The Grishaverse discussion
Ruin and Rising
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DISCUSS THE FIRST CHAPTER OF RUIN AND RISING
But it's to say I think we lack to many infos to make such an one-sided judgement on him.) I agree, and we also lack info on the wars itself. I wish Leigh had given us more of a history lesson so we understood why countries are at war, and what the Darkling has done so far in trying to stop the wars. Obviously the king hasn't done shit.
When I heard Nikolai was blowing things up, I actually kind of liked him more.Like I imagined some mischievous man flying around blowing up things and laughing when I read that, then I laughed out loud.
I have a feeling Nikolai is gonna be some smug, sneaky little shit in R&R, and I just can't wait to read the book. Ugh.
Vindictev wrote: "When I heard Nikolai was blowing things up, I actually kind of liked him more."*facepalm*
Is this coming from the same person who thinks the Darkling is evil???
Earlier, I saw someone say something about removing the Unsea to show the other countries power. I don't get why that would be helpful. They probably want the Fold to expand because it keeps Ravka weak, and it's easier to win a war against a country that's weak.
I really do look up to the Darkling for a few reasons, mostly on an intellectual level. However, I do not like the murdering/torturing people part, and that was incredibly wrong of him. He's a leader, cunning, confident, charismatic, brilliant, manipulative, sly, and the list goes on. He is, in a lot of ways, a good role model for those elements, but one would have to keep the anti-violence parts in mind.
If I were in the Darkling's shoes, I would also have expanded the Fold. However, I would have expanded it into the non-populated regions and perhaps the battlefields.
My reasons for such are:
-it would keep people under control
-it would eliminate the wars
-the Grisha could not be obsolete
-betrayal would be minimized
-no one could oppose me
I really do look up to the Darkling for a few reasons, mostly on an intellectual level. However, I do not like the murdering/torturing people part, and that was incredibly wrong of him. He's a leader, cunning, confident, charismatic, brilliant, manipulative, sly, and the list goes on. He is, in a lot of ways, a good role model for those elements, but one would have to keep the anti-violence parts in mind.
If I were in the Darkling's shoes, I would also have expanded the Fold. However, I would have expanded it into the non-populated regions and perhaps the battlefields.
My reasons for such are:
-it would keep people under control
-it would eliminate the wars
-the Grisha could not be obsolete
-betrayal would be minimized
-no one could oppose me
Natalia wrote: "Vindictev wrote: "When I heard Nikolai was blowing things up, I actually kind of liked him more."...Oh wow. I didn't think someone would actually care and take me SO seriously when I thought the imagery of Nikolai causing havoc was funny. He reminded me of a monkey throwing poop at everyone, so I laughed.
I'm from the Attack on Titan fandom. I laugh at humiliating deaths because of how they look. Doesn't mean that I support the titans or think they're innocent. Some people have crude humor, and I'm one of those people. *shrugs*
Lol, why so serious?
The Darkling is an evil asshole. No point arguing with me about that. I wouldn't say Nikolai is evil though. I don't really care that much about Nikolai to argue why.
Vindictev wrote: "I wouldn't say Nikolai is evil though. I don't really care that much about Nikolai to argue why. "
That's ... convenient, lol.
Because I was going to ask just that.
Since I don't really care about Nikolai, I don't really remember every scene about him like I do with Mal or Alina.I'd have to read Siege and Storm all over again and search for the quotes that I faintly remember to explain why I don't think Nikolai is evil. He's manipulative, since he wants to use Alina to become King, but I wouldn't label him as evil from what I remember.
Well, I'm currently rereading S&S and I think Nikolai thinks pretty much like the Darkling, minus the anti-social part and wanting to kill Mal. I do have quotes I can put in his thread tomorrow, for discussion.I still think neither of them are evil, though.
Vindictev wrote: "Lol, why so serious?"
I can never laugh at deaths, no matter how they look. Yes, despite me being the "evil" Darkling's fan.
Honestly when I read what Nikolai was doing, at first I laughed, then I really thought about it and thought it was pretty counterproductive. It lessens my support of him as king.Opening up trade with other countries, no matter who is the leader, is a GOOD thing for Ravka.
