Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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If you want readers, why aren't you defending them?
Ken wrote: "...A few years ago I went to a big box store and bought a bargain lawnmower. The thing quit in 3 months. Did I call Toro and complain about the way they allowed inferior competitors to make and sell inferior lawnmowers, making the entire industry look bad?..."Ken, I'm sorry but I didn't read your entire post (eyes too tired to deal w/ wall-o-text right now). Just wanted to note that your analogy is not entirely on point b/c Toro isn't in the 'same market' as the maker of your bargain lawnmower.
That's akin to comparing trad-pub'd w/ SPAs--which, if honest, most would agree aren't comparable for the vast majority of SP books.
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TinaNicole ☠ Le Book Nikita ☠ wrote: "Nobody is saying that anyone needs to be anyone's keeper, Paul.
"
Sure you are. By saying that I should enter a situation that I happen to come upon between two people on the internet that is not of my own doing and take a certain side, you are asking me to do just that.
I would address more of your post but the fact that you equate name calling on the internet to what sparked the civil rights movement, I think I have to check out.
"
Sure you are. By saying that I should enter a situation that I happen to come upon between two people on the internet that is not of my own doing and take a certain side, you are asking me to do just that.
I would address more of your post but the fact that you equate name calling on the internet to what sparked the civil rights movement, I think I have to check out.
Wow. For Mahala (who may or may not have actually left the thread): There is always the possibility that the authors you are calling on to act and/or speak up have not read what has touched you off yet or are, you know, not actually present at the keyboard to respond when you want them to.
Demanding that people act now now now! and then berating them for not responding in your definition of a timely manner is exactly the sort of expectation of "policing" that I will argue against until I'm blue. It's a shame you're frustrated and disappointed that we didn't live up to your expectations, but you have to leave room for us to be human, too.
As far as the insults from Paul -and- Tina, btw? Neither were appropriate.
Sorry, Paul, you don't get to throw vulgar insults into a conversation where they didn't exist before and then claim any sort of innocence.
Tina, just because one person starts it, there's no need to engage in like fashion.
Like Lily, I was pretty impressed with the overall civility of the thread. But, this is the internet, so...
Amanda wrote: "This is my personal account and my book hasn't been published yet. Maybe I will get more sales once it is out if authors like you stopped calling people names and making other people look bad. Do you realize how difficult it is to get bloggers and readers to read our books when readers have to deal with your sort of petty bullshit? "
Cool. So your complaint about me being a deterrence to your book sales is completely hypothetical and not based in reality?
Cool. So your complaint about me being a deterrence to your book sales is completely hypothetical and not based in reality?
Here's a newsflash for some folks: People self-police w/in their industry and profession ALL. THE. TIME. Lawyers and doctors have professional standards & ethics to which they have to adhere. Other professions have codes of conduct.Hello???? How do you think that compliance is generally maintained among thousands, if not millions?
*smh/leaves thread*
Paul, first of all you are a douche.You know you just put down 2 readers don't you? Did you even check before you resulted to name calling? Of course not.
Second of all. This thread was fine before you ruined it. It was a logical discussion. YOU ruined that. That's why I am getting tired of trying to read SPA's! People like you do that.
Paul wrote: "TinaNicole ☠ Le Book Nikita ☠ wrote: "Nobody is saying that anyone needs to be anyone's keeper, Paul."
Sure you are. By saying that I should enter a situation that I happen to come upon between t..."
I certainly don't equate civil rights movements to online name calling. Just like I don't equate rape and mass genocide with readers leaving negative reviews.
And you're still missing my point, but I don't really care. You've helped to contribute to it greatly, so I can only thank you.
See ya.
S.L. wrote: "Wow.
For Mahala (who may or may not have actually left the thread): There is always the possibility that the authors you are calling on to act and/or speak up have not read what has touched you ..."
I second all of that.
For Mahala (who may or may not have actually left the thread): There is always the possibility that the authors you are calling on to act and/or speak up have not read what has touched you ..."
I second all of that.
Gregor wrote: "Mahala wrote: "Paul wrote: "It's not my place to tell complete strangers how to behave. Doing so is not akin to marketing in my opinion. Regardless of how you want to twist it, you're simply involv...""Yeah, I mostly flag and ignore childishness. I agree that it was flagged and that is sufficient."
