Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
Group Reads
>
The Nonesuch Oct 2019 Group Read Spoiler Thread
OK, ok, OK! That scene with Julian teaching Patience how to waltz was so very sweet! I loved Julian's gentleness and consideration of Patience and the Chartleys, and their laughing together. The romantical interaction between Patience's parents,
" 'It's my belief' said Mrs Chartley severely, 'that you would like to dance the waltz yourself!'
'No, no, not at my age' he said guiltily. A smile crept into his eyes. 'But if it had been in fashion when I was a young man, and not, of course, in orders, I should have danced it - and with you, my love! Would you have disliked it?'
Especially Patience's sister exuberantly encouraging her, and playing music for the practice:
"The end of it was that Julian was persuaded to give Patience her first lesson, ably assisted by Miss Jane Chartley, who not only bullied her shrinking elder sister into standing up with him, but volunteered to play the music. This she did with great aplomb, strongly marking the time, in a manner which made her startled mama wonder who had taught her to play waltzes. It was certainly not her rather prim governess."
And my heart really sank when Waldo and Ancilla were dancing the waltz, and Heyer cleverly told the story through the eyes of the censorious older women watching from the sidelines. Poor Ancilla! And being cautioned and scolded by the ladies in the neighborhood afterwards, as if it were their job! At least Mrs Underhill never berated Ancilla (but rather embarrassed her with hopeful predictions of a proposal and more.)
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Andrea - but to my mind, the very fact that Ancilla turned down 'safe but dull' suitors, and is now falling for Waldo, is testament to her 'high standards'. She wouldn't settle for less than a None..."Beth,
If you put it that way, I’d say Ancilla has as high of an opinion of herself as Lizzie Bennett! Lizzie Bennett-itis!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Andrea, yes, of course, the dastardly [spoilers removed]"I'd forgotten that, as well.
and WHO are the gray-eyed people (or others) in Tolkien? I don't remember any references to eye color at all!
I hope those horrible women regret how snotty they were to Ancilla! She'll be gracious to them, however, because that's the way she is. But they deserve a good snubbing!
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "At one point, cattier people in the neighborhood are gossiping about Waldo’s attention to the governess!"Actually, the old cats--Mrs Mickleby and her cronies--are saying that Ancilla has set her cap for Waldo! Thus intimating that he wouldn't be paying attention to her unless she was encouraging him to do so.
Heigh ho, yet another example of some sections of society blaming the woman for how the man is behaving. Sigh...
I wonder if their catty reaction is partly because they know Ancilla is 'better born' than they are, so this is their way of dissing her and taking her down a peg or two (as they see it).It's daft of them to think that Ancilla's 'setting her cap' at Waldo would actually get Waldo to pay her any attention at all if he didn't want to! He's a 'player' on the Beau Monde scene, and would have been inured to any number of society females 'setting their caps' at him. Ancilla would have had zero impact on him if he hadn't been interested in him. By the same token, for that reason, Tiffany can't make any headway with him at all - he's immune to her, and to all women 'setting their caps' at him.
I think it's good for him that Ancilla doesn't fall at his feet (yes, indeed, shades of Lizzie Bennet refusing Darcy's 'ungentlemanly' first proposal!), because for the first time in his life Waldo has to 'work' to get the woman he wants. And he knows Ancilla well enough by now to know she is not 'playing hard to get'.....her reservations are genuine, and he has to make an effort to overcome them and convince her he is right for her (as opposed to all the women previously trying to convince him they are right for him!)
I agree, the scene with Julian teaching Patience to waltz is lovely. It's so odd, isn't it, these days, to try and realise how daring the waltz was in its day....that a man actually held a woman in his arms!!!! To us, it seems so sweetly old-fashioned and romantic, not daring and dashing at all!It's very sad that the rector feels he shouldn't dance it at all, because he's in holy orders!
It reminds me of the scene which you may remember (I'm sure you all do!), that brilliantly humorous moment in GWTW when Scarlett, still in widow's weeds from her (brief!) first marriage, is at a fund raiser party, and Rhett shamelessly asks her to dance, which of course she does, scandalising everyone! (Capped only by the moment when Melanie so poignantly donates her wedding ring for the Cause....whereupon Scarlett promptly adds hers, to which Rhett caustically replies that he knows just how much it means to her.....!!!!!)