Destroying that trade doesn't hurt the Darkling. It hurts the relationship Ravka is trying to build with Fjerda and other countries, hurts the people of Ravka who need those resources from other countries, and possibly injures Ravka and Fjerda people alike who are at the border.
I don't think this makes Nikolai a bad person by any means, but I don't think this is the best way to show rebellion. It makes me take him less seriously as a leader.
Good to know I wasn't the only person that laughed when I learned about what Nikolai was up to. Lol.
I was just like, "Sound like him."
WinterRose wrote: "Honestly when I read what Nikolai was doing, at first I laughed, then I really thought about it and thought it was pretty counterproductive. It lessens my support of him as king.Opening up trade ..."
With Nikolai I'm still undecided about him wanting the best for Ravka first (and thinking he is the best choice it has) or if he wants to be King first (incidentally thinking he can be better for Ravka than other options).
I'm lending more on the second option, tho.
Natalia wrote: "GUYS, I KNOW WHAT APPARAT WANTS! He secretly wants to become young and handsome (like that king in one of original firebird folk tales) and marry Alina! LOL
I'm kidding, of course. But I remembe..."
Wouldn't that be funny? Although, it would be kind of gross.
WinterRose wrote: "According to chapter one, "He (Nikolai) struck along the northern border, bombing supply lines, forcing the Shadow King to renew trade."Which means the Darkling's threat tactic DID work. He had opened trade with Fjerda, which is at the northern border of Ravka. But Nikolai's bombing forces the Darkling to go back to traveling across the fold, which to me is not a good tactic. As I said, I get why Nikolai is trying to give the Darkling hell, but does he realize the Darkling succeeded in opening trade to a country they haven't had trade with in years?"
Oh shoot... I completely missed all of that the first time around. I mean, other than going hahaha over the Prince of Air, I completely missed the implications of Nikolai's rebel stunts.
A couple of thoughts, I'm angry because at you said it is AWFUL and a really dirty trick. If I hadn't spent around two weeks hating Nikolai (back when I believed he would be endgame), I would be hating him now. But at the time, my "hate the Lantsov pup" reserves are spent.
That said, this is "the end justifies the means" all over again. Nikolai wants to be in that throne and it doesn't matter who gets in the way, even if it is his own people. I'm guessing what he wants from this strategy is to create the circumstances (scarcity, distrust, desperation) that lead to a coup, so the people rise against the Darkling. When people start starving, they'll be enraged the new government not only isn't providing but it's going back to trading via the Unsea, which they fear and hate.
Also, this move is just like Novokribirsk!!!! But somehow it does seem even more petty and selfish. I like the comparison in the comments about the "wolf and the pup" because clearly, once again, Nikolai and the Darkling have done something very similar. Will it help Alina see the Darkling's actions at the Fold in a new light?
I am wondering if Alina will try to discourage Nikolai from continuing the bombing, once they reunite. Also I am asking myself what is the difference between a "supply line" and the trade that goes on at the other side of the Fold, just from the economic standpoint. Does it mean that Fjerdan was giving Ravka sort of humanitarian aid? Somehow "supply line" doesn't sound like a monetary transaction. It is quite ASTOUNDING the Darkling concreted any kind of agreement with them.
Cari wrote: "But at the time, my "hate the Lantsov pup" reserves are spent."Cari, you crack me up))
And just to humor you and WinterRose (any anyone who liked the comparison):
I have to say that the small dog is not how I envision Nikolai, but I had to use what I could find. But the big black dog it totes the Darkling :)))
Natalia wrote: "Cari wrote: "But at the time, my "hate the Lantsov pup" reserves are spent."Cari, you crack me up))
And just to humor you and WinterRose (any anyone who liked the comparison):
I have to say ..."
Ahhhhh, I love that pic!!! XD You crack me up too. *hugs*
That is exactly how it will look like when the Darkling and Nikolai come face to face. Hahahaha.
Well, I am pretty sure those two will have "the talk" and Alina will either be there, or be heavily referenced in the conversation.
Cari wrote: "Natalia wrote: "Cari wrote: "But at the time, my "hate the Lantsov pup" reserves are spent."Cari, you crack me up))
And just to humor you and WinterRose (any anyone who liked the comparison):
..."
