The Grishaverse discussion
Ruin and Rising
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DISCUSS THE FIRST CHAPTER OF RUIN AND RISING
WinterRose wrote: "Because remember, Leigh did say that The Too Clever Fox might foreshadow Sturmhond/Nikolai's ending."WHAT? Where did she say that??? Well, the fact that the story is about a fox means that it is about him. But I don't think Leigh would make it as easy as that. Also, I have the feeling that characters in the Grisha story are all referenced in "genderbent" form in "Too clever-fox."
I am not saying the fox is purely Alina, but there is something in the way it describes how ugly the fox used to be and then how it changed that makes me think of Alina's self-image, every time I read it.
No doubt the fox reminds us of Nikolai at times, but I think it's not that simple.
I mean, there could be an even darker reading here but I doubt Leigh would take that route in R&R, but just in case:
The siblings can easily be Vasili and Nikolai. While Vasili gets all the glory and Nikolai is "invisible" living in his shadow, it is actually Nikolai doing all the dirty work. That's exactly what's going on between the brother and the sister. Everyone things Vasily is the one who's calling the shots, because they don't really know Nikolai, that is.
The dark part is that while the girl is lovely and charming, she's also deadly. I don't think Nikolai wants the throne as bad as to want to kill Alina, and this is not GoT, but it may foreshadow a betrayal.
@WinterRose that's a really good idea! I Never really thought of that. @Cari i know what you mean, Alina kind of gives Nikolai the 'benefit of the doubt' while continuously locking herself up in the presence of Mal (i.e. withholding information) and constantly sees the Darkling as a villain without really a second thought. I mean, she says in s&s how she shouldn't trust the prince, but then doesn't really listen to herself.
I'd find it pretty unusual to have her end up with a character who only came midway through the series.
Lol I could have sworn I posted it. I think someone asked if they needed to read the novella's to understand the trilogy, or something like that. At the end of Leigh's response she said something like "If you're asking if The Too Clever Fox foreshadow's Sturmhond's ending..maybe."Which I thought was an odd answer because the person WAS NOT asking that. :P
I was thinking the imagery was due to Sturmhond's appearance being sort of..not attractive. His nose was crooked and he was described as having ruddy hair like a fox, I believe. (And then when he becomes Nikolai, he looks better.)
@Melanie- Yes, I don't think it is a likely ending. But sometimes I just wonder :)@WinterRose & Melanie
I think that Sturmhond was probably meant to die because he would be facing the Darkling but then he somehow turned into Nikolai in Leigh's mind and now as the "lost" prince, there was a whole new world of possibilities to explore, and he lived. Also, Leigh said she liked Nikolai's "I got this" personality. I was reading something where it said his sense of humor either got her through dark parts of the book or made her change the dark tone of the book, I forget.
WinterRose wrote: "I was thinking the imagery was due to Sturmhond's appearance being sort of..not attractive. His nose was crooked and he was described as having ruddy hair like a fox, I believe. (And then when he becomes Nikolai, he looks better."Well, but in the end the fox stays with the bird, and the bird knows the fox was in love with the girl but says nothing because the bird is not only clever but wise.
The bird and the fox are close friends. The bird does not recriminate the fox for having chosen the girl but rather is glad to end up with him. It is vague but I get the impression that there might be something (romantic?) going on between them (bird and fox).
Does the bird remind you of Alina or a possible ending with ALina in which she saves Nikolai and stays with him even though she knew he loved somebody else?
That bird is a lot like Mal to me, through and through.
I was thinking of it without romantic subtext. Rather than the fox loving the girl; just that the fox got tricked by the girl, and the girl was the real villain. (Where I think the Apparat will be the real villain, thus tricking everyone.)Part of me doesn't trust Nikolai, but I don't know if he'd be the girl in that scenario in the sense of being the villain. Since the girl was kind of the villain in that story.
