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The Nonesuch Oct 2019 Group Read Spoiler Thread
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Beth-In-UK
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Oct 02, 2019 04:32PM
I think with Waldo that I agree he's not a beta, or not 'pure' beta, as his sporting prowess confers alpha status on him, but his tact and sensitivity are more beta characteristics??
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Susan, I would say betas aren't inferior (by any means! Morally usually much superior!), but are probably better for marriage than a torrid fling (choose and alpha for that).One of the tropes of romantic fiction is that the hero starts as an alpha male, but ends as a beta....the journey from 'dangerous' torrid sex-object (!) to 'safe' reliable husband-and-father material.
I'm about to start listening to The Nonesuch but I'm dragging my heels as I know that that ghastly, misunderstanding through lack of communication, proposal rejection is coming up. I like Ancilla and Waldo and wish "that" didn't have to be in the story, it always puts me off wanting to revisit this Heyer title.
Ah, but just think - if characters in novels actually communicated with each other, there would be no novels!For example, if Max de Winter had just told his second wife 'I utterly loathed Rebecca you know!' .....
And if Mr Rochester had said 'I've got a mad wife in the attic....she keeps setting fire to things'.....
At least Jane Austen has Darcy regret he didn't just tell everyone 'Wickham is a bounder who tried to elope with my 15 year old sister'!
I'm not the one who's a financial analyst but happy to have been mistaken for her, as I always admire her comments and perspective.My series of novels isn't really about historical events in 1800 (perhaps most significant from Britain's perspective that year was unification with Ireland); it's more a slice-of-life thing. The stories are all set in the neighborhood of Dorking, in Surrey (pronounced "Darking" in those days, so the series is called Darking Hundred). Each book features different characters, some fictional, some real, living in the area in 1800, and their personal stories. The first, which I have completed but not yet published, is about a 12-year-old boy who becomes involved with smugglers; the second is about a very bad year in the life of novelist Fanny Burney; and so on. No romances planned, sadly, though Fanny was certainly in a loving relationship!
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Couldn't resist adding this quote to the GR database! :DTheir eyes met, both pairs grey, hers very cool and clear, his faintly smiling..."
Carol, I posted somewhere (looks like it wasn't this thread) that I was surprised we had two pairs of gray eyes and nobody had mentioned it yet.
and it's spelled gray in my book - is grey the British was to spell it?
Yup, NZ uses British spelling.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Isn't the point about Waldo that he is actually much 'better' than his 'image' would indicate? His image is that of a bruising alpha male, but in fact he is thoughtful, mature, sensitive, supportiv..."Beth, feels like post #29 was a long time ago but I am behind, LOL.
I like what you said and agree, Heyer gave us plenty of examples of what a sensitive and thoughtful man Waldo is.
Critterbee❇ wrote: "But I don't find Waldo to be beta."he is absolutely an alpha, he is physically strong and a leader among his peers.
Curious that many of you find Waldo "likeable but not that remarkable", since the very title of this novel indicates that he was regarded as a "super cool" guy. :-)I've read this book some time ago. Good, but not my favorite.
I'm going to jump on the Waldo train here, especially because he is doing something real and beneficial with his position and his wealth. He's not just a jock."This was one that seemed to me more worth the doing than any other: collecting as many of the homeless waifs you may find in any city as I could, and rearing them to become respectable citizens. ... The important thing is to enter them to the right trades -- and to take care they're not bound to bad masters."
He is doing more than just giving them a safe place to live -- he's providing vocational training and career placement.
I guess what bothered me most in this story is the way that all of Waldo's relatives despise his charity. Not one single person among them is proud of what he does, or admires his philanthropy. Every single one is puzzled, if not outright annoyed, by "Waldo's curst brats" and that leaves me both sad and angry. As if children are somehow responsible for their poverty, and unworthy of help.
(I should say that my husband worked in administration with two different faith-based children's homes, and I worked part-time with one. Those children and teenagers came from appalling conditions, endured grief and anxiety and abuse. Waldo's children surely suffered through even worse conditions, and they deserved compassion, if nothing else.)