S.L. Please don't try to scold me for reacting when someone calls me a cunt. Sorry, but I'm not going to sit back and pretend it didn't happen so others can pretend it didn't happen. Yeah, let's all just keep talking around it, that'll solve the problem.Mahala had the right idea. I've had quite enough myself. Now you guys can go ahead and pump your books and talk about how reviewers bring it on themselves. Enjoy. And I don't care who thinks that's 'childishness'.
I am guessing that a lot of the disgust that authors are not getting engaged with flame wars comes from people younger than me. Some of us not only remember Amazon being launched, but also Bill Gates saying that the internet was not a business priority. Author engagement with readers then consisted of the polite engagement of book readings and signings and hand written fan mail. Many of us also know that this vitriol by some authors is similar to that engaged in by open source software authors (yes I also remember the announcement of what became the open source movement). Among those of us maturer (in years) even those who are techies have little fondness for social media hate fests, as we got burnt in our younger days on forums and in chat rooms. We do not owe it to those readers who like to be active on social media to get involved. Most readers want most writers to write great books for them to read. Most readers do not even write reviews and a most writers do not read them. The only thing that a self-published author owes to her readers is a book that is worthy of the asking price.
Gavin wrote: "I'm sorry I haven't been able to say anything until now as I couldn't find the thread before. Stupid mobile phones, tricky little buggars. Anyway, I first feel the need to apologise to ANY reader w..."This a million times!!!!
I'm so getting you a green suit!
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D.A. - Please don't mock bully victims. wrote: "D.C. wrote: "...I don't know that GR would do it, but I'm wondering if broader guidelines detailing both professional behavior and how reviewing books works might not defuse some of the more ration..."The author guidelines, while not always as clear as one might wish, do make it fairly obvious that you're not supposed to attack other members. The problem is that I really think some SPA's, especially less experienced ones, may perceive negative reviews and ratings as attacks on them, the way they would be on some other social/creative sites like Pinterest or Polyvore. Making it clear that it is closer to a product review might deter some of the not completely nuts authors from making idiots of themselves.
Honestly, not only are Goodreads reviews not professional reviews, I don't even really think they're consumer reviews like the ones on Amazon, or if Ken went to Yelp and wrote a review of his lawnmower. They are user reviews, but the function does seem to be a little more discussion oriented, and far less 'shall I buy X product?' Regardless, readers are free to rate and review as they see fit. I don't think it's appropriate for a reader to state in a review that an author is an idiot, any more than it's appropriate for an author to say a similar thing about a reviewer or a fellow author, but anything of a critical nature is clearly not only within site guidelines, but kind of the point of being here. Up to and including "this appears to have been written by a team of blind and drunken wombats."
It is also frankly unprofessional for an author to comment on a review FOR ANY REASON. I just read a review of one of my books that I was extremely tempted to comment on because the reviewer, in addition to being complimentary, got exactly what I was trying to say. And you can't. You just can't. No-one wants or needs to play policeman, but I think authors do have an obligation to say things like that in public forums. And repeat them.
Amanda wrote: "It's not hypothetical. Go sample 20 or so book bloggers and their sites. Check out their review request pages and come back and tell me what they say. Many bloggers are not accepting books put out by SP authors anymore because of your sort of behavior toward them or their community. They are too afraid to take a chance on SP authors because of the exact sort of thing you did to the person in this group. Put another way, you're making the rest of us look bad! "
Excuse me, Amanda. The reason those bloggers aren't taking books is not because of authors being crass in discussion threads. It's because of people who act unprofessional in their ventures. People who email them 9 million times in a week asking when their review will be up. It's because of authors not liking the review and they blast the reviewer publicly, sometimes even in their own comments section.
I have had plenty of blogs and sites as well as magazines review my work and they'd gladly do it again because I was professional in our dealings. So don't blame me for your mythical problems involving something that you have no experience in dealing with.
Excuse me, Amanda. The reason those bloggers aren't taking books is not because of authors being crass in discussion threads. It's because of people who act unprofessional in their ventures. People who email them 9 million times in a week asking when their review will be up. It's because of authors not liking the review and they blast the reviewer publicly, sometimes even in their own comments section.