The fox is ultimately a master at being sly and clever, for which is nothing like Alina, lol.
I don't think Nikolai is evil either. I just think he might make a decision along the way that might disappoint Alina.Well, then I don't know. What's the foreshadowing of Nikolai's end if he is the fox? Gone somewhere?
I agree the Apparat has more possibilities as the villain but then... according to your reading Nikolai and the Apparat have some sort of understanding that may go awry?Something that's unclear to me if whether Nikolai knew of the twins' "allegiance" to the Apparat? I am under the impression that nothing escapes him (Nikolai). Then, if he knew, did he just wait to see where that may lead? Had he talked to the Apparat as well?
We can speculate, but we don't for sure where did his understanding of the Saints' book and the amplifiers come from. It may be study, observation or the Apparat, really. Nikolai is incredibly well informed about this allegedly obscure topic.
It's funny because at some point the Darkling says something along the lines of "I like to think I know everything that goes on in Ravka." Sometimes I'm under the impression that Nikolai is better informed than he is.
I was thinking Alina might save him, and they end up together (in the sense that everyone else is practically dead or gone). Not necessarily a happy ending, but "we're broken but we're alive." If that makes sense, lol.Though I still can't shake the whole "A dark heart. A pure soul. A love that will last forever" thing off. That slogan was on the UK's cover, and in the trailer. Be pretty misleading to market the book that way then squash that relationship.
It could have said "A dark heart. A pure soul. A bond that will last forever" but it says "love." Which does give off romantic vibes.
Something that's unclear to me if whether Nikolai knew of the twins' "allegiance" to the Apparat
I wondered this too. Or is Nikolai working with the Apparat too? This would definitely be a twist, and something Alina will probably not excuse because it's becoming clear she's not on board with the Apparat.
I can't remember if Nikolai spoke about the Apparat in S&S or not.
Well, I think it is unlikely that Alina will end up with Nikolai. While I'd like to think the UK marketing is meaningful, as a rule I don't trust entertainment marketing much: they mostly give a target audience what they think the audience wants to see/read.That said, I hope they're right.
Also, you're right that Alina is definitely not who you would think of as a clever fox but the cleverness of this fox in this story is mostly its ability to escape capture. In that, both Alina and Nikolai are quite good.
WinterRose wrote: "I can't remember if Nikolai spoke about the Apparat in S&S or not."Interestingly enough, I don't think he did.
That would definitely be a betrayal that Alina would probably find hard to forgive: if Nikolai is in line with the Apparat, it will be a huge blow to her.
I wonder, if that happened, will Nikolai go as far as trying to return her to the Apparat or trying to put her again under his control in some way. He could do it as a political maneuver: he becomes king and the Apparat returns to his place as part of the royal court. The Apparat seems to have a good number of men and resources too.
What does the Apparat seem to want? I'm not sure on that. (I think he's going to sacrifice Alina or something crazy like that) I remember the Darkling cornering Alina at the party, saying things were moving fast. Does he want to destroy the Darkling? Did he start panicking when he realized the Darkling found the stag?Any chance the Apparat wants to summon this giant worm? lol But needs a sacrifice? One virgin sun summoner coming up.
Wasn't he girl in the story always about to visit a mysterious someone when the fox would go talk to her?I know it sounds weird but I feel it my bones: Nikolai is the girl. (Not in a literal "he's a murderer" way, though.)
The fox in the story is not so clever. It is good at escaping and overconfident. It is naive in not paying attention to the girl's warning. It is the girl who is clever and cunning.
Wasn't he girl in the story always about to visit a mysterious someone when the fox would go talk to her?I can't remember. :/
I don't think Nikolai will end up being evil, but I wonder if his ideal future will clash with what Alina thinks is right. (But then I can't shake the way he incorporated Grisha and non-Grisha, which I took as a sign for the future. I figured they'd get rid of the first and second, and combine them, which Nikolai is already doing.)
