The Grishaverse discussion
Ruin and Rising
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DISCUSS THE FIRST CHAPTER OF RUIN AND RISING
Vindictev wrote: "I don't take what Mal assumed seriously, because that's what Mal thought. Not Alina."«So maybe I don’t believe it yet either, not completely, but it’s the truth.” He clutched my hands more tightly, holding them close to his heart. “I don’t care if you danced naked on the roof of the Little Palace with him. I love you, Alina, even the part of you that loved him.”
I wanted to deny it, to erase it, but I couldn’t
Yes, you are probably going to point out that she wanted to deny it, but that is just because she thinks the Darkling is a monster. Once she gets rid of her fear, the feeling may return with a vengeance. Or may not. *shrugs* I try very hard to be objective in that matter.
It is much more exciting to watch a relationship start from scratch than being told how the heroine has already loved someone for a long time.
I'm talking about the Alina right now, not the Alina back then since people change over time. In R&R she said she used to have a taste for him, and that was back then.If Alina loved the Darkling or Nikolai, I'd expect that there would be clear evidence of that in her own thoughts since it's in her narration. I'd expect her to think of the Darkling as someone she loves, instead of thinking of ways to defeat him.
I don't think her pull to him is romantic either, since it's always connected to her power connection with him. Alina feels lonely because she has no one else who understands her gift but the Darkling, since they're the only ones who share this similar power.
Vindictev wrote: "If Alina loved the Darkling or Nikolai, I'd expect that there would be clear evidence of that in her own thoughts since it's in her narration. I'd expect her to think of the Darkling as someone she loves, instead of thinking of ways to defeat him."You know, Scarlett O'Hara also didn't realize she was in love with Rhett Butler all along as she was too busy pursuing her childhood romantic dream of Ashley.
There was also never "clear evidence" that she loved Rhett.
V, Mal is in this series Alina's decoder. Because he knows her better than anyone and because he's a really good observer.So pay attention to their conversations because Mal speaks truth when it comes to her.
That said, look at Mal himself to understand what's going on between them. At the end of S&S he's drinking and fighting everyday.
He is beyond miserable.
I seriously hope that behavior doesn't strike you as that of someone who feels loved and/or is in a loving relationship.
If I saw a friend in these circumstances, the last thing I'd tell him is "Hang in there pal, this girl clearly loves you. That's why having your ribs broken time and again gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling."
Cari wrote: "V, Mal is in this series Alina's decoder. Because he knows her better than anyone and because he's a really good observer. So pay attention to their conversations because Mal speaks truth when it ..."Mal says that in S&B. That was back then. Like Alina said in R&R, she HAD (past tense) a taste for the Darkling once. Meaning USED to.
What does Mal grieving over everything interferring with their relationship have anything to do with Alina's nonexistent romantic feelings for Nikolai and the Darkling?
At least Mal isn't giving up on loving Alina just because a war is going on. I'd think he didn't truly love her if he did give up.
Natalia wrote: "Vindictev wrote: "If Alina loved the Darkling or Nikolai, I'd expect that there would be clear evidence of that in her own thoughts since it's in her narration. I'd expect her to think of the Darkl..."
That's a different book, and we're talking about two completely different authors.
If Alina loved the Darkling, she wouldn't always be thinking about Mal and plotting how to defeat the Darkling. Alina NEVER thinks of the Darkling as a love interest. Like at all.
Where is this proof that Alina is pinning after the Darkling or Nikolai right now? because I don't see it.
@ Vindictev, obviously, these are different books and different authors, but my point was this: the fact that Alina is not entertaining romantic thoughts about the Darkling doesn't mean that she doesn't have feelings for him. She may shy away from the truth because she is scared and stubborn. Once she lets her fear go or come to know him more as a person, things may change. If you read Gone with the Wind (and I mean the book, not the movie), you just can't miss the parallels. But it took Scarlett about 12 years to realize the truth, so I hope Alina won't wait that long, even if she is supposed to live for millennia ;)
But, like I said before, she may just as well choose Mal, I'm not saying I'm sure about what her choice will be. Alina is a wild card.
