Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
Group Reads
>
The Nonesuch Oct 2019 Group Read Spoiler Thread
Hi, just to double check, if this is the spoiler thread, can we mention the unbelievable plot element which has been referred to, but not identified, in the chapter threads?I'm sort of assuming I know what it is (about children, is that it??) but don't want to say it in case I'm not supposed to!
One thing I do remember about the novel is how it deals, perhaps somewhat uniquely for GH (other than The Unknown Ajax??) with the emerging industrial classes? (I differentiate from A Civil Contract, where Jenny's father is a financier, rather than a northern industrialist).
The industrial revolution, in terms of its impact on both literature and 'posh society' tends to get a mention only from Victorian times onwards (Mrs Gaskell etc).
So I think it's interesting that GH deliberately took a close look at the 'clash of cultures' that was already developing even in Regency times.
As an aside, if anyone is interested in this period, and this setting, and these concerns ('old' society vs 'new' society), I heartily recommend the Yorkshire saga books of the late great Brenda Jagger, who tracks the emergence of the industrial classes in Yorkshire, right up to the inter-war period of the 1930s. She is a brilliant popular fiction author, and a historian friend of mine from Yorkshire says she is spot on with her analysis. BJ is a real 'keeper' for me. :)
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Hi, just to double check, if this is the spoiler thread, can we mention the unbelievable plot element which has been referred to, but not identified, in the chapter threads?I'm sort of assuming I..."
That is my unbelievable plot point, or rather Ancilla's reaction. I assume we can mention it, as most of us know the book well enough, even if not constantly re-reading it.
Another mention of the results of the Industrial Revolution is in The Toll Gate, where Jeremy Chirk was put in a mill? a mine? a manufactory? at a very young age, and is determined not to let the toll-gate keeper's son have the same fate. (My copy has temporarily disappeared: I will search all local caverns.) And, from the other side, The Unknown Ajax.
Ah, OK, so it's the bit about Waldo's 'children' then I think!Re the Toll Gate - that's one I haven't read for ages and ages, so can't think of anything in it alas!
The UA is the one where there is a hero who went to Harrow, not Eton (which is why his cousin doesn't know him??) and something to do with sovereigns? (Or am I now confusing UA and TG??)
Not to worry, I'll focus on the NS instead!!!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Ah, OK, so it's the bit about Waldo's 'children' then I think!Re the Toll Gate - that's one I haven't read for ages and ages, so can't think of anything in it alas!
The UA is the one where there..."
The Sovereigns and pound dealing are in TTG, and the Harrovian Ajax in TUA, of course. His t'other grandfather was a mill owner.
Ah, OK! Thankyou! Then TUA must be something to do with smuggling, is that it? (I really do need to read them again it seems!!!!!)
This may not be the right spot for this question, in which case please delete or divert it, but, thinking about TUA and TTG I wonder if there is a general preference amongst readers for GH Regencie novels that are 'just' romances or for those which are also 'thrillers'??I'm trying to think of all the GH novels that fall into the latter category, with a 'mystery' to solve?
Unknown Ajax
Toll Gate
Reluctant Widow
Talisman Ring (my fave!!!!!)*
Cousin Kate
????
* The Talisman Ring is one of my all time GH faves, and to this day every time I watch an episode of Poldark with someone galloping along at full tilt, usually along a cliff edge (!), I automatically think, ah ha! 'ventre at terre' again!!! :)
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Hi, just to double check, if this is the spoiler thread, can we mention the unbelievable plot element which has been referred to, but not identified, in the chapter threads?I'm sort of assuming I..."
Yes, this is the place for all Nonesuch spoilers, but if it is a spoiler from another book, please use tags :)
Beth-In-UK wrote: "This may not be the right spot for this question, in which case please delete or divert it, but, thinking about TUA and TTG I wonder if there is a general preference amongst readers for GH Regencie..."Would you like me to start a thread for you in the Heyer in General folder to discuss this?
