The Decameron - Spoiler Thread, Was a Buddy Read

[Erin]

Cosmic wrote: "Phil wrote: "..The Rigg translation is from 1903, so it might have an old-timey vibe to it.

Sometimes i like the old translations but Rigg's was painful. I just downloaded a free version on kindle..."

I would suggest that it is usually not science which is corrupt, but those who misrepresent and misuse it to their own ends. Certainly, there are cases of dishonest reporting and lies, unfortunately, but more often I see a news article that makes much more extravagant claims than the actual research, no doubt to get attention, sell ads, meet their agenda, whatever. I could go on at length about what I feel are the problems with how science is funded and reported, but I do think that most peer-reviewed actual science is reporting actual findings.

Regarding translations, I’m starting the Penguin translation by G. H. McWilliam. The preface (to the second edition) seems to only be about what changes were or were not needed to the introduction and the translation itself and rather esoteric so I think I’ll skip on to the introduction itself.

[Cynda]

Cosmic I studied that pandemic timeline and numbers of infected. The value of social distancing just increased in my mind.

I know it seemed unfair and even wrong for the wealthy to leave town. The poorer had served the richer. At the time the poorer needed nursing service, the wealthy fleed to their country try homes.

But I cannot blame the wealthy. There was little anyone could do to help themselves or anyone else to recover.

[Cosmic]

Cynda wrote: "Cosmic I studied that pandemic timeline and numbers of infected. The value of social distancing just increased in my mind.

I know it seemed unfair and even wrong for the wealthy to leave town. The..."

I wonder how people are doing reading this book?

I have to admit that with all the distractions it has been a little had to focus. But I am plugging through it. On audible i am at 35 of 145. I think i am still on day 2. So i joined the group Divine Comedy + Decameron and looked through this thread to gain some insight into why this book is important.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

What are your thoughts so far?

[Cynda]

Cosmic, I read the numerology comments, the personality/character comments, and the article about the canon. I think: Hmmm how does this work? The numerology particularly caught my attention. I am largely not in agreement with that group' insistence on talking of numerlogy. The number 10 indicates the authority of God and his government on the Earth. Is this a joke Bocaccio that is making? Because the characters in this stories largely operate out of self-will, not godliness. The number 7 indicates completeness. We have 7 women storytellers who are somehow complete? The number 3 is holy. We have three men who are somehow holy? Numerlogy as a way to reach deeper meaning in Decameron does not easily work for me. I do not think it works for that group either. The meaning of the numbers seems to be imposed upon the text. The readers are striving to assign meaning and are largely unsuccessful. Few or maybe no one is in agreement with each other. Or they are just not listening. Maybe they usually do. Yet here in the thread you linked, I do not see any real listening, considering, making meaning together.

[Cynda]

Cosmic, I have read 61 of 100 stories. I am ready to start assessing what I am reading.

* I am quite satisfied with the Norton Critical Edition for standardized, reliable background information. In time I will have less and less access to these editions which are no longer in print. I have developed other ways of finding good reverence materials. Work by work I decide what I will use.

* I have developed ways of understanding texts, based on my many years of reading. I might focus on the historical background, the rhetorical aspects, the literary tradition.

Reading Decameron, I am enjoying

* Reading the folktales that Boccacio has refined and perfected.

* Seeing how a huge worldview shift is happening: From the Medieval Period where the Church ruled education, politics, and religion, people's imaginations to the earliest earliest glimmers of Early Modern Period where people of business increasingly ruled economics, education, politics, and religion. People were leaving behind their herd mentality. They were starting to think and act for themselves.

[Cosmic]

Cynda wrote: "Seeing how a huge worldview shift is happening: From the Medieval Period where the Church ruled education, politics, and religion, people's imaginations to the earliest earliest glimmers of Early Modern Period where people of business increasingly ruled economics, education, politics, and religion. People were leaving behind their herd mentality. They were starting to think and act for themselves.. ..."