I have had plenty of blogs and sites as well as magazines review my work and they'd gladly do it again because I was professional in our dealings. So don't blame me for your mythical problems involving something that you have no experience in dealing with.
D.C. wrote: "It is also frankly unprofessional for an author to comment on a review FOR ANY REASON. I just read a review of one of my books that I was extremely tempted to comment on because the reviewer, in addition to being complimentary, got exactly what I was trying to say. And you can't. You just can't."Depends. Positive interactions with a reader are an encouraging thing. It may be a matter of personal taste from reviewer to reviewer, author to author, but I can think of many people who actually like hearing from an author saying something like "I'm so happy you liked it! And thank you for your very articulate review!" There's nothing wrong with that.
Many people appreciate that kind of interaction, because on social media, that's kind of what you do. Building positive connections/interactions is a good thing, and for some, getting a message from an author saying they appreciated your review is an awesome one. I got tweets and PMs from a few authors the other day complimenting my reviews of their works. Made my day.
It's when an author starts telling/instructing people what to think that lands an author in hot water, even to the point of belittlement or trying to shape how the reviewer should write their review or reflect on an author's work. It's both offensive and a conflict of interest. It can be condescending and invasive of the way a reader experiences a work when it comes to that.
I've noticed time again, the number one cause of online arguments - culture clash.It's great we all have access to this wonderful communication tool. Not so great to see on an international level that we all think in very different terms and so willing to bash others for having, gasp and shock, their own personality.
Personally, I hardly noticed the word cunt was used. In Canada and the UK (maybe Australia too, but I'm not positive on that one), the word cunt is often used as a fun ribbing term. "Get me another ale, you cunt." Insert silly laughter from drunken friends here.
Of course, context is important, and yes it was obviously used as a derogatory term in this case. Will everyone be automatically offended by the use of the word cunt? Nope. This is the reason any kind of policing can be dangerous and can quickly become nothing more than another form of bullying, because opinions can be argued. For myself, I disregard that mindset of policing. When it's wrong and/or illegal, it's obvious. When it's only questionable, then it's a matter of opinion, whether anyone likes that fact or not, and deserves to be taken with a massive chunk of salt. Swallow the bitter taste of your pride, and move on.
I would like to go back to the original OP question. Why aren't we all defending bullied readers? I believe the answer is simple. Don't have bullied readers in the first place, by simply taking full responsibility for your writing. I'm not saying anyone is being irresponsible on purpose. Inexperienced, maybe. And I do place full responsibility on all writers, whether an author or a reviewer, we're all responsible for our own actions.
Shelby wrote: "Paul, first of all you are a douche.
You know you just put down 2 readers don't you? Did you even check before you resulted to name calling? Of course not.
Second of all. This thread was fine bef..."
I didn't put down two readers. I put down a group of so-called readers who make prejudgements about what they deem to be a group of authors based on their experience with a few. If a couple of posters happened to catch a little shrapnel, oh well. That's how I feel.
I never attacked or confronted a reviewer. I never have and I never will. Even when I knew for fact someone hadn't read my work and scorched it, I shrugged it off.
Why am I to blame when another person doesn't have that same level of professionalism?
Here's one for you. Say all of us SPAs come together and start going after BBAs, will you as readers police amongst yourselves? Will you jump on someone for personally attacking an author?
Do you see how ridiculous this notion is?
You know you just put down 2 readers don't you? Did you even check before you resulted to name calling? Of course not.
Second of all. This thread was fine bef..."
I didn't put down two readers. I put down a group of so-called readers who make prejudgements about what they deem to be a group of authors based on their experience with a few. If a couple of posters happened to catch a little shrapnel, oh well. That's how I feel.
I never attacked or confronted a reviewer. I never have and I never will. Even when I knew for fact someone hadn't read my work and scorched it, I shrugged it off.
Why am I to blame when another person doesn't have that same level of professionalism?
Here's one for you. Say all of us SPAs come together and start going after BBAs, will you as readers police amongst yourselves? Will you jump on someone for personally attacking an author?
Do you see how ridiculous this notion is?
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D.A. - Please don't mock bully victims. wrote: "I still get cranky seeing things like how we must justify ratings, must review as well as rating, must provide constructive reviews to support author growth, never post anything but positive reviews and instead privately communicate the negative review to the author, stop quoting excerpts as examples of bad editing and instead privately communicate those line edits to the author then re-read and re-review their revised edition again providing line edits as needed ... "^ This.
