The Diary of a Young Girl
discussion
Anyone else hate this Diary
i have to wonder about her preconceived notions...i mean she said she hated the book before she even read it - so does that even play into her overall views... I mean psychologically, if you think you are going to hate something - then it is likely to happen; you think you are going to fail, you probably will - self-fulfilling prophecy and all that
Oh i am so glad i had that glass of red, because definitly that mountain has gave birth to a small rat!Anamika, i am not about to perform another CPR to the horse and beat it again to death - let´s just say that, as Joodith said your reasons are very non-sensical and i will not waste my time counter-pointing them. Others before me talked you through point by point, better than i would, so it would be redundant.
But i sensed the jealousy, the envy of the "attention" that poor Anne had, AFTER she was killied in a concentration camp - what was that all about? Are you jealous of a dead litle girl´s attention? Are you really that attention-deprived? Beware of the ugly head of jealousy: it´s a monster, that once awake, you cannot put it down very easily...
I can only say: be well, be happy, live many years of bliss...and take the blinkers off your eyes, becxause you´re not always right and an opinion is just that: an opionion and everyone has theirs. You will have many years to mature, i will wildly guess....
yeah, i still dont understand why she hated it...anamika u there?
Joodith wrote: "No, she has never said she hated Anne Frank"I think she did say it but edited the title/first message afterwards. IIRC she even admitted that.
About the reasons... I don't think I care anymore to answer to them.
so what if she hates Anne Frank.
WOW. I mean WOW.As a proof that hating a book before you read it doesn't necessarily mean that you will hate it, I came to this thread prepared to "side" my opinions with everyone who disagrees with Anamika.
Instead, I found them to be the most judgmental self-righteous ones, calling names, judging her age and even home country (without knowing any of this), calling her jealous with no real base, just because she happened to have an opinion that is not popular.
These people, who insist on calling her out on the fact that "you´re not always right and an opinion is just that: an opionion and everyone has theirs", also insist on bashing her for having hers.
It was kind of amusing, but now it became lame. Shame on you, who consider yourselves the "mature" ones, to shame and diminish someone like that because of their opinion, even worse if you believe her to be a teen. "Oh, you hated the diary? I bet you're just jealous, jealous of a dead little girl". Seriously??? Shame on you, "mature" ones, for disregarding someone's opinion as "stupid teenage" nonsense. You've all been there. ALL of you, and none was any better. Liking the diary does NOT make you any better.
And for the record: I do not agree or see eye to eye on everything Anamika says and I certainly don't share her way of expressing herself. I do, however, believe that each of us deserve respect.
haha, um...where did everyone go???
Do you mind giving an example of this judgmental attitude, that seems to aggravate you?I am a little sad that Anamika did not also reveal, why it was right to have her dramatic reveal at exactly this day. It seems a bit random; but it's been much fun so far.
Daniel wrote: "Do you mind giving an example of this judgmental attitude, that seems to aggravate you?"I gave examples. Read again.
i didn't say necessarily will hate it, but that it could have contributed
What?
Well, I think I mention a few things anyway. I have a feeling I have read somewhere that Anne wanted her diary to be published and even edited it at the time. Is it true, I don't know, but I guess she understood its significance.I also agree with Laura, I think she has been put on a pedestal a bit, Mary Berg for example isn't that famous. (And Sophie is a good example of courage.) There are also adults and even history majors in the Western countries who have never heard of Stalin's Terror. For some reason that is referred to as "the Holocaust" by them when they do hear about it... Don't they deserve a mention in the history classes? Or is it too difficult to admit that we were actually helping Stalin?
"We must never let that happen again" has always sounded like an empty phrase to me. It's easy to say but as evidenced by Rwanda, nobody is actually willing to do anything when it was the time to act. There are even people here who think that military force is unacceptable. And exactly that would have been needed there.
Ok, so those reasons are underwhelming... I mean, I can understand (though I disagree, which is fine). I admit to hoping for a longer, more detailed post since we were told to wait so long. I guess I don't get why it took so much planning and the half hour at the computer she did have despite being busy wasn't enough to write this several weeks ago. Still, thanks for keeping your word and sharing your opinions when you said you would, Anamika.
Daniel wrote: "Do you mind giving an example of this judgmental attitude, that seems to aggravate you?I am a little sad that Anamika did not also reveal, why it was right to have her dramatic reveal at exactly ..."