Thank you for this insight. i will definitely be reading about these two periods so i can have a better understanding of the time and place these stories are told. I had not heard of the Early Modern Period, thank you!!

I have been comparing the stories to the ones that i have read in The Canterbury Tales and Tristan Shady. Written worlds apart but they seem to at least connect with the brawdy aspects of the stories.

[Cynda]

Cosmic, I so want to reread Canterbury Tales this year. I do not know that I will, but I keep trying 📚

[Cynda]

Here are two links that recently have shown up in my newsfeed.

www.timesofisrael.com/the-reaction-of...

www.bostonreview.net/arts-society/pau...

[Cosmic]

I did a buddy read. My buddy wasn't able to focus on it, but i got through the book!
Here is a link to our buddy read!

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

If you decide to read it i would be interested in listening to it again! (I am listening to audible.)

I almost gave up on the Decameron. I admit it. Got frustrated that so many of the stories were about the corruption of the church.

SO i deleted the book from my player! Then started listening to a Teaching Company series on Medieval History. Fortunately it was a chapter that for me made sense why there was all this hypocrisy in the church.

Sorry but right now i am to tired to write anymore, so i will write about it tomorrow..maybe even listen to the chapter again!

I am having a harder time with this book.

[Cosmic]

So this is what i learned, that made me change my mind about not reading Decameron:

The job of the church was to care for souls.
The pope was king in Rome. If you wanted to be powerful then, you needed to be part of the papacy. So a Bishop was like a governor of mayor position. The aristocracy wanted and clawed their way to get a position because it meant power or political favor. What it really didn't mean was looking after the souls of the people...because it was corrupt! The Pope was sometimes a paid position.

The aristocracy would give their estates to their oldest son. The other son(s) they would try to get in the monastery. {This was the part of the Hunchback of Notre Dame that I didn't understand. I didn't understand the importance about the priest family owning a mill. Or even some of the deals that were being made in secret. Or about the younger brother and how that played a part in Hugo's message.}

I learned this from:
Recorded Books:
The Medieval World 1 Professor Thomas H. Madden
Chapter 8 Separation Between Church and State.

I started at the beginning again. Sometimes i do that. Read a certain amount then go back and re-read that portion.

[Cynda]

Cosmic, all you say is correct.

I grew up Catholic/was taught Catholic worldview, have an understanding of the nature of the PreModern, have an awareness of the Reformation. I used to know these things, but all the information, facts and themes have mellowed and eased into understandings and awareness.

For me, these stories in the Decameron show

* questioning the quality of the clergy.
* questioning the power of the church
* questioning the power and righteouness of patriarchy
* exploration of a new sexual freedom
* descriptions of physical humor
* exploration of the themes of life and death
* determination to live and thrive
* use of satire (huge huge use)

As I read these stories, I delight in my understanding of

* the satirical humor about sacraments and clergy
* the theatrical humor of lost and found families and lovers
* the physical humor of escapes

Caveat. Not all the stories are funny. Thinking of the rich young woman who took an employee of her father for lover. Her father killed the lover and later her. Through the lovers being sympathetic characters and the father wronging them, the overall ideas of being against patriarchy and for relaxed sexual mores are confirmed.

As I read these stories, I remember

* Mexican movies my father watched--movies that were set in New Spain and that made fun of Church, patriarchy, sexual mores. Example: Zorro.

* All the melodramatic novels/movies about patriarchy and relaxed sexual mores. I was born during the 1960s sexual revolution, so I saw a lot of these movies. Example: Love Story.

I begin to see how important a game-changer Boccoccio was.

[Phil]

Cynda wrote: "Cosmic, all you say is correct.

I grew up Catholic/was taught Catholic worldview, have an understanding of the nature of the PreModern, have an awareness of the Reformation. I used to know these t..."

I agree with everything you're saying, and I'm having some trouble squaring it with Boccaccio's devotion to Dante, who was much more orthodox.

