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what sf sub-genre do you avoid like the plague?
♥♫☻Olivia☻♫♥ wrote: I'm from Serbia and we have kvas here as well and I drank it as a kid. And I'm sure its not that hard to find online that it's a non-alcoholic drink. Ilija is our equivalent for Iliya and it is definitely a boy's name.I'm bumping it up on my tbr, it should be a lot of fun trying to spot these inaccuracies. And I'm told the story in interesting, so I'm not only reading it for laughs. :)
---> OooH! Hello neighbour! ))
Oh good))) Please let me know how it ends because I just couldn't get to the end of the book.
Navigator wrote: "♥♫☻Olivia☻♫♥ wrote: I'm from Serbia and we have kvas here as well and I drank it as a kid. And I'm sure its not that hard to find online that it's a non-alcoholic drink. Ilija is our equivalent for..."I'll let you know when I read it so we can exchange opinions and laugh about how badly researched it is. :)
♥♫☻Olivia☻♫♥ wrote: I'll let you know when I read it so we can exchange opinions and laugh about how badly researched it is. :) Ahaha, deal)))
Navigator wrote: "ALLEN wrote: "I avoid anything with unicorns (except Harry Potter)."Why so? //Ok, I know it's a weirdo question but I keep wondering why people keep avoiding unicorns like a plague but like, say,..."
Oh, I'm not crazy about dragons, either. Danaerys ruined them for me.
ALLEN wrote: Oh, I'm not crazy about dragons, either. Danaerys ruined them for me.
Had the same thing with vampires - why thank you, Twilight.
Also word "twilight" is now also ruined forever.
ALLEN wrote: "We'll always have Dämmerung, or "Gloaming."https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiLq-..."
-> Ooooh! Thanks a ton! I love such music and also I've learned a new word!
For me, I think the only thing that I would actively avoid is torture porn, especially pertaining to animals. I know it's stretching the bounds of this topic just a bit, but as an example Nick Cutter's book The Troop was one where that aspect completely ruined an otherwise pretty good horror (with a few SF elements) book for me. And now I won't read anything else he writes, under any of his pen-names, or his real one. Lost me forever there.Otherwise, I am pretty much open to any genre or style.
I wouldn’t say there’s a sub-genre in SFF that I won’t read. I’ll read almost anything if it’s well written. Not into anything with graphic gratuitous rape and torture. Not into anything with these things in anyway really. Gratuitous or otherwise. And don’t do anything horrendous to kids and animals (especially dogs). I’ve got even worse with those storyline’s as I’ve got older. I used to read a lot of war books and watch war movies and now they upset me so I don’t read/watch them anymore. I’m fine with a good space war though for some reason. And as to the SFF- sub genre romance or Romance sub genre SFF debate....yeah that’s a hard one. If it’s a boy/girl meets alien girl/boy/whatever who screws their brains out on an alien planet and they become their love slave or something then it’s Romance - Erotica - SFF in my eyes. Otherwise the distinction is pretty grey. Probably should just be cross referenced as both SFF and Romance. The library here wouldn’t have a problem with it. They’d shove a heart sticker and the SFF sticker on it and shelve it alphabetically with every other book. I think genres got too hard for them. Yep some books do have more than one genre sticker on the spine.
Twilight is a pretty good time travel book... the one by Nicholas S. Stember anyway....(just sayin')
Like others said, there’s definitely some I would say, but there’s always an exception. One that comes to mind is Christian sci fi, but then I read Out of the Silent Planet, because...CS Lewis. Nuff said. Also, like others said, I tend to stay away from rape plots, so I’ve never read The Handmaids Tale, plus I saw part of the original movie on tv 20 years including a rape and was turned off by it, even though I agree with Margaret Atwood’s message and feminism (I’m intersectional). Rape plots - unless it’s implied or mentioned as in older books - are the most unsettling for me. As far as sad, I’m most sad when an animal dies or is killed in a book, but I’ll read it if the story is good, such as The Red Pony, or an old book Rogue Male. In Rogue Male there’s also good justice.
