The Grishaverse discussion
Ruin and Rising
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DISCUSS THE FIRST CHAPTER OF RUIN AND RISING
Natalia wrote: "Much like in the first two books, I feel like Alina is going to fight with the wrong person against nothing and in the end, when it's too late to change anything, she will finally see the truth and..."I got a feeling that she won't be the only one who regrets it dearly
Am I the only one NOT infuriated by Alina?I think she's doing everything like a normal teenage girl would. She's still growing.
I don't see any potential future with Ruby and Mal, probably because Mal was already ignoring her when he was too busy staring at Alina while Ruby talked. Ahaha.
It also seems a little too late for Mal's other love interests. Lol.
The problem might bethe normal part.
Shrugs. That isn't a problem. Mal does NOT want a normal girl. Mal wants ALINA. All parts of her :)
Vindictev wrote: "I think she's doing everything like a normal teenage girl would. She's still growing."Yes, that's about the only excuse I can give her. But I can't help wanting something more than "normal" from a heroine in a fantasy series. In a THIRD book, mind you, not the first one.
I was responding to Vindictev's first two paragraphs about Alina's being infuriating and her behaving like a normal teenage girl.
I didn't literally mean "normal", but how it's normal for teenage heroines to doubt themselves. I should have worded that better. Lol.Maybe she'll change once she gets the firebird. She still isn't strong enough to face the Darkling yet, so I can understand why she's doubting herself right now.
In that R&R excerpt, she sounds really confident compared to how she sounded in the beginning. Not to mention that she's facing the Darkling, so she must have some power upgrade since she said facing him was terrifying in the 1st chapter of R&R. Do ya'll think she got the firebird then?
Vindictev wrote: "I didn't literally mean "normal", but how it's normal for teenage heroines to have a little doubt about themselves."I meant that as well. Because the fact that she is a Grisha and has powers kind of contradicts "normal".
And no matter how I try, I still don't get why she needs to "face" the Darkling, as in fight him. They could work together instead, stop the war, control the Fold, and once they get the Firebird, destroy the fold, in time.
I also suspect that Alina might BE the Firebird. I know most people think it's Mal, but it could be Alina herself too.
There was also the line in S&S: "Firebird WAS Ravka". Maybe that's a hint hidden in plain sight? Maybe the Firebird stands as a metaphor for some part of Ravka.
Natalia wrote: "And no matter how I try, I still don't get why she needs to "face" the Darkling, as in fight him. They could work together instead, stop the war, control the Fold, and once they get the Firebird, destroy the fold, in time.Because Alina and the Darkling have a different way of thinking. They have different opinions about how the Shadow Fold should be handled.
Alina thinks it's wrong for the Darkling to expand the fold to spread fear. She thinks it should be eliminated entirely.
Differing opinions are mainly the reason why war even starts.
If Alina didn't have a problem with the Darkling killing innocent people, maybe she would have cooperated with him. I don't know.I don't think she's infuriating for not working with the Darkling though. His way of handling the Fold is unethical. I'd feel guilty helping him with that too if I was in her situation.
Vindictev wrote: "Because Alina and the Darkling have a different way of thinking. They have different opinions about how the Shadow Fold should be handled."Vindictev, is it surprising that I agree with you here? LOL
However, I still think Alina makes a poor general. It is literally like putting a teenage inexperienced girl in command of an army of soldiers.
I think all the characters in this series need to learn how to communicate with each other, because some of the worst decisions were made for lack of communication.
And first and foremost, Alina needs to stop making those important decisions when she lacks knowledge on the subject.
Vindictev wrote: "I don't think she's infuriating for not working with the Darkling though. His way of handling the Fold is unethical. I'd feel guilty helping him with that too if I was in her situation."Yes, his way is ruthless, no one is denying it.
If you were in charge, how would you handle the situation about the Fold and the wars with bordering countries?
Natalia wrote: "However, I still think Alina makes a poor general. It is literally like putting a teenage inexperienced girl in command of an army of soldiers."That's literally what it is though.
Alina has no experience or skills as a General. She's a teenage girl who is automatically given a huge burden and responsibility to save Ravka when she has no proper preparation or experience to lead an army.