[Cosmic]

In the first link you gave, I think that the fact that Boccaccio was an illegitimate son of a Florentine banker, says a lot about his station in life. Why he might write such stories.

I have been thinking wonder if he wrote these stories before the plague. Then published them as if they had been something that actually took place? Making it look like all the rich were just concerned about telling stories. Great propaganda piece! Which of course this book is! Who profits from it? Who are the big losers? Why did he write it?

The reaction of the rich to bubonic plague is eerily similar to today’s pandemic

"Boccaccio was born in 1313 as the illegitimate son of a Florentine banker. A product of the middle class, he wrote, in “The Decameron,” stories about merchants and servants. This was unusual for his time, as medieval literature tended to focus on the lives of the nobility."

“The Decameron” begins with a gripping, graphic description of the Black Death, which was so virulent that a person who contracted it would die within four to seven days. Between 1347 and 1351, it killed between 40% and 50% of Europe’s population. Some of Boccaccio’s own family members died."

[Cynda]

Three Things to kinda sorta address what Phil says in message 62.

1. Historical Period of roughly 1500 to 1700 is usually called the Early Modern Period. Sometimes it is called the Late Middle Ages. Those dates compared with when Boccoccio wrote The Dameron in the 1300s indicates how far ahead in thinking was was. Boccaccio provides a literary/thought door through which the Early Moderns to walk through.

2. Petrach is considered decidedly Middle Ages. a. The new-to-Christianity idea of Limbo as described in Inferno sounds a lot like the ancient Greco-Roman afterlife. Both Elysian Fields and the Underworld where Hades ruled were twlight places, not paradise and not hell. b. Petrarch did come up with the idea of Purgatory. Maybe to blend out the extremes of of heaven and hell, to make his writing better, smoothed out, flow. . . .I think it was a solution to writing problem, a solid piece of imagination, perhaps a brillant one.

3. Sometimes gifted writers appear out of the mists of time and place. I have heard of certain writers--Chaucer, Milton, Shakespeare--as being described as the Hand of God made Manifest. May sound a bit too poetic or extreme or maybe just possible. Who Knows how to explain the literary greats.

[Cynda]

To kinda sorta address some of what Cosmic said.

Both those articles showed up in my news feed. I am glad you found something thought-provoking. The stories in the Decameron were folktales, stories young people told each other.

About 15 or 20 years ago, long before Goodreads, I read a book about about the genesis of the stories of the Brothers Grimm. Seems the brothers recorded stories that young German women told each other as they worked. ("Work" often referred to all things sewing.) The stories were not childrens' stories. They were stories that entertained, challenged, and educated young women. These would have been young women of middle class households. Sisters, cousins, orphaned friends, all living and working together. To get an idea of the stories they told, I suggest the group of stories included in Women Who Run With the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype by Clarissa Pinkola Estés. I saw Estes at my university when I was a graduate student. She made it clear that these were closer to the folktales women told each other as life lessons. It is a book not to be read through, but read slowly and thoughtfully and reread again. I gave my copy away. I need a new one.



Just in case you're interested: I started a folktale thread here at Catching Up.

[Cosmic]

Cynda wrote: "To kinda sorta address some of what Cosmic said.

Both those articles showed up in my news feed. I am glad you found something thought-provoking. The stories in the Decameron were folktales, storie..."

I really appreciate you bringing up fairytales and how they were told. And i am familiar with Women Who Run With the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman ArchetypeClarissa Pinkola Estés. I have bought some other audiobooks or talks by her. She really shows the power of stories. I have really been deeply touched by her stories.

So you idea that that book should be read slow hit a chord with me. I decided to read a story a day. My mind can't really take 10 like our group.

I decided to also read A Journal of the Plague Year, the Medieval History lectures, and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

It gives me some time to reflect on one story at a time.

I will look for the Fairytale thread because that was on my list of challenges.

