The Grishaverse discussion
Ruin and Rising
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DISCUSS THE FIRST CHAPTER OF RUIN AND RISING
My honest opinion?All of them are bad for the throne. Only difference is that Nikolai at least has some kind of right to it. I think he needs a Queen first?
As pretty as Alina being the Queen sounds, I'd actually despise if she became a Queen. She doesn't seem like the type who likes staying in court, going through political meetings, and having to be locked up and guarded constantly by guards. Nor do I think she's fit to rule Ravka.
Hell, in the 1st chapter of R&R, it seems like Alina hates the idea of that.
She should just save Ravka and go off to live with Mal in their meadow like she's dreamed about.
@ Vindictev: Ironically, Alina is probably the only one who the Darkling is not going to harm. I wish they would just talk, as equals.They probably would, as we know from the excerpt, but I also think in that scene Alina has some trick up her sleeve that she is going to use.
She didn't say "an apt pupil" without a reason.
Natalia wrote: "Tasha wrote: "I honestly don't think that Mal is the only good person in the book-"Who do you think is good in this series?
Yes, Mal is not the only, but other people are not contenders to rule ..."
Well that's the thing, human beings are not either good or bad. All human beings have both bad and good traits.
And you won't really know if a person is a good or bad person, until they are pushed to their limit.
Yes, Mal is generally a good person, but he haven't really been "tested", or been through much. He is still quite innocent, but don't you think he would have been a very different person, if he had lived a life similar to the Darkling?
If he could live through a 100 year war, and still be this idealistic person, then I would call him a good person.
Natalia wrote: "@ Vindictev: Ironically, Alina is probably the only one who the Darkling is not going to harm. I wish they would just talk, as equals.They probably would, as we know from the excerpt, but I also t..."
I don't think so.
He's enslaved and had her in chains twice. Not to mention he's threatened to flay her.
Tasha wrote: "And you won't really know if a person is a good or bad person, until they are pushed to their limit."That I wholeheartedly agree with. Both in books and in real life )))
I think the first problem is that Alina SHOULD NOT have been the Grisha army leader. She's 16 with no experience. I don't know if I'd say her bad choices were due to making them or due to the fact that she doesn't seek council as much as she should. But again, she doesn't have a Barriston or Jorah or Tywin. Speaking of that, where are the wise military leaders and generals and advisors? Why is this series flooded with teenagers? lol (Because it's YA I know but it lacks adults dearly.)
The leader should have gone to Zoya or some other high ranking Grisha. Someone who didn't just figure out they were Grisha.
Vindictev wrote: "I don't think so.He's enslaved and had her in chains twice. Not to mention he's threatened to flay her. "
She was in chains so she wouldn't use her power on him and his crew. (And no, I don't approve of him doing it :P). I think he would have gladly released her, is she was just willing to listen.
And did you actually believe he would have flayed her? Oh, come on!
It was an act to scare Mal and Alina into cooperation.
Like I said before, the smartest way for Alina to keep Mal safe was to pretend she didn't care all that much about him before the Darkling, not shove her feelings for Mal in his face. The more she did it, the more pissed the Darkling got.
Zoya is too unpredictable though. There's still a chance she could be the Darkling's spy. I know I wouldn't let her be the Grisha Leader. She's too immature for the job. Holding petty grudges and all. Even going as far as breaking a fellow grisha's ribs.
They need someone who can lead them right. Not injure the only few grisha they have left.
Perhaps not Zoya, but there were other more experienced Grisha there.What really bothers me is that Alina convinced all those Grisha to fight her war against the Darkling, thus getting them killed when it could have been so easily avoided.
I wonder what would have happened if the Darkling didn't think Mal loved Alina and actually refused to help him. I don't think he would have stopped there. Yep, I think he would have flayed her. He already had one of his monsters bite her. Who says he wouldn't flay her.
Also, no way in hell would I cooperate and "listen" to someone who has enslaved me before, used my power against my will, thrown my best friend/lover out to die, mutilated my friends, and killed innocent people.
Vindictev wrote: "I wonder what would have happened if the Darkling didn't think Mal loved Alina and actually refused to help him. I don't think he would have stopped there. Yep, I think he would have flayed her. ..."