I suspect that this is Leslie in disguise....shhhh
Now seriously, Laura, the one who jumped from page 1 to 18 without reading anything in between - how dare you, i say, to come forward like this? If you want a valid opinion, read the 17 pages that you skipped out of haste or whatever and then, only then, say what you mean, without atacking anyone.
I am sure everyone is entituled to their opinion, but when one opens their mouth, they might as well be prepared to have arguments to back up those - in this case, bold - affirmations. We all were teens but, in my case, if i hadn´t the arguments right and ready to speak them when counterpointed, i was told to shut up - and they were right! There is this saying that goes " on a closed mouth, no fly goes in and no mistake comes out" and that is so right - if you don´t know what you´re talking about, then shut up and learn first.
And to finish, because this frankly is going nowhere, the build up to the reveal was not at all necessary, as she took about 10 mins to type it up and 15 to think it over, and tbh she already disclosed as much, in her many posts. The only thing that gave a bad tone was the assurance that she "is" correct and she will stand, through thick and thin to her beliefs....you know what? Stubborness is a way of getting dumb. The people who think themselves always right and everyone else "not so right" are the one´s who will become dumber and dumber on their pedestal, because they close their minds to other POV´s other than their own, therefore, becoming detached from reality.
And Laura, you can take this anyway you want to, because, yes, i am "the mature one" and the one you most quoted on your comment. I do not mind....
Anamika wrote: "I hate this diary for various reasons out of which I'll list out a few:1.This is like a major gossip of a 13 year old girl who is hiding in an attic to escape from Hitlers barbaric conduct.
2.Even..."
It has been challenged by Holocaust deniers as a fraud perpetrated by her father. Since the original is still available (it was preserved during the war by Miep Gies who lived until 2010), it has been subjected to analysis and authenticated.
No need to take my word for it. I know you won't read it since your mind is already made up, but I mention it to others who might be interested: Francine Prose's 2009 book Anne Frank: The Book, the Life, the Afterlife HarperCollins (ISBN 0-06-143079-X)
As to its originality, or as for Anne being the only one to suffer in times of war, from whom could Anne have copied such a diary? That she was not the only person to have suffered is absolutely true. And pretty damn tragic, don't you think? That her voice survives and so many others don't say something about the many voices who have been silenced long before their time for no reason.
Anne was not a saint. She was merely a girl who kept a diary. She intended the diary to be a record of occupied Holland. This is clear from the diary itself.
You have every right to dislike the book. Not everyone likes any particular book.
Laura wrote: "WOW. I mean WOW.As a proof that hating a book before you read it doesn't necessarily mean that you will hate it, I came to this thread prepared to "side" my opinions with everyone who disagrees w..."
As far as I know, I'm the only one guessing at home country. My only reason for guessing was trying to understand why Anamika had such a hard time finding a copy of the book. I personally don't care what opinions anyone has towards the quality of the book, the reasons it was published, or anything. I find Anamika's stated efforts and timeline to get a copy of the book to be both dedicated and unfathomable. Spending three months hunting down a book that she believed she would hate is something I have a hard time comprehending.
Sandy wrote: "It is rude to even ask if anyone hates the diary, while it is not really a very exciting read, it is a very serious part of history. The haulocaust was a VERY TERRIBLE event in history. And this is..."I disagree that it's rude to ask if anyone hates this diary. I believe Anamika, or anyone for that matter, has the right to feel any way about any book. I disagree with her feelings toward the book, but that's a different matter entirely.
It is pretty well established that Anne and her sister Margot died of typhus at Bergen-Belsen (sp?)some months before the camp was liberated.
Part of the reason to read the book, IMHO, is to understand that these horrible things happened to ordinary people, who were not better and nor worse than you and I. Their squabbles became meaningless, their achievements shattered, all their potential robbed.
The scary thing is, it keeps happening—in Cambodia, in Rwanda, in Sudan. And for the most part, the world doesn't notice.
Maria wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Do you mind giving an example of this judgmental attitude, that seems to aggravate you?I am a little sad that Anamika did not also reveal, why it was right to have her dramatic rev..."
I agree with Laura. And I dont always disagree with you, Marie. But I think Laura is right...
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!Suckers, you, me, one and all.
Now that it's July 2 and we've all had the Great Reveal, it's time to unsubscribe to the thread.
Let's stop indulging her.
And here, I'll let Neil Young have the last word on Anamika:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UI9Ml...