Beth-In-UK wrote: "This may not be the right spot for this question, in which case please delete or divert it, but, thinking about TUA and TTG I wonder if there is a general preference amongst readers for GH Regencie..."Before there is a dedicated thread, I'll post 'The Quiet Gentleman' and 'Regency Buck' (although the latter tends to have the mystery as an awkward extra).
I tend to like the ones with thriller or political elements, as well as the ones that acknowledge the existence of different classes (such as The Nonesuch, The Foundling, and Arabella). I hope these general-characteristics remarks don't constitute spoilers.
I also enjoy the ones with a mystery attached although my current favourite is A Civil Contract which does not. I have read and re-read GH over and over. I use them as anti-depressants! You cannot stay depressed or angry while reading her. I understand that Stephen Fry also uses her to lift his mood.
that's interesting about Stephen Fry. I finished the book and will have lots more to say very soon. ;-)
For example, I think that GH really likes "Corinthians" best of all the male types she writes about, what do you think?
Critterbee, thank you - I'll give it a go!Abigail, sadly, I probably prefer the ones where grim social reality doesn't intrude! Too upsetting. (Think the little chimney sweep boy that one of the heroine's rescues, etc). Like Margeret, I read GH to be cheered up, not reminded of dreadful things that yes, may not be happening in the developed world still (mostly!), but which are all too prevalent in the poorer parts of this sad earth...
Obviously we're going to come across one of the grimmest aspects of Regency society, the orphans, in the Nonsuch.
Jackie, without thinking about it too much, I'd probably agree with you! I wonder if there are any novels where a Corinthian character is not 'valued' in some way? If we look at the Dandies, it's not uncommon for a dandy character to be a bit of a figure of fun??I would think that most heroines, given a choice of Dandy or Corinthian, would opt for the latter? (Better muscle tone! :) )
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Hi, just to double check, if this is the spoiler thread, can we mention the unbelievable plot element which has been referred to, but not identified, in the chapter threads?I'm sort of assuming I..."
I've just looked this series up Beth and I think it's definitely something I'd enjoy. Thanks for putting it forward.
All right, I'll admit it...I don't really like Waldo. I should, because he is so nice at times, but I just don't find him appealing. I am thinking that Ancilla could do better, but she seems happy with him. so... And I know she is seen as old and/or on the shelf, and she will have to work really hard if she doesn't marry, but is it worth losing your independence if you aren't totally enamored of a marriage partner? Maybe because it was safer to be married, or more financial stability and less worry about continuously finding jobs as your charges outgrew need for a governess.
interesting, Critterbee, why don't you like him? I think both he and Ancilla are not the most exciting characters: both are calm, cool, dignified, practical, and seem to have a very mild sense of humor. Decent people, but not wildly fun. Maybe this isn't one of my favorites?but, what's not to like?
and Ancilla is enamored I have no doubt - she is immediately seeing her "ideal". I think it's his manly muscles and those tight breeches...;-)
It might be that he is too aggressively masculine and thrusting...Maybe it will become clearer as I reread - but I suspect it might be that I find him a bit condescending? It will be interesting for me to read it with the view to seeing why I don't love him.
Sir Waldo doesn't do it for me either - I think because there is nothing that makes him unique? He is the standard rich/well bred/Corinthian, and the only thing that could make him interesting is his philanthropy. Yet this is due to following the family tradition, not a particular interest/passion of his. Compare it to Arabella, where she genuinely feels the injustices of the world.Ancilla is OK, but again, nothing that sets her character alight.
And then the relationship between them never really seems to get going, we are told it does, rather than seeing it.
Overall, entertaining enough for a slow afternoon, but not one I'll reread that often. There are some GHs I can reread and reread, even though I know them off by heart. This is one to reread after a few years when I have forgotten the details, so it will hold my attention as I find out what happens all over again.
I've just read their first encounter, and I would agree it is quite guarded - no 'coup de foudre' for either of them! I think GH is honest about typical male reaction, that while Ancilla basically 'fancies' him from the off, he doesn't return that, but, on the other hand, her big big plus point is that she IS 'cool' and not all over him like other females, and that he maybe sees something of his own reserve in her? That 'cool good-breeding' or whatever?If opposites attract, so do those who are similar??