That Jane Chartley knows how to play waltzes shows that teenagers knowing more than their parents think they should is nothing new!!!! :)
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I wonder if their catty reaction is partly because they know Ancilla is 'better born' than they are, so this is their way of dissing her and taking her down a peg or two (as they see it).It's daf..."
This is definitely something to think about! Perhaps they are envious of Ancilla’s true gentility!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I agree, the scene with Julian teaching Patience to waltz is lovely. It's so odd, isn't it, these days, to try and realise how daring the waltz was in its day....that a man actually held a woman in..."That is sweet, especially having the Rector advocate for it!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "That Jane Chartley knows how to play waltzes shows that teenagers knowing more than their parents think they should is nothing new!!!! :)"Mrs Chartley is wondering where in the world Jane learned to play it!
Mod
I was referring to the larks he was noted for kicking up in his youth; a 'bit of a lad' is one out for fun and perhaps rather careless of the consequences.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Oh, and that is before we even get on to the VERY political issue that whenever new folk arrive in the UK, they are housed by the government on a basis of need. So a 'foreigner' arriving with eight..."Ouch - Methinks you’ve been reading the Daily Mail too much. These stories about so called ‘foreigners’ simply walking in to the UK with their “large families” and going to the head of the housing queue and being handed oodles of housing benefit are simply not based on facts. An examination of housing benefit recipients’ origins show that is not the case. The government doesn’t actually house anyone like that. Social Housing - what little there is of it left, is managed by local councils and housing associations, and their decisions are based on very explicit and rigid criteria such as being homeless. One can always find examples to prove a particular political standpoint but personally I don’t think it’s helpful in this instance.
Critterbee❇ wrote: "And I prefer 'Wancilla' "LOL! Yes, that's easier. Much better than Ancillaldo! (which sounds like a village in Spain.)
So, I wasn't really bothered by the issue of Patience's hair. I mean, light brown hair is still fair, right? Especially as opposed to Tiffany's raven tresses or Lizzie's red hair.But this bothered me right from the start (well, from chapter 4). Although Ancilla is predisposed to dislike this representative of a set she held in poor esteem, she can't help but feel a tug of attraction. The thought flashed into her mind that she beheld the embodiment of her ideal.
However, Waldo's reaction is very different: It was refreshing to meet a marriageable female who did not instantly exert herself to win his admiration; it might be pleasant to pursue her acquaintance; but if he were never to see her again it would not cost him any pang of regret.
But then, at the dinner part that the Underhills do not attend, he looked in vain for her, and was conscious of disappointment. He did not remember her name, but he did remember that he had been attracted by her air of cool distinction, and the smile which leaped so suddenly into her eyes. ... He would have like to have known her better, and had looked forward to meeting her.
From "I don't care if I ever see her again" to "I wish I could see her again" is a bit of a leap. There must have been some internal shift for Waldo, but Heyer doesn't tell us anything about that. Not sure if this is to show us that he really was attracted to her, even though he didn't think so, or a continuity issue.
Elza wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "And I prefer 'Wancilla' "LOL! Yes, that's easier. Much better than Ancillaldo! (which sounds like a village in Spain.)"
Peninsula Wars - The Battle of Ancillado... 😅
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: Waldo insisted on calling attention to Ancilla repeatedly at social events. Governesses were supposed to stay in the background and if Mrs Underhill had been top-lofty, things could have gone badly between Mrs Underhill and Ancilla jeopardizing her employment and favorable opinion of her employer.I think this goes to show that Waldo, despite his charity towards children, does not spend time with upper-class people who have children and governesses. ('Cause he's a jock, right? He's hanging out with the guys.)
I don't think he realizes that that he is making Ancilla the focus of unwelcome attention. He just sees that the well-bred woman he loves is not being treated the way she deserves to be treated, and he is going to remedy this.
*helping yank thread back on topic* I've always been bemused by GH's choice of Waldo and Ancilla for the hero and heroine in this book. Is there an odder choice of names anywhere in Regencyland? I did go to the Baby Name Voyager (such a fun, time-wasting website!) and typed in Waldo. Their database only goes back to the 1880s, and is only for the US, but apparently Waldo was at least somewhat popular back in the day. Ancilla doesn't show up at all.
http://www.babynamewizard.com/voyager...
Do you think GH knew Waldo means "powerful ruler" and Ancilla in Latin means "maid" or "female slave"? It seems likely to me, given how it plays into the plot.
