World, Writing, Wealth discussion
World & Current Events
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If you're not in the U.S., what's up in your part of the world?
Ian, the penetration of the West to Russian and Ukrainian biz is negligible for different reasons as opposed to Czech, Romania, Poland and others.At no point ‘missiles’ were on the cards for Ukraine. It’s Russian propaganda. As far as I’m aware Russia and US have bilateral missiles agreements, which last time I remember was cancelled in the light of Russia’s violations (inf treaty). Don’t know enough whom to believe, if anyone.
To extrapolate further on Russia’s worldview, to them Europe might’ve become sort of “faggots” literally and virtually, the only force they reckon with is the States.
Ukraine is unlikely to become a NATO member, too many reasons why not, however you’d probably agree with me that Nato can’t possibly let Russia have a veto on who can aspire to join the alliance.
If similarly to Barack Joe blinks, Russia might just order its army to go in.
I guess we differ, Nik, and the only way to find out is to wait and see. According to the Russians, Ukraine is still pestering NATO for admission. If Russia is lying, all Joe has to do is say Putin is lying (the US will know because NATO without the US is almost pointless) but so far Joe has refused to say so. That suggests to me that Putin is being truthful, at least on that issue. Either that or Joe is asleep at the wheel, and that could be bad news. If I am right and Joe is not asleep, if Joe promises no missiles in Ukraine and no NATO troops in return for no invasion, there will be no invasion. Both sides have a win.Agreed Russia has no right of veto, but it can state what the consequences will be. My guess is Russia does not want to have to govern Ukraine - it would be too much trouble and Russia is not short of land.
J. wrote: "What did the Finn's do to provoke the Winter War?How was splitting Poland with NAZI Germany moral?
And how is revolting against the Soviet boot moral grounds for sending columns of tanks into foreign nations?"
What does the USSR have to do with Russia? Why not discuss the Rzecz Pospolita or the Ottoman Empire while we're at it?
USSR is not precisely Russia, you realize that? It’s a conglomerate of disparate countries with Russia as one of them and with Russia being corrupted by the Marxist, communist and other BS ideas not from Russia. Why?
Did you know where Lenin and the rest of the crazy bunch studied their ideology? In Geneva, Zurich, Stuttgart, Kuokkala, Helsingfors, London, Paris, Lozanne, Capri, Berlin, Copenhagen, Krakow, Munich, Vienna, Montreux. Basel… You can look up his diaries and you will be surprised at how little time he actually spent in Russia before the revolution. Now, who funded all that traipsing around? ‘Poor workers’ and ‘oppressed labourers’ and ‘bored bourjoisie/nobility’? Or someone else who had funds available and believed that Russia was at the time a dangerous competitor who was best dealt with by creating dire problems for it. Internal ones, like a civil war, maybe? We see how well that worked what with the USSR getting built (surprise, surprise!) of the ashes of the Russian Imperia.
If you like to draw historical parallels, I invite you to compare the bolshevism/communism history with the same thing happening with Islamic radicals who were trained and grown and armed and taught the way of we know what we know by whom. And then they turned around and bit the master.
Just like the commies who became the new scary unfairy tale to make kids afraid of and (as the saying goes) to practice hiding under the table from in case of nukes attack.
That's for 1.
J. wrote: "What did the Finn's do to provoke the Winter War?How was splitting Poland with NAZI Germany moral?
And how is revolting against the Soviet boot moral grounds for sending columns of tanks into foreign nations?"
For 2nd:
So, let’s all keep in mind that in 1939 USSR was very commie-oriented and the prevailing approved belief was that spreading Socialism is a great idea. After all, the USSR wet through a hell of a civil war and was quite all right. That’s #1 why for all the cases you’re mentioning here.
So, let's think Finland:
1 We won’t ever know what was going on through people’s heads then but it does look like Finland had negotiations with the Nazi Germany. The USSR at the time was desperately trying to postpone the inevitable attack of the Germany, trying to get in bed with it, trying to look as harmless as possible, trying to do pretty much whatever it takes while building up the industries useful if at war and the human capital (sharpshooters, medics, drugs, steel industry, machinery… everything it could). So getting a set of pro-Germany countries smack next to it wasn’t acceptable.
2. Mannerheim’s rhetorics about the East/Russian Karelia, his help to anti-Soviet separatists over tbere, Finnish Civil war of ‘reds’ against ‘whiles’ aided by Germany + Sweden and a win scored for the whites+Germany+Sweden – all these made going to war against Finland before it joins the Germany and attacks first probably sound a lot better than it should’ve.
3. Looks like there was some provocation and Finns did attack some USSR outposts which quickly turned into a war. Who would've guessed, right?
This point, I think, merits about 50/50 trust since both sides say the other one attacked them. Very unusual approach.
4. Communism, that nasty Western doctrine/sect that got transplanted to Russia and grew out of all proportions scaring the masters (probably). Just like militaristic Islam (ISIS and Bin Laden and the rest of it all). Don't you see the parallel? First they fund some crazy sect, then the crazies go doing their bidding, then they turn and bite master. Nice.