Elza wrote: "As a contrast to Waldo, consider Mr. Beaumaris from Arabella. [spoilers removed]"Ah, but I'm sure Arabella spoiler(view spoiler)
This is probably more for the discussion after we finish the Regency reads but starting with A Civil Contract... Mild spoiler for a few of the books (view spoiler)
Re 'Grey' and 'Gray'....yes, always 'Grey' in English now. Though presumably, on the argument that American English is simply 'old' English, it used to be 'gray' in English as well??Yes, it is bad that no one really applauds Waldo's philanthropy, and they consider it an oddity in him. I think it reflects probably what was in those times a 'hardened' attitude to the poor, because there was so little hope for them! I think we have to see the UK then as a 'third world' country, and just as in third world countries today there is to our minds an extraordinary indifference to the plight of their masses (eg, India can spend money on a Space Programme while children are sleeping on the streeets!)(yes, I know there is, as Elza reminds us, still dreadful deprivation in the developed world, but it's the scale of poverty and deprivation in the third world that is the difference - here in the west 'most of us' are 'basically OK'....the opposite is true in the third world, and in the Regency world....indeed, right up to the last century really.)
I think, personally speaking, that when a problem is SO huge, we simply 'can't face it'....and so turn our backs on it.
Jackie, perhaps Waldo could be called a 'true alpha'....a strong man with a big heart. As someone said earlier - a true gentleman. :) Definitely heroic in that sense.
Abigail, that sounds like a very neat 'take' on a period! You'll certainly have to donate a complete set to Dorking library! And probably give talks on it too!!! :)Dorking is one of those places I 'vaguely know', as in, I know where it is roughly, and may well have driven through it (probably en route to Gatwick Airport!), and it's near Box Hill I think.....the whole North/South Downs and Weald is not 'my' part of the country though. it's a bit 'south' for me...I am more 'west'!
I dimly associate it with the War of the Worlds, as I think that for some rather possibly humorous reason that's where H G Wells set it? (Humorous as in Dorking seems a very odd place for Martians to want to invade!)
From what little I know about it, I assume that Waldo's family's attitude towards The Poor (even if they are children) is the norm for their time. like his cousin (George?) tells us, they won't amount to anything but thieves and he is wasting his time and money. and I wish it weren't true but there are many places in the US where it IS a third world country. and most of us are not OK, we are living one paycheck away from homelessness and/or have little to no healthcare. I am 58 and have zero saved for retirement and little hope of saving anything this year as I just found out it will take thousands of dollars to get the six fillings and a crown my Dentist told me about yesterday. and that is WITH dental insurance. :-(
so far I don't live under a bridge but that is truly possible in the future.
Jackie, what you say is so true and it's outrageous that our supposedly wealthy country allows any of its people to live without any safety net, especially when it comes to health care and housing. My heart goes out to you.Beth, I didn't know that about The War of the Worlds! You're right, Dorking sits under the shadow of Box Hill. I came to it through Jane Austen--her unfinished novel The Watsons is set in the vicinity.
Carol, very interesting point about a shift in the focus of the Regency heroes. I'll look out for that in our ongoing reading!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Susan, I would say betas aren't inferior (by any means! Morally usually much superior!), but are probably better for marriage than a torrid fling (choose and alpha for that).One of the tropes of ..."
Agreed! And when I think of betas, I think of men like my husband - definitely smart, sexy, manly, kind, decent, honorable, but not a blow hard, noisy, attention-hog male (like an alpha!) Thats just my personal way of distinguishing between the two types, I’m sure most women readers have their own criteria!
Jackie wrote: "From what little I know about it, I assume that Waldo's family's attitude towards The Poor (even if they are children) is the norm for their time. like his cousin (George?) tells us, they won't amo..."Jackie, I am so sorry!