Elza wrote: "From "I don't care if I ever see her again" to "I wish I could see her again" is a bit of a leap. There must have been some internal shift for Waldo, but Heyer doesn't tell us anything about that. Not sure if this is to show us that he really was attracted to her, even though he didn't think so, or a continuity issue...."I think at first, he was not consciously attracted to her, but after speaking with her, he found it enjoyable and wanted to learn more?
In respect of Waldo's attraction to Ancilla, I do wonder whether he'd have noticed her if he hadn't been stuck in a very restricted social circle in Yorkshire. Would he have noticed her if she'd still been in London with her aunt, or would she have merged into the crowd of other young women??
Susan, I think the problem is one of perception AND reality! So that 'irrespective' of 'reality', the perception is that penniless foreigners arrive here with all their offspring and expect us to be their promised land....(and, of course, from their point of view we ARE their promised land - any developed country is).I don't think it can be contested, though, that the more people in this country, for whatever reason (organic growth or immigration), the greater the shortage of housing (because house building is not keeping pace with population growth) and the more expensive housing becomes because of scarcity value.
Put it this way, immigration is NOT helping the housing crisis! (It's helping the national economy at large, because it's creating a plentiful supply of labour, but that benefit is not being felt by those who need decent housing already.)(including immigrants of course!) So, either we build more housing, or we restrict population growth in some way, or we just end up with more and more and more 'homeless' people, or, at the best, those who can never look to own their own homes, and who have to spend a greater and greater proportion of their income on housing, and therefore suffer 'relative impoverishment' thereby.
"I don't think he realizes that that he is making Ancilla the focus of unwelcome attention. He just sees that the well-bred woman he loves is not being treated the way she deserves to be treated, and he is going to remedy this."Yes, and of course HE knows he is going to propose to Ancilla, but she doesn't know that yet, and nor do the tabbies!
Beth-In-UK wrote: ""I don't think he realizes that that he is making Ancilla the focus of unwelcome attention. He just sees that the well-bred woman he loves is not being treated the way she deserves to be treated, a..."Whether he knew or when he knew that he wanted to propose to Ancilla, he still caused her embarrassment and made her uncomfortable and the object of terrible gossip.
If Mrs Underhill had not been of "lowly" origin, this could have been grounds for dismissal in another household. Its always the goveness' fault, as unfair as this is.
Andrea, I agree! I don't think it was Waldo's intention to embarrass Ancilla, but it could still have been disastrous. Fortunately, Ancilla is far more upset over it than Mrs. Underhill is.
Elza wrote: "Andrea, I agree! I don't think it was Waldo's intention to embarrass Ancilla, but it could still have been disastrous. Fortunately, Ancilla is far more upset over it than Mrs. Underhill is."I don't think that he technically set out to harm Ancilla, but he would not listen to her when she tired to explain her position and how it could cause a problem/difficulty because her place as governess was in the background. He didn't take anything she said under advisement.
Do you think GH knew Waldo means "powerful ruler" and Ancilla in Latin means "maid" or "female slave"? It seems likely to me, given how it plays into the plot. Tadiana, I do think it was likely - couldn't be coincidence. I'm sure she put a lot of thought into the names of her characters.
I think at first, he was not consciously attracted to her, but after speaking with her, he found it enjoyable and wanted to learn more?
(quoting Critterbee)
but when he talks to Lindeth he describes her as "remarkably good looking" doesn't he? (I can't verify the quote as I already returned my library book but something like that).
given that, I'm surprised he couldn't recall her name.
I think the root cause of his behaviour towards Ancilla socially is that he simply refuses to treat her as a lowly governess because he doesn't see her as that because of her family background.That said, I agree he did put her in real danger of dismissal.
Mrs. Underhill really was the smartest of the bunch; she knew that Waldo was going to propose marriage, and she approved of it. I think Waldo wasn't worried about Ancilla's position, because by this time, he understood Mrs. Underhill very well and knew she would never dismiss her. Besides, he was going to marry Ancilla, so that would take care of that!
As I was finishing today, I started to wonder just how many of Waldo's brats would be too many for Ancilla. Would she have forgiven him one? Or two? Her conservative principles would have been sorely tried if even one had actually existed, although I think Ancilla would have expected that "accidents" would and should be provided for. I'm guessing that a repeat offender would be off-limits to her. Once again, Heyer has given us a very different heroine from, say, Venetia.
