Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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If you want readers, why aren't you defending them?
Melissa wrote: "I honestly don't see why this is a problem? I've left some reviews that were fairly short myself. Some as simple as "Great story, loved the characters" or "Story didn't engage me, characters were dull..."
The problem isn't the length of the review, nor the number of stars. Reviews should be honest. The one star review I received for my book that the reviewer plainly stated that she had never read forces me to question the credibility of every review on this site. Can I assume that every "reviewer" who hasn't read the book they're reviewing will be honest enough to say so? I can't assume that...
The problem isn't the length of the review, nor the number of stars. Reviews should be honest. The one star review I received for my book that the reviewer plainly stated that she had never read forces me to question the credibility of every review on this site. Can I assume that every "reviewer" who hasn't read the book they're reviewing will be honest enough to say so? I can't assume that...
I can understand that, I have often wondered about people who rate books that are not out yet as well.I'm a firm believer if you didn't read at least half the book you shouldn't review the book. And if you weren't able to finish it because some books just don't strike a cord then don't give them a star rating just explain what didn't work for you and move on.
Jack wrote: "Dina wrote: "...is there a way to quote from someone else's post...not the beginning, but something specifically?"Copy and Paste, m'dear, Copy and Paste..."
Oh no! I guess I just made myself look really clueless.
I guess I was wondering how to do it with the italics...an easy way. Without going all HTML.
But yeah. Cut and paste is fine : )
Dina wrote: "Jack wrote: "Dina wrote: "...is there a way to quote from someone else's post...not the beginning, but something specifically?"
Copy and Paste, m'dear, Copy and Paste..."
Oh no! I guess I just ma..."
Just leave the italic brackets in place, and paste what you want between them. Never clueless, just uninformed...
Copy and Paste, m'dear, Copy and Paste..."
Oh no! I guess I just ma..."
Just leave the italic brackets in place, and paste what you want between them. Never clueless, just uninformed...
Melissa said, "I honestly don't see why this is a problem or reflects badly on the reviewer? I've left some reviews that were fairly short myself. Some as simple as "Great story, loved the characters" or "Story didn't engage me, characters were dull". I don't think every review needs to be a full book report to convey feelings about the book."I agree with this. I'm awful at reviewing books, and usually can't think of any clever way to justify my likes or dislikes.
Julie wrote: "Reading your post I realize that no matter how engaged I have been, how thrilled with a book I never considered blogging or posting reviews. It's become the norm and I find myself trying to move along with this wave but really have never felt I wanted to more than internalize my own response. I have never felt impelled to share my opinion with the public. I'm now really interested in the psychology behind things like the increasing public need to voice about this that and anything at all; Twitter and Facebook etc come to mind. I didn't grow up in the social media age and so for me "reviews" were something qualified professionals did and the rest of us just read a book or not. This whole topic is very interesting to me now."Reviewers of course have many different reasons for reviewing, but I also think there may be a different psychology at work depending on the venue the reviewer has chosen. I like posting on Goodreads because I like talking about books. My primary purpose isn't to encourage (or discourage) someone from reading something. Reviews often get good discussions going, and that is what interests me. Often those conversations have influenced me to read something I wouldn't have known about otherwise, but sometimes I just enjoy the discussion.
Reviews on Amazon, on the other hand, have a more commercial purpose. I read them and use them sometimes, but they are less interesting to me. I don't choose to post there.
As for the psychology of social media, as you say "the increasing public need to voice about this that and anything at all", I think there has always been an element of that, even before our current technology came into being. People have written opinion pieces, letters to the editor, memoirs, etc., etc. for ages. There may be some of that (exhibitionism? The desire to be acknowledged by many people?) in whatever it is that makes some people want to write and publish a book. The current technology has democratized that need, though, opening the platform to any and all. Sometimes the result is good, sometimes not.
