And really, just how hard it is to, I dunno, make a photo of 'regular Russian troops' in Lugansk? Where are the photo, video, documentary materials about that?
I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle and as for the start of the thingy.... Ukraine is lying its ass off. I've got friends who lived there at the time whose recollections are drastically different from this, obviously proUkrainian propaganda page.
Proof of all this should look like this: 'regular Russian troops' seen by X and Y here and here, here is the footage made on this date, and conventional military Russian support consisting of this and that, seen here and here, on this date, here is the footage on that date'. What you've got in there is a bunch of words describing just how horrible Russians are w/o any particulars.
2. I was asking you just how do you justify military planes striking against a peaceful city administration on a particular date with about 11 victims dead. I've even given you a link to footage from there, do you see any soldiers in there? There's a list of people dead, the date is there, there are footages from that date - I want to know why you think all your claims about 'hybrid' whatevers justify a military plane attack against a peaceful city. It's NOT a rocket science question.
Nik wrote: "For consistency he should’ve helped Ukraine fight the rebels like he helped assad not the other way around." Ukraine's quite adequate at ethnic cleansings on its own, no help needed. On the more serious note, that wouldn't have flown well with the population of Russia, it's not monarchy, you know.
Nik wrote: "Re Chechnya - again the chronology is important. They just wanted independence from Russia "Muslim militarised fundamentalists have been along for a much longer time than ISIS under different names. I don't really care to list them all so you'll have to deal with me calling them plain old ISIS.
Long before 911 there were loads of terroristic acts throughout Russia, here's a woefully incomplete list of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor.... Most of these were linked to Chechnya. Extra cred question: how did guys from some mountain villages who just wanted independence from Russia get all the training and weaponry and all the rest that they'd need to get this good at terrorism?
Anyway, if Chechnya 'just wanted independence from Russia' and all the weaponry and instructors just materialised in there after having been sent in by fairies, then we should both agree that Donetsk, Lugansk and Odessa also just wanted independence from Ukraine and its messes and Russia had 0 influence at all.
Nik, as for "Crimea wasn’t Russian ‘ever’, as you can easily check." I always thought Potemkin acquired it from Turkey for Catherine. There was the famous poem relating to the Crimean war, in which the defenders were, er Russian. Definitely not Ukrainians. When von Manstein took the Crimea, he had to march effectively unopposed by Ukrainians first."nothing threatened Sevastopol. Russian navy based there alongside Ukrainian peacefully." Nik, that was with Ukraine under Yanukovich, who the CIA helped those peace-loving Ukrainians to be deposed. Those peace-loving Ukrainians then tried to make up to the West and there was a serious possibility of NATO coming into Ukraine. That would make a Russian base at Crimea strategically a dead loss. If you really believe Putin had any other option if he wanted to be sure to control that base I am afraid your grasp of military strategy is extraordinarily weak. Check a map sometime.
There is plenty of well documented evidence. Here is one example: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc....You gonna laugh. They got into Ukraine ‘accidentally’ 🤪
Ukraine was bombing ‘rebels’, which happened to be armed with top notch Russian weaponry that probably they bumped into also accidentally, and anyhow much better than the regular Ukrainian army. Surely, I regret loss of civilian lives, which is inevitable in populated areas.
From your last paragraph I can infer that you understand exactly the degree of Russian involvement.
Nik wrote: "As of Russia’s assurances re Ukraine’s integrity you can familiarize yourself with Budapest memorandum and Putin’s lame explanation of its breach."Just had a look at Budapest memorandum you mentioned. Well, it was written by non-professional lawyers probably (like most of stuff happening in the 90s) who didn't consider it important to qualify the sort of integrity beyon it being 'territorial'. Personally, I would've been also more inclined to interpret it as concerning only nuclear stuff (Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons).
Any nukes proliferated in Crimea? No.
Ukraine independent? Not so much with US being all kinds of busy in there but that's US being shady not Russia.
Anyway, let's imagine aliens arrive and attack Ukraine. Whould UK be obligated to go and fight the aliens under this document? Don't see why.
Also, the thing is: Crimea wasn't conquered. It wasn't a military thing. They ran a referendum there, a very nifty one, I give you that, at a very opportune time (maybe Ukraine should have revolutions in Kiev less often, to stop losing territories while they are busy having coups and shooting each other on Khreschatik), so technically, no one forbade Crimea to up and leave Ukraine.
Crimea was also technically free to join anything, incl the Galaxy of Orion. Russia was closer so its Russia they chose to join not Orion. As they technically perfectly could, were allowed to and did.