Anne Frank did not lead an exceptional life, she was hiding with her family from the nazies, so what we got is a diary of a teenager in hiding and not some sensational adventure story. It is a diary about mundane teenager stuff during a war. That as a record in itself is an exceptional piece of history as it shows the daily life of folks. I do not believe that there is another document like it out there. That makes it important, you do not have to like it but hating it is a tad bit strong.As for her wanting to publish it, that is so crazy, she never lived long enough to make that choice. A lot of teenagers write diaries and all want perhaps to published that does not make that happen.
Her father did find the diary and as a remembrance of his daughter he decided to publish this document for all mankind and perhaps to remember his lost daughter and their family. The edits are not important as the real document can be acquired quite easily if really interested.
These were the scribbling of teenager in hiding, historically interesting because of the everyday material, nothing important in the grand scheme of WOII. Do not hate historical documents celebrate them for existing, you do not have to read them.
And Anamika you are wrong in the most respectful way I can say. You are totally in your right to have an opinion, but totally wrong in its content.
I guess I'll take down the streamers and balloons. I got horses. Anamika, for gods sake, the diary is a historical document. It isn't supposed to be 'entertaining' or whatever. She wasn't looking for fame after her death. She was trying to write a diary to record what was happening to her. And saying it's not original is wrong. It's original in every way that a piece of writing can be. Dear god.
Daniel wrote: "Why didn't I make popcorn before reading this?"agreed.
Maria wrote: "I suspect that this is Leslie in disguise....shhhh. "No it isn't, but she hit the nail right on the head with this thread. Mae mentioned early on that she had been discussing this thread with her family. Well it's been a topic around here as well, and my housemate is also a psychologist. The comments in this thread are disturbing on a social level that I have already pointed out, but you've go the "majority" so there's not going to be any exchange of understanding.
As a proof that hating a book before you read it doesn't necessarily mean that you will hate it, I came to this thread prepared to "side" my opinions with everyone who disagrees with Anamika.
Instead, I found them to be the most judgmental self-righteous ones, calling names, judging her age and even home country (without knowing any of this), calling her jealous with no real base, just because she happened to have an opinion that is not popular.
These people, who insist on calling her out on the fact that "you´re not always right and an opinion is just that: an opionion and everyone has theirs", also insist on bashing her for having hers.
It was kind of amusing, but now it became lame. Shame on you, who consider yourselves the "mature" ones, to shame and diminish someone like that because of their opinion, even worse if you believe her to be a teen. "Oh, you hated the diary? I bet you're just jealous, jealous of a dead little girl". Seriously??? Shame on you, "mature" ones, for disregarding someone's opinion as "stupid teenage" nonsense. You've all been there. ALL of you, and none was any better. Liking the diary does NOT make you any better.
And for the record: I do not agree or see eye to eye on everything Anamika says and I certainly don't share her way of expressing herself. I do, however, believe that each of us deserve respect.
So worth repeating. Bravo.
Belle wrote: "Joodith, why are getting so angry? Its not like anything Anamika said is news, so why all this anger? Like, yeah, she has her opinion, and you have yours, and i have mine and Dee has hers. Everybod..."You are misreading my comments. I am not angry at all. Why would I be? Exasperated, maybe, angry no. I save my anger for something worthwhile - I use it very infrequently.
@Laura, a lot of the exasperation you see in some of the comments, are not to be read as they appear at first glance. Some of us are from very expressive cultures and thus, we are dramatic. If you had spent like we have the three weeks, going back and forth, you would realize this. Most of what you very well say in your post had been said a couple of times by many people, but I believe you said it very well indeed, and pretty much surmised all of our opinions.
There is no issue with teenagers in this posts, in fact most of our fellow posters are teenagers themselves. I will not identify them, because that is not important, but they certainly don't "sound like teenagers". And you know why, because they explain why they have their opinions. And we have disagreed with each other, many times, through out this thread. Many of us have actually "adjusted"our opinions. I for one have.
I understand, that you may not like a book, or find it boring--which is what Anamika makes reference to in one of her points at the reveal. I do and it is fine.
But hate is a strong word. And what we wanted to know is why hate a historical document. I think we can all agree that diaries, should only be allowed to be put in print by the author. We have all agreed that Anne wanted to be an author, (I always wanted to be published writer and wrote diary upon diary and journals…. that doesn't mean they I am going to be published) Normal people don't have that expectancy. Anne was a normal girl, in an abnormal situation-- that is why the diary was published. Information.
Hating information is a very strange thing. Immature even. Which, for many of us, is finally the only conclusion I can reach. And why so many keep trying to figure out her age. Another, is trying to figure out if her hate was based on her upbringing.