Thank you for being the one who makes the most sense, lol. I agree with just about everything that you say. Because SERIOUSLY. How can almost everyone expect Alina to go to the Darkling? To love him? To forgive him? I would NEVER have done any of those things. Because yeah. You explain very well all the bad things he have done. And that isn't even all of it. To me, all of that is unforgivable.
Vindictev wrote: "I wonder what would have happened if the Darkling didn't think Mal loved Alina and actually refused to help him. I don't think he would have stopped there. Yep, I think he would have flayed her. ..."
We can't know for sure, but the theory is that the monster bite was to protect her from the monsters. Like calls to like, so they would recognize her as their own. But it is a theory. One thing is for sure - he doesn't do anything without a purpose. What do you think the bite was for?
And if Mal didn't love Alina, there would be no point to threaten him with flaying her. The Darkling even spelled it out for them: "I prick one, the other bleeds". If Mal wouldn't bleed, why prick Alina?
Vindictev wrote: "Also, no way in hell would I cooperate and "listen" to someone who has enslaved me before, used my power against my will, thrown my best friend/lover out to die, mutilated my friends, and killed innocent people. "Doesn't it bother you that Nikolai has done basically the same things, especially in his career as a privateer, just they were not ALINA'S friends and lovers. Does it make it right then? The way I see it, somebody's enemy is always somebody's friend.
But she decided to cooperate with Nikolai anyway, so her judgement is very subjective. Being subjective is very understandable for any person, but it's not a way to think for someone who wants to rule or lead an army.
Thanks Carina!I just noticed I worded that first part wrong since I was in a rush. I mean I wonder what the Darkling would have done if Mal simply refused him. I don't think he would have stopped there when he already threatened to flay Alina, and he's set on getting what he wants.
I think he had his creature bite her so he could invade her dreams to manipulate her more.
Carina wrote: "Because SERIOUSLY. How can almost everyone expect Alina to go to the Darkling? To love him? To forgive him?"I'm not talking about love and forgiveness.
I'm talking about getting more knowledge from him, being open-minded enough to at least TRY to see things from his POV and possible cooperation.
Natalia wrote: "Perhaps not Zoya, but there were other more experienced Grisha there.What really bothers me is that Alina convinced all those Grisha to fight her war against the Darkling, thus getting them killed..."
Probably should have been Nikolai to be honest. Technically he has experience working with Grisha. I'd rather have a non-Grisha leader who knows what they're doing than a Grisha who doesn't. Might have been better to combine Grisha and non-Grisha alike.
OR, and this makes more sense to me, stop trying to defeat the Darkling on the battlefield. Hire an assassin or have Alina side with him, earn his trust, and slit his throat in bed one night. lol Not all battles need to be fought between two armies where hundreds will die in the process.
Vindictev wrote: "I think he had his creature bite her so he could invade her dreams to manipulate her more.
"
Considering the excerpt about Alina being an apt pupil and probably having grasped how to reach him through their connection, I think their shared amplifier is the key, tbh.
It may be the bite, but that connection seems more onesided to me, one the Darkling imposed on to her and not something she has some power upon like the stag (and I don't think Alina has sent anything to bite the Darkling yet.
How can almost everyone expect Alina to go to the Darkling? To love him? To forgive him? I would NEVER have done any of those thingsSometimes I think you have a problem distinguishing characters from yourself. Because YOU would choose Mal, Alina should. Because YOU hate the Darkling, Alina should. Because YOU would never forgive him, Alina shouldn't.
I'm only saying this because several instances I've seen you make a claim, then follow it up with "Because I would never do that."
Which is okay, but remember the characters are not you. :P Alina might feel different than you, just as she might feel different than me. (Though I do know it's hard sometimes. It's hard to remember what we want might not be what the characters want.)
Lys wrote: "and I don't think Alina has sent anything to bite the Darkling yet. But maybe she will bite him herself"LOL
She did have her own monsters at the end of S&S or am I forgetting something? Maybe one of them bit him in the Chapel.
I'm not gonna get into any deep Nikolai discussions since I haven't read the book in a year and didn't really care enough to remember every scene about him. I'd rather not use my unreliable memory for any of my arguments, so I'll save that for later.However, I never thought of Nikolai to be cruel. Nor do I remember him killing and torturing innocent people. I need to be refreshed. I also see Nikolai and Sturmhond as two completely different characters, so it's confusing trying to explain what I think of him when he has two egos. Lol.
