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The Nonesuch Oct 2019 Group Read Spoiler Thread
Teresa wrote: "Plus Ancilla is only waiting to get away from her!!! In the name of all that's holy why would she want that selfish madam with her when she's settling into her new life!!"Yes! Way to wreck the newly wedded bliss!
Teresa wrote: "Sometimes it doesn't matter how much someone is loved or how good your parents are, if you're selfish and self centred it will out. There isn't always an explanation, you're essentially what you ar..."I made that comparison last read - I just couldn’t help thinking of the film, and how Mammy (the older slave woman) and Scarlett’s mother used Ancilla-type tricks to appeal to S’s rather lazy conscience and get her to behave. Once those two positive influences were gone, Scarlett becomes consumed with her own needs, wants and gaining the power and money to satisfy them. Rhett Butler is the only person who can speak truth to her after that; Ashley tries, but he’s too weak (sorry, going on memory here, it’s been years since I saw the film or read the book, just my impressions).
Teresa wrote: "Sometimes it doesn't matter how much someone is loved or how good your parents are, if you're selfish and self centred it will out. There isn't always an explanation, you're essentially what you ar..."That absolutely makes sense to me, with children, all we can do is give them “roots and wings” , what they make of life is beyond our powers - we have to let go at some point, painful as it may be!
Karlyne wrote: "What would Tiffany be like if she were to lose all of her money, I wonder..."I think, like Scarlett, she’d become a survivor- I think she’d be knocked around a bit by life, since she expects bowing and scraping because of her money, and that would be gone. But she’d use her beauty and whatever cunning she has (I don’t think she’s terribly intelligent, Ancilla cleverly manipulates her, so she’d be vulnerable).
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Good point about no one actually loving Tiffany.And I'd forgotten that about Scarlett and her parents, which does raise the issue Teresa mentioned - that even with love, children can still grow u..."
Amen, sister!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I think there were two sisters EACH of whom married a duke???Later in the 19th C there was a woman who married two dukes (successively, not simultaneously!) and was known therefore as the Double ..."
😂, yes, the match-making mamas must have been gnashing their teeth!
Karlyne wrote: "Nick wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "What would Tiffany be like if she were to lose all of her money, I wonder..."She'd be a one-woman Gunning sister!"
I was thinking of Becky Sharp, too! Ambitious to t..."
Exactly- I can’t believe I forgot Becky! Probably even more accurate comparison to Tiffany.
Nick wrote: "Cindy wrote: "It reminds me of Amanda in Sprig Muslin."Oh yes, good point! Another headstrong girl determined to have her own way. Here's hoping Tiffany finds someone to love..."
That would be nice for her - she also reminds me of an Angela Thirkell character, Rose. She was a schoolmaster’s daughter, staggeringly beautiful, but dumb as a bag of hammers. Thirkell played her mostly for laughs, but toward the later novels, after WWII, she had married a strong, smart navy man, traveled the world had kids, and matured. She actually became a decent, do-gooder matron type, helping others in the village! Of course, reading it nowadays is grating, her husband clearly controlled her and kept her grounded, but after reading about her in earlier novels, it’s hard to see how else she could have thrived. Other young women had important war work like nursing, but I don’t think Rose could’ve done that...
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Yes, a broken heart (at first!) would be the making of Tiffany - discovering there is someone she can't control.She also reminds me a bit of Judith in Regency Buck. My paperback has the (extraord..."
Or as if she might bite someone!
Susan in NC wrote: "That would be nice for her - she also reminds me of an Angela Thirkell character, Rose."I thinkI've seen some of your Angela Thirkell reviews. She sounds good, I really must get around to reading something by her.
Karlyne wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Jenny wrote: "I think part of the problem with Tiffany is that there is no one person with ultimate authority over her.With her uncles having legal guardianship and Mrs Underhill (mo..."
Very good distinction - but I’d hate to put any vulnerable creature in Tiffany’s hands to “teach her”! I was thinking, maybe a kind widower with children (and a kind, loving nurse or nanny already, so they’d get the care and love every day they need), kind of like (view spoiler).