She was basically handed a very stressful task just after she found out she was a Sun Summoner, and she doesn't know how to handle it.
That's why I don't blame her for the choices she's made. She's going by her morals, and I can't blame her for her poor upbringing and lack of military leadership when she wasn't raised to command an army, much less rule a country.
Natalia wrote: "Yes, his way is ruthless, no one is denying it.If you were in charge, how would you handle the situation about the Fold and the wars with bordering countries?
If I were in charge, I would have eradicated the fold to get the trade back into flow again in Ravka, since the fold's interruption with the trade negatively affected the country.
After that, I would have dealt with the war with the neighboring countries.
I don't see the reason to expand the Fold. That's just making it worse, and who knows if it would have gone out of control 'til the point of obliterating Ravka. That's just being reckless, IMHO.
The way I understand it, a lot of you hate Alina and think she makes bad decisions because she isn't with the Darkling. Because she do NOT approve with him torturing people. Because she do NOT approve with what he did with the fold. That he made it BIGGER not smaller. And because of that you guys hate her? I don't understand you, lol.I would hate Alina and think the books weren't worth reading if she DID agree with the Darkling. If she forgave him for torture. If she agreed with making the Fold bigger and killing all those people. If she had agreed with the Darkling on all of that, I would have hated her. Because she wouldn't have been a good character. She wouldn't have been nice.
Sure, she might agree with him later on in R&R. But if that happens, it better happen because the Darkling changes. Or Alina changes and become evil like him, lol. But so far she does not agree with him. And so far I love her.
But I do agree with you guys that she isn't a leader. Sure, she do some bad things. But what can you expect? She is 17(?). She didn't grow up as a leader. And now suddenly she is. She doesn't know the best way of doing things. But I do believe she is trying her best :)
Vindictev wrote: "If I were in charge, I would have eradicated the fold to get the trade back into flow again in Ravka, since the fold's interruption with the trade negatively affected the country."Yes, no one denies the Fold must be eradicated. However you (or Alina, since we readers know just as much as she does) are not sure HOW it can be eradicated and (later on in the story) IF it can be done without bringing all the amplifiers together.
And you need knowledge on how it was created in the first place to know how to destroy it.
What we know is the Fold was created by the Darkling (and even that we don't know for sure, since Baghra had the same power. Just saying). Okay. But HOW? Was it intentional or was it a side effect of some experiment/quest for power.
If it was possible for Alina to destroy the fold even with two amplifiers, she could have done it while they travelled on the Hummingbird.
So here goes my first complaint: Alina should have talked with the Darkling and Baghra about hows and whys of the matter.
And neither the Darkling, nor Baghra deigned to explain anything to her, and that's their fault. They might not have trusted her completely at the time, but like the Darkling pointed out later, she wasn't exactly deserving of his trust. A couple of treasonous words - and she runs off.
Unlike you, I don't believe he would have "enslaved" her, had she not run away.
Natalia wrote: "Vindictev wrote: "If I were in charge, I would have eradicated the fold to get the trade back into flow again in Ravka, since the fold's interruption with the trade negatively affected the country...."You say this: "Unlike you, I don't believe he would have "enslaved" her, had she not run away." but that is only because you still think the Darkling is a good person, hih. I don't blame you for that. But I just cannot agree. I still see him as such an evil person. Sigh.
Yeah, Alina should have talked to them. But I'm also glad she ran away. And I do think the Darkling would have enslaved her, lol. Especially if he explained what Baghra said. If it was true what Baghra said. Which it still might be. Because he did make the Fold bigger. How do you think the Darkling would have reacted if Alina DIDN'T want to help him, and told him so? I don't think it would have been pretty. Sigh.
I don't know if it is possible for Alina to destroy the Fold. But even so. The Darkling never should have made it bigger. And I don't think Alina would/will ever agree with him on that. :)
Carina wrote: "You say this: "Unlike you, I don't believe he would have "enslaved" her, had she not run away." but that is only because you still think the Darkling is a good person,"I don't think he is a GOOD person, nor do I think he is EVIL. He has his good and bad moments, and I take him for what he is.
Yes, maybe he still WOULD have enslaved her to make the fold bigger anyway. We can't know that, but he sure as hell is not used to being denied.