So I don't know. I can see it going either way. Maybe he'll turn out to be an antagonist, or maybe he'll be a hero.
I've found sadly that sometimes fans come up with more interesting plot lines than what actually ends up happening lol.
WinterRose wrote: "What does the Apparat seem to want? I'm not sure on that. (I think he's going to sacrifice Alina or something crazy like that) I remember the Darkling cornering Alina at the party, saying things we..."On the surface, I would say he wants power, a sort of theocracy, in which he has the Saint and controls access to her, and the people will do anything for the false hope he sells. (There is someone like him in GoT and he's a force to reckon with. I think he appears in book 4 or 5, I forget.)
It is unclear whether he's really pious or not. Since Tamar and Tolya abandon him, my guess is he is not. Being someone who worships "the underground" (it was weird how reverential he seemed of the resourcefulness of rats) it doesn't seem he's really interested in Alina's powers (ie, the sun/light).
It's interesting that his order is described as priest-scholars or something similar, but they have completely neglected their library. Then, they do not seem like scholars in the same sense as David.
You know though, I know this story is supposed to tie into Nikolai, but the lesson is that loneliness is the trap, right? When I think of loneliness, I think of the Darkling. (The first time I read it, I had to keep reminding myself this was not about the Darkling because Koja reminded me of him a bit.) And the bird reminded me of Baghra.
Perched in the branches of the birch tree, she twittered her laughter. “Not so clever, are you, Koja? No one will have you to visit and you are covered in scabs. You are even uglier than before.”
Koja was untroubled. “I can bear ugliness,” he said. “I find the one thing I cannot live with is death.”
--
“Lula,” he said, “fly into town and see what you can learn.”
The nightingale put her little beak in the air. “You will ask me, Koja, and do it nicely, or I will fly someplace warm and leave you to your worrying.”
--
Later that night, Lula fluffed her wings in frustration. “You learned nothing!"
--
The fox and the nightingale made a quiet life together. A lesser creature might have held Koja’s mistakes against him, might have mocked him for his pride. But Lula was not only clever. She was wise.
That last quote especially. We know the Darkling's pride can be his weakness. And Baghra is certainly wise and clever, and we know she loves her son despite his mistakes.
I honestly didn't read the fox and Lula's relationship as a romantic one, I saw it as more platonic.
That is certainly an interesting take on it. Bahgra and the Darkling... It could be... what does it say about Nikolai then?That quote, the one about scabs and ugliness reminded me of Genya too. :P I don't think it's about her though.
Do you think the story is about loneliness? I agree I also associate the Darkling with loneliness. And I like your thought about pride being his weakness. It's a good way to explain some of the problems between ALina and him.
To me, is a story about being overconfident and getting into trouble because of it.
Lol I know it says nothing of Nikolai, but it just reminded me more of the Darkling and Baghra than it did him.Hm, perhaps both? There really wasn't a reason to doubt that the brother was the hunter, so I don't know if the fox was overconfident in this scenario. (Previous scenarios yes.) And loneliness is what lead to his capture. He was so good at escaping, but the lesson was that no one can escape loneliness.
Do we know what Little Knife is supposed to be about?
Well, I mean, the girl does try to warn him that seeing her is not a good idea. Isn't that how it goes? And the fox decides to ignore that advice. The fox doesn't really know what the danger is, but knows there is danger and decides to proceed anyway because he is confident on his abilities of getting out of trouble. Or because he's too naive to think such a lovely girl can't surely pose a threat? Or both.
WinterRose wrote: "Do we know what Little Knife is supposed to be out?"It will be out after R&R is out, last time I checked. It would have been fun to have it before to speculate. It should say something about Alina of course, but if Leigh continues having novellas follow the same trend, it should be Mal's turn now as well.
I am not sure if "Fox" has to do with the Darkling. It may be as well. But "Witch of Ravka" is, to me, very much about him. And heartbreaking too.The stepmother in the end just goes away, grateful that someone took her burden away, her sacrifice a secret to everyone but the girl.
