Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
Group Reads
>
The Nonesuch Oct 2019 Group Read Spoiler Thread
I still don't believe the misunderstanding. Ancilla assuming the children are Waldo's own illegitimate children shows a lack of faith in him. She knows he's not a libertine and he hasn't even done anything more than flirt with Tiffany as a joke. Ancilla is usually so rational. However Waldo hasn't yet told her his plans so that also shows a lack of trust. If I were here, I would think his proposition would be to teach at the school and not a marriage proposal. That makes way more sense, logically.I skipped to the end too but I'll read the rest anyway.
That's an interesting idea! Yes, I could see Ancilla thinking (if she had known about the school) that that was what Waldo wanted of her.I agree the misunderstanding is still a bit 'silly', but I suppose one could argue that it is because Ancilla is 'so in love' with a man who surely, surely is too 'top of the trees' to love a humble governess etc, that she hardly dares believe it.....and almost 'subconsiously' comes up with a reason why it 'can't be true'......
In a way, it's also odd that no one in the neighbourhood seems to have the slightest idea that Broom Hall might become a school for orphans. After all, if the Nonesuch's reputation has reached Yorkshire, ie, as a Corinthian etc, surely a little of his philanthropy would have reached as well?
I can see Waldo, in a way, not wanting to let any one local know, in case they opposed it, but by the same token, since he is such a 'decent chap' one might have supposed that he would have had a programme of deliberately 'softening up the neighbourhood' to accept the school's eventual presence.
I am sort of assuming that the reason there might be local objections would be that (a) they disapproved of looking after orphans in the first place (!) and (b) they feared 'contamination' from Leeds (and social schisms must already have been forming between 'old' money and 'new' money etc) and (c) they feared that the teenage boys would start a petty crime wave in the area!
One would have thought that Waldo, identifying the Rector as a good egg, would have targeted him to start talking to him about the school, and get him 'on side' in terms of Christian charity, etc etc.
So, all in all, I think there is more to argue that Waldo would have started to tell folk about the school, rather than him keeping silent (and it's only because he's kept silent that the Big Misunderstanding happens at all!)
QNPoohBear wrote: "I still don't believe the misunderstanding."I'm with you. I think the big misunderstanding is silly and really brings the whole book down for me. It's not just that Ancilla leaps to the wrong conclusion - I think I could've believed that if it were handled better. We all know those times when we've been wrong about someone's character, so it makes sense for Ancilla to think she's been wrong.
The part that I find impossible is that the rector knows, his wife knows, Julian knows, and they're all ok with it. It's totally implausible that Ancilla would believe that all these people who she knows to be morally upright would suddenly be blaize about a houseful of bastards! And yet Ancilla would rather believe that she's been wrong in her judgement of everyone's character than consider that she's misunderstood the situation.
Ah but who ever said being in love made you act sensibly:):)
Teresa wrote: "Ah but who ever said being in love made you act sensibly:):)"😂😂😂
Irrefutable argument!
Teresa wrote: "Ah but who ever said being in love made you act sensibly:):)"That is true - poor Ancilla, for perhaps the first time in her life, was victim to her sensibility!
Teresa wrote: "Ah but who ever said being in love made you act sensibly:):)"and there you have it!
I always totally buy into The Big Misunderstanding. I think Ancilla was braced for Waldo's seeming feelings for her just being Too Good To Be True.
plus, I let the plot just carry me along, I guess.
Teresa wrote: "Ah but who ever said being in love made you act sensibly:):)"You are a wise one!
Critterbee❇ wrote: "Teresa wrote: "Ah but who ever said being in love made you act sensibly:):)"That is true - poor Ancilla, for perhaps the first time in her life, was victim to her sensibility!"
Another wise head on young shoulders!
Jackie wrote: "Teresa wrote: "Ah but who ever said being in love made you act sensibly:):)"and there you have it!
I always totally buy into The Big Misunderstanding. I think Ancilla was braced for Waldo's see..."
And third one’s a charm - thanks, Jackie, exactly what I was going to say! You can sense her niggling self-doubt - first, the nasty old hens make her self-conscious, then she starts to feel the Nonesuch can’t possibly feel that way about little old her! He could have anyone- and what does she really know about his personal indiscretions, anyway?! It was only ever whispered about, and gentlewomen were kept in the dark about such things (perfect environment for filthy gossip to grow and fester...)
