Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion
This topic is about
The Decameron
Old School Classics, Pre-1915
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The Decameron - Spoiler Thread, Was a Buddy Read
I never knew this book ‘s existence before this. I will be reading it. iBooks has JM Rigg’s translation, is that ok?
Hi Nidhi. Glad you will be joining us. You are free to use any translation you would like. I have ordered a copy published by Oxford World's Classics. It will arrive probably in about a week. I am looking forward.
Phil thanks for suggesting this book. My book is still in Maryland while I am in Texas. It will wend its way here soon enough, I think, hope. I too will be taking my time as I want to enjoy the read. Joining you in the read soon.
I have high hopes from this book because I am too much worried to read anything but stories, my brother is in Texas and he has to land in India on Thursday which is not easy now, I have to divert my mind....so let’s read.
Nidhi wrote: "I have high hopes from this book because I am too much worried to read anything but stories, my brother is in Texas and he has to land in India on Thursday which is not easy now, I have to divert m..."Hmmmm... don't want to be a downer but this may not be the most auspicious time to read this one, or maybe its incredibly appropriate you decide.
Its set during a plague, and a bunch of posh people have isolated themselves from the poor (except their servants of course) and entertain each other with these tales to pass that time.
Edit: I guess most of that was said in the first post... i should adopt a read first type later policy :) .
When I read the description , two things got my attention, first is it has hundred stories and some of them are Comedy. Anyways I am thankful to this buddy read.
Some of the stories are really funny, and they are all short and entertaining.
Thanks for joining me, everyone! I just finished Boccaccio's preface, which includes this quote:"For, however slight my support—or comfort, if you prefer—might be to the needy, I nevertheless feel that it should be directed where it is more in demand, for there it will be more helpful and more appreciated."
That works for me. I could use some comfort, even though I am not a woman. Boccaccio's stated audience for this book is women, whom he describes as lacking the opportunity and emotional strength to cope with the vicissitudes of life and love.
Nidhi wrote: "I never knew this book ‘s existence before this. I will be reading it. iBooks has JM Rigg’s translation, is that ok?"Here's a link to another group discussing translations: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
The Rigg translation is from 1903, so it might have an old-timey vibe to it.
Personally, I would love seeing excerpts from other translations in this discussion. Comparing translations is one of my favorite things.
I was only thinking about the Decameron this morning. I read it a couple of years ago and loved it. The stories are very varied and most of them are short and easy to read.
Wreade1872 wrote: "Hmmmm... don't want to be a downer but this may not be the most auspicious time to read this one, or maybe its incredibly appropriate you decide."I suppose we may need a trigger warning on the Intro to Day One. It includes an extended description of a city afflicted by the bubonic plague. For that matter, Day One, Story One is about a character with a fatal illness.
I am getting some strong Mark Twain irony vibes from Boccaccio. He keeps saying things like, "I don't want to burden you with disturbing material" right before launching into lengthy descriptions of the plague. He also keeps talking about women being incapable of running anything right before describing a woman formulating and executing a plan.
Here's a great website of Decameron-related information and resources: https://www.brown.edu/Departments/Ita...
Wreade1872 wrote: "Hmmmm... don't want to be a downer but this may not be the most auspicious time to read this one, or maybe its incredibly appropriate you decide.Its set during a plague, and a bunch of posh people have isolated themselves from the poor (except their servants of course) and entertain each other with these tales to pass that time.
Its set during a plague, and a bunch of posh people have isolated themselves from the poor (except their servants of course) and entertain each other with these tales to pass that time.
Edit: I guess most of that was said in the first post... i should adopt a read first type later policy :)"
Yes, that's all The Decameron is.
Because if some characters have the means to escape the Black Death but some people in reality did not, the author is therefore obligated to have their creations stay in the city and die... for no other reason than solidarity, I guess (and raging stupidity). And how dare the imaginary lives of the imaginary servants be saved, because the author should make them die of plague in plebeian solidarity like the plebs they're supposed to be...