I wonder if this foreshadows the Darkling's end in any way.
I'm ashamed to say that, being such a fan of this series, I haven't read any of the short stories except The Tailor. I'm starting now, so I can understand everyone's references and discuss.Speaking of Nikolai, I don't think it was him who Leigh initially planned to kill off in S&S, and then let him live.
Somehow, I think it was Genya.
Either way, I don't consider him a romantic interest for Alina by any means. However, she may end up on the throne with him at the end of R&R. Maybe the wedding that was mentioned here at some point is between Alina and Nikolai.
wedding? what wedding??Sorry I think I missed some of the conversations again. Sometimes you guys are very fast-paced
Vindictev wrote: "Reading all the posts in here have made me wonder why people are more threatened over Mal, the human man with no grisha powers or royal blood, than Nikolai, the charismatic prince/privateer.It's ..."
Hmm, if there wasn't a Darkling in the story, I would probably be satisfied with Mal as endgame, as I like him better than Nikolai.
But since the Darkling IS in the story, there wasn't really any choice to make. For me, it is a story about the beauty and the beast (somewhat like Cruel Beauty)
Meida wrote: "wedding? what wedding??Sorry I think I missed some of the conversations again. Sometimes you guys are very fast-paced"
Well, maybe not a wedding exactly, it is just speculation. But Leigh mentioned somewhere that Ravkans use wedding rings and that topic will come up in R&R at some point.
Natalia wrote: "Meida wrote: "wedding? what wedding??Sorry I think I missed some of the conversations again. Sometimes you guys are very fast-paced"
Well, maybe not a wedding exactly, it is just speculation. Bu..."
Natalia wrote: "Meida wrote: "wedding? what wedding??
Sorry I think I missed some of the conversations again. Sometimes you guys are very fast-paced"
Well, maybe not a wedding exactly, it is just speculation. Bu..."
huh there will be wedding discussion in R&R? okay, I don't remember Leigh mentioned anything about it but... *squeals maniacally*
*clears my throat* well if it's gonna happen to Alina but not with the Darkling... do you think he will let it happen? I got a feeling there will be another phenomenal crashing like in S&S again
@ Meida: here you have it http://lbardugo.tumblr.com/post/46901...It may not be a wedding, just a discussion, and it may not be about Alina at all. So no panicking!
And no, the Darkling won't let it happen. Mal might let it slide eventually if Alina married someone else, but not the Darkling.
the way she answered it in the tumblr could make anybody panic you know hahaha
I'm not sure how to begin commenting, lol. I won't comment on all of it, as there is so much I don't agree with :p BUT. I LOVE watching you all discuss things. Despite not agreeing :D It is fun seeing what you all think. But now. A few things that I'm confused about; as in I don't understand it. And a few things I agree with :D First. Vindictev. I agree with this part.
"The two other guys are inhumane and are criminals in their own right. Not to mention that they want to use Alina for some selfish reason, like to take the throne and to control the fold to have control over the countries." I feel like Nikolai and the Darkling want Alina for selfish reasons. For her power. I do NOT think ANY OF THEM would have wanted her if she had no powers.
But Mal. Mal wants HER. He want Alina for who she is deep inside. Not just her powers. Which is why I feel they should end up together. <3 And, of course, Mal is just too adorable, lol.
But then. Cari. You said this: "So yes, Mal is no threat compared to Nikolai sadly, not by a mile." I don't agree at all. Doesn't it matter to you at all that Mal LOVES Alina? That Alina loves Mal? That they actually want to be together? As I said above, Mal wants Alina for who she is. Not for her powers.
Carina wrote: "And, of course, Mal is just too adorable, lol."It is exactly the "adorable"part that puts me off. I don't do adorable in most books if there is an option. However, I remember a few exceptions (Peeta in The Hunger Games series and Seth in R. Mead's Succubus series). These were quite the adorable guys I was rooting for.