I think this is more accurate :
http://prom-knight.tumblr.com/image/7...
Elena, that's meant to be a slash!! Like Nikolarkling or something :)Edit- But I love how ridiculously hot Nikolai looks in that picture.
Wait, I'm spent on my hating for him but I should not go from "Bad Nikolai, bad!" to Bad Nikolai... bad *grins* so soon... right?
Also, this move is just like Novokribirsk!!!! But somehow it does seem even more petty and selfishYep, I agree. Petty is exactly the word I was looking for. I'd be more impressed if Nikolai talked Fjerda into trading with HIM, sort of illegal trading if you will. Bombing supply lines completely is kind of immature and frankly, stupid. As I said, he's hurting his country more than the Darkling.
Will it help Alina see the Darkling's actions at the Fold in a new light?
Lol probably not, since Alina is determined to vilify the Darkling because that's easier than looking at the real problems.
It is quite ASTOUNDING the Darkling concreted any kind of agreement with them.
I think this is due to the scare tactic with the fold. It was not a pleasant tactic, but it worked. He established some sort of trade and peace. He's been on the throne for what, a few weeks or months, and he's accomplished something GOOD that none of the Lanstov's have done.
(I was starting to settle with the idea that Nikolai would be the best choice as king, but this changed my mind.)
Natalia wrote: "Cari wrote: "But at the time, my "hate the Lantsov pup" reserves are spent."Cari, you crack me up))
And just to humor you and WinterRose (any anyone who liked the comparison):
I have to say ..."
OMG this is hilarious!!
WinterRose wrote: "Lol probably not, since Alina is determined to vilify the Darkling because that's easier than looking at the real problems."I wonder where Nikolai is hiding the king and queen. Although perhaps they didn't make it. I don't think he has anything else to offer in order to start trading as an emissary of his country.
If he did illegal trading that would mean nothing, it would be pretty much everything he did as Sturmhond. I mean, it would be something on a smaller scale and not able to solve Ravka's problems. (So that he wouldn't become a hero on that front.)
Well, I am hopeful Alina will at some point try to understand the Darkling. And I hope it happens early in the book too. None of that last-pages-of-the-book revelation nonsense.
Edit- Could that be part of the reason why Nikolai and the Darkling are so similar? With this last event, the similarities have reached alarming points. Since she likes Nikolai, she'll probably be able to "excuse" him and in doing so perhaps she'll realize that it was the same mentality that caused Novokribirsk in the first place. Does that make sense, Nikolai as a means to help Alina see beyond her own prejudices?
The funny thing is when she says her aim is to destroy the Fold and defeat the Darkling. I actually said "Listen to yourself Alina! Destroy the Fold? Do you know anyone else with the same plans?" ;p
Also, I really like how the Darkling is only to be "defeated" but not destroyed... at least in her view.
I'm sorry but if he goes, she goes too.
And yes, when I read the king demanded his Sun Summoner to be returned all I could think of was: "Can I read the decree? Did he actually used those words? Could he be any more awesome?" XDEdit- Ok, I'm off to bed now. I'll be back tomorrow probably with thoughts as to why I think Tamar is really awesome and I want her on my team.
Well, I am hopeful Alina will at some point try to understand the Darkling. And I hope it happens early in the book too. None of that last-pages-of-the-book revelation nonsense.I hope so too. From what I've read of the summary, I think she starts to understand him by learning about his past.
(Which actually is not what I want either. I don't want some sob story to change her views. I'd rather her understand his tactics simply by becoming more knowledgeable in the ways of war and the history of Ravka and other countries, if that makes sense.)
WinterRose wrote: "Which actually is not what I want either. I don't want some sob story to change her views. I'd rather her understand his tactics simply by becoming more knowledgeable in the ways of war and the history of Ravka and other countries, if that makes sense."It does make a lot of sense. It would speak highly of her if she was able to give him some credit for the good things he has accomplished and if she recognized his political maneuvers, that while controversial, have yielded good results for the country.
She's not that dumb. She would have to at least acknowledge at some point that having the northern border open for trade is an accomplishment.