Hmm, maybe I misread Ancilla's character then? She always seemed to me to be so self-possessed.-She was principled enough not to accept any marriage, even though her family needed it.
-She was confident enough to defy her entire family to become a governess because she knew it to be the right thing.
-She had enough grace and social awareness to play the governess-companion perfectly, despite the class awkardness.
If she really suffered from doubts about her own worthiness wouldn't they have shown up at any of these points? And now she loses her mind and is ready to think the worst of everyone, inlcuding herself and the man she loves, just because a few tabby-cats are gossipy?
Perhaps she had never been so affected emotionally by another person before. If this were her first love, than she would not be used to feeling these strong emotions. Then, experiencing those new emotions, she might be uncertain of her other feelings, and then second guess her sense, thinking that those new feelings were causing her to believe things that were not real. So in order to try to regain her equilibrium, she might have over-compensating by disbelieving and doubting. She is not an adolescent, but not a wise old person. I think everyone grows after their first experience with love.
Mod
..."
Which makes one wonder about 'Theophania' (ie what 'Tiffany' is a pet form of) meaning 'Manifestation of God' ...
Jenny wrote: "...Which makes one wonder about 'Theophania' (ie what 'Tiffany' is a pet form of) meaning 'Manifestation of God' ..."Well, it is from the Greek, so perhaps it could refer to Ares...
Critterbee❇ wrote: "She is not an adolescent, but not a wise old person. I think everyone grows after their first experience with love."Everyone grows after their first experience with
I'm probably just judging by my own experience here - when I fell in love for the first time I was far too trusting, not too doubtful, in the beginning.
Tiffany's name means "Manifestation of God"? goodness, that's unexpected!
Mod
There's just one slip, though: Julian says "Most men wouldn't care a straw what became of the poor little devils" when he surely would have said "don't care ... what becomes" when talking about a set of children that everybody knew existed and every rich person could have helped.
Using the conditional like that assumes he's talking about hypothetical children that some men might be responsible for but rarely care about.
Jenny wrote: "There's just one slip, though:"That's a very good point! I hadn't thought about it before. One could go even further and say that it would've been more natural for Julian to say: 'Most people don't care a straw what becomes of the poor little devils', since not only men were philanthropists (especially not regarding education and children) and since he's discussing the problem of the neighbours in general disliking orphanages in the area.
That would really give the game away!
Critterbee❇ wrote: "Perhaps she had never been so affected emotionally by another person before. If this were her first love, than she would not be used to feeling these strong emotions. Than, experiencing those new e..."Thank you, much better put than what I said!
Nick wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "She is not an adolescent, but not a wise old person. I think everyone grows after their first experience with love."Everyone grows
after
their first experience with failed..."
Lol - so true!
Jackie wrote: "Tiffany's name means "Manifestation of God"? goodness, that's unexpected!"Maybe when choosing her name, her parents were just overly optimistic? I imagine she was beautiful baby, they couldn’t know at the time how she’d turn out...
Susan in NC wrote: Maybe when choosing her name, her parents were just overly optimistic? I imagine she was beautiful baby, they couldn’t know at the time how she’d turn out...Perhaps if the parents who named her had lived to raise her, she wouldn't have turned out the way she did!
Margaret wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: Maybe when choosing her name, her parents were just overly optimistic? I imagine she was beautiful baby, they couldn’t know at the time how she’d turn out...Perhaps if the pare..."
Possibly- I think most new parents are optimistic!
This is another well written romp from GH - but it’s never been a favourite of mine, and not one that I would normally re-read. It’s a rare Heyer that is completely unenjoyable, and this one certainly has some great features in it, but as a whole - I cannot rank it in my top 25. Waldo and Ancilla are beautifully drawn characters but I really dislike Tiffany. She is such a ridiculously over the top character who is impossible to like or sympathise with.