Chemistry is a difficult thing to explain :P
Natalia wrote: "Carina wrote: "And, of course, Mal is just too adorable, lol."It is exactly the "adorable"part that puts me off. I don't do adorable in most books if there is an option. However, I remember a few..."
lol. I love that Mal is adorable. I love that he is honest. And loyal. And strong. And brave. I love all the good things about him. Even the small bad parts. Like his jealousy. But aw. I'm sorry you don't really like that in books :\ But yess. Peeta. I love Peeta. And I still kind of hate Katniss for how much she hurt him. She did not deserve him.
No Carina, for me it's good thing that they love each other and they have each other.But if Alina also has a feeling for the other guy (most likely the Darkling) so..? wouldn't it hurt Mal too? it would, obviously.
Meida wrote: "No Carina, for me it's good thing that they love each other and they have each other.But if Alina also has a feeling for the other guy (most likely the Darkling) so..? wouldn't it hurt Mal too? i..."
I know it would hurt Mal. It is most likely hurting Mal. But I don't think she LOVES any of the other guys. Sure, she might have feelings for them. But I think she only loves Mal. We'll see in Ruin and Rising :)
Carina wrote: "Natalia wrote: "Carina wrote: "And, of course, Mal is just too adorable, lol."It is exactly the "adorable"part that puts me off. I don't do adorable in most books if there is an option. However, ..."
I love Peeta too, and I hate Katniss for hurting Peeta so much in the book. That's why I was half-glad when Peeta tried to crush her windpipe haha oh but wait their union in the end can be a good example that the female main heroine doesn't always have to end up with her childhood friend. However, this doesn't mean I will not accept Alina & Mal, even thought I will do it half-heartedly
Well, I do not know anything about the Hunger Games, so I will say this instead. I have this friend to whom I loaned book one (and to whom I will loan book two once I get it back from another friend). Anyway, this friend does not really like the Darkling but also thinks he is the best match for Alina. I found this interesting because that is quite different from the usual here online.
Elvina wrote: "Well, I do not know anything about the Hunger Games, so I will say this instead. I have this friend to whom I loaned book one (and to whom I will loan book two once I get it back from another frien..."Well, I have a friend who thinks so too. She doesn't particularly like the Darkling, but thinks that if Alina is to end up with someone at all, it should be him. Another part why Mal's presence is pissing me off sometimes is that he IS in the way. He and Alina cling to each other for dear life, and that kind of ruins the story for me.
Alina and the Darkling are Yin and Yang, she could be the light to his darkness and balance him out. He would retrieve a bit of his humanity back, together they would destroy the Fold, rule Ravka as king and queen and live happily millennia after.
*dreamy sigh*
Natalia wrote: "Elvina wrote: "Well, I do not know anything about the Hunger Games, so I will say this instead. I have this friend to whom I loaned book one (and to whom I will loan book two once I get it back fro..."
I agree thoroughly.
I agree thoroughly.
@ Elvina: I know, right? :)And before people rush in and start pointing out that this is not the Darkling's thread :P I'm going to add this :
If the Darkling and Alina ever had any children, just imagine what their potential powers can be! This could be so interesting and totally worth a spin-off series ))))
I would not want to make any of those hypothetical kids angry. With both sets, or even just one set, making them angry sounds like a very bad idea.
I don't remember if a kid born of both Grisha parents with different powers can get both powers just imagine a Heartreanders that can summon fire :)
So I'm rereading the prologue again.I wonder why the monster's name was Izumrud (emerald). Names in this trilogy always have meaning. I looked up the emerald lore, but there are just so many things that I get lost.
In any case, Leigh wouldn't place some random creature in the prologue.
Any ideas?