Reviews are subjective by their very nature- thus if a product or book only has five stars, it tends to throw up a red flag to me regardless of how great the product or book is, becuase undoubtedly there should be someone that doesn't think as highly of it. The amazon ranking system is impossible to decipher until the actual results come out but I do know that this newspaper article helped mine temporarily spike:http://ctpostchronicle.com/articles/2...
Julie, you are correct in that reviews are good gateways into valuable discussions. They can also provide the opportunity to share a book that had a personal impact on you and hopefully the next reader.
Complete agree with Linda. I am just someone, who likes to read a good book. Of course I like to make a comment about it. It may or may not to be to the authors liking. But this isnt my intension. To show to other readers what I thought about it. I do not think. that those paid 'reviewers' do their jobs. To rate a book to pampers the writers selfesteem ? They have to toughen up ! Its not the readers problem. Then, those authors complain to each other about negative readers reviews and how to get more recognized. We cant always run and purchase a book. But we are doing the Best we can with our reviews. What is still better. Better, than a socalled reviewer who gives everyone the highest rating.
Julie wrote: "Wonderful story C and R.F.G. that magic children have in themselves, their open minds is a wonder. I know I am always just thrilled with the wild, unbound creativity of my son. He's a constant source of laughter, love and happiness because the world hasn't taken the magic away. I hope he never loses it. "Julie,
I'm a relict with a six-month-old daughter. If there is one thing I plan on doing for her before I'm gone (hopefully many years from now), it will be encouraging her to continue seeing the magic no matter how old she gets.
When people let this world warp them and stomp their creativity into the dirt, they also begin losing their ability to believe in hope. And if I hadn't been able to hold onto a shred of hope through the decades, my tiny demon warrior princess would never have been born.
And now it's time for a decrepit relict to answer the demands of She-Who-Will-Be-Obeyed [or at the very least, entertained].
I completely agree with the comments about how it's only our own behaviour we can control, as well as those about how everyone is speaking at once online while nobody is listening. The problem with humans is that we all think we're right, whether we are or not, and we struggle to accept alternative opinions; a problem made worse by the fact we can just click something or press a button and no longer see what we aren't interested in seeing. We need to learn to control our impulses to attack those who don't tell us what we want to hear, as well as our tendancy to judge and be critical for the smallest of reasons. However, as already mentioned, we have no control over anyone's ability to control these things; apart from our own. We do, however, have the ability to reduce the number of people doing this. If each of us reading this takes the time to ensure we give fair reviews when we post them, and don't attack those who don't give our own work fair reviews, then a large number of people will be behaving fairly and showing respect for fellow authors and readers. The more people doing this, the more chance others will follow in our footsteps. We'll never have everyone being respectful and fair, but if we lead by example, perhaps we can have most people displaying fairness and respect?
I love your story, ScaryBob! I love the games children come up with, and how well they use their imaginations!
Dina wrote: "Melissa said, "I honestly don't see why this is a problem or reflects badly on the reviewer? I've left some reviews that were fairly short myself. Some as simple as "Great story, loved the characte..."The same way with me. Sometimes I do write a lot in a review and other times not that much ! I am not an expert, so I may not hit the spot. But it is how I got 'connected ' with the book, how it appeals to me. I think many readers feel this way too !
I don't think the length of a review should matter. Yes, longer ones give more details that could potentially be used to make future work better, or tell you what's great about your book. But if a reader takes the time to write a review, does it really matter if all they say is "I loved it" or something simple like that? Some of my reviews are just short things like "a cute and entertaining story" or something like that, but others are more detailed; it depends if I know what to write. If you love everything about a story, is there any point in writing a long paragraph saying so? Why write an essay if you can say it in a few words?
I get notably upset when people start berating others based on the length of their respective reviews. Some people just write that way and they have every right to be able to express their opinion as they would like. People do not have the jurisdiction to control what others say or how they say it. And I find many reviews valuable to read, no matter their length. For me, what's important is being able to understand where the individual person's reading experience comes from and have an understanding of why they had their respective thoughts. It doesn't make a person's opinion any less valuable if it's of a certain length, long or short. People can take from it what it offers.