Natalia wrote: "Lys wrote: "and I don't think Alina has sent anything to bite the Darkling yet. But maybe she will bite him herself"LOL
She did have her own monsters at the end of S&S or am I forgetting somethi..."
she did, but if I'm not mistaken (I may!) there was no biting involved: just lots of power drawing ;)
Vindictev wrote: "I'm not gonna get into any deep Nikolai discussions since I haven't read the book in a year and didn't really care enough to remember every scene about him. I'd rather not use my unreliable memory ..."Well, he did board a Fjerdan boat (a trader boat) and cut off the captain's fingers off (feeding them to his dog. Poor dog). Not exactly a "we are all friends" gesture. But since he says to Alina he felt awful for it, altho he knew it was what he needed to do to gain the respect of his own crew, Alina accepted it easily.
Vindictev wrote: "However, I never thought of Nikolai to be cruel. Nor do I remember him killing and torturing innocent people."Like a character in another book said, no one is innocent.
And here you have one bit of a proof.
«Do you know how I got the name Sturmhond?” he asked.
“I thought it was some kind of joke, a play on Sobachka.”
“No,” he said. “It’s a name I earned. The first enemy ship I ever boarded was a Fjerdan trader out of Djerholm. When I told the captain to lay down his sword, he laughed in my face and told me to run home to my mother. He said Fjerdan men make bread from the bones of skinny Ravkan boys.”
“So you killed him?”
“No. I told him foolish old captains weren’t fit meat for Ravkan men. Then I cut off his fingers and fed them to my dog while he watched.”
“You … what?”
The room was packed with rowdy soldiers singing, shouting, telling stories, but it all fell away as I stared at Nikolai in stunned silence. It was as if I was watching him transform again, as if the charming mask had shifted to reveal a very dangerous man.
“You heard me. My enemies understood brutality. And so did my crew. After it was over, I drank with my men and divvied up the spoils. Then I went back to my cabin, vomited up the very fine dinner my steward had prepared, and cried myself to sleep. But that was the day I became a real privateer, and that was the day Sturmhond was born.”
“So much for ‘puppy,’” I said, feeling a bit nauseated myself.
“I was a boy trying to lead an undisciplined crew of thieves and rogues against enemies who were older, wiser, and tougher. I needed them to fear me. All of them. And if they hadn’t, more people would have died.”
I pushed my plate away. “Just whose fingers are you telling me to cut off?”
“I’m telling you that if you want to be a leader, it’s time you started thinking and acting like one.”
“I’ve heard this before, you know, from the Darkling and his supporters. Be brutal. Be cruel. More lives will be saved in the long run.”
“Do you think I’m like the Darkling?”
I studied him—the golden hair, the sharp uniform, those too-clever hazel eyes.
“No,” I said slowly. “I don’t think you are.” I rose to go join Mal. “But I’ve been wrong before.»
Since Alina is starting to sound like Aang from Avatar: The Last Airbender with only defeating the villain, I'm kinda laughing at the thought of the Darkling being trapped in a cell like Ozai.What I want to know is if Alina defeats the Darkling, what's going to happen from there? Will he be confined for his crimes or will he just end up dying?
I'm so curious.
I'm confused, WinterRose. How does what you said to me make any sense? I'm not the one with that problem. ALINA is the one wanting to be wit Mal. I just happen to feel the same way. She DOES NOT want to be with the Darkling. YOU are the one saying she should be with him. So yeah. I'm confused. As I think you meant yourself more with what you wrote to me. :)
I'm amazed at how I didn't remember any of that. It actually sounds new to me. I told ya'll I never really cared about Nikolai/Sturmhond and I devoured that book in a day.I don't think Alina really cared about Sturmhond's actions toward their enemies. I can see why she wouldn't side with the Darkling though. He's killed his own people, and even mutilated and tried to kill Alina's loved ones.
I understand Alina's feelings, but they are subjective.Killing is killing, though. The fact that they were enemies doesn't make it look any better.
Like I said before, somebody's enemy is always somebody's loved one.
My point is - two men did basically the same thing, but one is labelled as evil while the other is not.