It's interesting to speculate how common, or not, 'byblows' were amongst the upper classes. One sort of assumes, grimly, that where they took mistresses from the courtesan class (high class prostitutes), the women used some form of contraception, or abortion......??? It's obviously a dark, murky and depressing part of history, but they must have done their best to minimise having babies by their 'clients' (or protectors). That said, neither contraception was fool proof (far from it!), and both abortion and the even grimmer infanticide was illegal and a hanging offence (remember in Adam Bede, I think, George Eliot is up front that Hetty, I think it's her, gets hanged for killing, or being suspected of killing, her bastard.....). So, statistically, some of the courtesans must have had babies.....I guess if they were being kept by only one protector at any one time, they could assign paternity, but what happen to the actual children I don't know. Were they 'baby farmed', dumped in foundling hospitals....or provided for financially by the father (or mother, if she were a financially successful courtesan)????
In GH, we have in The Talisman Ring, clear citation that (view spoiler)
On the same subject, but in a slightly different context, I remember reading a book called Children of the Mist, and it referred to the illegitimate children resulting from crim cons between 'the upper classes'.....or, at least, not with courtesans or peasant women for mothers. Although one might think that quite a few of such children of adulterous relationships ended up being raised by the woman's husband, there were others who were not taken into her marital household, but baby farmed and sent away to be raised by foster parents. They might know who their parents were, and know they were both 'upper class', but because they themselves were bastards it did them no use at all - at best they were supported financially, but that was all. They were never acknowledged....they were the children in the mist.
One of the most touching and poignant scenes in Keira Knightley's The Duchess, about Georgiana Duchess of Devonshire was when she was 'sent away' to be confined of her illegitimate baby, who was then, thankfully, handed over to the baby's father's family to be raised, I think, by her lover's sister as her own?? At least Georgiana has the comfort of knowing her daughter will be loved and cherished, and with her paternal family. It's a scene to reduce one to tears when watching!
In the same vein, I read a while back that one of the Countesses of Carnavans (who own Highclere, aka Downton Abbey), in the late Victorian times, was the 'niece' of one of the Rothschilds. She inherited pots of money from him, and everyone seems to have 'known' who she 'really' was, but nothing was ever said and it was quite 'acceptable'.(They didn't even seem fazed by her being Jewish!)(But since I can't remember who her mother was, she might not have been 'eligible' to be 'actually' Jewish if her mother wasn't).I must dig out the book and find out!
Ancillado sounds like a sherry to me!!!!!! :)
It was expected of a gentleman that if he did father a bastard, he was supposed to arrange to provide for it. This is one of the ways that (view spoiler) proves he is a wrong'un.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Ancillado sounds like a sherry to me!!!!!! :)"Someone should write a creepy short story titled "The Cask of Ancillado." ;)
I don't know about mistresses in general, but certainly the Prince of Wales's mistresses had tons of children, so I doubt there was much access to any effective form of contraception.For acceptance of and ambivalence toward illegitimate children, one need not look beyond the portrayal of Harriet Smith in Emma. Her origins were freely discussed and many members of Highbury society were reluctant to consider her an equal, but nobody refused to dine at the Woodhouses' when she was welcomed as a guest there, nor were they unkind to her.
Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ wrote: "Beth-In-UK wrote: "Ancillado sounds like a sherry to me!!!!!! :)"Someone should write a creepy short story titled "The Cask of Ancillado." ;)"
Ah yes, alas I cannot tell if the story would be a fine story, why don't you come along down this dark underground tunnel with me to read it and tell me whether it has merit or not?
"why don't you come along down this dark underground tunnel with me to read it "Er, no thank you! :) :) :)
I'm always half amused half infuriated in scary films etc when, eg in Alien, everyone says 'Hey, let's all split up and go and hunt this thing down one by one in the hold!" NOOOOO - all stay on the top deck, batten down the hatches, hunker down together with all your guns, and then open the freight loading doors and let the space vacuum suck the monster OUT!!!!!
Or, the old knock on the door in the middle of the night when there is only one person inside and a storm raging ...DO NOT OPEN THAT DOOR!!!!
Grrrr!
But then, I don't watch scary films full stop. Hate them!