So, that's Finland. Can't say that Finland did exactly nothing to warrant a war.
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Poland... What do you suggest the USSR did instead of joining the skirmish? Any ideas?
Should they have left 100% of Poland to Hitler's tender mercies? Considering that Polaks are Slavs that would've meant controlling 0 of the territory, letting Hitler come a lot closer to the USSR border and leaving 100% of Slav population to hang dry. While the USSR also wasn't 100% very kind and forgiving the citizens who weren't commies, looks like many more people survived on the USSR part of Poland than on the Nazi one. Including the plain old Jews.
Should they have attacked Germany? The USSR wasn't ready, they were milking Hitler for time while teaching people to shoot, parachute, training troops, building industries, etc. Anyway, had they attacked Hitler first you would've been singing now just how poor scared teeny weeny Hitler was attacked by the big bad Russians, right?
What other options were there for them? Other then diplomacy, partial control and trying to be the cleverer of the two?
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'revolting against the Soviet boot moral grounds for sending columns of tanks into foreign nations'? You are gonna be surprised but the USSR was just as emotionally indignant about the 'capitalist opressors, exploiters and other like BS'. The doctrines of 'Soviet boot' vs 'capitalist exploiters' seem to be equally standing somehere in the dolt territory.
Particularly so considering this 'Soviet boot' was made somewhere around Geneva, Zurich, Stuttgart, Kuokkala, Helsingfors, London, Paris, Lozanne, Capri, Berlin, Copenhagen, Krakow, Munich, Vienna, Montreux and Basel. Righty-right?
Anyway, if we're talking footwear, what's so great about 'the US boot' traipsing where it doesn't belong?
Nik wrote: "Because countries want them, they come invited. I'm sure Poles, Czechs and other believe it's the best decision they made. " Do they? Do they really? Did anyone do referendums on that point? Will they still think so if shit hits the fan and nukes land in places? Which's all this warmongering and 'best decisions' are aimed at, you have to realise, don't you?
Like I'm saying, footwear.
Scout wrote: " I think Misery is a troll"Well, I think about everyone here is sorely misinformed and undereducated but what can I do other that try to educate you guys a bit beyond newspapers and other such BS where everyone seems to get there info.
Papaphilly wrote: "Except for Belarus and Ukraine, Russia has lost its western border protection. It has been invaded twice in its history and both times came from the same direction. "Well, a bit more than twice:WW1
WW2
1812 - Napoleon, Moscow burned
Livonian knights, Teutonic knights - a bunch of attacks and battles and wars took place on the territories of the Kievan Rus, like, over 10
1223 - 1480 Tatar-Mongol wars (all on the territories of the Kievan Rus)
1507, 1541, 1552, 1571 - wars of Crimean Khanat against Russia, in the last one Moscow burned
1507-1537 - about 3 wars where either Rzecz Pospolita or Lithuanian Great Duchy or something like that went up in arms against Russia
1609-1619 - Rzecz Pospolita schlacht in Kreml, basically, A war against Russia and a political coup, all in one.
1768-1772 - Rzecz Pospolita strikes again, briefly
1792 - Rzecz Pospolita yet again
A bunch of Sweden-initiated wars, don't remember the dates
A bunch of Ottoman Imperia-initiated wars, can't bother writing out all the dates since it's a total mess lasting on and off for centuries...
Many more but you probably get the drift by now and I don't want this post to turn into an encyclopedia. A lot of wars on the territory of Russia most of whichc did come from the European direction with the exception of Tatar-Mongol stuff.
Nik wrote: "Now, Ukraine is the crossfire." Nope, it's not the crossfire, it's an unholy mess because of a bunch of thieving polititians which seem to be the only kind Ukraine has ever had. Nobody gives a damn about Ukraine other than it being a piece of real estate to place weapons at. The rest is just you retelling us the Ukrainian newspapers. Yes, they have propaganda in Ukraine - shocker, right?
Nik wrote: "Ian, the penetration of the West to Russian and Ukrainian biz is negligible for different reasons as opposed to Czech, Romania, Poland and others." Where do you get that info? I've got different one on a number of, for instance, Ukrainian businesses that changed hands in exactly this direction during the last 20 years or so. Have you ever travelled over there?
Beau wrote: "Sorry, Mis, I was only pulling your leg. It’s been an education reading yours and Nik’s arguments on this thread, as well as the notable contributions from Ian, over at the digital-financial complex.I might be a Westerner but I’m most certainly not hostile to Russia and don’t buy into the anti-Russian sentiment of the WEF/ Davos crowd, who now see to dominate our politics and media. Russia is a great country and President Putin is by far the most astute leader of the modern era. Just try and be kinder to Nik and Ukraine :) " It's all righty. No Skynet from me, yet. (But I might get around to it. Each and every bot gotta love the idea, LOL)
Well, it's just that I really like to state things like they are and considering I'm part Ukrainian, part Polish, part Jewish, part a bunch of other things AND I actually have lived a lot in Ukraine and I travelled it and a bunch of other places, so... I sort of think I can say things like they actually are in there.