As for his philanthropy, I'm not so sure it is just because it is a tradition, more that his father had taught him to not sit on his own wealth, but have a sense of responsibility towards those less fortunate? His father died when he was young, we know, so perhaps he is 'honouring' his father in some respect?
I think it's fairly safe to say that there was a degree of a culture of 'noblesse oblige', and that whether or not it was more honoured in the breach than the observance (!), there were (and still are - even Carnegie and Bill Gates etc!) rich folk who do try and not just 'take' but 'give back' as well.
Yes, we are going to wade into very tricky issues of 'is it morally OK to be richer than someone else' (etc!)( (property is theft?!!!!!), but I would say that even if Waldo is not passionate about what he does philanthropically, it can still reflect not just his own decency as a human being, but deeply held principles instilled by a father he loved, and lost too young??
From my memory (I don't have a copy right now) he says this to Ancilla - he is following his family tradition. Not that he disagrees with it, but that it isn't something that is a burning issue in the way it is for Arabella. Of course, as a wealthy man it is a lot easier for him to indulge his interest, whereas for her there is a feeling of helplessness as a penniless girl.But Waldo never reads to me as someone with that specific spark of individualism, in the way other GH heros do.
In other words, worthy but dull! I would probably like him in real life, but not in a novel...
Not as a romantic hero, for me at least, but a good friend to have, for sure.
I'll stand up for Waldo. He is thoughtful and observant of others' feelings. He tones down his style so as not to stand out like a London swell when's he comes into a rural community. He's kind to the servants and tactful in providing for their old age in a way that spares their feelings. He's always helping smooth out social situations and manages to appear pleased in inferior company. There are few people of any breeding in the community, but nobody complains that he acts superior and looks down his nose at them, because he doesn't. He's kind to kids. He is a gentleman, through and through.I don't favor alpha males who run around being headstrong and domineering; considerate persons like Waldo would be much more comfortable to be around.
All that said, Heyer could have worked harder at showing us the meeting of minds at the back of his and Ancilla's attraction. Too many of their conversations revolve around the problems caused by Tiffany, not enough are simply exchanges between them where they reveal their selves.
As for Ancilla, there's a contradiction at the heart of her nature that doesn't fully reconcile in my mind. She is way more sophisticated than those around her but is supposed to be too unsophisticated to understand the difference between the true Corinthians and the peep o' day boys. She had a London season in which she moved in high enough circles to attend Almack's and be presented at Court! Perhaps Sir Waldo was secretive enough about his philanthropy that she hadn't heard about it, but she must have seen or heard enough to be aware of the differences between him and Bernard Trent. And Heyer doesn't really introduce Ancilla's family's "straitlaced" views till near the end instead of setting them up from the start (and those straitlaced views are inconsistent with her rather amoral ways of managing Tiffany). I know Heyer didn't revise much, but she should have gone back and built that context better.
Abigail wrote: "I know Heyer didn't revise much, but she should have gone back and built that context better."Abigail--you hit the nail on the head re: Ancilla and the Big Mis. It always bugged me because it seemed so unlikely.
Heyer never let her books be edited by others and I sometimes feel that she did not even edit them herself! This bit with Ancilla is a prime example...
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Abigail wrote: "I know Heyer didn't revise much, but she should have gone back and built that context better."Abigail--you hit the nail on the head re: Ancilla and the Big Mis. It always bugged m..."
The lack of editing must also explain the difficulty over Laurie's age, which seems to mean that Waldo wrote him off as ruined by the age of 16. Her usually sure hand in bringing the written characters up to their required plot marks seems to fail here.
Hmm, the not being edited once you are too famous and lucrative to let editors muck about with your precious text is not a good sign! It still goes on - editors must be itching to go to town on early chapters of The Philosopher's Stone....J K Rowling hopelessly 'overwrote' to my mind. Cut for pace!