"Kvas" or "Kvass" varies from place to place, but it's usually non-alcoholic and similar to Wyler's (Lemonade) Drink Mix or Country Time, though the latter is too sweet. When reporters for LOOK magazine profiled Soviet life in 1967 (it was the 50th anniversary of the U.S.S.R. and both magazines prepared cover stories), a reporter noticed that you could see the person in line get a kvass, drink it, and turn it back; after which it would be quickly washed -- and if you cared about such things, you'd know which glass was bound for you!But really, what non-alcoholic bev is better at slaking thirst than some kind of lemonade?
Kvass culture may have eased after the introduction of Pepsi -- I dont know.
ALLEN wrote: ""Kvas" or "Kvass" varies from place to place, but it's usually non-alcoholic and similar to Wyler's (Lemonade) Drink Mix or Country Time, though the latter is too sweet. When reporters for LOOK mag..."It's really not like Lemonade, but it is refreshing. Any online search for kvas would show that its non-alcoholic (or 1% alcoholic at most), so I find if funny that a person can get drunk on it easily in previously mentioned Shadow and Bone book. She could have just made up a name for the drink instead of using something that exists and is not even close to being like what is described in the book.
Jacqueline wrote: "And as to the SFF- sub genre romance or Romance sub genre SFF debate."Honestly, this has only become a debate due to Goodreads.
Romance is quite clear what it is:
From the Romance Writers of America association:
The Basics
Romance fiction is smart, fresh and diverse. Whether you enjoy contemporary dialogue, historical settings, mystery, thrillers or any number of other themes, there's a romance novel waiting for you!
Definition
Two basic elements comprise every romance novel: a central love story and an emotionally satisfying and optimistic ending.
A Central Love Story: The main plot centers around individuals falling in love and struggling to make the relationship work. A writer can include as many subplots as he/she wants as long as the love story is the main focus of the novel.
An Emotionally Satisfying and Optimistic Ending: In a romance, the lovers who risk and struggle for each other and their relationship are rewarded with emotional justice and unconditional love.
Romance novels may have any tone or style, be set in any place or time, and have varying levels of sensuality—ranging from sweet to extremely hot. These settings and distinctions of plot create specific subgenres within romance fiction.
They do go even further to detail subgenres and their definitions.
So, the problem lies wholly with Goodreads and People: People don't understand the differences between genres and subgenres. Goodreads lets anyone put anything on any shelf. There is the possibility of deception on the part of authors but that happens less than just plain ignorance.
You think yall have it bad? Go talk to the people who read non-fiction science. Those guys suck it up every day on GR. They are constantly getting SF rec'd to them because asshole readers put SF on "Science" shelves.
and historical romances or fictional history on History shelves. It's not just Goodreads - any one (publisher or self-published author) can tag a book with as many different categories as they want. The prime offender, when it was first listed, was 11/22/63 which was under Horror, Fantasy, Science Fiction, History, Literature, Time Travel, and about 10 other genres/subgenres
Mod
CBRetriever wrote: "and historical romances or fictional history on History shelves. It's not just Goodreads - any one (publisher or self-published author) can tag a book with as many different categories as they want..."This is a major pet peeve of mine. It drives me bonkers. I also feel that Romance gets a lot of unnecessary hate due to it being shoved in the face of those who hate it with a passion.
I do see less [Traditional] publishers tagging books like this than I see readers, though. Either way, my dream is to take away the ability to put a book on any genre shelf. Genre-tagging would be for professionals, only. Like me, lol.
Allison wrote: "So anyone else have thoughts on what they tend to avoid when selecting books?"if we go outside science fiction and into fantasy or historical fiction, I'd list King Arthur stories and/or retelling of traditional fairy/folk tales or fictional accounts of real history. I've already read them in one form and know the ending, so I have no desire to read them again. I also tend to avoid books with steampunk in the title
The whole post-apocalyptic thing is a turn-off for me. Actually, steampunk has also lost it's charm. And not to sound like an infommercial, (but wait...there's more!), I've lost interest in paranormal, other than a few authors. The Dresden books are one of the few exceptions.
MrsJoseph *grouchy* wrote: "...You think yall have it bad? Go talk to the people who read non-fiction science. Those guys suck it up every day on GR. They are constantly getting SF rec'd to them because asshole readers put SF on "Science" shelves. ..."I wouldn't put it that strongly, but yes it is annoying.