Jackie, here in the UK a phrase has emerged over the last few years which is to call a section of the population the 'just about managing'.....they are the equivalent of yourself, I think, who are 'just' keeping their heads above water.To my mind, THE biggest and largest social problem in the UK overall is housing....we just do no have sufficient houses for the population (and the population is growing hugely, all the time - far more than we can cope with). My generation thought it 'normal' to expect to own their own house (even if that meant buying their council/state-owned rental house), and it was achievable in my day. But shortage of housing has driving up house prices so much that my son's generation hasn't a hope of buying a house (it's the deposit that is the crippling factor - the mortgage is 'no more' usually than the rent), unless the Bank of Mum and Dad forks out for the deposit. So they have become Generation Rent (which is fine when one is earning....disastrous when one reaches pensionable age.....)
I don't know if housing is as short (or expensive) in the USA - you have so much more land than we have, so perhaps it shouldn't be as bad as here?
As for healthcare, well, it does seem that the US system is utterly indefensible - highly inflated in cost, even when compared to European countries (which don't have the NHS, but are 'state insurance' so to speak). American medicine is just very, very expensive for reasons I don't understand but which do rather point towards a lucrative monopoly (plus huge bureaucratic costs because of all the multiple insurance companies).
Jackie, here in the UK a phrase has emerged over the last few years which is to call a section of the population the 'just about managing'.....they are the equivalent of yourself, I think, who are 'just' keeping their heads above water.To my mind, THE biggest and largest social problem in the UK overall is housing....we just do no have sufficient houses for the population (and the population is growing hugely, all the time - far more than we can cope with). My generation thought it 'normal' to expect to own their own house (even if that meant buying their council/state-owned rental house), and it was achievable in my day. But shortage of housing has driving up house prices so much that my son's generation hasn't a hope of buying a house (it's the deposit that is the crippling factor - the mortgage is 'no more' usually than the rent), unless the Bank of Mum and Dad forks out for the deposit. So they have become Generation Rent (which is fine when one is earning....disastrous when one reaches pensionable age.....)
I don't know if housing is as short (or expensive) in the USA - you have so much more land than we have, so perhaps it shouldn't be as bad as here?
As for healthcare, well, it does seem that the US system is utterly indefensible - highly inflated in cost, even when compared to European countries (which don't have the NHS, but are 'state insurance' so to speak). American medicine is just very, very expensive for reasons I don't understand but which do rather point towards a lucrative monopoly (plus huge bureaucratic costs because of all the multiple insurance companies).
PS Just to add, I have no idea from this side of the pond, but I wonder if private health care in Canada is anywhere near as expensive as private health care in the USA?
Canada has state-run health care. Sadly, we stand alone among developed countries with our health care "system"!As for housing, it varies hugely depending on region. The coasts are ridiculously expensive, big cities are pretty expensive. In many places housing is quite cheap but it's a challenge to get a good job near cheap housing.
Reading Beth's comment I realise the UK are the same as we are in Ireland. Housing is a huge problem here and my kids will never be able to own their own homes. Where I live in Waterford we have the highest unemployment in the country. We are also the only county that hasn't got back to what it was before the recession. My eldest girl lives in London. A year ago she looked into coming back to Dublin to live. She has a very good job in England. She would not have got anything like the salary she's earning now and said she couldn't afford the rent here. We are one of the most expensive countries in Europe to live in and Jackie you're not alone in keeping your head just above water. I know exactly what you mean.
Susan in NC wrote: "Beth-In-UK wrote: "Susan, I would say betas aren't inferior (by any means! Morally usually much superior!), but are probably better for marriage than a torrid fling (choose and alpha for that).On..."
Ah Susan, what a lovely thing to say.
I don't know if housing is as short (or expensive) in the USA - you have so much more land than we have, so perhaps it shouldn't be as bad as here? it depends very much on where you live. I am in a town in Oregon which is not as bad as a city (like Portland or, where I was living this summer, Colorado Springs) but for it's size it's very expensive.
I have to be where there is a job for me, sadly.
pretty much what Abigail said.
Susan in NC wrote: "Agreed! And when I think of betas, I think of men like my husband - definitely smart, sexy, manly, kind, decent, honorable, but not a blow hard, noisy, attention-hog male (like an alpha!) Thats just my personal way of distinguishing between the two types, I’m sure most women readers have their own criteria!..."You surely got that right, Susan!