One las thing… @Anamika-- do you hate Malala's book also. Because, aside from the fact that hers is very well written, all your criticism about Anne, applies to Malala. "Why are we giving this one girl, so much attention, when so many girls in Afghanistan have suffered as much as her/" Because--as was said by may favorite 17th century poet.
"No man is an island entire of itself, every man is a continent a part of the main. Therefore never sent to ask for whom the bell tolls it tolls for thee." (I have cited from memory and may contain differences to the original) That is why Anne's Diary is important and because it tells first hand the story of one of many.
Leslie wrote: "Maria wrote: "I suspect that this is Leslie in disguise....shhhh. "No it isn't, but she hit the nail right on the head with this thread. Mae mentioned early on that she had been discussing this ..."
lol. I cant tell if you're being sarcastic or not...
I am sooo glad I waited!!!
4 what.
For July 2, for Anamika's wonderful reasons.
oh yeah, it was a GREAT reveal... *disturbed sigh*
Belle wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Maria wrote: "I suspect that this is Leslie in disguise....shhhh. "No it isn't, but she hit the nail right on the head with this thread. Mae mentioned early on that she had been d..."
I'm not. The reasons/excuses/justifications for the way Anamika has been treated are more revealing than her reasons for disliking the book.
oh okay. yeah, like Mae, reading you guys' posts had chaged my opinion, but Laura wrote what I frequently feel when I read posts on here perfectly. But I'm glad that I saw this thread because like Mae said, we've argued multiple times and I like that we can argue withoutfighting cuz there is a diference. XD
I would like to go on record saying that this thread has deeply enlightened me and improved my knowledge of a multitude of subjects. i feel like I know most of you personally, and this has been a wonderful experience.
Olivia wrote: "I would like to go on record saying that this thread has deeply enlightened me and improved my knowledge of a multitude of subjects. i feel like I know most of you personally, and this has been a w..."Like a party where the guests trashed the house, peed on the lawn, and passed out on the floor - they wake up the next morning and say "wow, great party". The host and the neighbors? Who cares about them...majority rules...don't have a party if you don't want your guests to have their "fun".
Belle wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Maria wrote: "I suspect that this is Leslie in disguise....shhhh. "No it isn't, but she hit the nail right on the head with this thread. Mae mentioned early on that she had been d..."
I am being totally honest. You can read it at face value. I have much respect for all of you.
I believe you Mae ;)
Belle wrote: "oh okay. yeah, like Mae, reading you guys' posts had chaged my opinion, but Laura wrote what I frequently feel when I read posts on here perfectly. But I'm glad that I saw this thread because like ..."thank you, I agree with you. This is why I respect you all, even Anamika. She deserves respect because after all, she faced all of us. It takes guts to come out like this. I think she will learn from this. I take that back, I know she has learned. I honestly think, her opinion is visceral, and sometimes opinions like that are hard to explain. This discussion will make her think about reasons for hating something.
Leslie wrote: "Olivia wrote: "I would like to go on record saying that this thread has deeply enlightened me and improved my knowledge of a multitude of subjects. i feel like I know most of you personally, and th..."What are you talking about, Leslie? Wow. This is not about a majority in the thread. There have been plenty that have written in and said they didn't like the book. And at any rate, the majority of people in the world out there, would find Anamika's opinion confused and wrong. Let me remind you, that you have been probably the harshest commenter on the thread. You are doing to others, what you claim others are doing to Anamika and most of those that you chastise are as young as Anamika.
Mae wrote: "Belle wrote: "oh okay. yeah, like Mae, reading you guys' posts had chaged my opinion, but Laura wrote what I frequently feel when I read posts on here perfectly. But I'm glad that I saw this thread..."I don't "make popcorn" to prepare to group-mock someone I respect. I don't broadcast that someone's reading list shows that they are inferior to me. I do not speculate about the age of another person in order to use that as a reason they should be insulted and disregarded. When a host asks me to stay on topic or be respectful of what they are trying to discuss, I respect that. I don't call someone stupid. I don't think this thread is about me and my wishes, it is about Anamika and her wishes because she created it. If you don't like her "reveal" which is what you labeled it, not her, and which has been and still is, insulting and sarcastic in the tone you used it (way to be supportive), make your own thread and have your popcorn. "Majority" was used previously when it was decided that Anamika's topic wasn't relevant as long as she didn't answer to "the majority's" demands. Apparently "that's how democracy works".