Vindictev wrote: "After that, I would have dealt with the war with the neighboring countries.I don't see the reason to expand the Fold. That's just making it worse, and who knows if it would have gone out of control 'til the point of obliterating Ravka. That's just being reckless, IMHO. "
To the best of my knowledge, Ravka was at war with the neighboring countries for who knows how many years. More than 10, that's for sure.
So far the King wasn't able to deal with it, and WAY MORE people than inhabited that hapless village were killed in battles. Basically, boys and even girls were raised as cannon meat in Ravka.
If things could be resolved peacefully, by that time they already would have been, don't you think?
So how would YOU deal with the wars?
Using the Fold as a weapon to intimidate other countries was not the best thing out there, but fear is a powerful driving force to motivate people to behave. It could have worked.
In some countries (in real life) where hands get chopped off for stealing, no one commits such crimes, because everyone is afraid. Cruel? Yes! But it serves its purpose.
I really wish the Darkling wouldn't have obliterated the whole village, but he probably thought he needed to make a point for everyone to see he was serious. Or that's how I understand his actions.
Natalia wrote: "Vindictev wrote: "After that, I would have dealt with the war with the neighboring countries.I don't see the reason to expand the Fold. That's just making it worse, and who knows if it would have..."
Well.. I kind of agree. I'm not sure. But the way I think the Darkling should have acted? He should have tried to CLOSE the Fold. Because I still think it might have been possible. It could have been possible to even make it a little bit smaller. That could have ended the war. I don't approve of killing those poor people :( It isn't fair. Sigh.
Carina wrote: "It could have been possible to even make it a little bit smaller. That could have ended the war."What war do you mean?
Carina wrote: "I don't approve of killing those poor people :( It isn't fair. Sigh. "
*sigh* Carina, I don't APPROVE of it either. I think hardly anyone does. But we see him as a complex character who has done bad and good and everything in between. You don't have to approve in order to try to understand another's POV and frame of mind.
Natalia wrote: "Carina wrote: "It could have been possible to even make it a little bit smaller. That could have ended the war."What war do you mean?
Carina wrote: "I don't approve of killing those poor people ..."
I mean the war you guys are talking about? With the other countries. Probably.
Hmm. I don't blame you for seeing him that way :) I just won't ever understand it, lol. Because the way I read the book, the Darkling hasn't done good things. He has mostly done just bad things. And we won't know for sure unless we read from his point of view. :)
@ Carina: How making the Fold smaller would make the wars with other countries stop? The whole point of making it bigger was to stop the wars by intimidating the other countries into submission. What would you call doing "good" things in that place and time anyway? And who did those good things, in your opinion?
Natalia wrote: "@ Carina: How making the Fold smaller would make the wars with other countries stop? The whole point of making it bigger was to stop the wars by intimidating the other countries into submission. ..."
I think the wars would stop if the Fold was gone. If they made it smaller, the others would see that they could remove all of it as well. And wasn't that the point? Removing the Fold? It is easier to stop the war if the Fold isn't there. At least, that is how I see things :) I think. Feeling a bit tired, lol.
I'm just going to say that I don't know, lol. And I don't really care that much either :p What I care about is that the Darkling did things wrong. And I don't like the things he did. It could have been done differently. Or not at all.
I'm pretty sure the Darkling would have still enslaved Alina if she refused to help him. Hell, she was already forced to go with him to the Little Palace after they found out she was a Sun Summoner.There is no way Alina would have approved of killing that village of innocent people with him to "prove a point". She was horrified just looking at it happen before her eyes, and feeling helpless no less. She would have run away from him regardless.
It gets annoying when you don't have anything more to argue so keeps saying the same "the killed innocents" or "he is bad" or "he is a psycho". Well, Alina killed Grishas in S&B and I don't see anyone saying she is bad. Besides, I'm sure Mal would kill innocent people oir Grishas if it was needed so at the end, they are all bad.
I thought we would talk about the first chapter and not again about all the couple stuff.Anyway, what if the apparat is the worm, itself, prisoner in a body ? And he wants the three amplifiers to free himself and control the fold ? Because, it's obvious he has a big plan.
@Mirou, we are not talking about the couple stuff, never even brought up the romance in our latest argument. We are discussing the characters outside any "shipping business" and why some of us disapprove of Alina.Possibly. I need to think more about Apparat.