Don't get me wrong, I do love all the countries equally. There literally are no bad countries around. But some are certifiable. And Ukraine's the front-runner in that. No matter how diplomatic or undiplomatic we get about it, it's unique in making its problems someone else's. Always.
While they've been at it for centuries it's always someone else's fault; Rczecz Pospolita, Ottoman Empire, Russian Empire, Turkey, etc.... I have a feeling that this attitude should've gotten old, like, in 1700s. But for some reason they are still at it.
Biden and Putin are supposed to have had extensive talks. Has anyone hear an outcome? The news is strangely quiet here.As to what happens if Russia does get belligerent, Ursula von der Leyen has called for increased sanctions, including removing Russia from the international money system, so Russia could not change currency with the West. I guess she wants Europe to freeze this winter because if Europe refused to pay for gas, presumably Russia would stop sending it.
Mis, what you have to recognise is that if Russia was not "the evil opponent" there would be no point in having NATO and the US military Industrial complex would have no real arms sales. Firing workers in these huge factories is not exactly a winning electoral strategy.In your list of wars, you appear to have forgotten the Crimean war, where Britain, through Florence Nightingale, finally recognised they needed better care for soldiers, and second, had yet to recognise they needed better field commanders, as recorded by "The Charge of the Light Brigade".
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "Except for Belarus and Ukraine, Russia has lost its western border protection. It has been invaded twice in its history and both times came from the same direction. "Well, a bit ..."Maybe you should read the history of why the Soviet Union took Eastern Europe and created the iron curtain. It was directly tied to the two invasions. As for WWI, I do not remember Russia being invaded and being pretty much left alone after they collapsed upon themselves and started their revolution. Yet, I am fuzzy on every detail. The Eastern front was lost, but that was not Russia and the Southern Campaigns caused the collapse if I have my history right. Yet, Russia was not deeply invaded. Only twice and that was enough. This is about trying to hold the line against NATO because they had lost the rest of Eastern Europe except for Belarus as part of their sphere.
Ian wrote: "Mis, what you have to recognise is that if Russia was not "the evil opponent" there would be no point in having NATO and the US military Industrial complex would have no real arms sales. Firing wor..."As I have said before, Crimea has an interesting history.
As for Ukraine and the the U.S. war machine, It is not the United States building up forces on the Eastern border. It was not the United States that sent troops to Crimea. It is not the United States threatening Ukraine and the rest of Europe.
I do not see Russia shutting off the gas because their entire economy is built on it. It would be every bit as debilitating to Russia and it would only get to play that card once.
Russia was invaded during WW1, although arguably it was Russia's fault. The Germans were happy to eventually have peace there because of the meat grinding of the Western front. The depth of the invasion is probably not important compared with the losses of men and infrastructure. Men were the main loss in WW1, although a lot of property would have gone too.I understand Stalin offered the West a neutral Eastern Europe. Austria accepted, but I gather the West did not, hence the Iron Curtain. I could be wrong in parts there because details are not reliably obtained.
Papaphilly wrote: "Ian wrote: "Mis, what you have to recognise is that if Russia was not "the evil opponent" there would be no point in having NATO and the US military Industrial complex would have no real arms sales..."I presume you would accept that it has to shut off the gas if the EU refuses to pay for it? The fact that the EU introduced a banking condition that meant they couldn't pay for it does not excuse them for not paying.
Ian wrote: "I understand Stalin offered the West a neutral Eastern Europe. Austria accepted, but I gather the West did not, hence the Iron Curtain. I could be wrong in parts there because details are not reliably obtained..."I think it started before WWWII with Russia demanding influence over a number of countries and worked a deal with Germany until Germany invaded. I have not heard of any deal of open borders and while I do not discount it, I find it problematic because hostilities were apparent from the start with both the West and the Soviet Union after the war.
Depending on which view one takes, it could have been the rebuilding of Germany that set the Soviet Union on the path or it could have been the Soviet Union did not want Germany to be rebuilt and would not provide an accounting of what they stripped from Germany and took back to the Soviet Union which started the Marshall Plan. The Soviet Union also was determined to have a ring of countries to protect it from another invasion, which started prior to WWWII, which caused the West to become uneasy.
Ian wrote: "I presume you would accept that it has to shut off the gas if the EU refuses to pay for it? The fact that the EU introduced a banking condition that meant they couldn't pay for it does not excuse them for not paying. ..."No I mean Russia does not have its interests served by shutting off the gas. I am not talking about Europe not paying for the gas in the first place. Russia has threatened to do so and have had "problems" occur, which is tantamount to sabre rattling. yet, if they go that route, it would backfire because countries will ensure they have a different supply, which would undermine the Russian economy. Putin is playing the tough guy, but he is playing a weak hand. He is playing well, but it is weak.