Also "Children's" is not a genre.
Also "Non-fiction" is not a genre.
I answered the original question w/out actually thinking about 'genre' so much as thinking about motifs. I honestly don't think genres are well-defined by professionals, or by crowd-sourcing, or even, I'm guessing, by MrsJ.
I like the libraries that use stickers and will put more than one on a spine if apt. But I guess that wouldn't help me with avoidance of motifs.... The OP really did open a can of worms....
Cheryl wrote: "I honestly don't think genres are well-defined by professionals, or by crowd-sourcing, or even, I'm guessing, by MrsJ. "That’s true. It’s my job.
I like almost every genre if it is well-written and not predictable. But the ones I am least fond of are supernatural stories. I prefer hard sci-fi. I am not crazy about military sagas.
Cheryl wrote: "Also "Children's" is not a genre."Nor is YA. Like children's or MG it's an age category. I've died on this hill so many times, if I were a cat I'd be running out of lives. ;)
Back to the topic: as others have mentioned, it isn't genre or subgenre that is the most important factor for me, it's content. Body horror's the one that always comes to mind first because I'm squeamish.
Interesting topic...Only two automatic do not reads for me:
- SF Romance - don't add SF elements to a romance story and call it science fiction. Adding a romance element to a science fiction story is probably OK in moderation.
- Paranormal/Magic - don't add paranormal or magic elements and call it science fiction. If you do add these elements to a SF story, at least present a fictional science explanation on why these are present.
Also, not a big fan of horror elements added to SF stories but have enjoyed some stuff in the genre.
ok i must admit this whole thread was prompted by The Calculating Stars winning the hugo. i had heard good things about it ever since it came out, and i was feeling a bit left out that i couldnt enjoy something so many people liked.
Najaf wrote: "ok i must admit this whole thread was prompted by The Calculating Stars winning the hugo. i had heard good things about it ever since it came out, and i was feeling a bit left out t..."I understand feeling out of step with the maddening crowd. It seems like 80% of the books people rave about these days I tend to either dislike or genuinely hate.
Calculating Stars is the exception. I thought it was terrific and gave it an enthusiastic 5 stars.
But I don’t let being an outlier bother me. After all, I have hated (with a capital H) the widely (but wrongly) beloved Empire Strikes Back since 1980. I’ve had a very long time to get used to being one of the five sci-fi fans who think it’s a garbage movie.
that's the first one with Yoda? I didn't like that one either. And it horrified me that during the battle with the Ewoks in the third movie, we (the audience) were laughing at people and Ewoks getting hurt/killed). That should never have been a comedy scene.and as for: "not a big fan of horror elements added to SF stories but have enjoyed some stuff in the genre" Alien is a great horror story.
Conal wrote: "- SF Romance - don't add SF elements to a romance story and call it science fiction. Adding a romance element to a science fiction story is probably OK in moderation."
"SF Romance" should be read "Romance - SF." That changes the game, doesn't it?
If you pick up a book that is called SF Romance, you are reading a Romance book with SF elements. This means that the main plot of the story is centered around a relationship and the struggles to make said relationship work - amidst whatever SF elements that are issues that keep the couple (or group!) apart.
I know I sound like a broken record. It's just...I read Romance. I love Romance books! I love the genre and all that it gives. I also understand that not everything is for everyone.
That doesn't stop me from feeling the sting of hurt that almost every one in my SFF groups bash Romance on a regular basis. A very regular basis.
So I want to do my part fighting the good fight.
Conal wrote: "- Paranormal/Magic - don't add paranormal or magic elements and call it science fiction. If you do add these elements to a SF story, at least present a fictional science explanation on why these are present."
This is a new thing, I'm learning. These new genre mash ups. SF Fantasy has gotten rather popular but I'm not the biggest fan, either. Its not as bad as Magical Realism but it's close.
Trike wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "I honestly don't think genres are well-defined by professionals, or by crowd-sourcing, or even, I'm guessing, by MrsJ. "That’s true. It’s my job."