Leslie wrote: "Mae wrote: "Belle wrote: "oh okay. yeah, like Mae, reading you guys' posts had chaged my opinion, but Laura wrote what I frequently feel when I read posts on here perfectly. But I'm glad that I saw..."My comment about enjoying this thread references before you began to put us all down for being off topic or claiming we were in the wrong. It was all fun and games before the GR police arrived, Leslie.
We made our own thread to avoid being harassed by the losing cause. Even Anamika never came back to tell us to be on topic.
Anamika, what I am confused about is how you say that these are Anne's personal thoughts, and then you say later that she did want to publish it. Actually, Anne did want her diary to be published. But I do not see how that would make someone hate the book. Also, with the reasons on how "everyone should get the attention" et cetera, by liking this book, we are not saying that everyone else in the war wasn't good, we are just saying that Anne Frank was one person who lived in that terrible time, and documented it.
Also, "due to a few insults and mockery, I'll finish here" please please please do NOT "finish here"! We have all been waiting for you to tell us your reasons, and now you won't even finish telling us? If you have any other reasons, please tell us now.....
or I suppose you could gather your thoughts and tell us on August 2nd?
or I suppose you could gather your thoughts and tell us on August 2nd?
Leslie wrote: "Olivia wrote: "I would like to go on record saying that this thread has deeply enlightened me and improved my knowledge of a multitude of subjects. i feel like I know most of you personally, and th..."Good god - what sort of parties do you go to! I'm so glad I don't go to the same ones....
Julane wrote: "Anamika, what I am confused about is how you say that these are Anne's personal thoughts, and then you say later that she did want to publish it. Actually, Anne did want her diary to be published..."Rather than dismissing what Anamika is saying, perhaps try to relate/understand, with something more along the lines of:
It is true that many people in the world live with suffering and oppression, and do not have a voice because of that. What Anne Frank went through, many were going through at that time, and have since. What is maybe unique about Anne Frank is that not many who survived had written down their experience, and Anne died, so she has become something of a symbol of the most horrific oppression. It is important to remember that there is still great suffering and oppression in the world, and it is important for us to let small voices speak...sometimes harshly...to remind us of that. Anne Frank represents for us what happens when we let hate, intolerance, and oppression overrule humanity and kindness.
Julane wrote: "Also, "due to a few insults and mockery, I'll finish here" please please please do NOT "finish here"! We have all been waiting for you to tell us your reasons, and now you won't even finish telling..."I would definitely wait around for that!!...(rolls eyes)
Leslie wrote: "Julane wrote: "Anamika, what I am confused about is how you say that these are Anne's personal thoughts, and then you say later that she did want to publish it. Actually, Anne did want her diary ..." You obviously did not read what I have posted. I pretty much said all of that , but in my own words. And for the record, you can be supportive, and disagree. Like we say in our country, "you are preaching morals in underwear". The worst insult in this thread was thrown by you. You highjacked the thread for four pages. Geez. And, some of the worst comments are not from the "popcorn"people, and Anamika herself joined in the Popcorn. You only see what you want to see. I am really sorry for your pain. Your self-righteousness should be used for more important issues than a GR thread.
And before I forget, all the accusations you make, directed to me… except for the popcorn,and the use of the word reveal, it was not me. These are individuals, with their own opinions.
Mae wrote: "And before I forget, all the accusations you make, directed to me… except for the popcorn,and the use of the word reveal, it was not me. These are individuals, with their own opinions."Hope you feel better now.
Leslie wrote: "Mae wrote: "And before I forget, all the accusations you make, directed to me… except for the popcorn,and the use of the word reveal, it was not me. These are individuals, with their own opinions."..."No I don't. I don't appreciate people that point out the speck in my eye, whilst carrying around a chunk of wood on their shoulders. You keep trying to make people angry and then you mock them.. Does that make you happy? @Anamika sorry about going off topic.
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In fact, she wrote several times that she wouldn't allow anyone to read it. So, again, perhaps her father breached her privacy by publishing this diary, even if edited.
Still, the point remains that Anamika, regardless of her age, has every right to dislike this book. Furthermore... I sort of agree with her about the popular praise of Anne's courage and sufferings above other victims of this war (Sophie Scholl comes to my mind as example of courage). This violation of Anne's privacy made her a hero of sorts. She has been put in an altar. I prefer to see her as a symbol of all the little girls and young girls who followed a similar fate.
But again... that has nothing to do with someone's literary taste.