But here's the limit: if you have imaginary characters that have the gall not to be poor, let alone the temerity to survive, the author should at least oblige them to be tortured with boredom and denied the human impulse of storytelling and the basic need for comedy and irony...
Yeah, okay.
There are few books that are more apt to read right now than The Decameron or Camus's La Peste. And if you think trigger warnings will protect you from the reality that's going to break, then you should definitely enjoy such ridiculous privileges while you still can.
Thank you Phil. I will be using the Decameron Web. I will start some of my pre-reading there too.My book is taking forever to get here, so in a day or two I will start reading online.
Phil wrote: "Nidhi wrote: "I never knew this book ‘s existence before this. I will be reading it. iBooks has JM Rigg’s translation, is that ok?"Here's a link to another group discussing translations: https://..."
Mine too. I will read from some online source as well as my book which may be here by Tuesday. Tonight I start pre-reading. And may be start online.
Just so I know how far behind I am, what day and what story are you all reading? I plan to read 3 selections a day until I get caught up.
I have just finished the Proem. Three Main Observations💮 The description of how men and women deal with sadness differently. Boccaccio describes the difference in much the same way that Anne in Persuasion by Jane Austen does.
(I will record quotes on Tuesday from both the source I am using my physical book which should be here by then.)
💮 In the proem the narrator provides his readers with extensive background information which in books contemporary to us would not likely provide. We are lucky of there is a short Introduction and a short Appendix.
💮 The medieval folk seem to have some idea of how to avoid contagion. They knew to not touch or touch things the sick touched and to practice a form of what we call social distancing. Seems they knew about social distancing. Without medical science directing such preventions, those preventions could be practiced hapazardly to the detriment of the folk and their populations.
Cynda wrote: "Just so I know how far behind I am, what day and what story are you all reading? I plan to read 3 selections a day until I get caught up."Hi, Cynda. I'm on Day One, Story 7. I'm reading about two a day.
I'm a little puzzled by the extended description of the plague. Wouldn't Boccaccio's audience already have this information?
I loved The Decameron when i read some odd 20+ years ago. I just may have to join you. I probably won't finish it by the end of April though. Other obligations (i.e. work & school). Is there a discussion schedule? Or do we just pop in?
Hi Erica. Thanks for joining us. We can benefit from your familiarity with the Decameron. . . . No discussion schedule. If you plan to join us, I will wait a day or two before continuing on with reading. Your joining in will give me an excuse to hold off on Decameron while catching up on some of my currently reading list.
Phil, I was hoping someone would ask your question. I like answering it. Literature, history, and philosophy texts have a shared history. We can see this in a variety of ways.
🐚 Texts often read by those interested in having a philosophical understanding of history, government, and/or literature include:
Common Sense by Thomas Paine,
The Declaration of Independence by Thomas Jefferson,
The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx.
🐚 In the Early Modern Period some novels were presented as being historical or true accounts.
Utopia by Thomas More.
Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift
Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Defoe
La vida de Lazarillo de Tormes by Anonymous
🐚 Comtemporary historical romances might also show a connection to a time when philsophy, history, and literature were undifferentiated.
Cynda wrote: "Hi Erica. Thanks for joining us. We can benefit from your familiarity with the Decameron. . . . No discussion schedule. If you plan to join us, I will wait a day or two before continuing on with re..."Thanks Cynda, please don't wait. I mean unless you want to. I probably won't get to read anything until after Thursday. I have to read a 6 Cantos from Book 1 of Spenser's The Faerie Queen for class.
Erica wrote: "Cynda wrote: "Hi Erica. Thanks for joining us. We can benefit from your familiarity with the Decameron. . . . No discussion schedule. If you plan to join us, I will wait a day or two before continu..."Erica, I am in a similar situation. So I am good with starting/continuing tomorrow. In the book, I will be between you and Phil for just a moment. I suspect once I start, I will enjoy the book and just may catch up somewhat with Phil in a little while.
I will only be reading from the Norton Critical Edition:
Here's that quote that reminds me of a convo just prior to the denouement in Persuasion by Jane Austen (I have recorded that quote here too.)