I'm totally willing to step up my training. ;-)
Unfortunately, romance plots/subplots have always been added to almost every genre. There seems to be the idea that it will only sell if there’s two young pretty lovebirds who end up together at some point in the story. Same with movies and tv shows. I always find it nice when I find a good story without one where the story is good enough where it doesn’t need one.
Bruce wrote: "I always find it nice when I find a good story without one where the story is good enough where it doesn’t need one."Ditto. I always call it out when there's NOT a romantic element to a book, because it's so common that when it's not there, I really appreciate it.
Bruce wrote: "Unfortunately, romance plots/subplots have always been added to almost every genre. There seems to be the idea that it will only sell if there’s two young pretty lovebirds who end up together at so..."Historically, that is the nature of Fantasy books. It's only rather recently that most SFF didn't (at least) end with the "hero getting the girl." Romantic relationships are part of the human experience.
The problem that non-Romance (genre) readers have is that...outside publishers are starting to pay attention to us. Romance is THE highest selling genre, bar none. Supposedly the Bible is more widely distributed but I'm starting to doubt that (j/k). But Christian Romance is the highest selling sub-genre of the highest selling genre.
Romance novels are big business. According to the Romance Writers of America, the romance fiction industry is worth $1.08 billion dollars a year, which makes it about a third larger than the inspirational book industry, and about the size of the mystery novel genre and science fiction/fantasy genre markets combined. Romance novels regularly top the major bestseller lists (New York Times, Publishers Weekly and USA Today), and have a large, dedicated audience of readers.
What that means for you guys is...almost every author and publisher wants a bit of that Romance pie. Romance readers are a loyal and spendy group who read AND purchase in bulk.
So maybe yall are getting hit in the crossfire. A bit of friendly fire, if you will. SFF publishers and writers who can dial into the Romance bucks are in the big money. SFF readers just aren't willing to spend the same kind of money on the smaller word count.
I blame Twilight for starting the paranormal romance flood. I don't mind romance in my SF&F books, but i just don't want the whole plot to be "how do I get X&Y to the next sex scene". I do read romances (Georgette Heyer is one of my favorites)
I don't mind romance that's thrown in to advance character development, or to enhance a story. My problem is that there seems to be less romance, but more smut. Does that make sense? A sex scene can be smutty without a shred of romance, just as a scene can be very romantic without sex even entering the picture. I don't read traditional romance books, but I am not adverse to its inclusion in my sci-fi or fantasy as long as it's not the linchpin to the entire story. I think that's why I have given up on most UF, because the genre has changed so much. Except for the Dresden series, as I said earlier.
CBRetriever wrote: "I blame Twilight for starting the paranormal romance flood. I don't mind romance in my SF&F books, but i just don't want the whole plot to be "how do I get X&Y to the next sex scene". I do read rom..."Oh, I feel you! I avoided Twilight because I saw it as "YA PNR." And there's just something skeevy about a 100+ y/o man dating a high school student. But that's just me. I'm not judging anyone! I can see how Twilight may have made PNR a bit more popular but they had ZERO sex. That is a different author's sin, lol. Meyer is a Mormon and true to that belief system.
I've read a few Heyers. I love her, too. Though she's another one like Norton where authors just followed her lead and built upon rather than building their own. She's sorta become cannon in a way.
There's certainly been a decline in quality in some Romance books - and possibly to all genres as a whole.
It may come from the speedy publishing cycle. I don't think there's as much copy editing happening in publishing. I once bought a book from Tor that had the MCs nickname spelled WRONG throughout the dang book. The pub was all "Oooops! My bad! Here's 10% off the next one. It's a scan thing, you understand, right? Right! Peace! Pub Out!"
Well, not exactly, lol. But you get it.
Speaking of: Grim Dark/MC DeathIt's sorta become a genre of its own but I 1000000% avoid Grim Dark/Dark works. If the MC/MCs die, I want to avoid. ALL of the Grim Darks. No GRRM, no Joe Abercrombie, No Lawrence, Brett (god I hate him and GRRM), No Richard K. Morgan...