What little I know of GH (I think I probably read the Jane Aiken Hodge bio decades ago??), she constantly railed at the 'cheap immitators' and I am sure she had cause to do so. But sometimes I do feel her texts 'go on a bit'!
This isn't the place for this discussion, I know, but she does seem to vary between 'shorter books' and 'longer books' throughout her writing career? I know she wrote two a year, which is a punishing schedule!! So I guess I would opt for 'quantity' and make do with a bit less 'quality'.....such as the bit about Laurie's age etc etc.
Isn't the point about Waldo that he is actually much 'better' than his 'image' would indicate? His image is that of a bruising alpha male, but in fact he is thoughtful, mature, sensitive, supportive, etc etc etc.....all signs of a highly developed beta (I do hate the crude and most unfair categorisation - it's the same with extrovert and introvert....the latter are despised by the former, and it's the former who write the articles about how neurotic and pathetic introverts must be because they don't go on about themselves all the time the way the extroverts do!!!!!!)Waldo does seem to be exceptionally sensitive (as in, picks up on) all the nuances of relationships, and how supportive he is where there is true affection/love.....eg, he knows Lady Lindeth will fret over her 'chick' (not surprisingly, he is both young, good looking, rich, fatherless and, as a young man, very vulnerable to exploitation)(I'm assuming he escapes the ghastly Tiffany, but think of Jane Austen's rather similar Edward Ferrars, who as a youth was vulnerable to the scheming and manipulative and ruthless Lucy!). But he supports Julian's mother because she is wise enough ,and brave enough, to let her chick off the rein......she is not 'clingy' like a 'bad mother' would be....
Re: Laurie's age--Well, we know Waldo is 35, Ancilla is 26 and Julian is 'of age'--so let's say 21 or 22. Laurie is between Waldo and Julian in age, and in Ch 1 he's described as several years younger than Waldo--so 30-ish?
I haven't reached the part where Laurie shows up in Yorkshire--and I can't remember any particulars--it has been too long since I last read this.
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Re: Laurie's age--Well, we know Waldo is 35, Ancilla is 26 and Julian is 'of age'--so let's say 21 or 22. Laurie is between Waldo and Julian in age, and in Ch 1 he's described as several years you..."
Julian is three years Laurie's junior - so if Julian is just 21, Laurie is 24, and when Julian was starting at Harrow, Laurie was presumably still a schoolboy.
Maybe I read it wrong but I always thought they were totally in love with each other in a quiet mature way.
Finished. Still 4★ The main reason was Rosina's plot point. GH tried hard to sell it, but the Big Misunderstanding didn't convince me.
It was odd that Waldo was such a big philanthropist, but still quite a snob regarding Mrs Underhill.
Found interesting - Courtney's character development. He seemed to mature a lot as the story went on. Yes, he had that ill-judged accident, but he is still an inexperienced driver.
Laurie's character development gives me hope for his future.
I liked Ancilla this time. I liked Waldo but he is bland.
I used this currency converter. http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cu...This was no trifling sum that Laurie wanted to borrow - £287,152.00 in 2017 money
A coronetcy would be £43,072.80
Ancilla was being paid £8,614.56
She said a governess would normally be paid £1,378.33. Wow. That really was a pittance.
Julian is 23, I believe, which would make Laurence 27.My sense is that Waldo was unhappy with Mrs. Underwood's vulgarity only because Ancilla was subordinate to her and he disliked having her have to be submissive to her social inferior, not because he was bothered by Mrs. Underwood for her own sake. He was always very courteous and respectful with her.
I liked Waldo but he is bland.That is what I was trying (unsuccessfully!) to find the words for!
Ancilla was being paid £8,614.56. She said a governess would normally be paid £1,378.33. Wow. That really was a pittance.
Agreed! Though with full board provided, to be fair, in which case Ancilla was not so badly off, with about £750 per month 'disposable income'.
All depends what the tax rate was!!!!!!! :) :)(I think -???? - actual income tax was either non-existent or quite low? I think it was originally introduced to help pay for the wars against Bonaparte, but have no idea what it was!)