This is Goodreads, not Kirkus. People here aren't professional reviewers, nor are they our beta-readers, for that matter. They're regular readers, cataloguing the books they read, sharing reviews if they want, or not sharing them. They're not our agents, marketing tools or whatever. Any author who doesn't understand that should maybe question their choice of a venture. Sure, bad reviews will hurt sales. So what? I doubt they'll hurt them as much as the author throwing a temper tantrum.
I'm also tempted to say that author =/= book, and that an author behaving badly shouldn't affect our decision to read or not their books, because it'd be a childish reaction. I honestly try to keep that in mind. But there's a line all the same, and when an author crosses it repeatedly, I admit my patience ends up wearing thin, and after a while I just remove that name from my list of "people whose books I want to read someday".
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Mercia wrote: "Among those of us maturer (in years) even those who are techies have little fondness for social media hate fests, as we got burnt in our younger days on forums and in chat rooms. We do not owe it to those readers who like to be active on social media to get involved. Most readers want most writers to write great books for them to read. Most readers do not even write reviews and a most writers do not read them. The only thing that a self-published author owes to her readers is a book that is worthy of the asking price. "
Mercia you are SO right!
S.L. wrote: "For Mahala (who may or may not have actually left the thread): There is always the possibility that the authors you are calling on to act and/or speak up have not read what has touched you off yet or are, you know, not actually present at the keyboard to respond when you want them to."Exactly.
I'm not a GR moderator, and I actually have three jobs to run, so I'm not monitoring GoodReads 24/7. Just because my post came after Paul's insult doesn't mean I read what he wrote, so I wasn't 'silently watching while someone was slinging derogatory remarks', I was making dinner for my wife and children (different timezone).
So, Mahala, you can stamp off in a huff thinking that I and other people silently watched this incident and refused to involve ourselves, while in fact I agree with Lily that before Paul called Tina a cunt, the discussion was amiable and civilized.
Had I read the insult, I would've jumped in and flagged the comment (as I have now) and I would've berated Paul for acting like an uncouth speshul snowflake.
Amanda this may come as a shock to you, but I don't agree with STGRB. They are a biased blog and are more than transparent in their agenda. I have witnessed them siding with authors who were clearly in the wrong numerous times.
I don't condone anyone who stalks and harasses anyone for any reason. I'll voice my opinion, but what I won't do tell others how they should behave or how they should feel about an issue.
I don't condone anyone who stalks and harasses anyone for any reason. I'll voice my opinion, but what I won't do tell others how they should behave or how they should feel about an issue.
Martyn V. wrote: "S.L. wrote: "For Mahala (who may or may not have actually left the thread): There is always the possibility that the authors you are calling on to act and/or speak up have not read what has touched..."Martyn, I just figured that you, like I, had seen it, flagged it, and wasn't giving it the validation of a response.
Interesting to see writers bent out of shape about a word.
Oh well, sorry all.
Oh well, sorry all.
Martyn, amen. That's what I tried to say. If I see an author behaving badly AND I have time to comment about it (between work, family, writing, volunteer work, etc.), then I will. However, I suspect that the worst of the lot (on both sides, authors and readers) have too much time on their hands and that is perhaps why they must devote so much time into bashing other people. I would love to see authors berating the speshul snowflakes (or educating them if they are ignorant, as is sometimes the case) and I'd also like to see readers not defending readers who actually do attack someone.
I admit that sadly, I see more badly behaving "writers" than badly behaving readers.
And Paul, I actually see your point, but you immediately lose your point and your side of the argument when you resort to name calling. Just because the opposing argument doesn't get your point is no excuse to use language. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Be professional. Imagine yourself wearing a suit, talking with clients or some such thing. Because 3R is right about that--these are our customers and they should be treated with respect.
Paul wrote: "Interesting to see writers bent out of shape about a word. Oh well, sorry all."
Not just a word, but the way you used it to attack Tina. And you belittled Amanda's aspirations as an author and assuming what she did (or didn't) observe. Those were personal attacks that had no place in this discussion. Not at all.
You have the right to an opinion, and that's fine, but don't condescend others just because you disagree with them. This really was a good discussion (maybe intense at times, but still good) until it got derailed by the insult.