I don’t hate romance. Read a heap of it in another life. I’ve read a lot of Georgette Heyers books over the years as well as many by Eleanor Hibbert. You know her better under her pen names of Victoria Holt, Jean Plaidy and Phillipa Carr. She wrote lots of books each year in different genres and released them under different names depending on the genre. She also had a few other names that she wrote Murder mysteries and thrillers and that under. Anyhoo....Sometimes I still read books that are romances but not so much anymore.
CBRetriever wrote: "and as for: "not a big fan of horror elements added to SF stories but have enjoyed some stuff in the genre" Alien is a great horror story." Thanks, I have had a couple of Alien novels on my TBR but was not a big fan of the movie so have been leery to give them a try.
MrsJoseph *grouchy* wrote: "Conal wrote: "- SF Romance - don't add SF elements to a romance story and call it science fiction. Adding a romance element to a science fiction story is probably OK in moderation."
"SF Romance"..."
This genre label got me a few times but now an almost automatic pass... as noted, well written romance elements within a good SF story probably enhance the story.
now, I'm not sure how good the books were, it was the movie I was talking about
(I'm sure the posters know better, so I won't name them, but just as a public service I feel compelled to say: It's madding [not maddening] crowd, and certain books & authors can earn the designation canon [not cannon]. Thank you.)
Najaf wrote: "ok i must admit this whole thread was prompted by The Calculating Stars winning the hugo. i had heard good things about it ever since it came out, and i was feeling a bit left out t..."So, I agree, I wasn't impressed by this as a well-written story, and assume that most of the appeal is due the importance of & fascination with the premise. But I gotta ask - what sub-genre tag would you put on this? And is that a sub-genre you'd normally avoid?
It sounds like straight old SF with a slight touch of dystopia
Actually, I don't think I'm the only one who says Calculating Stars is taggable as alt-history. But it is more than that too. And I'm curious what Najaf says. :)
With the caveat that "avoid like the plague" actually means "avoid unless my friends assure me it's really good, or it's on the Hugo ballot and I have to give it at least an honest try before voting, or it's by one of my favourite authors, or I'm just very curious." Also, many of the following aren't strictly speaking sub-genres, but rather writing styles or other sorts of categories.I avoid:
* YA SFF written in 1st person POV, present tense
* urban fantasy written in 1st person POV
* epic fantasy series that run 2000+ pages
* steampunk that's primarily aesthetic rather than a coherent effort at worldbuilding
* military SF that's primarily focused on tactics and weaponry rather than on characters and sociopolitical developments
* paranormal romance with a contemporary setting
* grimdark books in which female and/or queer male characters routinely experience sexual abuse and straight male characters almost never do
* splatterpunk
* zombies
Cheryl wrote: "Actually, I don't think I'm the only one who says Calculating Stars is taggable as alt-history. But it is more than that too. And I'm curious what Najaf says. :)"Cheryl wrote: "But I gotta ask - what sub-genre tag would you put on this? And is that a sub-genre you'd normally avoid? "
alt-history is appropriate imo, i just read plot summary here and like the first six pages. and of course its (i am assuming ) more than just a alt-history book, but i cant comment on it any further since i havent read the whole thing...
and yes i havent read many alt histroy books. theres like dodo, highcastle and watchmen.
The genre I avoid at all costs is "poorly written." It seems to be a meta-genre, though, more than a sub-genre of any particular genre. Lots of other genres seem to have "poorly written" as a class.
Cheryl wrote: "(I'm sure the posters know better, so I won't name them, but just as a public service I feel compelled to say: It's madding [not maddening] crowd, and certain books & authors can earn the designati..."Sorry, I type fast.
Jain wrote: "With the caveat that "avoid like the plague" actually means "avoid unless my friends assure me it's really good, or it's on the Hugo ballot and I have to give it at least an honest try before votin..."I'm almost scared to ask but what is "scatterpunk?"
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Bookburners: The Complete Season 1 (other topics)Martians, Go Home (other topics)
The Handmaid’s Tale (other topics)
A Calculated Life (other topics)
To Reign in Hell (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Nicholas S. Stember (other topics)Patricia Briggs (other topics)
Why so? //Ok, I know it's a weirdo question but I keep wondering why people keep avoiding unicorns like a plague but like, say, will read anything with a word "dragons"slapped upon.