Let's imagine the opposite is true: that this BM somehow doesn't allow referendums. I don't think it would be valid for the terrotory of either Ukraine or Russia since both are democracies and maintain freedom of will, choice, votes, etc. So... I don't think BM means much in terms of current Crimea conundrum. Basically, Crimea has the right to up and go. And it excercised it. What Ukraine should've done is demand a revote: maybe it would've been different, who knows? (Though likely not).
Nik wrote: "From your last paragraph I can infer that you understand exactly the degree of Russian involvement." I'm saying that Russia either helped someone or inspired. Definitely fed the people. But troops, regular troops? If there were all those troops, there would've been a lot more material than whatever measly measlies there are. Also, Kiev would've long since been reporting to Moscow, if there was regular army in there. Think Armenia or Georgia. I'm talking about that. As for those guys who seemingly stumbled into Ukraine by accident. I temember that they had some strange passports and some sort of military ids on them which, uh, well, Russian troops don't use. So, that article somehow didnt wind up being a proof of Russian soldiers being caught red-handed in Ukraine but smth else.
If they were for real, what are their names, where did they take them, why are there 4 photos while there seem to have been captured 10 soldiers? After all, 20km from Russian border is not too far on modern cars... What happened to them? Did they testify in some international court? If they are for reals they should and I want to see footage. If they didn't it's a fake.
And it's totally hilarious when Chechnya is referred to as 'just wanting independence'. Bin Laden also wanted indepence, I'm sure.
In what way, Nik, were the Eastern rebels' weapons "much better than the regular Ukrainian army." I gather the Ukrainians bombed the rebels, and the rebels had no air power, so in that at least the "betterness" was clearly the other way around.
Nik wrote: "Ukraine was bombing ‘rebels’, which happened to be armed with top notch Russian weaponry that probably they bumped into also accidentally, and anyhow much better than the regular Ukrainian army. Surely, I regret loss of civilian lives, which is inevitable in populated areas." That was a city administration center building in Lugansk that had no weapons or armed people. In that strike, Lugank healthcare minister, Natalya something, was killed, among other people. Also it seems that the proRussian opposition leader was in there who survived.Does that building sound like there were weapons in there? If there were no weapons, why? To kill off political opponents? With a military plane? Did they expect there would be no one at work at 3 pm on Monday? Or did they think it okay to kill all the bystanders around as long as the political opposition dies?
I think the latter and I think it's unacceptable for a democratic setting. It's a military crime and Ukraine officials should be punished for it.
Ian, what you ‘always believed’ is easily verifiable today through Internet. As you can imagine the Red Army was composed of all nationalities fighting alongside each other. I’m not sure you can prove numerically that more Russians than Ukrainians defended or liberated Crimea.Now distinguish between Soviet Ukraine and Western Ukraine that was a part of Poland and captured by USSR just two years before nazis attacked. They never saw themselves Russian or Soviet. That some of them sided with nazis in hope to get rid of the Russians is very unfortunate and I criticize myself idiotic policy of claiming some of them were heroes seeking independence.
Sure, I’m not Suvorov or renowned military strategist, but Crimea is kinda far from Moscow. Kiev is much closer, why not invade it too? Odessa has an excellent military port, which surely be useful to park Russia flotilla. Grab it too.
As you like to say - where is the evidence of CIA’s involvement? You have none, unless you discovered it in NZ and keep it to yourself. Or maybe Nuland’s giving donuts to Kievans is enough?
Re Yanukovich - he just came to agreement with the protesters under which he would stay, endorsed by western brokers …Only to disappear from office the day after and reappear again in Russia few days later with truckloads of the despicable US dollars, which he probably obtained from CIA and leaving behind his notorious gold loaf 🍞.
Mis, anyone can conduct a referendum under a gun point, and I assure you in this manner they can vote to become a part of Zimbabwe 🇿🇼 if need be.
If you are such a fan of the right of peoples for self determination, please allow dozens of Russian autonomies undertake them. I bet you’ll be very surprised by the results.
I studied in a Russian speaking school, many/most of my mates there are ethnic Russians, but they are Ukrainian patriots no matter how critical they are of it. None wants Putin like regime. But you can enjoy it, no problem 🇷🇺👍💰
Mis, You want testimonies in international court? that’s brilliant. Here happens to be an excellent opportunity: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc....What better venue to show it’s all baseless accusations?
If the captives are not Russian, why exchange them? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc....
Nik wrote: "Mis, anyone can conduct a referendum under a gun point, and I assure you in this manner they can vote to become a part of Zimbabwe 🇿🇼 if need be." No one conducted it under a gun point. Anyway, what prevented Ukraine rerunning it, fair and square? Nik wrote: "If you are such a fan of the right of peoples for self determination, please allow dozens of Russian autonomies undertake them." LoL, I personally will. Right after Texas is allowed to. And Catalonia.