And there is also the 'alphahole,' who goes way too alpha, doing and taking whatever he wants. These guys pop up in Heyer stories, but aren't really the heroes.
IMO, An alphahole
-wants to cage their love, thinking that that is protecting them
-orders food for others, without asking what they like/want
-thinks he knows what you want, even better than you do
-should end up groveling to make up for past behavior, but never does
-is a strong-minded leader, and always insists on their own way
-does not care how their actions affect others
"Alphahole" I love it! Those guys are usually the villains in Heyer's world. I don't care for those sorts of heroes even if they redeem themselves.
The housing issue is clearly complicated isn't it! To my mind, what is always so 'daft' is that these days, the actual locality of businesses is becoming increasingly 'irrelevant', not just because they are office-based (ie, they are not mines that have to be where the mineral deposits are, or factories that need to be where the coal to run them is etc), but because office-based work is so increasingly possible to do 'remotely' etc.Here in the UK we have loads of mostly 'old industry' areas, like the South Wales former mining villages, or similar in the North East (Tyneside etc), where there is plentiful housing stock ....but no jobs!
It seems so 'obvious' that it is far easier to move jobs to such places than to move the many, many people to the places where the jobs are, but the housing for them isn't! But it so seldom seems to happen.
What we are seeing now in the UK, especially in the South East because of the 'London magnet effect' is vast swathes of former countryside being zoned for housing, and so fields are disappearing under concrete. London has been protected by a 'Green Belt' created specifically in the last century to stop it turning into LA (!), but now developers and politicians are desperate to get it unprotected so they can build all over it.
All that said, the underlying problem remains overpopulation (and increasingly so!), and until that is addressed, and governments understand that any state should have an optimum number of people living in it (!!!!!!), and that all the people living in it should be productive (!!!!!!!!), then we will continue to opt for easy-but-dangerous policies...
Hey ho, but that's me banging on about my 'solution' to global problems!!! :)
Abigail, even though Canada has state-run health care, I'm assuming that, as in the UK, there is also a parallel private health care system?In the UK, when the health service was nationalised into the NHS after the second world war, the 'deal' the government of the day struck with the medical profession was that although they would now work for the NHS 'for their day job', they could also continue too run a 'night job' of doing private work if they wanted.
So a parallel system came into effect which works, to my mind, pretty well all told. (A bit like the parallel system of state schooling - free at the point of use, like the NHS, ie, prepaid in taxes - but parents who can afford it can opt out and send their children to private schools).
It's always interesting to look at the respective costs of medicine under the NHS (which has a publically available but not always well understood by the public set of 'fees'....eg, an X-ray will cost the NHS around £25, a CT scan around £500)(it's because if a GP sends a patient to a hospital for a scan, the GP practice 'pays' the hospital to provide the scan - it's all 'internal' money within the NHS but is 'cross-chargeable' etc etc).....and under the private system.
The private system is largely separate, other than that there are very usually the same doctors! (ie, you would see Dr X on the NHS during the day time, but if you pay privately you see him in the evening when his NHS shift is done!). There are separate private hospitals and clinics (the doctors move physically between them).
Ironically, because of the shortages of provision in the NHS, especially for things like CT machines etc, these days an NHS patient will often be sent to a private clinic to get the scan done, and the private clinic then charges the NHS.
I don't think, speaking personally, that private health care in the UK is 'that' expensive.....it's affordable by middle class folk (NOT the 'just about managing'....unless they give up their car/holiday or whatever!), but it isn't 'outrageously' expensive. For example, you can get a private CT scan for around £500, which is a lot, BUT, on the other hand, for a broad swathe of the middle class and upwards, that is not, to my mind, utterly unaffordable. It costs about £150 to see a consultant (senior hospital doctor).
There's increasingly a 'mix and match' aspect to health care in the UK, mainly because of the pressures on the NHS (an ageing population with complex health care needs, dementia rampaging through the country, and, worst of all, a generation of morbidly obese folk growing up and older.....)(oh, and all the tidal wave of mentally ill folk too, the other 'killer' for the NHS alas).
That pressure means that the big problem for NHS patients is not access to good health care but the wait for it! People can wait several years for things like hip replacements etc, and it can take two weeks to get a GP appointment - health care is not 'instant' any more!