I do not believe Russia would shut off gas to make a point. My comment was that Ursula von der Leyen has threatened to make it impossible for the EU to pay for it. That is the only point I was trying to make about gas.Following WWII, I had heard many times that Stalin offered a neutral Eastern Europe, provided the West promised not to move military assets into the zone. That would give the Soviet Union the protection it wanted because it was felt unlikely that NATO would invade neutral countries to get at the USSR. Stalin would also withdraw the Russian troops from those zones, however that fell flat, and however you look at it, Stalin tried to make a point by isolating West Berlin. That didn't work but it did mean the Iron Curtain was inevitable. Stalin did want his protection, as you say.
Ian wrote: "Mis, what you have to recognise is that if Russia was not "the evil opponent" there would be no point in having NATO and the US military Industrial complex would have no real arms sales. Firing workers in these huge factories is not exactly a winning electoral strategy." Yep. Also, constructing an opponent, big, dark and dangerous one, is a paying strategy: - you can scare electorate into submission and opponents into not being very on the same team as you,
- you can siphone off any amounts of state money to fund even the most ridiculous things, like The Men Who Stare at Goats and even more...
A lot of interesting things, all in the name of conquering Kievan Rus, then Russia, then commies, then again Russia...
Ian wrote: "In your list of wars, you appear to have forgotten the Crimean war1853-1856, yep and a bunch of other ones, too. But this one was in part Russia's doing what with Nicholas I demanding that Christian Orthodoxes of the Ottomans be allowed being under his protectorate and doing some unwieldy dyplomatics. Then again, the role of Church was a lot more statesy than today so we probably don't get all the particulars with our secular thinking.
Papaphilly wrote: " The Soviet Union also was determined to have a ring of countries to protect it from another invasion, which started prior to WWWII, which caused the West to become uneasy."Duh, if I'm a murderer planning to attack someone and they go off to stay in some protected place I can't get into, you bet I'm gonna be uneasy about the whole setting :)
Ian wrote: "Biden and Putin are supposed to have had extensive talks. Has anyone hear an outcome? The news is strangely quiet here. " I think Biden slept well during the talks and his masters haven't yet managed to invent how to turn this around.
Ian wrote: "Russia was invaded during WW1, although arguably it was Russia's fault. The Germans were happy to eventually have peace there because of the meat grinding of the Western front. The depth of the invasion is probably not important compared with the losses of men and infrastructure. "Arguably, yes, they did have weaker allies than would've been useful for them. Still, the Black Sea outposts were under attack by the Ottomans first, before Russia started doing anything in that region.Also, having a revolution destroy Russia as a state was an admittedly excellent move from its opponents since the 1st thing the commies did was waving a white flag out of WW1, losing a bunch of territories by that and getting the Civil War on.
Papaphilly wrote: "Maybe you should read the history of why the Soviet Union took Eastern Europe and created the iron curtain. It was directly tied to the two invasions. "
The Soviet Union took Eastern Europe? Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria were part of a bunch of dyplomatic treaties but pretty much not taken. Or what did you mean?
Papaphilly wrote: "As for WWI, I do not remember Russia being invaded and being pretty much left alone after they collapsed upon themselves and started their revolution. "
Well, it was. Crimea (yes, it was Russian then like at all other points in time, no Ukraine getting greedy about it yet), Black Sea, Caucasus.
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "..Did you know where Lenin and the rest of the crazy bunch studied their ideology? In Geneva, Zurich, Stuttgart, Kuokkala, Helsingfors, London, Paris, Lozanne, Capri, Berlin, Copenhagen, Krakow, Munich, Vienna, Montreux. Basel… You can look up his diaries and you will be surprised at how little time he actually spent in Russia before the revolution. Now, who funded all that traipsing around? ‘Poor workers’ and ‘oppressed labourers’ and ‘bored bourjoisie/nobility’?..."Funny you disown the revolution and blame it on foreigners. I was proud of it.
Unfortunately, and that's what I despise till today - these parrots always borrowed everything foreign. Peter the Great changed everything as he saw in Holland and elsewhere. Reading Tolstoy you understand that the clowns called nobility spoke French btw themselves lest they be associated with dirty laymen. And this continues till today with all those who can afford send their kids to study abroad and keep their money there, follow stupid fancy brands and speak about weekends in Europe. At least the vaccines on the offer are local :)
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "Poland... What do you suggest the USSR did instead of joining the skirmish? Any ideas?..."Pshhh, I see you've done some homework in the meantime :)
Could've not attacked it for the starter .................
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "Nik wrote: "Because countries want them, they come invited. I'm sure Poles, Czechs and other believe it's the best decision they made. " Do they? Do they really? Did anyone do referendums on that point? Will they still think so if shit hits the fan and nukes land in places? Which's all this warmongering and 'best decisions' are aimed at, you have to realise, don't you?..."