Nik wrote: "Red Army was composed of all nationalities ... more Russians than Ukrainians defended or liberated Crimea. " Ukrainians didn't just join Red Army but were very busy killing Jews as well:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Fun thing: here's a list of Bandera streets in Ukraine
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%... So, it's not like many Ukrainians are sharing your lack of enthusiasm over western Ukrainians SS tendencies.
USSR army fought not only over freeing Crimea but the Ukraine as well. So, I've no idea what kind of claim you're trying to prove here by stating that there were some Ukrainians in the Red Army. I'm sure there were some Georgians fighting over places like Lviv, should they stake some claim or what?
When people (Ian, historians, Putin, me) say Crimea's Russian they usually mean that Russia fought over it between 1568 and 1783. Which is much longer than Ukraine exists independently several times over.
Nik wrote: "I studied in a Russian speaking school, many/most of my mates there are ethnic Russians, but they are Ukrainian patriots" Forgive me my skepticism but I have my doubts since you don't even distinguish Russian names. All Ukrainians do.
Nik wrote: "If the captives are not Russian, why exchange them?" If they are really topography-challenged border patrollers, why not?The real quetion is: you are the president of Ukraine and there is an army of invisible Russian troopers on invisible tanks attacking your country. You can't snap photos of them or see them. Yet you manage to catch 10 of them red handed. Why exchange them and not make them testify for UN, NATO, everyone? You milk it for what it's worth and more. If they really are attacking attackers, that is.
If they are really border patrollers who managed to accidentally stumble 20 km inside Ukraine border, well, then exchanging them is best. Right?
What prevented Ukraine from rerunning the referendum? Russian army obviously which captured the peninsula, what else? You can have doubts. To dissuade them, I suggest you pay a visit. It’s not a lion’s den. I’m sure you’ll enjoy it and its friendly people and will likely change your opinion.
Catalonia is one example, but you can borrow another from Canada or UK, which did just that instead of sending tanks to Montreal or Edinburg.
Mis, what better evidence can be better than presenting live Russian soldier? There is so much evidence of Russia’s involvement that it feels like proving a Pythagorean theorem anew. But here is something maybe you can cross check: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...., if you happen to be near Pskov.
I surely don’t want to undermine Ian as a famous historian, but it looks like that only a tiny fraction of countries expressed this particular historical knowledge and full heartedly recognized Russian claim for Crimea. Not even China and many other not exactly pro-American friends.
About Eastern Ukraine the whole world apart from Russian media also kens the score.
Unfortunately, there were nazi collaborators among many nations. There were also people of all nationalities saving Jews and others sometimes risking their lives. Maybe only Danes managed to save all of their Jewish population from nazis. I don’t think it would be right to judge an entire nation by its worst.
Nik wrote: "I don’t think it would be right to judge an entire nation by its worst. "No one does or even cares beyond Ukraine's current war crimes.Nik wrote: "There is so much evidence of Russia’s involvement that it feels like proving a Pythagorean theorem anew. " Let me reiterate: I don't think Russian regular army is there. It is in Armenia and you can just walk a street and see them there. That there are 10 soldiers that were documented during a what, an 8-year conflict? I think it sort of reinforces that instead of disproving. In a war with a regular army you don't notice 1.25 soldiers per annum. At least, I don't think that's how it works.
If there are any other things: instructors, weapons, food, training - the very same things were provided to Chechnya and you endorsed their 'fight for independence'. LDNR are also fighting for independence, why not teach them?
Nik wrote: "What prevented Ukraine from rerunning the referendum? Russian army obviously which captured the peninsula, what else? " Russian army did not capture the peninsula. It magically appeared the next day after the referendum from how I hear it.
As for Ukraine - it never even raised the issue which is important. I think it's because they knew 1) the consensus would be to choose Russia over Ukraine, 2) they don't really believe in democracy since they aren't one.
Nik wrote: "You can have doubts. To dissuade them, I suggest you pay a visit. It’s not a lion’s den." Gawd, Of course I did. Several times. Before COVID. Well, I went in w/o problems, though my colleague, they had been searching her stuff for ages.