[Cynda]

Cosmic, I have a Kindle copy of A Journal of the Plague Year. Are you flexible about when you want to read? I my reading list is full until June. If you feel the need to read earlier, I do understand.

[Cosmic]

Cynda wrote: "Cosmic, I have a Kindle copy of A Journal of the Plague Year. Are you flexible about when you want to read? I my reading list is full until June. If you feel the need to read earlier, ..."

I would love to read it with you. I have read some of it but i really love doing rereads, because i get so much more out of the book the second time around.

[Cynda]

Cosmic wrote: "Cynda wrote: "Cosmic, I have a Kindle copy of A Journal of the Plague Year. Are you flexible about when you want to read? I my reading list is full until June. If you feel the need to ..."

Thank you Cosmic. When we get closer to June, I will ask for a buddy thread. Looking forward.

[Cynda]

After our talking about folktales, I looked for some of the wisdom of the stories. In Book 9, novella 9, two men seek the wisdom of Solomon. Basically: If you settle for obedience of your wife, then you beat that woman into submission, or of you seek love, give love. Funny and Wise. I just might feel compelled to reread this collection another year.

[Cosmic]

Cynda wrote: "After our talking about folktales, I looked for some of the wisdom of the stories. In Book 9, novella 9, two men seek the wisdom of Solomon. Basically: If you settle for obedience of your wife, the..."

Please send me a link to the fairytale group thread. I keep getting side track looking for it. Lol. Thank you.

[Cynda]

Cosmic wrote: "Cynda wrote: "After our talking about folktales, I looked for some of the wisdom of the stories. In Book 9, novella 9, two men seek the wisdom of Solomon. Basically: If you settle for obedience of ..."

The thread about folktales:
www.goodreads.com/topic/show/21305798....
I will link my review of the Decameron there.
Hope you will be able to post there some too.

[Cynda]

Phil wrote: "Cynda wrote: "Cosmic, all you say is correct.

I grew up Catholic/was taught Catholic worldview, have an understanding of the nature of the PreModern, have an awareness of the Reformation. I used t..."

Hi Phil. Ihave come across new information that might be of interest to you. I am currently reading The Swerve: How the World Became Modern by new historicist Stephen Greenblatt. Here's a quote from that book:

The Italians had been obsessed with book-hunting for the better part of the century, ever since the poet and scholar Petrarch brought glory on himself in 1330 by piercing together Livy's monumental History of Rome and finding forgotten masterpieces by Cicero, Propertius, and others. Petrarch's achievement had inspired others to seek out lost classics that had been lying unread, often for centuries. The recovered texts were copied, editied, commented on, and eagerly exchanged, conferring distinction on those who had found them and forming the basis for what became known as the "study of the humanities."

So Petrarch helped open the door to humanities and Boccoccio walked through that door with more ideas.

[Cosmic]

Interesting Cynda, because i was thinking these people are not as frantic as the news is about what is going on around them....i.e. The black death

I am at 15%. I haven't read a new story yet, since i started the book over again. I have enjoyed the stories a lot more.

[Cynda]

Cosmic wrote: "Interesting Cynda, because i was thinking these people are not as frantic as the news is about what is going on around them....i.e. The black death

I am at 15%. I haven't read a new story yet, sin..."

Hi Cosmic. Will you please tell me what "frantic" means in this sentence. Or maybe just more information. I would like to make sure I understand. Thanks. . . .And did you find the folktales link?