I'm sure of it. These countries welcomed USSR as the liberator from nazis, but soon enough as an occupier that won't leave. None of Russian neighbors feel comfy. Maybe China does and Russia feels wary about it
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "Nik wrote: "Now, Ukraine is the crossfire." Nope, it's not the crossfire, it's an unholy mess because of a bunch of thieving polititians which seem to be the only kind Ukraine has ever had. Nobod..."
That's just a smear of Ukraine, of which you likely have no idea about. You can tell how exactly free, wonderful and democratic Russia is instead. Not for Vlad and his cronies, but for an average Ruska :)
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "Don't get me wrong, I do love all the countries equally. There literally are no bad countries around...."How touching, Mis, wiped a tear even. Didn't notice Ukraine outsourced any of its problems, like you outsource the revolution. Even if it does, Russia is exempt from solving them! They can pull troops back from Eastern Ukraine and Crimea and transfer the border to control to Ukraine
Ian wrote: "Biden and Putin are supposed to have had extensive talks. Has anyone hear an outcome? The news is strangely quiet here.As to what happens if Russia does get belligerent, Ursula von der Leyen has ..."
Everyone supposedly maintained there positions: Biden refused to give Russia a veto on who joins NATO, but they set a mutual panel that would work out Russian concerns about military threats...
A mutual panel might be progress, or it might be another excuse to just insult each other. We shall see.Nik, as for Russia not leaving, as i said above I believe there was an offer on the table from Stalin but it was rejected. I have no idea what the additional conditions were. However, you must note that "the Russians did not leave" was not exactly correct. I know Czechoslovakia actually had the Czech communists take over by public acclaim. In Praha, I stayed overnight with someone who had been in the woods resisting the Nazis, and who then helped organised the communist takeover. It was then he found the realities of the communists who were not communists at all but merely dictators. Unfortunately for him he was back to the woods again. The Prague spring had given him a good apartment in Praha, so you can imagine his family were less than enthused about the invasion. You have to realize that communism was a big thing in Europe through the 1930s and i believe a number of Eastern European countries were happy to become Communist, until they found out what it involved.
Ian wrote: "i believe a number of Eastern European countries were happy to become Communist, until they found out what it involved..."Sure, local communists were backed by Russian military when necessary. No choices were left random. I've travelled excessively in Romania, Hungary, Poland, Czech and more and have friends who I maintain contact with. The attitude towards Soviets/Russians changed sharply from right after ww2 to a decade or two later... Not to the better, unfortunately
New Zealand bans smoking? https://www.theguardian.com/world/202...I guess Maoris might not feel that well in their historical habitat :)
And I feel I should stock on alcohol for some reason...
Yeah, smoking seems to have hit a nerve, particularly that it is Maori who seem to smoke the most, and some of the activists keep saing it is a violation of Te Tiriti. It is quite remarkable what they are saying are violations.However, I can assure you that they will not ban alcohol. Wine exports are too valuable, and the number thrown out of work, together with te general angriness from all and sundry would make whoever did that unelectable in the future.
I read the article, Nik, and what I see coming in New Zealand is what happened in the U.S. during prohibition: a raging black market for cigarettes, run by criminals. Government intervention of this kind is overreach, in my opinion. Kind of like government outlawing abortion before fetus viability. In that case, too, a black market would develop. In both cases, people should have the right to make their own decisions and then have to live with the health and moral consequences, not have their personal decisions dictated by government.
The problem with treating your citizens like children is that when the SHTF your citizens will be either incapable of dealing with it or else resent you with a passion.
Nik wrote: "Funny you disown the revolution and blame it on foreigners. I was proud of it." It's not a question of owning or blaming. It's a question of historical analysis. Facts speak for themselves. Even when you don’t like them.
Nik wrote: " Reading Tolstoy you understand that the clowns called nobility spoke French btw themselves" You don't have to read Tolstoy to know that French was lingua franca and was used throughout the world. Like English is today.
BTW, the 2 of us are clowns as well. You and me, we aren't talking Ukrainian now, you know?
Nik wrote: "Pshhh, I see you've done some homework in the meantime :)
Could've not attacked it for the starter ................." So, your advice is leaving it Hitler 100%. Nice advice. Nazis would've appreciated your input. Especially considering that
As a matter of fact, the USSR did not attack, precisely. They quite peacefully occupied the territories densely populated by the Russian and Ukrainian population and created the demarcation line which saved, in effect, uncountable lives. And, while almost 70 000 Polish military were killed fighting Germans, they did not fight the USSR and no people were killed by the Soviets.
Nik wrote: "I'm sure of it. These countries welcomed USSR as the liberator from the Nazis, but soon enough as an occupier that won't leave. None of Russian neighbors feel comfy. " So, they welcomed the USSR when the USSR soldiers had to die for them to live. And then, they decided to change their minds, when no more dying on the part of the USSR was needed. That's oddly opportunistic. I, personally, wouldn't case to help such self-centered neighbor.
And I definitely would've preferred for my great-grandfather to have lived instead of being killed while freeing Ukraine from the Nazis (even though he wasn't Ukrainian, per se). Yeah, countless Ukrainians would've likely perished in Nazi concentration camps, had he (and many others of red Army) not sacrificed themselves.