How Men and Women Deal with Heartbreak:
from The Author's Preface of The Decameron:
For [women], in fear and shame , conceal the hidden flames of love within their delicate breasts, a love far stronger than one which is openly expressed, as those who have felt and suffered know; and besides this, restricted by the wishes, the pleasures, and the commands of fathers, mothers, brothers, and husbands, they remain most of the time enclosed in the confines of their bedrooms where they sit in almost complete idleness, now wishing one thing and now wishing another, turning over in their minds various thoughts which cannot always be pleasant ones. And because of these thoughts, if melancholy brought on by burning desire should arise in their minds, they will be forced to suffer this serious pain unless it is replaced by other thoughts. What's more they are less able than men to bear these discomforts; this does not happen with men in love, as we can plainly see. If men are afflicted melancholy or heavy thoughts, they have many ways of alleviating or forgetting them, if they wish, they can go hawking, hunting, or fishing; they can ride, gamble, or attend to their trades. Each of these pursuits has the power, either completely or in part, to occupy a man's and to remove from it a painful thought, even if only for a brief moment; and so, in one way or another, either consolation follows or the pain becomes less.
from Chapter 23 in Persuasion by Jane Austen, just the most pithy parts that Anne Elliot says to Captain Hargrove:
We certainly do not forget you so soon as you forget us. It is perhaps our fate rather than our merit. We cannot help ourselves. We live at home, quiet, confined, and our feelings prey on us. You are forced on extertion. You have always a profession, your pursuits, business of some sort or other, to take you back into the world immediately, and continual occupation and change soon weaken impressions.Jane Austen borrows and refines Boccoccio's ideas. It is very likely that her rector father had the Decameron in his library and that young Miss Jane Austen read the book and put this author's preface in her mental files.
. . . .
I believe you capable of everthing great and good in your married lives. I believe you equal to every important extertion and to every domestic forebearance, so long as--if I may be allowed the expression, so long as you have an object. I mean while the woman you love lives, and lives for you. All the priviledge I claim for my own sex (it is not a very enviable one: you need not covet it), is that of loving longest, when existence or when hope is gone.
Been doing some prereading from my Norton Critical Edition.I found some connections with The Inferno. This quarter this group Catching Up has been reading The Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri of which Inferno is a part. So I am making a few connections--as succinctly as possible.
Article: Thomas G Bergin "An Introduction to Boccaccio"
🌸 The three big pre-Modern Italian writers--Dante, Petrach, and Boccaccio-- lived about the same time. For about 8 years they all three were living. Dante (1265-1321), Petrarch (1304-1374), and Boccaccio (1313-1375).
🌸 They were all from Florence.
🌸 They all had stepmothers.
🌸 Petrarch met met Dante when Petrarch was still child.
🌸 Boccaccio was 8 years old when Dante died. Boccaccio admired the other two.
🌸 Petrarch mentored Boccaccio, a relationship that ripened into friendship.
I like this quote by Thomas G Bergin:
Boccaccio is commonly thought of as ranking third, as far as distinction is decent among giants. Yet if he lacks the grandeur of Dante and the grace of Petrarch, it may fairly be claimed for the youngest brother that he is the most versatile and inventive of all of them.
Reading from "The Meaning of the Decameron" by Mark Musa and Peter Bondanella. (Also in my Norton Critical Edition)According to Musa and Bondanella, Boccaccio spent 9 days of storytelling on worldly issues. When gets to the 10th day, Boccaccio suddenly makes clear his intention: To find humanity's goal on Earth, in doing so, find fame. Not in some place after this life, but here on Earth.
Phil, this paragraph might answer your implied question about the women. This is paraphrase. I can write out quote if wanted. Boccaccio several times tells the reader that this book is for "idle ladies." Surely more people than just idle ladies need to know how to gain fame for good works. Perhaps the idle ladies help Boccaccio to create a slower-paced atmosphere for the short stories.
Now I am ready to start reading in earnest.
Cynda, that comparison of Bocaccio and Austen is fascinating - thanks for bringing it up!