There's also the scene where the Darkling does the creepiest thing like posing as Mal and feeling up on Alina without consent.I'm not sure of the reason why he did it, but some people have said that The Darkling was giving Alina what she wanted or desired the most, and it was Mal. Out of all three men, it was Mal she wanted.
Then when she finds out it was actually the Darkling in disguise, and she's terrified.
If Alina was in love or had romantic feelings for the Darkling or Nikolai, wouldn't she have asked for them and not been terrified when discovering it's the Darkling?
@Natalia, I would believe that if she mentally conflicted with herself and her feelings for the Darkling like she did with Mal.Alina is clearly still in love with Mal. We know because she's fighting with her feelings for him in her own narration or mind. We know she loves Mal because she's always grieving over their increasing distance, and thinking about him in a romantic light.
Why isn't she doing this with the Darkling when she's shying away her feelings for Mal right now and mentally expressing it?
Vindictev wrote: "There's also the scene where the Darkling does the creepiest thing like posing as Mal and feeling up on Alina without consent.I'm not sure of the reason why he did it, but some people have said t..."
About that:
«She doesn’t want any part of you,” Mal spat.
“No?” the Darkling asked. His dark hair gleamed in the lamplight of the chapel. Summoning his shadow army had taken its toll. He was thinner, paler, but somehow the sharp angles of his face had only become more beautiful. “I warned you that your otkazat’sya could never understand you, Alina. I told you that he would only come to fear you and resent your power. Tell me I was wrong.”
“You were wrong.” My voice was steady, but doubt rustled in my heart.
The Darkling shook his head. “You cannot lie to me. Do you think I could have come to you again and again, if you had been less alone? You called to me, and I answered.”
I couldn’t quite believe what I was hearing. “You … you were there?”
“On the Fold. In the palace. Last night.”
I flushed as I remembered his body on top of mine. Shame washed through me, but with it came overwhelming relief. I hadn’t imagined it all.
“That isn’t possible,” Mal bit out.
“You have no idea what I can make possible, tracker.”
I shut my eyes.
“Alina—”
“I’ve seen what you truly are,” said the Darkling, “and I’ve never turned away. I never will. Can he say the same?”
“You don’t know anything about her,” Mal said fiercely.
“Come with me now, and it all stops—the fear, the uncertainty, the bloodshed. Let him go, Alina. Let them all go.”
“No,” I said. But even as I shook my head, something in me cried out, Yes.»
So the Darkling came to Alina because she subconsciously called out to him.
Vindictev wrote: "Then when she finds out it was actually the Darkling in disguise, and she's terrified.
If Alina was in love or had romantic feelings for the Darkling or Nikolai, wouldn't she have asked for them and not been terrified when discovering it's the Darkling? "
Well, theoretically, if I was making out with one person, and opened my eyes to discover it was another one, I'd clearly be terrified too. Even if I had feelings for both of them. For fear of losing my sanity, if nothing else.
@Natalia,I already said that Alina is attracted(non-romantic) to the Darkling because he's the only one who understands her power since they're the only ones who have that power and share some sort of connection through it.
Seeking someone to understand her power doesn't mean Alina has romantic feelings for the Darkling.
Vindictev wrote: "Proof?"No proof so far. I think and hope we will have more info about those visitations in R&R.
Vindictev wrote: "@Natalia,I already said that Alina is attracted(non-romantic) to the Darkling because he's the only one who understands her power since they're the only ones who have that power and share some so..."
It's a thin line, really, especially since she already was romantically attracted to him once.
And he seems to have a sort of love for her (non-platonic).
We know nothing about how the Darkling feels for Alina. I do not think he have any romantic feelings for her. :)
Well, theoretically, if I was making out with one person, and opened my eye to discover it was another one, I'd clearly be terrified too. Even if I had feelings for both of them. For fear of losing my sanity, if nothing else. You know I've actually done that in a dream. Funny, it wasn't too strange at the time. lol Everything in dreams makes sense I guess.