Rose wrote: "I get notably upset when people start berating others based on the length of their respective reviews. Some people just write that way and they have every right to be able to express their opinion..."Exactly the point I was trying to make...
Victoria wrote: "Rose wrote: "I get notably upset when people start berating others based on the length of their respective reviews. Some people just write that way and they have every right to be able to express ..."I was actually agreeing with you, just said it differently. =)
I don't need to read an entire book to know whether I like it or not. Why put yourself through agony just for the satisfaction of saying "this book really deserved one star"? That being said, I always download the sample and won't purchase if I don't like it or don't find it up to standard. I've only left one single star rating, and that was for a nonfiction book that didn't deliver anything of what it promised.
Jason wrote: "This is interesting. As a self-published author, my only defense is "I didn't know." I don't read through other reviews, looking for replies from the author to diss out their reactions, and I've ne..."I am in the same boat J.T. I didn't realize that this was such an issue, and on behalf of the SP community, I apologize. Before I released my first book, I had MAJOR editing help from a writer. Still, there are things that were wrong that were caught early on, but I did a soft release in hopes to catch those things. Some of my best critics were actually authors. SP is sort of a double-edged sword here. You can't NOT release your book because you couldn't get a publisher to back your manuscript and in all honesty, that would be a shame. There are lots of great stories out there by SP authors that we may have missed out on, had we not had the venue's available to us today. However, you are right. I think there is a better way to go about this and I didn't realize this was happening on such a large scale. It does give other SP's a bad wrap and makes readers more reluctant to pick an SP book up. I think the best approach an SP author can take is to pre-release the book to those that will be honest and REALLY go through the book and before heavy promotion is done. After-all, the only person that is really going to lose credibility is the SP author. Thanks for making me aware of this issue and I hope to never make a reader feel that way.
EJ wrote. I think the best approach an SP author can take is to pre-release the book to those that will be honest and REALLY go through the book and before heavy promotion is doneWould that be beta readers? Or just a soft-opening (as you mentioned for your own work).
It's a good idea to hold off on a big promotion. It's hard not to miss some mistakes. They're even there sometimes in traditionally published books.
Dina wrote: "EJ wrote. I think the best approach an SP author can take is to pre-release the book to those that will be honest and REALLY go through the book and before heavy promotion is doneWould that be be..."
Sorry, when say soft, I mean, light promotion,maybe with one marketing outlet. I do like the idea of Beta readers and think it should be disclosed that's what you are doing. But you are correct, I have read plenty of traditionally published books that had mistakes.
EJ,I'm so bad with promotion, no matter what I do....my sales will probably be VERY light. I usually see that as a bad thing, but you've made me see there's some good in it ; )
Dina wrote: "EJ,I'm so bad with promotion, no matter what I do....my sales will probably be VERY light. I usually see that as a bad thing, but you've made me see there's some good in it ; )"
It's tough, I'm still learning:)
Dina, EJ,No matter how many readers and editors you have, rest assured there will be some aspect in any book you may write that someone somewhere will find to call a mistake, a typo, or not as well done as it could have been. Sometimes 'typos and errors' aren't -- sometimes the reader has simply run into a valid word new to them.
Beta-readers are nice when you can find them, just as having another author reading your work can be a great help.
I've got a novel in the hands of an editor, and for those people who have read it I made certain they knew it was in the editor's hands. I also supplied those readers with a free Epub or Mobi version.
R.F.G. wrote: "Dina, EJ,No matter how many readers and editors you have, rest assured there will be some aspect in any book you may write that someone somewhere will find to call a mistake, a typo, or not as we..."
R.F.G,
One thing I'm thinking is that people will be more forgiving of a few mistakes if they're loving the story. Of course if you have a lot of mistakes it might be hard to enjoy the story.
If I'm loving a book and come across a missing comma or a typo, I'll probably think nothing of it. Or I'll even be amused.