Ah wrote: "In other words, Tiffany will not be changed by loving someone, as I don't think she is capable of loving anyone.Whereas Amanda and Judith will change aspects of their behaviour because of the peo..."
What do you think would happen, though, if as I suggested above, she fell in love with a widower with children? Think she’d be capable of putting her new family’s needs first, like plotting life plans, schooling, navigating society for them to gain advantageous marriages and other connections? You know, kind of appeal to her mother lioness instincts, us against them, securing those Almack’s vouchers, getting to the right marriage settlements before the other doting mamas, etc?
I agree I think Tiffany could survive poverty, and would fight tooth and nail (and very unscrupulously!) to get back what she believed she 'deserved' in life! A definite Scarlett O'H in that way.Whether she could do for anyone else I am less sure.
On the issue of parental 'roots and wings', I'm less pessimistic - I truly believe 'the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world' (and not just mums rock cradles of course) - I do think if we teach good principles from the off (and demonstrate them in our own lives as well), we can have a permanent and enduring impact on our children, so that they are protected from 'going astray'. I don't think we can teach perfection, because we aren't perfect either, but I think sound morality - of the basic 'do your best not to hurt anyone else in this life' kind - can, and indeed, should, be both our first objective as parents, and can truly 'make' a child into a decent human being.
I am definitely a 'glass half full' person, because, quite frankly, I don't see the point of being anything else! There's quite enough 'bad stuff' going on in the world for us to add our own pessimism and fears to it!
So, in that sense, I do think Tiffany - like all human beings - has the ability to 'see the light' of decent humane behaviour, but she will need help and a lot of 'incentive' (of both the positive and negative kind I suspect!). It would be a tough assignment to 'improve' her!!!!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Yes, a broken heart (at first!) would be the making of Tiffany - discovering there is someone she can't control.She also reminds me a bit of Judith in Regency Buck. My paperback has the (extraord..."
Or as if she might bite someone!
**
LOL, yes it definitely makes her sound rabid!!!!!!! :) :)
Poor Tiffany is so hard-headed that it will take something huge, as in the nature of a Damascus Road awakening, to take her out of herself. I firmly believe that it can happen, but I also know an awful lot of people who just plod along, getting tighter and tighter within themselves and making the world a more miserable place... It's the same old thing: you can't change unless you want to.
Nick wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "That would be nice for her - she also reminds me of an Angela Thirkell character, Rose."I thinkI've seen some of your Angela Thirkell reviews. She sounds good, I really must g..."
I find reading her like visiting old friends, a real old-fashioned comfort read! I like the understated humor, and there are some lovely, quirky characters and sweet, sentimental bits - of course, I’m an American! Modern British people might not like her, or find her too dated. I know some readers find some attitudes offensive, but I take any books written in the 1930s-1950s with a grain of salt! But if you do try her books, I hope you like them.
Susan in NC wrote: "I know some readers find some attitudes offensive, but I take any books written in the 1930s-1950s with a grain of salt!"I'll take risk! Honestly, I'm long passed the point in life where I can be offended by the opinions of fictional people.
Thanks, that’s what I always think - you can’t bury your head and pretend the past was some golden time when everyone was treated with love, respect and dignity!
Karlyne wrote: "Poor Tiffany is so hard-headed that it will take something huge, as in the nature of a Damascus Road awakening, to take her out of herself. I firmly believe that it can happen, but I also know an a..."Very true, I agree - I feel sorry for such people, but you can’t MAKE them change...
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I agree I think Tiffany could survive poverty, and would fight tooth and nail (and very unscrupulously!) to get back what she believed she 'deserved' in life! A definite Scarlett O'H in that way...."
I agree with you, Beth, I’m a glass half full person as well!
Nick wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "I know some readers find some attitudes offensive, but I take any books written in the 1930s-1950s with a grain of salt!"I'll take risk! Honestly, I'm long passed the point in..."
Getting offended doesn't help anybody, does it?! And, thanks to Susan and the Retro Reads group, I can second Thirkell. I loves her!
Karlyne wrote: "Nick wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "I know some readers find some attitudes offensive, but I take any books written in the 1930s-1950s with a grain of salt!"I'll take risk! Honestly, I'm long passed..."