Why isn't she doing this with the Darkling when she's shying away her feelings for Mal right now and mentally expressing it?
Alina has been expressing her feelings for Mal since the beginning. She keeps those feelings hidden from Mal, but she's acknowledged them herself and thus to the reader. There's no fear there and she's open with herself about it. She accepts it and never seemed to feel frightened by those feelings.
With the Darkling, I think there IS fear there. Fear of what acknowledging feelings for him would mean. Mal does call Alina out on loving him and she doesn't deny it. She seems to accept it in that moment, that part of her did love him. Doesn't stop her from believing he needs to be defeated.
(Part of her can love him, while the other part believes he has to be defeated. The same way Rose loved Dimitri but knew she had to kill him because of what he became. Before you say different book, I'm just giving you an example of a similar mindset.)
Since Mal made that statement, Alina has not confirmed how she feels about the Darkling now in the sense of the part of her that loved him. She doesn't say part of her still loves him, nor does she say that part of her no longer loves him.
Now we know with that R&R excerpt Alina no longer fears the connection between herself and him. This is the first time she's not afraid. I think only now will she be able to acknowledge if she does have feelings for him, once she's gotten over the fears. (Fears of him, of their connection, their power, etc.)
So I guess my answer is, I think R&R will reveal her feelings if she has them, since she's no longer afraid. (Which is funny because the Darkling IS afraid, possibly from their connection and his own feelings.) And by saying R&R, I don't mean the first scene she shares with the Darkling which probably happens in chapter 3. If she does have feelings for him, I think they'll come out toward the middle or end.
Carina wrote: "We know nothing about how the Darkling feels for Alina. I do not think he have any romantic feelings for her. :)"Honestly I think that excerpt from R&R says otherwise.
“But it’s not just power, is it?” I said quietly, remembering the way he had toyed with me when I’d first arrived at the palace— even before, from the first moment we’d met. I’d been a lonely girl, desperate for attention. I must have given him so little sport.
I took another step. He stilled. Our bodies were almost touching now. I reached up and cupped his cheek with my hand. This time the flash of confusion on his face was impossible to miss. He held himself frozen, his only movement the steady rise and fall of his chest. Then, as if in concession, he let his eyes close. A line appeared between his brows.
That behavior from him is like nothing we've seen so far. He's usually cool and aloof, smirking and confident, but here he actually stills and freezes. I think this is the first scene that really confirms his feelings. It IS more than power, and Alina calls him out on it.
Oh? It IS more than power? How many times did you tell me WinterRose to NOT talk like that? To not pretend that I know the facts? Because it sounds like to me like you are saying that the Darkling MUST love Alina. When the truth is that we do not know. From both books the chance is HIGHER that he does not love her. Considering all the awful things he did to her.
@ Carina: How would you describe his behavior in this excerpt, then? What's your take on it?
He might be playing a role. Just like Alina is playing a role :) My point is, we do not know. Example: The surprising scene. Mal and Alina alone in the woods. Him without shirt and boots. ALL of you said it was nothing romantic. Seriously? So just because it is the Darkling it has to mean something? But when is Mal all of you say it's nothing. I don't understand any of you. Sigh.
I have something that I'd like to know, and this comes from a conversation with Natalia this morning.Why do you guys think that from such a big group (900 people) so little of them are contributing to the forums?
My theory is that we may be scaring them off with our constant, and heated, Mal vs the Darkling stuff :))
So, if anyone's out there reading this, please feel free to post your ideas, jump in the middle of conversations... even if it is on a completely unrelated topic about the series. :)
Okay, there is no right and wrong answer. We are speculating. For all we know, we are all wrong, and we are all kind of manipulating the facts to our own benefit. We all have points, and one opinion is not right and another wrong. Also, Cari is right. We might be scaring them off. We are all fanatics and highly opinionated and, quite frankly, not always civil with one another.
Elvina wrote: "and, quite frankly, not always civil with one another. "On this I disagree. ) I believe we are quite civil.
But yes, it always comes down to Mal vs. the Darkling.
Lets discuss the prologue and 1st chapter sometime too :P
Any new thoughts?