WinterRose wrote: "Though I still can't shake the whole "A dark heart. A pure soul. A love that will last forever" thing off. That slogan was on the UK's cover, and in the trailer. Be pretty misleading to market the book that way then squash that relationship. It could have said "A dark heart. A pure soul. A bond that will last forever" but it says "love." Which does give off romantic vibes. "I don't think that only applies to two people. I think that slogan means:
"A dark heart" - The Darkling or Nikolai
"A pure soul" - Alina
(I honestly wouldn't say Alina is pure, tbh but oh well.)
"A love that will last forever." - Mal and Alina
(Alina mentioned how she would wait for Mal forever, and Mal mentioned how he wanted to be with Alina every day. Plus Alina's love life happens to center around her relationship with Mal for the past two books. She hasn't shown any romantic feelings toward anyone other than Mal, unless you count attraction in S&B but I'm talking about "love", so yeah.)
Cari wrote: "Well, I think it is unlikely that Alina will end up with Nikolai. While I'd like to think the UK marketing is meaningful, as a rule I don't trust entertainment marketing much: they mostly give a target audience what they think the audience wants to see/read."Same. It's the UK marketing it too. Maybe if it was on all the book covers, I would take it more seriously.
Vindictev wrote: "WinterRose wrote: "Though I still can't shake the whole "A dark heart. A pure soul. A love that will last forever" thing off. That slogan was on the UK's cover, and in the trailer. Be pretty mislea..."You must remember that in chapter 1 Alina thinks about the fact that someone else than her should be with Mal.
Here is the prof:
"I turned away and followed the Apparat, hurrying my steps, trying to temper the wheeze of my lungs. I thought of Ruby’s smile, her singed braid. A nice girl. A normal girl.
That was what Mal needed. If he hadn’t taken up with someone new already, eventually he would. And someday I’d be a good enough person to wish him well. Just not today."
Meida wrote: "No Carina, for me it's good thing that they love each other and they have each other. But if Alina also has a feeling for the other guy (most likely the Darkling) so..? wouldn't it hurt Mal too? i..."Where does it show that Alina has feelings for Nikolai or the Darkling again? I haven't seen any of that.
I noticed she's never thought of them in a romantic light whenever she's thinking. When she has romantic thoughts, she's always thinking about Mal.
I haven't seen any romantic implications towards them in her narration at all actually. She seems attracted to the Darkling because their powers are connected, but it's not physical attraction. Even Alina says "I had a taste for you once ." which means she used to.
Mal is the only man we know she's in love with or clearly has romantic feelings for.
Elena wrote: "Vindictev wrote: "WinterRose wrote: "Though I still can't shake the whole "A dark heart. A pure soul. A love that will last forever" thing off. That slogan was on the UK's cover, and in the trailer..."How is that surprising?
Alina is always putting herself down. She thinks he needs a normal girl so she'll be easier for him to deal with. That's what she thinks though.
Mal on the other hand completely ignored Ruby, the normal girl, when she was talking to him because he was too busy staring at Alina. Plus in the R&R excerpts that have scenes with Mal and Alina later in the book, Mal clearly still wants Alina.
It seems that Mal doesn't want a normal girl after all. He wants her.
Vindictev wrote: "Where does it show that Alina has feelings for Nikolai or the Darkling again? I haven't seen any of that."It is actually Mal who references that. Since we know ALina is pretty closed off when it comes to communicating, it's become a thing in the series that Mal is constantly verbalizing her thoughts during their conversations.
He's the only one in the series who has called whatever is between the Darkling and Alina as "love."
First Mal and then the Darkling reference Nikolai as a "contender." In a funny note, the Darkling heard it from Mal and believed it. Mal is a reliable source when it comes to these things. ;)
I agree with you and I am fully counting on that: even though all the "logical" reasons might point to Nikolai, he just arrived too late to the party. *fingers crossed*
And don't get me wrong, I like him. He makes me laugh. It's just that I wished Alina was more "difficult" with him, like she is with Mal and the Darkling.