Oh, I am glad - I don’t want to be one of those tiresome scolds who keeps pushing her favorites on her reading friends!
I love the few Angela Thirkell I've read but my library doesn't have very many of them, sadly.but they do have a lot of D.E. Stevenson so I have been reading her.
I learned about both of them on retro reads!
Jackie wrote: "I love the few Angela Thirkell I've read but my library doesn't have very many of them, sadly.but they do have a lot of D.E. Stevenson so I have been reading her.
I learned about both of them o..."
My library doesn’t have a lot either, Jackie, but I’ve been able to find used copies - D.E. Stevenson is fun, too!
I think the best case for Tiffany would be an older man who wants her money and a trophy wife, and has enough sense not to expect too much from her. He will either make sure he gives her enough compliments to keep her compliant, or turn a blind eye to her affairs once the heir is provided as long as she is discreet (and she won't want to lose her place in society by making a scandal, as long as she can get her own way on the quiet).She will enjoy queening it in London society, and her children will be cared for by nannies and governesses, the boys of course would disappear off to boarding school. Their father will make all the important decisions, and she will take all the credit and tell everyone how devoted she is to her children like so many Heyer mamas! (view spoiler)
I think Ah's suggestion is the most likely, but I would like to see Tiffany encounter her very own Rhett Butler! One who wouldn't put up with any nonsense from her!In fact, I've just thought of the perfect man for her - and match! (in both senses of the word)
How about (view spoiler)
I have to say, one of my favorite parts of this book is Tiffany's standoff with Laurie:"You don't care what becomes of me!"
"No, but I care what becomes of me," said Laurence frankly.
Some dim apprehension that she had met her match dawned on Tiffany. She regarded Laurence with a mixture of indignation and unwilling sympathy, annoyed with him for considering no interest but his own, yet perfectly able to appreciate his point of view.
I think they would/could/should be a match. Neither could put anything over on the other, and Tiffany's money would make Laurie independent of Waldo. Of course, they would require a competent staff to manage her behavior and his money, but I'm sure Waldo and Ancilla would help to ensure the right people were in place to do that.
Waldo even provides an useful demonstration in the very last scene, when he shuts Tiffany up by telling her in no uncertain terms that he is not going to put up with her nonsense, and Laurie is fervently grateful.
Elza, I agree that Laurie would certainly be good for Tiffany, and who knows, they might 'come to terms' about each other, and actually settle down to accepting that each of them is bone selfish, and that, actually, it quite suits them to be with another person just like themselves.Also, grim thought though it is, if they both were ever to teem up to achieve a common 'selfish' goal, they would be like a tank rolling over all opposition!!!!
Nick, have to say I don't see Jack as darkly as you. To me he isn't inherently cruel, just dead spoilt! (Rather as Tiffany is, in fact). He's used to being feted and courted and desired, and, a bit like a pop star, perhaps, has come to believe his own image and publicity.But they would definitely have to sincerely fall for each other for any marriage between them not to be very destructive.
I just had the same thought about Tiffany being like some of the Mama's, particularly (view spoiler)
Indeed, which is why growing old is going to be so traumatic for Tiffany unless she truly changes on the inside to have better values.
Susan in NC wrote: "What do you think would happen, though, if as I suggested above, she fell in love with a widower with children? Think she’d be capable of putting her new family’s needs first, like plotting life plans, schooling, navigating society for them to gain advantageous marriages and other connections? You know, kind of appeal to her mother lioness instincts, us against them, securing those Almack’s vouchers, getting to the right marriage settlements before the other doting mamas, etc"I don't see Tiffany sublimating her own desires in her step-children - or tolerating them stealing one ounce of an indulgent husband's attention! Tiffany reduced to the role of a matron while girls only a few years younger than she are the subject of male interest on the dance floor? It would be Scarlett in widowhood all over again...
(And I can't imagine her ever having been adored by the smaller girls at school the way Jenny tells us Julia always was...)