[Cosmic]

Cynda wrote: "Cosmic wrote: "Interesting Cynda, because i was thinking these people are not as frantic as the news is about what is going on around them....i.e. The black death

I am at 15%. I haven't read a new..."

frantic adjective
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fran·​tic | \ ˈfran-tik \
Definition of frantic
1: emotionally out of control
2: marked by fast and nervous, disordered, or anxiety-driven activity
made a frantic search for the lost child
frantic cries for help

These people are telling stories to distract themselves from the Plague. We are not allowed to be distracted but are Con-vinced constantly that there is a global pandemic of such enormous purportions that life can't go back to the way it was. How silly that these people were not devising a whole new system of living after the plague, but were content to tell stories that would either entertain or give lessons. They didn't have to constantly tell each other to stay home. No one wanted to leave. They had seen with their own eyes the ravages of the plague. They didn't need a pied piper to Convince them their was a deadly virus. (The plague was from a bateria infection not a virus. Viruses change and mutate. This is why they give flu shots not vaccines.)

I don't know anyone personally that has had or knows someone that has had Covid19. Other than my pet goat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNyUl...

[Cynda]

Cosmic, thank you for the explanation. Now I see why you chose the word "frantic". Yes that is a good word there.
. . . . .
You can find the link to the folktales thread in message 72.

[Cynda]

Erica wrote: "I am not this far in my reread, but when I was in college one two of my favorite stories were Day 3 Stories 1 & 2.

Fun Fact: In 2017 there was a movie released called The Little Hours which is lo..."

Erica I watched this movie a couple of days ago. Racy indeed. And only somewhat based on stories in the Decameron. A good meld of 14th and 21st centuries. Thanks for sharing.

[Cosmic]

Cynda wrote: "Cosmic, thank you for the explanation. Now I see why you chose the word "frantic". Yes that is a good word there.
. . . . .
You can find the link to the folktales thread in message 72."

I was just coming back, after fixing breakfast to ask about the thread. Thank you!

[Cynda]

Cosmic your pet goat had covid? Better now I hope.

[Cynda]

Cosmic, do I remember correctly: Did you say that you might be interested in reading historical context of Decameron? You might be interested in the humanist worldview which is the heaviest thread that runs through Decameron. To learn something manageable about the origins of humanism and the renaissance, you might beminterested in reading The Swerve: How the World Became Modern by Stephen Greenblatt. I am reading with a nonfiction group. I can possibly help you get temporary access to the private GR group. Even if not, I can suggest that you use YouTube to watch and hear Greenblatt talk about The Swerve book. If interested, you can private message me.

[Cosmic]

Cynda wrote: "Cosmic, do I remember correctly: Did you say that you might be interested in reading historical context of Decameron? You might be interested in the humanist worldview which is the heaviest thread ..."

Thank you! You have made this book and group so much more than it would have been going it alone! I didn't connect a humanist philosophy in this.

I am on the third day. Just checking in to keep up with my progress.

[Cosmic]

Cynda wrote: "Cosmic, do I remember correctly: Did you say that you might be interested in reading historical context of Decameron? You might be interested in the humanist worldview which is the heaviest thread ..."


I was listening to an interview with Stephen Greenblatt and he mentioned another book, The Cheese and the Worms: The Cosmos of a Sixteenth-Century Miller.
.
This is about a man that read a few books and came up with the chaos theory. (I simplified what maybe a bit more than that). But one of the books he read was The Decameron.

[Cynda]

Thanks Cosmic. Appreciate that.

I have been reading The Swerve: How the World Became Modern , a book also by Stephen Greenblatt. I wish I had read this book as I started reading some of the giants of the Italian Renaissance: Niccolò Machiavelli, Boccaccio Giovanni, and Dante Alighieri. In The Swerve, Greenblatt describes the humanist movement, among other things. He also lists the ways the clergy members were often hypocrites.

In very simple terms humanist literature can be recognized in this way: Intead of being all holy moly and feet off the ground, the stories and their humor are earthy--life, death, food, sex. I got that clearer definition in an article in The Decameron (a Norton Critical Edition).

[Cynda]

Cosmic, we will keep this thread open for as long as you are reading. I will follow your commemts and make my own if I have think I should comment. Someone else might be a silent reader, needing the comments in this thread. Or someone might want to jump because something they find something they feel the need to comment on.