Cari wrote: "Could that be part of the reason why Nikolai and the Darkling are so similar? With this last event, the similarities have reached alarming points. Since she likes Nikolai, she'll probably be able to "excuse" him"That's right, Cari, she'll definitely find an excuse.
You know, the Darkling tried to kill Mal while Nikolai didn't, and that's all that matters to Alina. So it will be much easier for her to continue vilifying him until it is probably too late.
Well, this is a YA series and not a dystopia, we readers can expect some sort of a happy ending, right? At least I hope so. Then probably the Fold will be eliminated.
But if so, then what will happen to Alina's and the Darkling's powers? Will any of them survive the destruction of the Fold?
I also feel like if one of them goes down, the other will go down too.
And Cari, I agree - Alina is not dumb, but she is so incredibly stubborn and clueless sometimes it amazes me how she even decided to lead an army back then in S&S.
I feel like the Darkling is going to tell his sob story about how victimized he is to Alina, and I'm already rolling my eyes.I'd actually laugh if Alina told him, "I didn't ask for your stupid life story."
Definitely something I would say, and it would be awesome if she gets this sassy. Ahahahaha.
WinterRose wrote: "Well, I am hopeful Alina will at some point try to understand the Darkling. And I hope it happens early in the book too. None of that last-pages-of-the-book revelation nonsense.I hope so too. Fro..."
I understand what you say. You want Alina not to pity him, because of his story; You want her to understand him. I too have observed that Alina that she is most of the time stubborn or clueless, and she jumps into things too fast without thinking of the concequenses. The fact that she is 17 years old is not an excuse. Her country is at war and she doesn't have time for being a teen. She need to grow up for her sake and that of Ravka. She literally needs to rise.
Also about the Darkling, people should take into account when judging him his backstory and the actions he has done but also his intentions. The truth is to understand the Darkling you have to look objectivly at him and put in balance all his actions.
Natalia wrote: "I also feel like if one of them goes down, the other will go down too. And Cari, I agree - Alina is not dumb, but she is so incredibly stubborn and clueless sometimes it amazes me how she even decided to lead an army back then in S&S. "
Yes, if the Darkling goes, Alina should go too. They're bound, it's only fair ;p
I also feel like if one of them goes down, the other will go down too.
I'm not liking Alina very much these days, so perhaps she is dumb.. and blind too.
I have a question though, is it normal then for YA main characters to ignore a big aspect of the story until the very end? Somehow that doesn't make sense to me. I hope that Leigh worked it out differently.
Also, I really admire that, in the Darklina scene, the Darkling didn't throw in her face the fact that her idea of a "better man" was bombing the supplies for the people of Ravka.
Elena wrote: "The fact that she is 17 years old is not an excuse."I disagree.
I think the fact that she is 17 years old and lacks any preparation to be a general, or lack of military leadership experience period is an excuse. Really, what do you expect her to do? Make every perfect decision when she's clearly terrified and war is going on right in front of her?
I think the problem you guys have is that she's being realistic. I see the same people bash Mal for being realistic as well.
No way in hell would a 17 year old girl with no skills to lead an army will make the best decisions.
This is coming from someone who has been in the Marine Corps for over 8 years. They don't teach how to lead soldiers or in my case Marines to the enlisted at Boot Camp or any other time.
I wouldn't know what to do in a situation like this either. I was only taught how to react, not lead.
You people should give Alina a break. JFC.
@Elena- I hope there is a good context for the Darkling's backstory to happen. I will definitely not like a pity party.@Vindictev- I know what you mean. I've been cutting Alina some slack for months but I think you can only justify Alina so much.
She has some major character development to show in merely 400 pages. If she continues with the same mentality, I'm not sure how that is going to happen.
A funny little exercise is to count in S&S the times in which she's about to tell Mal something and just doesn't, be it something small or big. It will be funny until it just isn't. Elena has a point. Alina is in a country at war and time is a luxury she simply doesn't have.
A better effort to communicate her ideas and feelings is really necessary for things to start turning around. Otherwise, what's left? Waiting until people are mortally wounded or half dead to start seeing things clearly? That doesn't cut it for me anymore, when it comes to her.