If I'm bored by a book and come across a mistake I'm likely to use it as an excuse to quit reading.
It's also the same for people who break rules.
I was once annoyed at a book for not using quotation marks, but then I had to admit I've read other books lacking them and was fine.
Today I beta read a well-written story that didn't change paragraphs for alternating characters in dialogue. I saw it as a sign of being an amateur. Yet if I read the same from an established author published traditionally, I'd probably just see it as being "artsy" and "literary"
Rose wrote: "Victoria wrote: "Rose wrote: "I get notably upset when people start berating others based on the length of their respective reviews. Some people just write that way and they have every right to be..."I did get that, but thanks for clarifying. ;)
Jack wrote: "Michael wrote: "A book of mine (HELL'S GATE) had two, five star reviews written up by two readers I had no connection with. They made me feel on top of the world. There were no more reviews added until someone posted a nine word comment and gave me a one star review. Why did that reader bother? Sometimes the review says more about the reviewer than the book. So true. I was hospitalized when my giveaway came due, and one of the winners gave me a one-star review because she hadn't received the book in a timely manner. How do you review a book you've never seen? Oh well. As you say, says more about her than me... "
as you are both reacting to it publicly, perhaps it says just as much about you as the reviewers?
Sorry but authors should not be reacting to reviews except internally.
Dina wrote: "If I'm loving a book and come across a missing comma or a typo, I'll probably think nothing of it. Or I'll even be amused."Dina,
I read a 400,000+ word novel, saw four typos, and loved the book even though it wasn't a typical read for me. The writer refers to herself as a hobby writer, though I'd have to say she excelled at editing her own work.
The problem is too many people hold one standard for SPAs versus TPAs. The typo (or other issue) found in a traditionally-published work is considered a failure of the editors or proofreaders. For the self-published work it's automatically assumed to be due to the writer being an amateur and therefore the book is not worth reading.
Dina wrote: "One thing I'm thinking is that people will be more forgiving of a few mistakes if they're loving the story. Of course if you have a lot of mistakes it might be hard to enjoy the story."
I can forgive some mistakes as long as the story grabs my attention, though as you said too many mistakes can pose problems.
Oh well, time for me to get ready for tiny demon warrior princess to wake up looking for a diaper change and her first-breakfast bottle. One of these centuries I might be able to write again.
R.F.G. wrote: "Dina, EJ,Sometimes 'typos and errors' aren't -- sometimes the reader has simply run into a valid word new to them."
I recently reviewed a book with anywhere from 2 to 7 grammatical errors on EACH PAGE. I also encountered a new word I'd never before heard or seen: "particularized". I looked it up before commenting, and was surprised to discover it was a legitimate word. However, once I knew what it meant, it was evident the writer did not know what it meant, because it was used in reference to a person being reduced to 'particles' and beamed aboard a UFO... so I still had to comment on it. FYI, I did NOT post a review, but was simply proof-reading it for the author.
Dina wrote: "EJ wrote. It's a good idea to hold off on a big promotion. It's hard not to miss some mistakes. They're even there sometimes in traditionally published books."I honestly believe the Bible is the only book I've ever read that did NOT have a mistake or two. But then I've always been a Grammar Nazi.
Grampy wrote: "I honestly believe the Bible is the only book I've ever read that did NOT have a mistake or two. But then I've always been a Grammar Nazi."The errors would be where references to Asherah weren't quite edited completely out by the Patriarchs.
Grampy wrote: "Dina wrote: "EJ wrote. It's a good idea to hold off on a big promotion. It's hard not to miss some mistakes. They're even there sometimes in traditionally published books."I honestly believe the Bible is the only book I've ever read that did NOT have a mistake or two. But then I've always been a Grammar Nazi. ..."
well the Bible has been through a fair few editorial hands... Maybe no grammar mistakes, but plenty calling for suspension of the reader's disbelief
Julie wrote: "I'll admit I was rather terrified to put my book up on KDP because I had no one to edit it. I couldn't afford the minimum 3 grand for a pro (that was the least expensive I found) and just didn't k..."Julie, the professional editors are too expensive for me too. I might consider if I knew I was going to get my investment back.