I was sort of referencing on the Tracker, particularly last Friday/Saturday, there were some arguments that were not the nicest really. I know that I, for one, was quite rude that day. I'm not saying everyone was.
I am guilty of this myself. Last night someone that I think was new was making all of these well articulated posts and I was going on and on about a crazy idea I had about Nikolai. It was like my hands were in autopilot and I couldn't stop. I think this person ran to the nearest exit. T__T
Cari, I read your posts about Nikolai and they were interesting, so don't feel guilty. You actually got me interested in the novellas, as I usually don't read them, for any series.
Natalia wrote: "Lets discuss the prologue and 1st chapter sometime too :PAny new thoughts?"
Well, there are new folktales mentioned and I don't think these are just there to be entertaining. They must be pointing out to something else.
Natalia wrote: "Cari, I read your posts about Nikolai and they were interesting, so don't feel guilty. You actually got me interested in the novellas, as I usually don't read them, for any series."Thanks for your kind words. I think we all like this series too much. :))
edit: I approve of Elvina's use of the word fanatic <3 I think I am really. I can't stop thinking about it.
Yes, the folktales are definitely not random.So, what we need to work on:
1. The monster Izumrud.
2. Folktales.
3. Apparat and his game.
4. Tolya and Tamar and their allegiance.
Anything else?
And the prologue. Where Mal wasn't giving up on seeing Alina. <3
Oh, Tamar... I have grown to love this girl. I think she's quite amazing. I love her no-nonsense approach to things and though I wish she were a bit less belligerent, I think she's good for everyone in the group.There is this side to her that's sensitive and compassionate for people. Like what she did for Genya.
I hope things go well for her and Nadya.
Also, who is this Nadya? Is she the friend of Sergei's deceased girlfriend?
Cari wrote: "Also, who is this Nadya? Is she the friend of Sergei's deceased girlfriend?"Yes.
Haaaah. Wasn't Nadya his girlfriend? (I probably remember wrong)
Cari wrote: "I have something that I'd like to know, and this comes from a conversation with Natalia this morning.Why do you guys think that from such a big group (900 people) so little of them are contributi..."
I know that I'm about half an hour off from topic, but Cari you SO sum it up. I made my first post ever and...well, you probabaly know.
Laura wrote: "Cari wrote: "I have something that I'd like to know, and this comes from a conversation with Natalia this morning.Why do you guys think that from such a big group (900 people) so little of them a..."
Sometimes we do get carried away, that's true :)
Laura wrote: "Cari wrote: "I have something that I'd like to know, and this comes from a conversation with Natalia this morning.Why do you guys think that from such a big group (900 people) so little of them a..."
Hi! I'm glad you decided to post :)
We're a nice bunch, really, just a little crazy from time to time ;)
Did you like the prologue/chapter 1?
@Natalia and Carina- Ok, I didn't really pay much attention to those two characters (the two girls from grisha school).Somehow Sergei did stand out. I wonder what his role will be in R&R. The prologue says he's unstable. That can lead to all sorts of trouble...
Natalia wrote: "Yes, the folktales are definitely not random.So, what we need to work on:
1. The monster Izumrud.
2. Folktales.
3. Apparat and his game.
4. Tolya and Tamar and their allegiance.
Anything else?"
1. There is something we don't see since everything in the books has a relevante.
2. I think the folktales are supposed to have a role in explaining an aspect:
The witch of duva talks about a hero in disguise, and centers around merzost(magic)
The too clever fox is about the difference between appearences and essence
The little knife is the missing piece is probably about you belived/where taught as a child and what changes your perspective
I think the stories are used to represent each character 1. The Darkling 2. Nikolai 3. Malyen
3. The Apparant is definetly up to something, I mean Look at the analogy he makes with the mice and rats.
4. I think that their allegiance definetly lise with Alina bc look at the discussion guide. Plus the excerpts.
Cari wrote: "Laura wrote: "Cari wrote: "I have something that I'd like to know, and this comes from a conversation with Natalia this morning.Why do you guys think that from such a big group (900 people) so li..."