If you want my opinion, i thought at least some of the people I met had some nasty drug habit. Some were cool but most were really-really weirded out by me not rushing to decry the 'Russian agression', others insisted I watch TV with them since I obviously needed urgent TV info infusion on Russian army attacking something or other, some were ... weird? Maybe they expected me to unpack a Russian tank or go Red Parrot (or was that Sparrow?) on their asses or something... Met some fruitcakes, also:
- one guy just couldn't make up his mind which language to use with me: he knew Russian but didn't want to use it with me since I'm 'the agressor', he didn't know shit of Ukrainian so couldn't speak it well especially knowing I'm fluent at it, he really wanted to use English but knew just several words of it. So he settled at talking at me with a mesh of words from all 3. It was like 'The'+'Russian noun'+;Ukraiian verb'+'English preposition'+'Ukrainian noun'+'English verb'+'Ukrainian preposition'.... Obviously, I made myself very scarce and made my best to stay the hell away from him.
- the older gal who asked me 'how I cook my hedgehogs'. At first, I though she was kidding me. Then I thought it was some slang or maybe I misheard... Then I though that she must have meant 'how I cook FOR my hedgehogs' and thought that maybe she had an idea that maybe I had some wounded hedgehog shelter? But then where would I get all those hedgehogs to cook for? Well... it turned out that she meant some obscure article on the Ukrainian net about how Russia has been in some dark economy times since 2014 and so the hungry Russian people were ... uh... improving their diets by catching and eating hedgehogs as a source of extra protein. So, she wanted me to share a recipe.
- another 5 or 6 people went right at my throat trying to prove all the same points you've just been trying to make (Chechnya, independence, Russian regular invisible army, rebels shooting at their own stations, Crimeas is ours you bitch, the mysterious Pskov division, the soldiers from Buryatiya doing I don't even remember or care what crazy shit, ... etc) What I can say - it's really tiring when people repeat each other like parrots verbatim. Ukrainian propaganda much?
- I had some very strange discussions about how Ukrainian language, culture, theater are so very frakking superiour and even Jesus endorsed it all.
- A very interesting person gave us a very strange 25-minute uncalled for lecture in Ukrainian history (thanks to my colleague who unwisely asked them 'What, you have a history?') LOL, they showed us they did. Now I know that some knyaz had a habit of turning into a wolf since he was a kharakternik.... It's very useful in my daily life.
I didn't enjoy people searching my stuff in a hotel. But exactly same thing happened soon after in Belarus so maybe it's a trait of all post-USSR republics, I dunno.
By the end of my first stay, I started suspecting that either they were all pulling my leg (and each other's, I made sure to listen in on them talking to each other, LOL!) or everyone was getting dosed with something psychoactive, daily?... drinking water, perhaps? The next time I was there I made sure to talk only business and get out of there ASAP since I was pretty much fed up with all the antics.
I'm laughing describing this stuff now but at the time it felt like a trip to an insane asylum.Then, Ukrainians have always been ... goofy... in my experience. They often are nice and interesting but off.
For instance, about 15 years ago I saw a bunch of ladies guarding their trashpiles: they would sit next to giant piles of rotting trash and were forbidding neighbours to throw trash out. Each trashpile was guarded all day long by lady volunteers.
Vlad here will help me and you to restore the chronology of the conquest of Crimea: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc....Do you really think Ukraine initiated and held a referendum?
I’m sure I can offer you better experiences in Ukraine and less drug affected ppl😎
The active fighting in eastern Ukraine took place along 2014, which brunt was borne largely by Russian forces without insignia/making navigation mistakes/ on marvelous vacation in Donbas mining regions/ on waterless cruise tours, etc. Then a truce in 2015, during which no one advances or retreats, and they just shell each other maybe to launder stolen ammunition budgets for there is hardly any other use. So obviously captive soldiers belong to an active fighting period of 2014 mostly.
Ladies guarding trash piles? Come on, Mis, you really think anyone would believe these scary and ludicrous stories? Some actually been there and I’m sure returned with different experiences.I’d yet to see a smiling face on Moscow streets or Piter’s intelligentsia actually praising and favoring all the friends from Central Asia that came there en masse to work and live.
Nik wrote: "I surely don’t want to undermine Ian as a famous historian, but it looks like that only a tiny fraction of countries expressed this particular historical knowledge and full heartedly recognized Russian claim for Crimea. Not even China and many other not exactly pro-American friends."Actually, Crimea never went as a package deal with Ukraine. The Crimean tatars regularly atacked Ukrainian territories, looted them, enslaved Ukrainians. Think Roxolana.It was Russia who during 2 centuries of wars (1568 - 1783) managed to conquer the region and stop it from being a source of all kinds of military campains against it and Ukraine.
That people don't know history is their problem, I say. Facts speak for themselves.
Nik wrote: "Do you really think Ukraine initiated and held a referendum?"Activists did. Ukraine should've done another one. Could've done it with US's/UN's help.