I can't really see Tiffany settling for satisfaction at one remove, i.e. success for a group with which she identifies herself rather than for herself personally.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I don't see Jack as darkly as you. To me he isn't inherently cruel, just dead spoilt! (Rather as Tiffany is, in fact). He's used to being feted and courted and desired, and, a bit like a pop star, perhaps, has come to believe his own image and publicity."Hmm, I like this. I'm going to try to keep it in mind in the next Cotillion read-through.
Igenlode wrote: "I can't really see Tiffany settling for satisfaction at one remove, i.e. success for a group with which she identifies herself rather than for herself personally."
I think I agree with this. Tiffany wants to be a winner. I think she'd be very happy if she could divert her energies to something that she can still win, even when she's a matron. So not beauty, and not her children's beauty. But something of her own...
Teresa wrote: "Sometimes it doesn't matter how much someone is loved or how good your parents are, if you're selfish and self centred it will out. There isn't always an explanation, you're essentially what you are..."Yes, Scarlett had tough love from Mammy and a good example from Ellen, and all that either of them ever really managed was to get her into a shell of proper behaviour on the outside... as and when she could see some advantage in it for her! As Rhett points out, the only time she feels guilty is when she's scared of God; otherwise, she really doesn't see why she shouldn't have what she wants without any stupid principles getting in the way.
(I believe Rhett also points out that Ashley is severely handicapped in trying to deal with her because he is unfortunately a man of honour, whereas he, Rhett, has no such scruples...)
Teresa wrote: "Sometimes it doesn't matter how much someone is loved or how good your parents are, if you're selfish and self centred it will out."But selfish people aren't always bad people. I think a lot of innovation, invention, commerce is done by people who selfishly want to get rich or be the best in their field. I think the real tragedy of the Tiffanys, Scarletts, and Beckys is that the only role they're allowed to play in life is 'self-denying mother and wife'. In a society that also condemns women for trying to win the game of getting married!
I can't help feeling they'd all be much better people in a world where they were allowed to express their selfishness usefully, by a career or something.
Nick, I think that if Jack is 'just spoilt', as of course, is Tiffany, they would have a chance together!Igenlode, it would be interesting to 'push' both Scarlett and Rhett to see whether, at some point, they find they do have scruples about something.....
Rhett certainly showed his 'loving side' with his daughter. Not sure Scarlett ever felt much for her, did she??
Susan in NC wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "What would Tiffany be like if she were to lose all of her money, I wonder..."But she’d use her beauty and whatever cunning she has (I don’t think she’s terribly intelligent, Ancilla cleverly manipulates her, so she’d be vulnerable)
I was trying to remember if we see any beautiful adventuresses in Heyer - the girls with beauty but no money who come to mind are all rather innocent or even dim-witted, like Belinda with her purple gown or Olivia in Cotillion(?)
Maybe Mary's sister Sophia in "Devil's Cub" would be the closest to a Tiffany-with-no-money, but she is such a background character (do we ever even see her outside Mary's memories?) that it's hard to say much about her.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Igenlode, it would be interesting to 'push' both Scarlett and Rhett to see whether, at some point, they find they do have scruples about something.....Rhett certainly showed his 'loving side' with his daughter. Not sure Scarlett ever felt much for her, did she?"
I was thinking just now about that bit towards the end of the book when Rhett makes a conscious decision to 'go respectable' for Bonny's sake; to butter up people he doesn't like and observe all the hypocrisies he despises so that his daughter won't have to be a social outcast like her parents. And Rhett surprises even himself by his choice to join the Confederate Army only at the moment when he knows they're losing.
I think he has more scruples than Scarlett has (and perhaps, being older, is basically more mature?)
I'm pretty sure one can find some scruples in Scarlett somewhere as well; she isn't entirely monochrome, just basically self-centred.