I loved the prologue and first chapter! I just don't post often as I am at work and keep sneaking in to read the posts.
I can't wait to get the book, so I get my fix by reading all of these posts.
Carina wrote: "Oh? It IS more than power? How many times did you tell me WinterRose to NOT talk like that? To not pretend that I know the facts? Because it sounds like to me like you are saying that the Darkling ..."*face palm*
Carina, no where in my post did I say the Darkling must "love" Alina. I'm only pointing out his reaction to Alina calling him out, which is different than we've seen him behave. My point was that I think he's actually NOT playing a role. I think the role playing reversed, with Alina playing him. To me, his reaction is the reaction you get from someone who has been called out on the truth.
Honestly, I don't think the Darkling can win with you, lol. When he does something that could reveal positive feelings, he's always faking. When he does something questionable or controversial, it's always real and he's evil.
There's really no point in us discussing him further if all you see is evil and bad. Best to move on. ;)
Natalia wrote: "Yes, the folktales are definitely not random.So, what we need to work on:
1. The monster Izumrud.
2. Folktales.
3. Apparat and his game.
4. Tolya and Tamar and their allegiance.
Anything else?"
Cari, I can't remember if you answered this or now. Do we know what Little Knife is supposed to be about? Do we know anything about it?
BTW, the publisher probably realized the discussion questions were full of spoilers and made them disappear. I'm going to read the novellas this weekend. I love the idea of the Darkling being a hero in disguise. Heck, I don't even care if he gets Alina, as long as he lives. Because Alina may change her mind in about a hundred years anyway.
But I mostly meant the folktales mentioned in the prologue.
"... he would tell the story of a river, tamed by a powerful Tidemaker and trained to dive through layers of rock, seeking a magic coin."
I feel like the Tidemaker in this story is Baghra.
"He’d whisper of poor cursed Pelyekin, laboring for a thousand years with his magic pickaxe, leaving caverns and passages in his wake, a lonely creature in search of nothing but distraction, amassing gold and jewels he never intended to spend."
Now who is this Pelyekin? I mean, who is he supposed to stand for?
In this third Ravkan folk tale from Leigh Bardugo, a beautiful girl finds that what her father wants for her and what she wants for herself are two different things. In this third Grisha Trilogy folk tale from Leigh Bardugo, a young girl's beauty causes discord in her small town, but her father's solution may prove far more dangerous.
WinterRose wrote: "Honestly, I don't think the Darkling can win with you, lol. When he does something that could reveal positive feelings, he's always faking. When he does something questionable or controversial, it's always real and he's evil. There's really no point in us discussing him further if all you see is evil and bad. Best to move on. ;) "
THIS! I was thinking of pointing out the same.
Yes, we do know a bit about it:In this third Ravkan folk tale from Leigh Bardugo, a beautiful girl finds that what her father wants for her and what she wants for herself are two different things.
This is a big one. Like Elena said it should be about Alina and Mal.
If I had any self-restraint I would wait to read it first and then read R&R, but I think I would have a heart attack if I have to wait until June 24 to read this. And then read R&R. It's not happening.
Laura wrote: "In this third Ravkan folk tale from Leigh Bardugo, a beautiful girl finds that what her father wants for her and what she wants for herself are two different things. In this third Grisha Trilogy f..."
Is it possible that this one is about Genya or Alina?
Edit: Why are you all so sure it should be about Alina and Mal?
Laura wrote: "In this third Ravkan folk tale from Leigh Bardugo, a beautiful girl finds that what her father wants for her and what she wants for herself are two different things. In this third Grisha Trilogy f..."
Hey, thanks for the second bit of description. It is the first time I see that! Where did you get it?
If Alina had romantic thoughts about the Darkling or Nikolai, then I'd say that it might be possible for either of them to be endgame with her, but that's not the case.
She still loves Mal, and hasn't shown any romantic feelings toward the other guys. It's in her narration so you'd expect her to have such thoughts about the other guys if she's already had them about Mal, but they don't exist.
Makes me think she's not interested in them and only wants to save Ravka.