Nik wrote: "The active fighting in eastern Ukraine took place along 2014," Not what my friends who live there tell. They keep using rockets/snipers/etc against each other, maybe with less intensity but they have been keeping at it for all this time.
Actually, my friend's wife went there to visit her family in what, 2018? Smth like that. Almost was killed in a shelling of a bus stop. Was scared enough by seeing all the dead ppl in pieces to relocate her parents within the next week. As you can imagine, it wasn't Russian shelling.
Or, here's an interview of grandma of a kid killed in Donetsk in 2021: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvvup...
I don't think these are not war crimes.
Nik wrote: "I’m sure I can offer you better experiences in Ukraine and less drug affected ppl"I think they are media affected. The Ukrainian propaganda machine seems brutal.
Nik wrote: "Ladies guarding trash piles? Come on, Mis, you really think anyone would believe these scary and ludicrous stories? Some actually been there and I’m sure returned with different experiences.I’d ye..." I swear it's true! LOL!
They were guarding those trash piles since the drivers who would take the trash out were on strike. So, the ladies made sure neighbours didn't crosspollinate those trashpiles. Ludicrous, my ass) Maybe it's you who needs to visit Ukraine (and go somewhere a bit further than Kiev).
Although I accept that Nik exists, firmly believe that he’s Ukrainian, and admit that I know very little about Russo-Ukrainian relations, my overall perception of the wider East/ West question, from the comfort of my armchair in Great Britain, is in line with Misericordia, in that the West, particularly with regards to EU expansionism, has shown an unwarranted level of aggression towards Russia over the last few decades. While I regard myself as a British patriot, I don’t like this one bit.
J, I was too quick to agree with you over the censorship of the Stalin film, the reason being that I’m used to agreeing with your points. On reflection, how can we condemn this sort of behaviour when our own societies are rife with cancel culture?
Ian, I noticed your joke but forgot to comment on it. It was very funny.
Anyway, I’m now going to abstain from this particular debate because I find myself caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. On the one hand, Nik is a superb man by every conceivable measurement but, on the other, judging by her profile picture, Misericordia is an exceptionally attractive woman. Who would want to take sides when faced with a conundrum like this?
J, I was too quick to agree with you over the censorship of the Stalin film, the reason being that I’m used to agreeing with your points. On reflection, how can we condemn this sort of behaviour when our own societies are rife with cancel culture?
Ian, I noticed your joke but forgot to comment on it. It was very funny.
Anyway, I’m now going to abstain from this particular debate because I find myself caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. On the one hand, Nik is a superb man by every conceivable measurement but, on the other, judging by her profile picture, Misericordia is an exceptionally attractive woman. Who would want to take sides when faced with a conundrum like this?
Yeah, a delicate choice. Choose Mis, otherwise some questions about orientation might pop 🆙Speaking about unwarranted aggression from the West, Ukraine doesn’t count belonging, so whatever counter-aggression arises Ukraine is clearly a wrong punching bag for Russian impotence to square the score elsewhere
Nik, you are correct - I do not know there weren't any Ukrainians defencing the Crimea. My knowledge of that campaign is mainly from the writings of von Manstein, who persistently referred to the enemy when not using the word Soviet" was "Russians", and I assumed he knew. Kutzenov sounded to me sort of Russian, the main supply came from Kerch, which is Russian, and all the action and Soviet supplies and reinforcements came from well East of the Dneiper, so yes, I guessed they would be mainly Russian because any Ukrainians fighting for the Soviets would presumably have already been defeated or encircledThe strategic value of the Crimea remains as then. As von Manstein pointed out, you could not drive an army any further than Rostov if the Crimea remained in Russian hands. And if NATO had uncontested control of the Black Sea, the SW part of Russia would be exceptionally vulnerable. Why not take Kyiv? I respond with why? What good is it? Crimea is strategic for defence; Kyiv would be simply a nuisance. If he were to take anything extra, Mariupol would make more sense, and he didn't.
Evidence of CIA interest? At the revolution the Director of the CIA was recorded as being there. Why? Did he go for the view? The weather?
Yanukovich came to a deal? I bet the deal was not that he would stay in office. More likely he would be given time to flee.
Finally, you still haven't told me about the superior weapons the Eastern Ukrainians had over the Western Ukrainians.
World, Writing, Wealth
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1984 (other topics)Common Sense (other topics)
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Mel Brooks (other topics)Victor Davis Hanson (other topics)
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No they were crushed. The failure was not the war, but the failure to rebuild properly, which gave the Taliban time to rebuild. They also had a place to hide and that was why they were not eradicated.