The ‘misunderstanding’ ruins this one for me. Waldo is no rake, so why on earth Ancilla started to think he could possibly have fathered all those illegitimate children is utterly bewildering. I just feel this is an example of GH being lazy and taking the easy way out with a farcical misunderstanding. (Ducks swiftly to avoid incoming missiles!). Final verdict: - Good but not great! 😀
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "She is such a ridiculously over the top character who is impossible to like or sympathise with."Agreed! She's just awful!
I think in a different book she could've been the villain that you love to hate - but she's can't quite fill that role. She's not Ancilla's enemy, just her burden!
Nick wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "She is such a ridiculously over the top character who is impossible to like or sympathise with."Agreed! She's just awful!
I think in a different book she could've bee..."
Yes - she’s no Miss Wraxton - just a truly annoying teenager!
Also, Tiffany is never a serious romantic rival for Ancilla (which is how a character generally gets to be a "villain" in a a romance novel).
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "she’s no Miss Wraxton."This is the phrase I'm going to use to dismiss all my enemies from now on!
Nick wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "she’s no Miss Wraxton."This is the phrase I'm going to use to dismiss all my enemies from now on!"
me, too!
and that really sums up Tiffany, doesn't it? I mean, she is annoying but so easily dismissed.
Miss Wraxton, on the other hand...
Beth-In-UK wrote: "It reminds me of the scene which you may remember (I'm sure you all do!), that brilliantly humorous moment in GWTW when Scarlett, still in widow's weeds from her (brief!) first marriage, is at a fund raiser party, and Rhett shamelessly asks her to dance, which of course she does, scandalising everyone! (Capped only by the moment when Melanie so poignantly donates her wedding ring for the Cause....whereupon Scarlett promptly adds hers, to which Rhett caustically replies that he knows just how much it means to her.....!!!!!) ..."I was just sitting here thinking that Tiffany was the embodiment of pre-Civil War Scarlett! Puffed up with the knowledge that she's the prettiest girl around, knowing that every male she meets is at her back and call, she just gets more vain by the day.
Nick wrote: "Critterbee❇ wrote: "She is not an adolescent, but not a wise old person. I think everyone grows after their first experience with love."Everyone grows after their first experience with
Haha!!!!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "she’s no Miss Wraxton."Nick wrote: "This is the phrase I'm going to use to dismiss all my enemies from now on!"
Same!
I agree that the Big Misunderstanding does let the novel down overall. I think, though, we have to bear in mind two things - that it is hard to ring the changes plotwise within any genre, even for a genius like GH, and maybe she just couldn't come up with any other plausible reason for the Bad Moment that parts the lovers.And, too, that not only is it increasingly difficult to ring the changes the more novels you've written (or, indeed, that other folk have written!) (eg, in GH (view spoiler), but we must always remember that GH actually produced, year on year, TWO books a year! That's HUGe pressure - imagine writing, editing, and proofing one novel in six months, some part of which time must also have been spent researching the next one! And, as we know, her research is formidable, and with hardly any mistakes at all (the famous one is (view spoiler)
Cindy wrote: "I was just sitting here thinking that Tiffany was the embodiment of pre-Civil War Scarlett! Puffed up with the knowledge that she's the prettiest girl around, knowing that every male she meets is at her back and call, she just gets more vain by the day. *"
And without having the horrible experience of living through war, Tiffany can not truly develop her strong personality into actual strength.
I am really enjoying this discussion!
I always find Tiffany's name a shock - it's such a 1960s name, like Sharon or Tracie, to my mind. Just 'jars' in a Regency Novel. (As for Theophania - well, I've never heard of it in my entire life!)
Beth, could you please put spoiler tags in your message about Miss Wraxton? Just for the last sentence in the first paragraph. Thanks!Type
<*spoiler>sentence<*/spoiler>
without the *
thanks!