It sounds like you did well on your own, so that inspires me. Well, it gives me hope that I'll be okay as well.
I'm sorry you had trouble finding friends to read and edit. It sounds like the type of thing that happens to me, so I can relate. My husband's been nice enough to read my new one though, so I'm grateful to him, at least.
Oh well, time for me to get ready for tiny demon warrior princess to wake up looking for a diaper change and her first-breakfast bottle. One of these centuries I might be able to write again. It's not easy to write or edit when you have a baby! It's an accomplishment just to read sometimes!
Dina wrote: "It's not easy to write or edit when you have a baby! It's an accomplishment just to read sometimes!"She's already had second-breakfast and is chasing the kat.
I'm doing good to get out of the house some days, which reminds me it's garbage day.
Julie wrote: "I'll admit I was rather terrified to put my book up on KDP because I had no one to edit it. I couldn't afford the minimum 3 grand for a pro (that was the least expensive I found) and just didn't k..."I don't think you need to put 3 grand on the table for an editing job, Julie.
Chris wrote: "Marc wrote: Sorry but authors should not be reacting to reviews except internally. So we authors are not allowed to talk to each other about our reviews? Sez who? We can talk about anything we li..."
I think it's fine to talk about reviews as long as we're not trashing the reviewer. And it would be especially wrong to talk about it in a way that encourages other people to trash the reviewer.
A few years ago, on my blog, I talked about a book I had read. I didn't like it, but wasn't awful about it. Then later I found the author had quoted my review on her blog. She didn't say anything negative about me, but I was somewhat embarrassed. Or I felt bad for not liking her book. I actually commented on her blog and tried to explain myself.
Back then I was a bit annoyed, but later I've come to see it in a different light. There's so much bragging on the internet...so many people retweeting any ounce of praise they've received. Here's this writer posting her negative reviews. Now I'm thinking it's kind of awesome. Although she never responded to my comment. It would have been nice if she had done that.
Chris wrote: "Marc wrote: Sorry but authors should not be reacting to reviews except internally. So we authors are not allowed to talk to each other about our reviews? Sez who? We can talk about anything we li..."
You can talk about what you like, but imagine any reader who doesn't also write reading this thread. It's going to seem like a load of authors whinging about reader reviews. And yes, I'm afraid it can come over as a little bit boring and self-involved.
Chris wrote: "Marc wrote: You can talk about what you like, but imagine any reader who doesn't also write reading this thread. OP's question is addressed to authors. Even though this group is dedicated to connecting readers with authors, this is an authors' thread, not a readers' thread...."
Sez who?
This is the type of exclusivity and self-involvement from authors that loses readers rather than gains them. Readers aren't entitled to pitch into this debate and give their point of view?
Chris wrote: "OP's question is addressed to authors. Even though this group is dedicated to connecting readers with authors, this is an authors' thread, not a readers' thread."I beg to differ, no disrespect intended. I've been following this thread since the beginning and it's not a discussion that's isolated to one party. This is a thread that's trying to address the issue from a reader's perspective trying to evaluate why authors don't become more proactive in speaking against authors who attack readers for their opinions/reviews. I should think that this is a discussion on an equal playing field and should be respected as such.
I'm equal parts reader (though mostly I'm a reader/blogger at this time) and writer (aspiring), and even I have issues with authors discussing reactions to reviews in public spaces, especially when the discussion levels an attack against someone having an honest reaction to the work regardless of tone or space. You can't control what other people say about a work, but you can control how you react to it, ultimately. I think it's important to remember that behind every opinion, there's still a person behind that, and that even if you may disagree with the way that person reacts to a work, that you still have to respect that person's right to say what they think and feel about it, and be able to pick up the pieces to move forward from that, even if it stings. Of course a writer has a right to feel what they feel in response to reading discussions about their work, but being able to handle that is important.