I finished Day One. I am enjoying it a lot. I slowed down because my 8yo hijacked my ereader to access The Baby-Sitters Club.I have been browsing around in a number of places, and I notice some broad discrepancies in Decameron commentary.
1. Was Bocaccio in Florence during the plague? Most sources say his description in the Day One Intro is copied from an older source.
2. What is Dante's impact on the Decameron? Bocaccio spent large portions of his life studying the Divine Comedy. It probably inspired the numerical aspects of his book (10*10), (7+3). Did it inspire the themes as well?
3. What is the meaning behind the sequence of days? The Rebhorn translation emphasizes that generosity, fate, and intelligence are running themes through the book, and that there is a turning point around day 7 where the stories take a different direction.
4. What do the members of the "brigata" (storytellers) represent? I found this on another thread:
"The group of ten Florentine youths, known as the “brigata,” comprises seven women and three men, each of whom has an allegorical role. McWilliam writes that the women probably represent the four cardinal virtues (Prudence, Justice, Temperance, and Fortitude) and the three theological virtues (Faith, Hope, and Love) [15]. The men are the three could represent the tripartite division of the soul into Reason, Anger, and Lust. The author writes in the Introduction that he has withheld the true names of the members of the brigata, because he doesn’t want them to “feel embarrassed, at any time in the future, on account of the ensuing stories, all of which they either listened to or narrated themselves [16]. The translations of the Italian names of the members of the Brigata, with their possible allegorical roles, is as follows [17]:
Pampinea-full of vigor (Prudence) Fiammetta-little flame (Temperance) Filomena-the beloved, or lover of song (Fortitude) Emilia-she who allures (Faith) Elissa-an Italian variant on Dido (Hope) Neifile-newly enamored, possibly a reference to the dolce stil novo and Dante (Charity) Lauretta-a diminutive of Petrach’s Laura (Justice) Panfilo-all-loving (Reason) Filostrato- defeated by love (Anger) Dioneo-an italianized version of Dionysus (Lust)"https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
All of these questions get different answers depending on where you look.
Phil1. about Question 2.
According to what I'm reading in the Norton, the number of levels was borrowed to apply to days, yet . . . . In the Inferno in level 10, the most severe punishment was inflicted. In the Decameron on the 10th day, the most important goal is described. Just as the physical hell comes to a point, so does the storytelling in the Decameron.
2. about Question 3.
You might be interested in what I wrote in Message 27.
Yeah, I am content to focus on the Norton. After reading some Aristotle and Dante within the last 12 months, I have learned ny lesson: If I want to get through a literary giant's work, I must limit how much outside information to gather. Otherwise I could gather until I became unsure in how to proceed and become plain disgusted by the effort. This is me sharing my experience, hoping to help you avoid precipices I have stood close to, too close to.
Is anyone else reading and enjoying?
Cynda wrote: "Is anyone else reading and enjoying?"Yes to both! I'm halfway through Day 2.
I enjoy the way the stories build on each other.
Oh good. I have pretty much caught up with you Phil. I also in the 2nd day. I find that my having watched older movies where physical humor was used and wyere ladies struggled to maintain virtue (or seemed to) makes all the difference. When I think oh yawn~yawn, I remember to imagine the old black and white movies. Then I find myself back to smiling and sometimes Iaughing.
What is working for you Phil--or anyone else--to find the humor?
Cynda wrote: "What is working for you Phil--or anyone else--to find the humor?"The stories are very accessible. There is often a wad of Italian history and politics at the beginning, but you don't need to grasp much of it in order to enjoy the stories. The characters are pretty broad and easy to understand.
Some stories are definitely humorous- such as the story about the monk in Day One. Others are more interesting than funny.
Story 7 in Day 2 is much like pre-Code Hollywood. Raucous.It would have helped to see more of the historical references if the Norton I am using as a study guide also had included more of the stories. It has only 21 of 100 stories. So the informative footnotes can help me with only 21% of the stories. Should I reread Decameron, I will try the Oxford World Classics edition to see if I might have better luck. (I am using also an ebook on Hoopla.)
That I recently read the Inferno helps me to recognize names like Frederick II which I now know is of questionable/evil character. Also helps me understand the judgements of character that the storytellers would have been familiar with, judgements they may have been making or challenging.