Ohh. I do agree with you Cari. That thing about Alina I hate. I don't get why she can't talk to Mal! Ugh. I don't approve. Hopefully she doesn't wait until he is dying or something o.O
She doesn't have all three amplifiers, and she doesn't have much of her powers left anymore.I don't think it's Alina refusing to grow up. I think she just doesn't know what to do when she doesn't have that many options.
Cari wrote: "Otherwise, what's left? Waiting until people are mortally wounded or half dead to start seeing things clearly?"IMO that's what ALREADY happened.
I think there is some serious case of miscommunication between all the characters of the story.
@Cari, yeah, I agree with you about the communication thing.Am I the only Alina apologist in here or?
why
Vindictev wrote: "@Cari, yeah, I agree with you about the communication thing.Am I the only Alina apologist in here or?
why"
Meh. I love Alina :) I just hate that she didn't talk to Mal :( I don't dislike her for other things, as I understand them.
Vindictev wrote: "@Cari, yeah, I agree with you about the communication thing.Am I the only Alina apologist in here or?
why"
Probably not, as there are over 900 members in this group. Somebody definitely thinks Alina is awesome.
Cari wrote: "@Elena- I hope there is a good context for the Darkling's backstory to happen. I will definitely not like a pity party.@Vindictev- I know what you mean. I've been cutting Alina some slack for m..."
Thanks for agreeing. @Vindictev the military being in the army for some time doesn't mean you have a better understanding of how to handel war problems. Alina being a former cartographer should at least have some knowledge about strategy. To be a good military strategist mean you have to be born at least with some intelligence or a gift for it. The fact that she wants to lead the Grisha means that she has to accept all the responsabilities that come with it, if she would have inherited the position she would have an excuse.
As a leader she should focus on the stability of her people. For Alina to lead in a good way she must first decide about her feelings, she should first stay and be like this "okay now I have sort my feelings before I start leading so I can lead with a clear mind". There is this really good line in Vampire Academy 6:
"A queen mustn't posses anything because in order to be good she must give everything to her people".
I'd actually be bored of Alina if she was perfect and so intelligent to the point that she made every good decision.Being in the military means I understand how people react in times of war. I just said why I think everyone should give Alina a break because she wasn't trained to lead, and people don't make the best choices when they're terrified and don't know what to do.
Who else is going to lead the Grisha if it isn't Alina? I feel like Alina has convinced herself that she HAS to lead them because she's the only one capable of defeating the Darkling.
I blame Alina for not communicating with Mal, yes, because ANYONE can tell someone their problems. Even if the other person gets angry, you could at least try again instead of giving up. However, not everyone was born to lead.
Vindictev wrote: "I feel like the Darkling is going to tell his sob story about how victimized he is to Alina, and I'm already rolling my eyes."To be honest, I think if the Darkling tells a sob story to Alina (honestly and not trying to foil her) it'd be kinda... out of character?
I'd need a damn good reason for a X00+ man (so one who probably has lived and experience a lot in his life) to open the pity party.
Vindictev wrote: "Who else is going to lead the Grisha if it isn't Alina? I feel like Alina has convinced herself that she HAS to lead them because she's the only one capable of defeating the Darkling."Probably it's a mute point, seeing as how many people (me included) don't understand why she needed to defeat him in the first place.
I just came across these two paragraphs in S&S:
«Another ragged refugee and your best chance of keeping that shiny throne, I thought with a surprising surge of anger, but I swallowed my pride and bowed as deeply as I could manage. Was this how the Darkling had felt? Being forced to bend and scrape before a dissolute fool?»
«I was still a little taken aback by the anger I’d felt toward the King, though Saints knew he deserved it. He was a filthy old lech who liked to corner servant girls, to say nothing of the fact that he was a rotten leader and had threatened to execute both me and Mal in the space of a few minutes. Even thinking about it, I felt another jab of bitter resentment.»
So she did agree with the Darkling, but still thought that by usurping the throne he committed some sort of crime. She still wanted to warn the King about his plans in S&B, even before she ever met Nikolai.
So, according to Alina, the King is bad, and the Darkling is bad for the job. But it's not like they could hold democratic elections at the time and place :P Who did she think was supposed to rule?