Abigail, yes, but then I wouldn't think that the mistress of a rich man, let alone a royal one, would actually try and avoid getting pregnant! ??? After all, once they had an (acknowledged) baby by the rich/royal guy, they were just about guaranteed a meal ticket for life.I think most of the Georgian 'Fitz's' (the illegitimate royal children) had quite 'good' lives....I seem to remember that some of the boys went into the army?? (as officers of course!).
It would make a good book just to follow the stories of all of them (perhaps it's been done!)
I always thought it a bit sad that after poor Princess Charlotte 'the Heiress of England' died so tragically, and all the elderly middle aged royal dukes had to rush off and get married to produce somehow another royal heir, that they had to abandon their long-time mistresses with whom they were living 'en famille' quite happily and cosily.....
Looking back a bit further, I wonder when having a 'royal bastard' no longer meant that you could expect him to be ennobled, as Charles II did with a good few of his (including I think, Nell Gwynne's, even though she was a commoner, unlike some of his mistresses).
Excellent point about poor Harriet Smith....that 'ambiguity' about her social position. Doesn't Emma lose interest in her when she discovers she has no 'romantic' origin, and is not the discarded offspring of a noble peer, but just of a wealthy tradesman.??That said, I get the feeling that even after Harriet has (thankfully!) married her farmer, Robert Martin, Mr Knightly will ensure that as the Martins, who are already 'going up in the world' (they own their own land, crucial for eventual 'eligibility' into the gentry within a generation or two, especially if they can add to their landholding by marriage to other yeoman farmers owning their own land), and Robert Martin is clearly an intelligent man who reads agricultural journals etc, plus that his wife has been 'groomed to gentility' by Emma etc, will be increasingly 'socially received' in the neighbourhood. (Plus Highbury already has welcomed Mr Weston, who was, I think in trade?)
Again, all indicating the subtleness and relative 'fluidity' of English society......still in full swing, of course, with education being the key.
I wonder, in a way, whether 'having a university degree' is now the modern equivalent of 'owning land' to 'ensure gentility'??!!!
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Elza wrote: "Andrea, I agree! I don't think it was Waldo's intention to embarrass Ancilla, but it could still have been disastrous. Fortunately, Ancilla is far more upset over it than Mrs. Underhil..."I always thought it's one of those things men simply don't pay attention to. In my experience women worry about what people think of them because they are more vulnerable to gossip and innuendo, while men often don't even notice. This is doubly true for a powerful man like Waldo and a woman in a powerless position like Ancilla's.
I've just read the 'Big Misunderstanding' scene, and the subsequent proposal, and I can see it's been very carefully written, so that it can be 'read' in both ways, with Julian knowing what he knows, and Ancilla believing what she believes.I find GH's language very frank for the time (when was the Nonesuch published, my paperback doesn't actually have a publication date in it - I'm assuming 1960s?), with her bluntly saying that Ancilla thinks a libertine as bad as a prostitute. (Good for her, but still pretty blunt!)
It still doesn't obviate the inherent absurdity of the idea that Waldo (or anyone really!) would have a whole clutch of bastards and dump them in a single house in Yorkshire!
To my mind it's a bit Lady Bracknell - 'To have one bastard, Sir Waldo, is forgiveable....to have a whole clutch of them is simply carelessness!'
Beth-In-UK wrote: "To my mind it's a bit Lady Bracknell - 'To have one bastard, Sir Waldo, is forgiveable....to have a whole clutch of them is simply carelessness!'"Lol, excellent!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I've just read the 'Big Misunderstanding' scene, and the subsequent proposal,"I've just listened to the 'Big Misunderstanding', and then pressed skip on the proposal :D
Finished my re-read, and after having some time to think about it, my final thoughts are that there are some lovely scenes in the book, and I like that the book was set outside of London and that some of the characters were bourgy instead of peers/ landed gentry. I didn't connect with Waldo or Ancilla, though, not completely. They are both nice.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "I've just read the 'Big Misunderstanding' scene, and the subsequent proposal, and I can see it's been very carefully written, so that it can be 'read' in both ways, with Julian knowing what he know..."Snort! Loved it!
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Foundling (other topics)The Plain Princess (other topics)
Gone with the Wind (other topics)
Vanity Fair (other topics)
We Need to Talk About Kevin (other topics)
More...
Ooh, I wonder what they are - I didn't catch them! And I prefer 'Wancilla'
:D