Andresa wrote: "It gets annoying when you don't have anything more to argue so keeps saying the same "the killed innocents" or "he is bad" or "he is a psycho". Well, Alina killed Grishas in S&B and I don't see any..."Seriously? The Darkling is the ONLY ONE who has killed and tortured innocent people. Of course we are going to talk about it! Not my fault most people overlook it. I'm allowed to share my opinions about it if I want to. Confused. Who did Alina kill? She didn't kill a single person. Yes, she left the people on the skiff thing at the end of Shadow and Bone. To save herself and Mal. To try to kill the Darkling. And yes, it was a bad thing to do. And she feels AWFUL about it. I doubt the Darkling regret the ENTIRE VILLAGE that he MURDERED. There is a difference there, just so you know :)
"I'm sure Mal would" There is a difference there too!! Mal HASN'T killed innocent people. He HAS NOT tortured anyone. So you should not go there. So no. Mal is not bad.
Mirou wrote: "I thought we would talk about the first chapter and not again about all the couple stuff.Anyway, what if the apparat is the worm, itself, prisoner in a body ? And he wants the three amplifiers ..."
Shrugs. I was discussing the chapter at first :) But yess. That would be pretty awesome, to be honest. Though I'm not sure if it is correct. I don't know yet what to think of the Apparat. Hm. But I do think he want the Firebird for himself.
Carina wrote: "I'm just going to say that I don't know, lol. And I don't really care that much either :p What I care about is that the Darkling did things wrong. And I don't like the things he did. It could have been done differently. Or not at all. "Vindictev and Carina, I agree with Andresa here.
Suggest your way to make things right, based on what we talked about today.
It could have been done differently HOW?
Vindictev wrote: "I didn't literally mean "normal", but how it's normal for teenage heroines to doubt themselves. I should have worded that better. Lol.Maybe she'll change once she gets the firebird. She still isn't strong enough to face the Darkling yet, so I can understand why she's doubting herself right now. "
That's funny, 'cause for me "the problem" (it's not really a problem, but what I don't like about her) is not that she's doubting herself/her belief, but that she *isn't*. I think she isn't 'cause she is scared of what doubting herself/her belief could lead her to, but stil.
Natalia wrote: "Carina wrote: "I'm just going to say that I don't know, lol. And I don't really care that much either :p What I care about is that the Darkling did things wrong. And I don't like the things he did...."Sigh. I have already said many times before how I think it could have been done different. Even today. Making the Fold bigger? THE WORST THING he could have done. He could have made the Fold smaller. He could have gotten rid of the Fold. He could have done NOTHING with the Fold until he had the rest of the amplifiers. There are SO MANY options that he could have chosen besides killing those people. Just saying. He could have tried TALKING. Like you said Alina should have done with the Darkling. This was the first time the Darkling had contact with the leaders, wasn't it? Because he wasn't a leader himself before. The King was that. So yeah. I think there are a lot of other things he could have done. There are ALWAYS another option besides killing and torturing.
Natalia wrote: "Carina wrote: "I'm just going to say that I don't know, lol. And I don't really care that much either :p What I care about is that the Darkling did things wrong. And I don't like the things he did...."But anyway. I am not a leader. I am not involved in war things. So I don't know how to make things better. But I DO know that things do not get better with killing and torturing. Sure, it could work, but it isn't right. It isn't right at all.
Yeah the Darkling could have fixed the fold and just threatened the other countries by saying he'll unleash it on their country.But it might not be as quick or efficient as the way he did it.
Carina wrote: "He could have made the Fold smaller. He could have gotten rid of the Fold."Why are you so sure HE COULD have made it smaller or gotten rid of it? Even Alina with TWO amplifiers couldn't, and she is the Sun Summoner.
Doing NOTHING is more like an option here, but I guess one gets so sick of decades of wars that he just wanted them stopped, at any cost.
Why do you think it was the first time he had contacted the leaders? Such idea is mind-boggling to me, really. Do you think the Darkling is that dumb? Give him some credit!