Her attitude really reminds me of Carina's: "I don't know and I don't care, but the Darkling is still bad" :P
@Carina - don't get mad at me for the comparison. I didn't mean to offend, just remembered what you said yesterday :P
Natalia wrote: "Vindictev wrote: "Who else is going to lead the Grisha if it isn't Alina? I feel like Alina has convinced herself that she HAS to lead them because she's the only one capable of defeating the Darkl..."Oh the King is bad alright, but usurping is bad as well. The one who has a right to the throne is Nikolai, not the Darkling.
Natalia wrote: "So she did agree with the Darkling, but still thought that by usurping the throne he committed some sort of crime."
Some sort of crime? The Darkling killed people and took the throne by force. That classifies as multiple crimes.
She probably thinks Nikolai should rule, since he has the right and all. She just doesn't agree with becoming his Queen. Could add more things but I haven't read this book since last June.
Technically, the one who had the right to the throne in S&S is Vasily, the first son. As far as I remember, Vasily wasn't willing to let Nikolai become King.And seeing as Nikolai is so much like the Darkling, he probably would have usurped the throne himself, in time.
Nikolai aka Sturmhond had killed and "tortured" people too, as far as I remember.
So here you have it : bad King, bad Darkling, bad Nikolai, bad Vasily, bad queen, bad Apparat. Even Alina is somewhat bad now.
I agree the Darkling committed a crime, however, so did everyone else, in their own way. That's my point. No one is really that good. Well, maybe Mal is good, but he is not a contender to rule Ravka, nor does he want to.
Natalia wrote: "Technically, the one who had the right to the throne in S&S is Vasily, the first son. As far as I remember, Vasily wasn't willing to let Nikolai become King."I was about to write the same LOL And technically there are also doubts about Nikolai being a legitimate heir ;)
Usurping the throne is bad? Umh... I'm not so sure. It's against the law, so it's a criminal action, but ethically speaking to remove a bad/awful king may not be a bad idea.
Well, I think that inexperience is part of why Alina doesn't always make the right choices and is immature. But that isn't a thing that all teenagers suffer from, and not all teenage girls suffer from. Under-confidence and indecision may now be a bit expected, but some teenage females aren't like that, you know? Some can be leaders, some are confident.
@Natalia. I agree. A lot of arguments against the Darkling do also apply to Sturmhond. Nikolai, about becoming a privateer and becoming dangerous, says that he did it because he could do more good that way. Maybe the Darkling is the same way? And yes, everyone has committed crimes. And yeah, not as bad usually, but it still is something someone did that isn't morally right.
@Natalia. I agree. A lot of arguments against the Darkling do also apply to Sturmhond. Nikolai, about becoming a privateer and becoming dangerous, says that he did it because he could do more good that way. Maybe the Darkling is the same way? And yes, everyone has committed crimes. And yeah, not as bad usually, but it still is something someone did that isn't morally right.
Natalia wrote: "Technically, the one who had the right to the throne in S&S is Vasily, the first son. As far as I remember, Vasily wasn't willing to let Nikolai become King.And seeing as Nikolai is so much like t..."
Hah. I agree with this: "No one is really that good. Well, maybe Mal is good" :) Mal is good. Probably the only one still good in the series, lol :D But he does not want to rule. And I would never want him to rule if he didn't want to either. To be honest, I don't want ANY of them to rule Ravka. A new person should step up :)
I honestly don't think that Mal is the only good person in the book, or that he is a better person than most of the other characters
Alina isn't like other girls though.Alina isn't the leader type, nor is she confident. Now that the Darkling could summon shadow beasts. Niche...I forgot the name of his monsters, even Alina's "Cut" is ineffective against them.
Plus she doesn't have the third amplifier. She's terrified because the only weapon she thought she can defeat the Darkling with, aka her power, is powerless against his monsters and not powerful enough to destroy the fold.
I've said this before, but there's no point in wanting to rule if you plan on wiping countries out. Who will you rule if they're all dead? lol The Darkling realizes they need trade with other countries, hence why he has them in the beginning of R&R. He doesn't WANT to use the fold because that's pointless. He wants the wars to stop.
Was the Darkling's tactic the best? Probably not, though I don't know how many other tactics he's tried and for how long. But did it work? Yes. At least with Fjerda, apparently they had new trade routes until Nikolai destroyed them.