Terrorists might be loved by people, but I wouldn't let them live when they're clearly a threat.This discussion actually reminds me of the U.S.'s use of drones in the middle east. I find it wrong of our government to bomb innocent people along with the terrorists, even if it is to prevent anymore deaths.
Sure Sturmhond and the Darkling used the same fear tactic and the same excuse, but I don't remember those enemies that Sturmhond hurt/killed being innocent.
The Darkling chose to kill that village of innocent people though. I honestly think he could have used some other fear tactic without expending innocent lives.
He mentioned cutting off a guy's fingers as how he got the name "Sturmhond".
Vindictev wrote: "This discussion actually reminds me of the U.S.'s use of drones in the middle east. I find it wrong of our government to bomb innocent people along with the terrorists, even if it is to prevent anymore deaths."I find it wrong too.
Haha, we probably shouldn't start this discussion about real life.
US foreign policy makes me furious.
The people Nikolai killed in the sea were as much terrorists as HE was.
And droning the supply line in HIS OWN country - that was exactly what Nikolai was doing in the prologue - how is that any good?
Vindictev wrote: "The Darkling chose to kill that village of innocent people though. I honestly think he could have used some other fear tactic without expending innocent lives. "
I think so too, and I don't agree with his method. But I try to see things from his POV and understand, what methods he could have used instead. While Alina never did any such thing.
Vindictev wrote: "Sure Sturmhond and the Darkling used the same fear tactic and the same excuse, but I don't remember those enemies that Sturmhond hurt/killed being innocent."Actually, I don't think we know a lot about this person who ate his own fingers.
Leaving that aside, I wouldn't be quick about drawing conclusions about Nikolai.
Consider this: only Nikolai and the Apparat have been able to fool the Darkling. That means they're even more cunning.
Also, if you read S&S again, another fun little exercise is to start noticing parallels between the Darkling and Nikolai. It is Alina who starts doing it, but once you start it's almost impossible to stop. It's like they're mirror images of each other, like two sides of a coin: golden boy and dark lord. So much so that if the Darkling weren't hundreds of years old, I would have expected a plot twist to be that they're related.
To me, Nikolai is in many ways the Darkling, if the Darkling had mastered the art of being funny, disarmingly charming and a convincing actor.
Cari, spot on! I'm seeing the similarities everywhere now. And it feels like Leigh wanted the reader to notice those parallels. Are you rereading it too now?
Or, secretly, they could be the same person. . . .JK
Natalia wrote: "Cari, spot on! I'm seeing the similarities everywhere now. And it feels like Leigh wanted the reader to notice those parallels. Are you rereading it too now?"
I haven't started re-reading yet, but this morning as I was doing stuff I started doing a comparison and it got so long I thought I needed to write it down. But yes, it's pretty... weird or something. I can't put my finger on it, but really I can understand why Alina is feeling more and more drawn to Nikolai.
Something that just occurred to me... In the novella "The too-clever fox" we all know it has to do with Nikolai. And yes, Nikolai is called the fox in the series. I know that, but also I often think that in that novella the fox is also like Alina in so many ways. I always wondered who's the girl in that story? Often I thought it represented the Darkling. But now I think, what if it represents Nikolai? I know it sounds weird but the fox is so taken with the girl's loveliness that he cannot see danger in front of him.
Alina is always saying she should not trust Nikolai, but he is so irresistible, that she cannot help herself. She's more and more drawn to him. What if he were not as "innocent" as he seems? He likes her sure, but he wants this throne like nothing else. So how far will he be willing to go to get it? Is Alina, like the fox, trusting him a little too much?? /endofrandomthought
Elvina wrote: "Or, secretly, they could be the same person. . . .JK"This is the second time today I hear this. Interesting but I think unlikely. The fact that they are so similar has to mean something though.
Often, I've thought that through Nikolai, without intending to, Alina will come to understand the Darkling. At some point, the series of parallels that she started should click in her head and she can either villify Nikolai or sort of "redeem" the Darkling. Because Nikolai is so darn cute that he makes finger self-cannibalism look like a date with Strawberry Shortcake, I guess she'll choose option 2.