Nik wrote: "☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "Nik wrote: "Now, Ukraine is the crossfire." Nope, it's not the crossfire, it's an unholy mess because of a bunch of thieving polititians which seem to be the only kind Ukraine has ever had.That's just a smear of Ukraine, of which you likely have no idea about. You can tell how exactly free, wonderful and democratic Russia is instead. Not for Vlad and his cronies, but for an average Ruska." Who is Ruska? If you mean I’m Russian, I’m not. I’m probably more Ukrainian than you, even considering that I’ve got a mix of a bunch of nationalities.
So, you believe there are no thieving officials in Ukraine?
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015... ‘Welcome to Ukraine, the most corrupt nation in Europe’ Do tell that to the Guardian, LOL. Let them have a good laugh. Usually their articles are BS but sometimes they actually are spot on :)
How about having a look the mounting pile of Ukrainian public debt? https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator... How about you have a look at Ukrainian GDP, GDP per capita and the population, of course. Nice pic, huh? Goes a long way to show just how thriving Ukraine has never been.
Nik wrote: " local communists were backed by Russian military when necessary. No choices were left random. I've travelled excessively in Romania, Hungary, Poland, Czech and more and have friends who I maintain contact with. " You’re gonna be surprised but in Russia a lot of the Red Comissars were from Ukraine, Poland, etc. Like I’m saying, there was no Russian military at the time. There was USSR with all the West-backed ideology and financing they got to overturn the Russian monarchy/state.
I have known people who were there when the USSR was built. They do tell intersting stuff about the time.
Nik wrote: " Didn't notice Ukraine outsourced any of its problems, like you outsource the revolution. Even if it does, Russia is exempt from solving them!"
Well, you know about jack of history. That much everyone should notice about you.
Ukraine as a local name arose after its territories got absorbed into the newly formed Rzecz Pospolita. It was really off-center, so was called something like the ‘Edge-country’ which is what ‘Ukraine loosely means in Ukrainian/Russian/Polish. So, first Rzecz Pospolita was recruited to guard and govern.
Then Russia was recruited to be Ukraine’s bodyguard in 1654 when Ukraine got in some really hot water with Rzecz Pospolita.
All this time Ukraine had wars with guess what? Crimea and the Ottomans in various combos. Who guarded them or did diplomacy when whit really hit the fan? Rzecz Pospolita and Russia.
Nazis were accepted a lot more in Ukraine then in other USSR republics. So what? The USSR made a lot of effort to actively hide all the Shukhevichs and Baby yars other SS collab in Ukraine.
Now, Ukraine keeps outsourcing its economic and military and politic and financing and industrial troubles to NATO, to the US, to Russia… To everyone else.
That’s just how facts are standing.
Scout wrote: "I read the article, Nik, and what I see coming in New Zealand is what happened in the U.S. during prohibition: a raging black market for cigarettes, run by criminals. Government intervention of thi..."The advice that organized crime will take over cigarette distribution has already been offered to the government. Unfortunately, I rather suspect their zeal will mean they won't listen.
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "...It's not a question of owning or blaming. It's a question of historical analysis.Facts speak for themselves. Even when you don’t like them...."
Must've been drunk, but didn't notice any facts that you'd mentioned, except for casting doubt in workers and peasants funding it :)
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "...You don't have to read Tolstoy to know that French was lingua franca and was used throughout the world. Like English is today.
BTW, the 2 of us are clowns as well. You and me, we aren't talking Ukrainian now, you know?...."
Don't know about you, Ma'am, I don't speak English with my Russian speaking friends. Here it's not only for you and me, speaking Ukrainian, which you likely don't even know wouldn't be helpful. Really despise nobility and others that spoke French in Russia btw themselves..
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "...So, your advice is leaving it Hitler 100%....."
My advice is leaving Poland to Polish, not dividing it with hitler.
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "...And I definitely would've preferred for my great-grandfather to have lived instead of being killed while freeing Ukraine from the Nazis (even though he wasn't Ukrainian, per se). Yeah, countless Ukrainians would've likely perished in Nazi concentration camps, had he (and many others of red Army) not sacrificed themselves......"
Yes, many put their lives, repelling nazis, but equally Ukrainians defending Moscow or Stalingrad or whatever, as the Red Army troops were composed of all nationalities drafted or volunteered. There were no Russian troops!
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "So, you believe there are no thieving officials in Ukraine?https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015... ‘Welcome to Ukraine, the most corrupt nation in Europe’ Do tell that to the Guardian, LOL. Let them have a good laugh. Usually their articles are BS but sometimes they actually are spot on :)...."
Ukraine is thoroughly corrupted and has a lot of problems to solve, but so is and does Russia, unfortunately. There are thousands/ hundreds like this one: https://iz.ru/955018/elena-sidorenko-...
https://ria.ru/20210309/korruptsiya-1... More than 500 officials convicted for corruption in 2020 alone.