(The other big problem, of course, is staffing - without the EU and the rest of the world, whose nurses and doctors we are draining off, the NHS would collapse) (we just utterly fail to invest in training our own medical staff....)
These days, the middle classes...ie, those who have a bit of 'disposable' income, and prefer health to new handbags or whatever....can opt to see a consultant privately (that very week!), who will then refer them back into the NHS for their actual treatment. It's a way of 'queue jumping', as it can take several months to get a referral to an NHS hospital consultant.
(The one big exception to that is cancer - there is an excellent Two Week Wait system that requires a patient suspected of having cancer symptoms by their GP, ie primary physician, to be seen by a consultant/have a scan, within two weeks - it works really well, but puts huge pressure on the NHS to actually deliver)(that's when it resorts to buying a CT scan from a private clinic!)
The key question really is - does the US system cost more to the patient than the private UK system (or private Canadian system if Canada, too, has a parallel private option?)If so, why, and what can be done about it?
Eg, I did read somewhere that an American hospital can employ more admin staff than medical staff, because they require huge numbers of admin staff to work out all the multiple insurance policies that patients arrive with!
However, one possible reason for a cheaper UK private system (if it is cheaper!) might be that it is 'subsidised' in some way by the NHS, as in, for example, it employs doctors who are trained by the state, rather than having to go through private med school (that said, UK students do pay tuition fees these days, so a six year med school would cost over £60k, plus living expenses and accommodation etc.....I would think most med students emerge as doctors with total debt of around £100k??)(that's only my guesstimate - my son did four years of uni and it cost £60k!)
Teresa - I've definitely heard that Dublin is a ferociously expensive city to live in!As for your economic woes, well, I could be a Brexiter and say well, that's what your precious EU did to you, didn't it? Screwed you right over! (But I'm sure there's a counter argument! :)
Anyway, having banged on about housing and health care, I had better get back to discussing the actual subject - the Nonesuch! Apols to all!
Right, back to the Nonesuch!In respect of Waldo's mission to save Julian from Tiffany's clutches - aided and abetted by Ancilla (and obviously that joint mission is drawing them together ...nothing like a shared conspiracy for creating unity and intimacy!), I am beginning to have more sympathy for (view spoiler)
(Hope that spoiler works!)
OK, sigh, it worked to the extent that it says view and hide, but not the actual spoiler text. What should I be doing ladies??! I've obviously got the technique wrong! Apols again.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "OK, sigh, it worked to the extent that it says view and hide, but not the actual spoiler text. What should I be doing ladies??! I've obviously got the technique wrong! Apols again."You should be doing this:
<spoiler>This is spoiler text.<\spoiler> (You can put returns in there if you want; it doesn't matter.)
What are you doing?
Ah, well, not that!!! I think I'm omitting the 'inner' set of greater/smaller sy/mbols. I'll give it another go.I was trying to say that watching Waldo desperately trying to part Julian from Tiffany is making me more sympathetic to (view spoiler) Fingers crossed it works now! And many thanks, too.
Yes! Hurrah - many thanks again!!! (I must keep practising the spoilers or I will forget again - the mods have already told me once how to do it but then I forgot how, and couldn't find the original reminder)
On this reading I was struck by the depth of Ancilla's sadness during the Great Misunderstanding. Hers is not a girl's love but the love of a mature woman, and her disillusionment is crushing. No doubt it is made worse by her precarious position in the world--she's about to lose her job at Mrs. Underhill's house and who knows if she'll ever get such a comfortable position again? Like (view spoiler) this book gives space for more profound emotions--whatever one thinks of the Great Misunderstanding.
& just to really confuse you Beth :D - you don't have to use spoiler tags in the spoiler thread unless you are wanting to mention another Heyer book - or a book by another author other than Austen or Cartland.