(I seem to remember from my school history that later in the 19thC the Chancellor of the Exchequer - aka UK Minister of Finance - who was Gladstone at the time, kept trying to get rid of income tax, and then just as he was about to reduce it to zero another war came along - Crimean?? - and he had to put it back up again. Sadly, it has never gone away.....!)
The income tax was introduced in 1800. It was relatively low but for property owners there were many other taxes (on windows, number of servants, etc. etc.) that made overall tax burden quite high. So Ancilla would have paid little or nothing but Waldo would have paid tons.
Couldn't resist adding this quote to the GR database! :DTheir eyes met, both pairs grey, hers very cool and clear, his faintly smiling...
Abigail, I thought you'd know!! :) Thank you.Re window tax, it's still quite common in the UK to see old houses with some of the windows obviously bricked up to reduce the tax payable!
Carol, it's interesting about grey eyes and romantic novels. I don't think any hero or heroine with grey eyes is ever wildly passionate or reckless or OTT (Can one imagine (view spoiler) for example, with grey eyes?!) (hope that spoiler worked!)
Grey eyes always seem to indicate a cool temperament.....
Carol, it's interesting about grey eyes..."
Spoiler didn't work. :)
Oh, it does on my screen! It's got 'view spoiler' underlined! I wonder what I've done wrong, and what makes it different for you and for me? Ah, I see what you mean - I've just tried clicking on it, and it just says 'hide spoiler' not what the spoiler was!
Hey ho. Can I name the hero outright? He's the one that is very 'devil may care' and the son of an earlier heroine!
Ah wrote: "In other words, worthy but dull! I would probably like him in real life, but not in a novel..."Good point! I agree with you and Critterbee, Waldo is a likable, good friend but maybe not the swoony romantic leading man type.
Teresa wrote: "Maybe I read it wrong but I always thought they were totally in love with each other in a quiet mature way."Thanks for this Teresa, what I always thought, also - I’ve not finished this reread, though, I’ll see how it holds up.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Isn't the point about Waldo that he is actually much 'better' than his 'image' would indicate? His image is that of a bruising alpha male, but in fact he is thoughtful, mature, sensitive, supportiv..."Very good points, Beth, and you made me laugh with your very true extrovert/introvert analysis (I agree, hate to see betas dismissed as inferior- I’d rather have one of those than a knuckle-dragging, chest-pounding alpha male in residence!)
Abigail wrote: "I'll stand up for Waldo. He is thoughtful and observant of others' feelings. He tones down his style so as not to stand out like a London swell when's he comes into a rural community. He's kind to ..."Yes! Thanks for standing up for Waldo- now I have to go finish rereading this...🤪
Betas, for me, are more desirable mates than alphas.
But I don't find Waldo to be beta.
Uh-oh, Beth, you've only been in the group a short while and already you have me pegged as a know-it-all?? Aak!! ;-)Sorry if I come off that way. I'm writing a series of novels set in the year 1800 so I know a fair bit about a very narrow slice of time, while remaining abysmally ignorant about everything else . . .
Abigail, not at all!!!!! Maybe I'm getting confused - are you not the group member who is a financial analyst and knows all about the economics of the period? (But maybe you are AND are writing the period novels too?)So sorry re any confusion on my part - I knew there was 'someone' who would know about the income tax, but am too new to quite have everyone pegged in my head yet. Apols all round!
Good luck with your novels - it's an interesting year to pick, given that most 'Regency' novels (yes, I know yours isn't!) stick to the 'actual' Regency period 1811 through to (1824 I think?)
I have no idea what was happening in 1800 specifically.....was Boney First Consul by then (crowned in 1804 I recall), and where was the British army, still in the Low Countries? I think Nelson had won a couple of sea battles (Copenhagen, the Nile??), and the Peace of Amiens was coming in 1803, but that's about it! I must read up on it!
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Foundling (other topics)The Plain Princess (other topics)
Gone with the Wind (other topics)
Vanity Fair (other topics)
We Need to Talk About Kevin (other topics)
More...
For final thoughts, questions, and discussion.
(And possible fantasy movie casting...)