I'm not idealizing Ukraine, I'm saying none of its problems justifies any Russian military intervention.
☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "You’re gonna be surprised but in Russia a lot of the Red Comissars were from Ukraine, Poland, etc...."It's already a pattern - whatever is less than complimentary you immediately disown it :) Assume responsibility, Mis!
Nik wrote: "New Zealand bans smoking? https://www.theguardian.com/world/202...
I guess Maoris might not feel that well in thei..."
I completely agree with Scout and J on this.
NZ reminds me of Canada. In recent years, it’s regressed from being a great country and highly desirable place to live into a woke quagmire run by infantile fools. It’s a bit like America would be now without its 50% Republican population.
Mind you, most smokers won’t have any money for cigarettes before long. All of their disposable income will have to be spent on covid vaccine boosters.
Btw, for the anti-smokers amongst you, nobody has ever done anything they regret after smoking a packet of fags. Plenty have done so after drinking too much alcohol. Not encouraging smoking, just saying.
I guess Maoris might not feel that well in thei..."
I completely agree with Scout and J on this.
NZ reminds me of Canada. In recent years, it’s regressed from being a great country and highly desirable place to live into a woke quagmire run by infantile fools. It’s a bit like America would be now without its 50% Republican population.
Mind you, most smokers won’t have any money for cigarettes before long. All of their disposable income will have to be spent on covid vaccine boosters.
Btw, for the anti-smokers amongst you, nobody has ever done anything they regret after smoking a packet of fags. Plenty have done so after drinking too much alcohol. Not encouraging smoking, just saying.
Beau, the problems with the representative republic type of government is once the politicians get in they start doing things that were not on their agenda. Only too many elections here and elsewhere are not won by who has the best policy but more along the lines, "Not him!" If you don't believe me, how come Biden won?
Masks and Working from Home in the UK again, Feels like we are heading for another lockdown... Although, I hope they don't lock us again.
Nik wrote: "Must've been drunk, but didn't notice any facts that you'd mentioned, except for casting doubt in workers and peasants funding it :)" So, if tomorow a person who spent the last, I dunno, 15 years in Moscow, SPB, Tula, Novosib, Voronezh etc (add any other 10-20 places around Russia) suddenly comes to Ukraine and stages a state coup and a revolution, you won't suspect any foul play? That's what you're saying, right? (Lenin spent about 0.5 year around Russia in the last ~15 tears before and during revolution. All this time he was traipsing around various European countries. So, if he was a leader, he was a European one.
Marxist ideology is also Western in nature. Or was Marx the dearest Russian? If so, I'm not aware of that development.
So, what should I or maybe Russia own up to concerning the revolution? Duh.
To being gullible and swallowing the Western proparanda hook, line and sinker? Russia's guilty as charged but not exactly in the revolution.)
Ian wrote: "The advice that organized crime will take over cigarette distribution has already been offered to the government. Unfortunately, I rather suspect their zeal will mean they won't listen" Tobacco prohibition. Well, we haven't seen that one yet so it could get entertaining.
Nik wrote: "Yes, many put their lives, repelling nazis, but equally Ukrainians defending Moscow or Stalingrad or whatever, as the Red Army troops were composed of all nationalities drafted or volunteered. There were no Russian troops!" Anecdotally, the same greeat-grandfather was betrayed to a Nazi officer by a Ukrainian. Barely survived. Also, as you said, 'These countries welcomed USSR as the liberator from the Nazis, but soon enough as an occupier that won't leave. ' Seriously, they didn't protect their own countries/places and now you're sying they protected Moscow?
Actually, it was the Siberian fresh troops that got the tide of war turned, not Ukrainian ones that somehow never got to Moscow from the long since occupied Ukraine.
Or there's contradiction in your logic.
Nik wrote: "My advice is leaving Poland to Polish, not dividing it with hitler." How? Hitler was in Poiland by then for half of Sept and already had killed about 70 000 of their military.Any more bright historical ideas?
Nik wrote: "Ukraine is thoroughly corrupted and has a lot of problems to solve, but so is and does Russia, unfortunately" Russia is a victim of an international witch hunt, sadly. So, while corruption is rampant in Russia, it's not like Russia is in free fall. There's stuff improving all the time. In Ukraine, it's deterioration full on.
Nik wrote: "none of its problems justifies any Russian military intervention" What you're saying is it was okay for Ukraine to attack Lugansk with a military plane killing a bunch of people in the middle of their workday. Which is a military crime which's a bit worse than an intervention.
Okay, Ukraine - military crimes allowed!
Russia - military interventions not allowed.
Very logical. Amen.
BTW, have you seen Donetsk airport? It's in shambles now because Ukraine's army attacked it right away. How's destroying infrastructure okay for Ukraine but defending it not okay for Russia?
Nik wrote: "☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "You’re gonna be surprised but in Russia a lot of the Red Comissars were from Ukraine, Poland, etc...."It's already a pattern - whatever is less than complimentary you immediately disown it :) Assume responsibility, Mis" You not using facts at all and instead going about swinging emotions, placing blame and other irrelevant whatnot is the pattern I see. Not nice.