Commiserating in a way that undermines the value of variant perspectives to something you write isn't right, or fair really.
I keep citing Voltaire's quote in every discussion I have on this: "I may not like what you say, but I defend to my death your right to say it."
Julie wrote: " I couldn't afford the minimum 3 grand for a pro (that was the least expensive I found) and just didn't know even if I could if it would be worth it if anyone who read it thought the story sucked anyway."I find myself trotting out this advice regularly. There are a number of ways to obtain editing services without breaking the bank. You can barter something you're good at for editing. You can contact your local community college journalism department and arrange for an advanced editing student to do your manuscript as a school project, under the supervision of a teacher.
IMO, "I can't afford it, so readers can just suck it up" is not a very professional attitude. :-(
IMO, "I can't afford it, so readers can just suck it up" is not a very professional attitude. :-( Not only is it unprofessional to say that, it's rude, and selfish as well.
But Julie didn't say that. She did the editing herself, which is challenging, but judging from the reviews her book has received, I think she managed to do a good job of it.
From what I understand, pleasing the reader's very important to Julie, and she managed to find a way to do that.
I also think it makes a difference that people can buy Julie's book for less than a dollar.
I feel bad because my own novel has formatting errors and was sold as a paperback for much more than a dollar. BUT I didn't have the attitude that "readers can suck it up."
My god, is this string still alive??? Step away, people, step away! Last time I was here was about page 3 or 4 and it was getting poisonous then (started out that way, I think).
Im backing out. Good luck...
I can't believe someone said this is an "authors thread." I don't have enough time to go into all the things wrong with that statement.
Julie wrote: "If anyone has a recommendation for a good editor that is more affordable that would be great in case I decide to keep going this route on my own."If you send me a PM, I will send you the names of two editors. You'll have to send both a sample of your work and ask them to show you what they would do. Go with the one who makes you feel best about a collaboration.
The main thing is that you need an editor who is obviously supportive enough to give you constructive criticism that you can and will take to improve.
Dina wrote: "BUT I didn't have the attitude that "readers can suck it up." The unfortunate reality is that plenty of authors have indeed said that, using those very words ... or at least displayed the attitude.
There's no reason why you can't act as your own editor if you make sure to take the time to go through everything carefully; I've seen proffessionally edited works with at least a couple of typos on every page, and I've seen self-edited work without a single typo. As for taking editing in to consideration when doing reviews... If there are only a few typos or grammatical issues I'll let them slide, but if there are absolutely loads of them I won't give the full 5 star rating. Even the best authors and editors can miss a few typos, but sometimes it's obvious little effort has been made when it comes to editing (whether it be an author or an editor who has failed to do the editing properly).Readers have every right to feel whatever they do about a book, and authors have every right to feel whatever they do about a review. The thing everyone needs to remember is that attacking each other for feeling what we do is wrong, and should be avoided at all costs. It doesn't matter if it's a group of authors, a group of readers, or a mixed group containing authors and readers, nor if it's a pair of authors, a pair of readers, or an author and a reader... The rules should be the same: show respect for the other person's opinions and feelings.
This is all I'm going to say on the matter.
Even the Bible gets one star reviews on Amazon, I wonder if God is a well behaved author and takes it on the chin, or is busy striking the reviewers down with great fury and anger.To be fair a lot of the criticism regarding the plot, character development and structure was unfair, its not like he had a Dan Brown novel to plagiarise is it.
Apologies to all the Christians this is bound to of offended, its the internet, you can't do snark without causing a mass sense of humour failure in at least 20 percent of people.
Goodreads Authors/Readers
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I honestly don't see why this is a problem or reflects badly on the reviewer? I've left some reviews that were fairly short myself. Some as simple as "Great story, loved the characters" or "Story didn't engage me, characters were dull". I don't think every review needs to be a full book report to convey feelings about the book.