Cari wrote: "Because Nikolai is so darn cute that he makes finger self-cannibalism look like a date with Strawberry Shortcake, I guess she'll choose option 2. "ROFL ))) This is so evil of me to laugh, but I just can't )))
Also, goodnight. It's 3 a.m. and I need to catch some sleep.
Carina wrote: "I'm confused, WinterRose. How does what you said to me make any sense? I'm not the one with that problem. ALINA is the one wanting to be wit Mal. I just happen to feel the same way. She DOES NOT wa..."I honestly don't know how to be more clear here. Here is the quote I quoted you from, again:
How can almost everyone expect Alina to go to the Darkling? To love him? To forgive him? I would NEVER have done any of those things."
The way I interpreted what you said here is that you would never do those things (love him or forgive him) and therefore, how can anyone expect Alina to. Feel free to correct me on what you meant, if that's not it.
My point is that Alina is not you. Just because you could never forgive him does not mean Alina could never forgive him.
Well, I bet my life Nikolai will make bombing those supply lines look like it was merely the Easter Bunny blowing kisses to the Tooth Fairy. So Alina will be all like "Good for you, Nikolai!! I'm sure those bombed Ravkans didn't even feel it. And the ones who die from starvation, well, we're all going to die anyway, right?" While the other 2 guys only get hell from her, Nikolai always get smiles and best-behavior Alina. That's the way of the world, right?
But you now what? In a way he has earned it. Ever since he took her foot to prevent her from kicking him again, Alina has been a tamed little lamb with him. He's the only one who doesn't enable her and is not afraid to say "no" to her. Mal and the Darkling should just sit, take note and learn from the master.
Ok, I should be going too! Sleep tight!
Cari wrote: "Well, I bet my life Nikolai will make bombing those supply lines look like it was merely the Easter Bunny blowing kisses to the Tooth Fairy. So Alina will be all like "Good for you, Nikolai!! I'm..."I'm telling you guys he's the one to watch. By far, the least trustworthy and most clever. I'm also convinced he makes a better general or pirate than a king.
WinterRose wrote: "Cari wrote: "Well, I bet my life Nikolai will make bombing those supply lines look like it was merely the Easter Bunny blowing kisses to the Tooth Fairy. So Alina will be all like "Good for you, N..."Well, I think he's the person from whom she least expects betrayal (aside from Mal, I guess)... and it is interesting because this goes against the advice she keeps giving herself regarding him.
I am guessing she goes to see the Darkling before the scene in which Nikolai finally appears. She hasn't seen him in a long time, and yet, she's so sure of him. So sure he is a "better man" and in the same category as Mal too. (Mal who has been with her the whole time, not missing in action God knows where doing God knows what... aside from bombing people.)
Nikolai told her himself that if it came to be her or the throne he wasn't sure what he would choose, which is honest, but also a warning.
(I guess then that's the "hidden truth" in the "Too-clever fox." It does feel right. To me, that riddle is solved.)
Natalia wrote: "The people Nikolai killed in the sea were as much terrorists as HE was.And droning the supply line in HIS OWN country - that was exactly what Nikolai was doing in the prologue - how is that any good?"
Lol. I'm not defending Nikolai. Nor did I ever say what he did was any good. I'm just pointing out the differences between him and the Darkling to explain why I think Alina has different views of them.
This is why I'm 100% Team Mal.
The two other guys are inhumane and are criminals in their own right. Not to mention that they want to use Alina for some selfish reason, like to take the throne and to control the fold to have control over the countries.
I don't see any good that will come out of that for Alina, and I don't think Nikolai or the Darkling deserve her if all they do is care about using her Sun Summoner Title or her Sun Summoner powers.
I got my fingers crossed that Mal and Alina are endgame. =]
Reading all the posts in here have made me wonder why people are more threatened over Mal, the human man with no grisha powers or royal blood, than Nikolai, the charismatic prince/privateer.It's kinda funny.
I think Nikolai has a better chance at getting with Alina than Mal or the Darkling is. She can become his Queen, and she also happens to side with him.
Why wouldn't Alina choose Nikolai?
I also think Nikolai and Alina has the best chance of being endgame. Mainly because of the parallel with The Too Clever Fox and how he seems to represent the middle between the two extremities of Mal and the Darkling.Choosing Nikolai though might mean choosing to be queen. If Alina doesn't want to be queen, she obviously won't choose him. (Though he might be the only one left alive by the end, which is how I think she'll end up with him if she does.)