Nick wrote: " I think a lot of innovation, invention, commerce is done by people who selfishly want to get rich or be the best in their field. I think the real tragedy of the Tiffanys, Scarletts, and Beckys is that the only role they're allowed to play in life is 'self-denying mother and wife'.Scarlett probably does best in that she manages to achieve hard-headed commercial success due to the circumstances in which she is living - she brings the plantation back from financial ruin by managing it pretty much single-handed, she marries into Frank's store and gets her teeth into the accounts there, and she sees an opening in the market and sets up a successful lumber business in her own name. Before the war she would never have been allowed to do any of that (save perhaps managing a husband's plantation from behind the scenes?(
Igenlode wrote: "she brings the plantation back from financial ruin by managing it pretty much single-handed."Yes, exactly! Saving the family farm isn't something that any of her girly, feminine sisters could do!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Elza, I agree that Laurie would certainly be good for Tiffany, and who knows, they might 'come to terms' about each other, and actually settle down to accepting that each of them is bone selfish, a..."Yikes, very true!
Elza wrote: "I have to say, one of my favorite parts of this book is Tiffany's standoff with Laurie:"You don't care what becomes of me!"
"No, but I care what becomes of me," said Laurence frankly.
Some dim app..."
I could see this...good points, Elza!
Igenlode wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "What do you think would happen, though, if as I suggested above, she fell in love with a widower with children? Think she’d be capable of putting her new family’s needs first, l..."True, that’s what I was afraid of, I hate to think Tiffany (or anyone) beyond hope, but i agree with everyone’s excellent points above - she’ll need special handling! Not sure exactly who or what, though!
Nick wrote: "I think the real tragedy of the Tiffanys, Scarletts, and Beckys is that the only role they're allowed to play in life is 'self-denying mother and wife'. In a society that also condemns women for trying to win the game of getting married!I can't help feeling they'd all be much better people in a world where they were allowed to express their selfishness usefully, by a career or something.."
I completely agree! The behavior by these strong-willed women which raised so many eyebrows would have been applauded by many had they been men. Scarlett's business sense and ruthlessness, Becky Sharp's ability to manipulate and control people, Tiffany's ambition and determination--all of these qualities are considered positive traits in men.
One of the things that makes Rhett Butler such a great character is the fact that he is a feminist. He sees Scarlett's strengths and ambitions as positive things and fully supports them. He accepts her for who she is and treats her like an equal in an era when NO ONE considered women to be equal to men. Instead of being horrified or scandalized by her business schemes, he encourages them and offers advice on how to make them happen. Ugh! Just talking about this makes me mad at Scarlett all over again! How could she not realize what a treasure she had and spend her time pining for that spineless dud, Ashley?!?
Anyway, Nick, I agree that the main problem of these women is that they were just born in the wrong time. They would no doubt be CEOs of big companies today!
Cindy wrote: "Nick wrote: "I think the real tragedy of the Tiffanys, Scarletts, and Beckys is that the only role they're allowed to play in life is 'self-denying mother and wife'. In a society that also condemns..."So true - well said!
Definitely agree with the above! I'd forgotten how entrepreneurial Scarlett became! Good for her! Isn't the thing she had for Ashley because he DIDN'T love her? He was, in a way, just as Rhett was, beyond her control, and that frustrated her.
Good point about Rhett treating Scarlett as an equal in that sense.
Cindy wrote: "Nick wrote: "I think the real tragedy of the Tiffanys, Scarletts, and Beckys is that the only role they're allowed to play in life is 'self-denying mother and wife'. In a society that also condemns..."I don't really agree - in fact, they are proof that women didn't have to be the 'self-denying mother and wife'. Scarlett is perhaps a better example of this, in the way she fought to get Tara back working, and the way NONE of her relationships were based on being self-denying at all. Tiffany's interests are much more limited - but the way she aims for society stardom seems to show that she is not much interested in being a self-denying wife - and being a mother herself isn't even something she's thinking about.
Tiffany is completely self-centred. Whether, given a different upbringing, she could have overcome this, or even learned to conceal it, I don't know. I suspect it might have been difficult if not impossible; some personality traits seem to be inborn and extremely difficult to change. But I don't see Tiffany as feeling restrained or limited by any expectation that she become a loving wife and mother; she sees the role of wife as something that she can turn to her own purposes, just like anyone and anything else in her life. Except perhaps Laurie, who says openly that he's not catering to her desires!
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A disturbing thought alas!
Personally (because I'm a human optimist!), I'd like to think that love can 'grow' in Tiffany at some point, but that it would be a bumpy ride.