Ah, thank you Carol - I thought I needed to hide the reference to FD because it's another GH! By the way, does anyone read Cartland any longer? I never see her books 'around' the way I did when I was young (and she was alive)(she is a character over here in the UK of some 'infamy' or perhaps that's too harsh a word, certainly she is a 'character' and if satirists or comedians ever show an elderly woman with huge blonde hair, wearing a lot of pink, and false eyelashes, it will be her! She gained another round of fame when she became the step-grandmother of Princess Diana!) (To her credit, she never pushed herself forward as that, I believe, from what I can remember, and whatever one thinks of her literary output she was a financially independent woman in an era when that was highly unusual)
Abigail wrote: "Canada has state-run health care. Sadly, we stand alone among developed countries with our health care "system"!As for housing, it varies hugely depending on region. The coasts are ridiculously e..."
Exactly, a study just came out last week that millennials (roughly in their 20s-mid 30s) are moving into the suburbs and smaller cities because of high housing costs in the big cities. But, as Abigail says, I don’t know what they do about jobs? Companies come to them, telecommute?
Teresa wrote: "Reading Beth's comment I realise the UK are the same as we are in Ireland. Housing is a huge problem here and my kids will never be able to own their own homes. Where I live in Waterford we have th..."Teresa, I’d always heard London was very pricey, we’ve had news stories about oligarchs pricing out people in the fancy neighborhoods, not even living there much...had no idea Dublin was so expensive. I am sorry, I’m sure she’d love to be closer to her family, and you’d love to have her!
Teresa wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Beth-In-UK wrote: "Susan, I would say betas aren't inferior (by any means! Morally usually much superior!), but are probably better for marriage than a torrid fling (choose and ...";) thanks, my friend!
Critterbee❇ wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Agreed! And when I think of betas, I think of men like my husband - definitely smart, sexy, manly, kind, decent, honorable, but not a blow hard, noisy, attention-hog male (like ..."Very good description, I like that and agree! Alphahole - that’s a new one for me, thanks!*giggles*
QNPoohBear wrote: ""Alphahole" I love it! Those guys are usually the villains in Heyer's world. I don't care for those sorts of heroes even if they redeem themselves."You and me, both - they can redeem themselves, maybe, but never enough where any SANE heroine would say, ok, babe, I forgive you, c’mon over here...forgive them to comport with your personal beliefs of right and wrong if you must, but don’t throw your life away on that guy!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "The housing issue is clearly complicated isn't it! To my mind, what is always so 'daft' is that these days, the actual locality of businesses is becoming increasingly 'irrelevant', not just because..."Beth, we have the same problem here with Rust Belt cities, largely in the industrial Midwest, with plenty of homes going for a song, but no jobs nearby. And, of course, none of the fun, stimulating things people want to do in free time, theaters, restaurants, coffee shops, etc.
There’s often civic groups trying to revitalize investment and draw educated young people to these areas, who maybe would want to innovate and start businesses in these areas, but I don’t think it’s enough to create a new “boom” of development. I agree, starting businesses or moving them there would make sense - but often here, at least in the Rust Belt I’m referring to, weather plays a role (winter there is no joke, I grew up in Chicago!) I’ve read news stories about innovations they’ve tried in Detroit, Michigan, for instance, that have had some success, but I don’t know if they are considered sustainable.
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Abigail, even though Canada has state-run health care, I'm assuming that, as in the UK, there is also a parallel private health care system?In the UK, when the health service was nationalised int..."
Thanks so much for your explanation, there is so much noise and fury around health care in this country, and claims about care in other countries, it helps to hear from a real person in that country!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Ah, well, not that!!! I think I'm omitting the 'inner' set of greater/smaller sy/mbols. I'll give it another go.I was trying to say that watching Waldo desperately trying to part Julian from Tiff..."
Good on you, you got it! I was so pleased when sweet Hana explained it to me, and I finally got it!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Yes! Hurrah - many thanks again!!! (I must keep practising the spoilers or I will forget again - the mods have already told me once how to do it but then I forgot how, and couldn't find the origina..."I don’t know if this helps, or shows on your screen, but Hana explained there is a green comment above the comment box, that says “(some html is ok)”, and if you click on that, it gives a little cheat sheet on how to format comments.
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Books mentioned in this topic
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Gone with the Wind (other topics)
Vanity Fair (other topics)
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