(Stephen Greenblatt I have read before. And watched vids of his on YouTube. Great historian and writer using New Historism theory. )

[Rachel]

Thanks for the Cheese and Worms suggestion- that does look really good. I read Fatal Discord last year- about the lifelong academic argument between Erasmus and Luther- also very good, also traces the shifting approaches in thought from the Middle Ages to the Renaissance. To do that, he spends a lot of time talking about Aquinas and other medieval thinkers- although now I can't remember if he specifically talks about Bocaccio.

[Cosmic]

Rachel wrote: "To do that, he spends a lot of time talking about Aquinas and other medieval thinkers- although now I can't remember if he specifically talks about Bocaccio.."

Well i was listening to Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds. I have just got to his chapter on Aquinas. He doesn't spend a lot of time talking about him. "While they (Aquinas and Albertus) paid all due attention to other branches of science, they never neglected the pursuit of the philosopher's stone and the elixir vitae."

[Luke]

Less than a week until the 2021 Decameron Buddy Read begins! Anyone have any thoughts, hopes, and other conceptualizations in the meantime? I already have a personal copy on hand, but I'm looking to snag at least one supplementary edition over the weekend whose contextual details will hopefully smooth out the ride.

[Annette]

I am overcommitted reading-wise as usual but I’d like to join in!

[Cynda]

Awww I read this book at the being of the pandemic or I would so read with you all. Enjoy!

[Luke]

Cynda wrote: "Awww I read this book at the being of the pandemic or I would so read with you all. Enjoy!"

Well Cynda, you're more than welcome to tune into our discussion and comment when the mood strikes you, no reading required. I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd appreciate having a seasoned veteran with us.

[Cynda]

I'd like that, Aubrey! Thanks.

[Natalie]

Is there a translation that people like best? I did a little research but didn’t settle on anything.

[Natalie]

Thanks Matt!

[Cynda]

8 read from two sources. One better, one worse.

Better: the Oxford edition which contains the best stories of the Decameron (not all) and has extensive notes for better understanding. Easier to read and understand.

Worse: The digireads.com edition which is posted to Hoopla is not accessible. The writing style is not familiar or easy. I suggest another edition--not this one.

[Marilyn]

I am finding wildly differing page length, as in hundreds of pages. Should we be on the lookout for edited versions?

[Natalie]

Marilyn, I noticed that too. I spent some more time reading reviews and it looked like a lot said the McWilliam translation was good and unabridged. The Norton translation was supposed to be good too but it appeared that it was abridged. I ended up going with McWilliam. (Penguin) It’s coming on Monday so I guess we’ll see how it goes. I was hoping for the kindle version but it seemed like on Amazon I couldn’t get an ebook for that specific translation. Either way, I’m looking forward to reading this book! I’d never heard of it I til the group brought it up and it sounds fantastic!

[Cynda]

Marilyn wrote: "I am finding wildly differing page length, as in hundreds of pages. Should we be on the lookout for edited versions?"

Good question Marilyn. Some editions such as Penguin have the complete text with extra materials. Some editions such as Oxford have selected stories and much extra information. If you want a complete text, look for one with 100 stories.

[Luke]

Despite looking a tad scruffy and being on the mildly shorter side (just under 700 pages), my Signet Classics Musa/Bondanella translation is unabridged. I would hope that something which calls itself 'unexpurgated' on the front cover and 'complete' on the back would be so, but you never know with these things. I was amused to note that this edition includes a suggestion for conducting an abridged reading in its introductory materials. If only all editions chose to err to excess rather than the other way around.

[Annette]

Aubrey wrote: "Despite looking a tad scruffy and being on the mildly shorter side (just under 700 pages), my Signet Classics Musa/Bondanella translation is unabridged. I would hope that something which calls itse..."

I looked at that version, Aubrey, but I online couldn't tell if the Signet was unabridged or not so I ended up with the Norton kindle edition of The Decameron. It seems to have all of the stories but I'll have time to find another edition if it is missing material.