Natalia wrote: "Vindictev wrote: "If I were in charge, I would have eradicated the fold to get the trade back into flow again in Ravka, since the fold's interruption with the trade negatively affected the country...."One thing I for sure wouldn't do was expand the Fold.
Who in their right mind would expand something as dangerous and unstable as the Shadow Fold if they don't know how to destroy it?
What the Darkling did was not only reckless, but it was dumb, and if he did know how to destroy it, then shame on him for enslaving Alina, killing all those innocent people, and also putting Ravka at an even greater risk by making the Fold worse than it already was.
I'm not sure to understand how you can think he could have made the Fold disappear with 1 amplifier, when Alina with 2 didn't even try it.I mean, I get you thinking making it bigger was a bad idea, but to assume he could make it go away... I think that is a big assumption to make.
I don't see how destroying the fold will resolve the wars. Destroying the fold certainly won't stop Fjerda from burning their Grisha, or Shu Han from cutting them up into pieces. We need more information on WHY they have been at war, and why other countries treat Grisha like monsters. (I don't think the Darkling is from Ravka, but I think he came there because Ravka might have been more open to Grisha)Since the fold prevents Ravka (and only Ravka) from crossing the sea, I wonder if the Darkling planned on moving it somewhere else so that he can use it if need be, but it's not in the way to cross the sea.
According to chapter one, "He (Nikolai) struck along the northern border, bombing supply lines, forcing the Shadow King to renew trade."
Which means the Darkling's threat tactic DID work. He had opened trade with Fjerda, which is at the northern border of Ravka. But Nikolai's bombing forces the Darkling to go back to traveling across the fold, which to me is not a good tactic. As I said, I get why Nikolai is trying to give the Darkling hell, but does he realize the Darkling succeeded in opening trade to a country they haven't had trade with in years?
Vindictev wrote: "Natalia wrote: "Vindictev wrote: "If I were in charge, I would have eradicated the fold to get the trade back into flow again in Ravka, since the fold's interruption with the trade negatively affec..."Well, one theory could be he knows that Alina + 3 amplifiers + him being an human amplifier can destroy it.
But he needs time to get the 3 amplifiers, so he decides on something to stop the war *NOW* while he searches/puts together the missing pieces of his puzzle.
Vindictev, I think the Darkling is anything but dumb)))We all lack knowledge about the Fold, the Darkling and the past.
But while you and Carina always assume the worst about him, me and some other people have faith and try to withhold our judgement just yet.
I don't think he is a GOOD person, nor do I think he is EVIL.I agree with this. As a king, I think his goal is not to be a good or bad person--it's to be a good KING. To be a good king will mean there will be times when he does morally questionable things. Most of his decisions are not based on morals. They're based on strategy, tactic, and for the greater good of Ravka. Ravka comes first.
Lys wrote: "I'm not sure how you can think he could have made the Fold disappear with 1 amplifier, when Alina with 2 didn't even try it. I mean, I get you thinking making it bigger was a bad idea, but to assum..."The Darkling wouldn't seem like such an evil asshole if he waited to get Alina her three amplifiers. Then asked her for her cooperation to attempt at eradicating the fold.
Instead he enslaved Alina, used her powers against her will, and expanded the fold.
When the Darkling preaches about how he's trying to save Ravka to Alina, I find that complete bullshit because you don't go expanding something you regret making into something even worse.
"When the Darkling preaches about how he's trying to save Ravka to Alina, I find that complete bullshit because you don't go expanding something you regret making into something even worse."THIS! So tell me, all you Darkling lovers, how do you defend that?
You're right. This guy is hundreds of years old and he can't think of simply asking somebody for help? A lot could have been avoided.
Vindictev wrote: "Lys wrote: "I'm not sure how you can think he could have made the Fold disappear with 1 amplifier, when Alina with 2 didn't even try it. I mean, I get you thinking making it bigger was a bad idea, ..."How long could it take to find all three? How many lives could be killed in their wars in the meanwhile?
(They are rethorical questions: no-one knows, but it's to say I think we lack to many infos to make such an one-sided judgement on him.)
Well, I don't think most usurps are pleasant ones lol. It IS taking a throne by fo..."
Yeah, and because the Darkling had taken the throne by force then the people instantly brands him as "the evil", "the enemy", "the villain", despite the previous good-for-nothing King.