Sorry for posting - I tried to message you but your account doesn't accept messages. :)
**edited to add that I have re-posted with spoiler tags, see message 243**
I'm late to the discussion! This is not one of my very favorite Heyers, but I do really enjoy it and like the characters. I think that part of the reason that the characters of Waldo and Ancilla are more quietly dignified than passionate is because of the passionate characters around them. Tiffany's rages and histrionics provide an excellent foil for Ancilla's calm good sense; Julian, and Laurie, as well, are more impetuous and carried away by their passions. Both Waldo and Ancilla are required to be the voices of reason to those around them. I dislike Tiffany (who doesn't? Even her own family doesn't like her!) but she is entertaining to read about. Her ruthless selfishness reminds me of Scarlett O'Hara, but unlike Scarlett, we don't get to see Tiffany's eventual comeuppance and maturation. I have no doubt that she will eventually snag her title through some dazzled young fool. It will only be then that she will see her behavior checked. As a diamond during her season, she will be relentlessly courted by the men. The girls will dislike her and be jealous, but will swallow this and pretend to be friends because she is where the men are. Plus, being catty will only betray their jealousy and imply that they have good reason to be jealous. No one wants that!
After her marriage, though--that is when Tiffany will wake up in very different world. No longer will she be swarmed by hordes of gentlemen at social events; she's married now. She will find that, as a young matron, her social life is going to depend largely on female relationships, not her attractiveness to men, and I imagine that this is going to be a hard lesson for Miss Tiffany! I only wish we were able to see it . . .
Beth-In-UK posted:Have to say I don't really see Miss Wraxton as a villain, as she doesn't do anything bad ....except depress everyone around her! (view spoiler)
As a curiosity, apart from the assortment of murderers or would be murderers in GH's mystery regency romances, which characters actually are villainous?? And just how bad do they have to be to rate as a villain?? Maybe this is a discussion point for another thread!
*re-posted with spoiler tags*
You know, Cindy, I don't think anyone likes Tiffany! Does she have any redeeming qualities? Oh - thread idea...
For a more in-depth discussion of Heyer villains, check out Carol's post in our Heyer in General Folder, The Heyer Villains you Love to LoatheSee how Tiffany compares to the other nasty creatures sprinkled throughout Heyer's books!
Ok, sorry - I thought because she'd been mentioned already it was OK. (I do keep forgetting there are folk in the world who haven't read every GH RR a million billion times!!!!!! :) )
Thanks! I've just cross-posted in the Villains thread you linked above, and hope it didn't need to be done with spoiler alerts! (I assumed it couldn't, as in, no one could have said anything at all otherwise!)Speaking of Tiffany, are there any other GH heroine's cut from that cloth, ie, the 'spoilt beauty'? I have never cared for (view spoiler)
I suppose, in a way, that (view spoiler) - and then, of course, there is also (view spoiler)
Although Ancilla is accomplished and self-confident and intelligent, it doesn't follow that she's that way in every single facet of her life. I think that's why I don't mind the Big Misunderstanding. As someone up thread said, love doesn't make us particularly competent and clear-sighted. She's not arrogant, either; although she's had suitors, she doesn't expect every man she meets to fall in love with her. It's almost as though when she hears about his brats, she also hears the shoe she's been expecting to drop smack her upside her head. It is odd that Waldo's reputation for philanthropy hasn't preceded him to Yorkshire, but I'm guessing that part of that is that people simply aren't interested in such boring things and so don't gossip about it (they're busy with his sporting activities and his wealth - just like today, right?), and I'm sure that he doesn't run around with his publicist taking sweet pictures of the poor little orphans, either. It's hard for us today, where information is so instant, to remember that it used to take months for what we receive in a nano-second. Before Waldo was known to be the heir, he was probably not talked about much in the neighborhood at all.
I'm trying to think of a redeeming quality of Tiffany's, and all I can think of is her pride, which does make her almost act with a bit of humanity. Ok, it's a stretch!
Beth-In-UK wrote: "Thanks! I've just cross-posted in the Villains thread you linked above, and hope it didn't need to be done with spoiler alerts! (I assumed it couldn't, as in, no one could have said anything at all..."I posted in the villain thread, too! :)
That thread has open spoilers, because the discussion covers so many books.
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Foundling (other topics)The Plain Princess (other topics)
Gone with the Wind (other topics)
Vanity Fair (other topics)
We Need to Talk About Kevin (other topics)
More...
I really do connect with Waldo (I like that he's aware and intelligent and has a sense of humor) and Ancilla. On the other thread, QNPoohBear mentions that Ancilla doesn't have a friend to confide in, and I think that's why we see her talking to herself and definitely over-thinking things. I love the integrity that makes her so careful!