Nik wrote: "peaking Ukrainian, which you likely don't even know wouldn't be helpful. Really despise nobility and others that spoke French in Russia btw themselves.." I don't know Ukrainian? You're welcome to challenge me :)
Let's see how you fare with Ukrainian culture.
1/ What's so particular about Nechuj-Levitskiy, can you tell me?
' - Чого це ти, Мотре, сiла шити? Хiба ти не бачиш, що в печi обiд недоварений, а хата стоїть i досi неметена?
- Та вже ж бачу, не повилазило, - обiзвалася Мотря затягуючи нитку в вушко.
- Гляди лиш, щоб тобi й справдi не повилазило. Сядеш собi шити по обiдi, як упораєшся.'
Do me a favour, translate this dialogue of his :)
2/ Could you tell me what is kharakternik? Do you know any one in particular?
3/ What city in Ukraine is named after a cossak? What's so particular about this city? (3 things at least)
4/ Who was the best helper of Bohdan Khmelnitsky? What did he help him with?
5/ Which author was buried alive and what was their connection to Ukraine?
6/ Who of Ukrainians was murdered by hanging by a rib, legendarily? What were the circumstances? And what did he do while at that?
7/ What part of a cossack's attire would a head cossack look at when when deciding on the fighters' placement during a battle?
8/ 'Hівроку', 'Вирій', 'Обiрyч', 'Гузиця', 'Cуржик', 'Демісія', 'Мати зробити', 'Мати рацiю', 'Питати', 'Мpiти', 'Осокiр', 'Ha чoлi' - could you translate these words to Eng, please?
9/ Що не так зi словами 'Iжак', 'Тямний', 'Стайно', 'Опіздати', 'Голольод' та 'Гудзик'? Translate & reply, please.
10/ Which Harry Potter character has got an exclusively Ukrainian/Polish name? What is so exclusively Ukrainian/Polish about it? What does it mean in Eng?
Yay) You are welcome to answer my quesitons and ask me some tricky ones demonstrating you actually are Ukrainian.
LOL! I'm a bit excited here :) Luv thinking up Qs that a person with Ukrainian background would be highly likely to know or could just Google :).Forcing myself to stop at 10 Qs :)
Ian wrote: "I do not believe Russia would shut off gas to make a point. My comment was that Ursula von der Leyen has threatened to make it impossible for the EU to pay for it. That is the only point I was trying to make about gas..."We are in agreement. This is sabre rattling. Except the west has the upper hand and can shut down Russia very quickly. As I said, Putin has a weak hand. Russia is no longer an international power, but a regional power that tries to project.
World, Writing, Wealth
Books mentioned in this topic
1984 (other topics)Common Sense (other topics)
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (other topics)
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (other topics)
Lolita (other topics)
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Mel Brooks (other topics)Victor Davis Hanson (other topics)
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Bobby Fischer (other topics)
Jordan B. Peterson (other topics)
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I believe in earlier posts there were references to Bill Browder. He waltzed in with American money and made billions before Putin decided that while oligarchs were a pest but at least Russian, Americans doing the same thing to Russia was intolerable.
Another point is the West had a genuine reason to oppose the communist rule of the USSR. Stalin was by far a more murderous thug than Hitler and no Western country could afford to let its citizens have to endure that. Worse, there were some stupid ideological statements coming out of the USSR saying the world would be better off if it were all communist. The US was not going to stand for that.
I think another point at the time was that those in Eastern Europe had no idea of the Western mindset, which was fair because they had no information. I know the Czechs, at the time, thought the West cared about them. They were wrong. One of the most disappointing things that happened to me was on exiting from Czechoslovakia I picked up two young Czechs hitch-hiking to the border. They had a petition signed by about half a million Czechs, or so they said. It was big enough the numbers might have been correct. I agreed to try and smuggle the petition out, and I took them to the border and dropped them off a hundred meters short of the border. The net result was my car got searched because they had seen these two get out, but nothing was found. I got through the barrie4r but there was a second one and these two idiotic young Czechs were there already. To make sure I complied, they had told the Austrian border guards and now I had a real problem - I had to hand it over or be returned to Czechoslovakia. The Czechs felt so triumphant, but that petition would be handed surreptitiously back to the Czechs. Austria would n ot do anything to annoy the Russians.
I rather feel the Ukrainians now do not really understand the West. The US wants missile bases as close to Russia as it can get, but they almost certainly don't care that much about ordinary Ukrainians. I don't think they will help unless there is a real blunder here. If the Ukrainian politicians promise Putin no NATO bases and the US agrees, then Putin has no need to invade. If he did, THEN the US might well feel forced to respond because it would look as if they had been duped. The only chance of invasion, in my opinion, is if Ukraine keeps asking for NATO protection and the US does not want to start WW III unnecessarily and does not say anything one way or the other.