I am not this far in my reread, but when I was in college Fun Fact: In 2017 there was a movie released called The Little Hours which is loosely based on those two stories. It was crap, but it was entertaining.
Here's the trailer. It's on Netflix.
https://youtu.be/o-q5iROzPNY
Yep it does like like delightful total trash or totally delightful trash. Either way I will watch it on Netflix. Thanks for sharing.
I’m glad to see I’m not the only one with an impulse to read The Decameron at this time! It has been interesting to read background information and connections with other authors — thank you! I got the McWilliam (Penguin) translation and will be starting it shortly.
More the merrier, Erin. Welcome!
Reading Day 4, Second Story.Quote:
He who is wicked and thought to be good/Can do lots of evil not being understood.I am reminded of Mary Crawford in Mansfield Park by Jane Austen. But she is only and unintentionally wicked. Who else in literature would better fit this description?
Cynda wrote: "More the merrier, Erin. Welcome!"Thank you! =)
Cynda wrote: "Reading Day 4, Second Story.
Quote:
He who is wicked and thought to be good/Can do lots of evil not being understood. I am reminded of Mary Crawford in Mansfield Park..."
Or Mr. Wickham from Pride and Prejudice!
Anyone still reading?I put the book down for a few days. I finished some other reading. Now I am back in Decameron. I have finished Day 4, Story 7. In Day 4, so far, I have found some unusual-to-us uses of plants. The most shocking so far: The dead lover' head gets buried in an herb pot, causing the herbs to take off and leaf like crazy. At first the burying of skull in pot felt odd, but then I realized lady love has control over herb pot unlike any other bit of earth her brothers control.
Cynda wrote: "Anyone still reading?I put the book down for a few days. I finished some other reading. Now I am back in Decameron. I have finished Day 4, Story 7. In Day 4, so far, I have found some unusual-to-u..."
I will be! Just wanted to finish a Currently-Reading first — and then I always take longer in getting to and reading books I own as there is always some library book I “need to read soon”! ^^; I will start this week... looks like there is quite a long introduction!
I would like to join you.I have just started. Seems likr a great book to read at this time. I finished The Canterbury Tales earlier this year and read this book inspired Geoffrey Chaucer. I am reading a thread which started with The Hunchback of Notre-Dame.
Really look forward to reading your notes!
I am listening to an audible.
Translated by Guido Waldman
Oh good Cosmic. Glad you are here too. I may read The Canterbury Tales next. I agree that reading these two books feels right for the time.
Phil wrote: "I am getting some strong Mark Twain irony vibes from Boccaccio. He keeps saying things like, "I don't want to burden you with disturbing material" right before launching into lengthy descriptions of the plague.."I am glad you picked up on this! Have been wanting some Mark Twain type humor and totally see the connection between the two.
This is a picture of the different viruses and a timeline. Be sure to scroll down to see the comparison:
https://specials-images.forbesimg.com...
Phil wrote: "..The Rigg translation is from 1903, so it might have an old-timey vibe to it.Sometimes i like the old translations but Rigg's was painful. I just downloaded a free version on kindle to try it out.
In the discussion about translations they didn't mention Guido Waldman, but he is listed on the Oxford Edition.mention
mention
I am really enjoying the audible version with the different characters performed by different people. mention
mention
Sometimes the satire has been lost on the religious priest culture, because that power or authority is not as prevalent today. So for me, i substitute the priest for the "scientist" or "Experts" and that rings true to modern period we live in. Science has become corrupt. And the Media is the temples or cathedrals.
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
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The Decameron (other topics)The Decameron (other topics)
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Wayne A. Rebhorn (other topics)Dante Alighieri (other topics)
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Stephen Greenblatt (other topics)
Niccolò Machiavelli (other topics)
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Cynda and I are buddy-reading it. I am a slow reader. I plan to knock out one to two stories a day, but right now I'm still wading through the various introductions and prefaces. I'm reading the Rebhorn translation.
I hope this book brings me joy. That's why I picked it.