Reading all the posts in here have made me wonder why people are more threatened over Mal, the human man with no grisha powers or royal blood, than Nikolai, the charismatic prince/privateer.I can't speak for everyone, but I think it's more of a predictability than threat. To me, Mal and Alina is the most predictable ending, the ending I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.
(Even though I do have a feeling it's going to be Nikolai/Alina because of how The Too Clever Fox ends.)
Often, I've thought that through Nikolai, without intending to, Alina will come to understand the Darkling.Or possibly through herself. She already acknowledged (after Genya pointed it out) that her action on the fold resulted in the same thing as what the Darkling did.
Random thought. Why that village? The Darkling doesn't do things randomly. I wonder why he chose that specific village.
Vindictev wrote: "Why wouldn't Alina choose Nikolai? "She might. A while back, I was entirely convinced she would, in the scenario that WinterRose points out: they're the only ones left alive in the end and join forces to rebuild Ravka.
Nikolai makes sense for so many reasons: he can actually join the two armies (First and Grisha) because he has a great deal of experience working with both. Also, he doesn't distrust technology and sees it as incompatible with Grisha powers as the Darkling does. Finally, he can win over the people too as "heir" of the throne (probably he's not the king's son but the king loved him nonetheless). Nikolai has studied extensively politics and foreign affairs. He's a master engineer and as you've noticed, quite smooth with the ladies.
It seems to me that he's winning Alina over without breaking a sweat.
So yes, Mal is no threat compared to Nikolai sadly, not by a mile. Re-read S&S and see with what finesse he convinces Alina to send Mal away AND in the same breath tells her he's doing it to save their relationship. It is a beautiful work of genius. The Darkling couldn't accomplish anything remotely similar if he tried.
@WinterRose I think it's because that village had a fairly large population compared to others and was well known by people for being a trading post? So it would make a statement. @Cari those are really good reasons. The thing against Nikolai and Alina endgame, although it may seem superficial, is that he was only introduced in the second book, and I believe Leigh referenced her original plan was to kill him off in the second book. And she also mentioned she knew who Alina would be with when she was already writing the first book (in which Nikolai had no part and his character wasn't fully developed yet). In my mind, Nikolai does seem like the best choice for Alina and gives her the best future because he would be equals with her and help her use her powers for the greater good, without controlling her powers (Darkling) or being scared of them (Mal). And her powers are part of who she is, so she needs someone who can accept that and support her.
WinterRose wrote: "Even though I do have a feeling it's going to be Nikolai/Alina because of how The Too Clever Fox ends"New theory... which is not great, mind you but...
Nikolai is the hunting girl. Alina is the fox. Mal is the bird. (I wish there was a Darkling in this picture T__T )
Think about it. The girl warns the fox, just as Nikolai casually does Alina (if he has to choose, he's not sure what he'd do). But the fox is too taken by the girl's beauty and charm, and does not pay attention until it's too late.
The bird knows the fox is attracted to the girl, but patiently waits and saves the fox in the end. Just as Mal is patiently waiting.
If that is the foreshadowing, then Mal could be endgame.
However, I believe the missing piece is "Little Knife," that story should have something to say about Mal.
So far I think the stories have as much to do with the guys as with Alina:
Witch of Ravka A "villain" is constructed by POV, in fact the "villain" could be a hero when all comes to light. The real villain is not who you think. (The Darkling)
Little Fox Looks can be deceiving. Pay attention to warnings. Friends can always be counted on. The villain is not who you think. (Nikolai)
@ Melanie. What are the chances that Sturmhond and Nikolai were originally TWO separate characters? Maybe Nikolai was meant to live, whereas Sturmhond was meant to be killed in book two. But Leigh ended up combining the two?@ Cari. I feel like Nikolai has to be the fox. Too many similarities. Also the fact that Alina references a fox when thinking of him. Maybe the Apparat is the girl? The apparat, because he's not what he seems and is able to finally trick the untrickable? Which means Alina is the bird.
Because remember, Leigh did say that The Too Clever Fox might foreshadow Sturmhond/Nikolai's ending.
Who do you think is good in this series?
Yes, Mal is not the only, but other people are not contenders to rule Ravka either.