D.C. wrote: "Martyn, I just figured that you, like I, had seen it, flagged it, and wasn't giving it the validation of a response."No, the thing is, while I was writing my post, the whole incident happened, and even after I posted my post, I only saw the post I was replying on. Then, after dinner, I refreshed the page and saw the whole incident and realised that it must've looked like I read Paul's derogatory remark and ignored it. However, that's not how these boards work. It's not like Instant Messaging, where the replies of the others are constantly updated while you type your message.
Edit: For instance, while I was writing my post, the post above my screen was #181, but when I refreshed after posting I wasn't post 182, but 185. So anything can happen while I'm typing this...
Every single author who posted in this thread after Paul called Tina a cunt should have called him out by name. He should rightly be flagged, but I'm wondering how, in a thread asking how authors can look at insults served up to readers and not respond, a disgusting insult is served up right under your nose you can just turn your head.Lily Author, D.C. Williams, J.D. Brink, H.M. Jones and Ken Doggett - some of you flat-out ignored it and some of you presented vague excuses about why it was kind of okay to ignore it. Neither fly.
Paul wrote: "Interesting to see writers bent out of shape about a word. Oh well, sorry all."
Paul, as a writer, you know the power of words, or you should.
As it appears that you're an American, and an adult, you are aware of how using that word as a pejorative (which is how you used it) would be taken, or you should be.
So brushing it off as "a word" is disingenuous at best. You're free to have your own opinions, of course, and express them as you see fit. But once you've expressed yourself, you really ought to stand by what you wrote, and not try to brush it off as anything other than what you intended.
(ETA: Paul did not say "just". Removed.)
Barbara ♥~Lindt Ninja~♥ wrote: "Every single author who posted in this thread after Paul called Tina a cunt should have called him out by name. He should rightly be flagged, but I'm wondering how, in a thread asking how authors c..."I did not ignore it. I flagged it. Twice actually, when he repeated the offense.
I did not see any reason to indulge his bid for attention by responding to or acknowledging it.
As far as I'm concerned, I just flag such comments as inappropriate. At the time, I think I was more focused on answering to Paul's first post, and didn't even see the insulting one after... I don't know, some time, I can't remember.But comments goading everyone to "react, like, RIGHT NOW!" are also somewhat crude and insulting. It's OK. I've seen it. I've flagged it. I'm all up for defending people, but don't tell me how nor when. This is MY call to make.
Paul wrote: "Interesting to see writers bent out of shape about a word. Oh well, sorry all."
Most writers understand the power of words.
Edit: S.L. beat me to it.
Barbara ♥~Lindt Ninja~♥ wrote: "Every single author who posted in this thread after Paul called Tina a cunt should have called him out by name. He should rightly be flagged, but I'm wondering how, in a thread asking how authors can look at insults served up to readers and not respond, a disgusting insult is served up right under your nose you can just turn your head."
Would you care to explain to me how every writer in this thread is responsible for what I chose to type?
And further more, why does one's ability of knowing how to read put them above reproach?
Would you care to explain to me how every writer in this thread is responsible for what I chose to type?
And further more, why does one's ability of knowing how to read put them above reproach?
Richard wrote: "Poor Lily! OMG, It was painful to see your serious post just as this thread tanked. :-("I've been holding on to my life perserver...
Barbara ♥~Lindt Ninja~♥ wrote: "Every single author who posted in this thread after Paul called Tina a cunt should have called him out by name. He should rightly be flagged, but I'm wondering how, in a thread asking how authors c..."Barbara, I understand what you're saying, but with both the delay when posting and refreshing the thread and the fact that not everyone was 'at keyboard' when the civilized discussion suddenly turned into an unexpected flamefest, not all the authors in this thread were 'on hand' to respond in a timely fashion. At least, not in the time Mahala considered appropriate to respond (18 minutes from insult until she stormed off). If I had refreshed the page before I stepped away from my keyboard to fix dinner, I would've responded straight away. But, like I said before, this isn't instant messaging, so anything can happen between writing a post and refreshing the thread.
Mahala wrote: "I'm so glad so many of you know exactly what I was saying, no, that was demanding wasn't it? How comforting to know that I'm the bad guy. Let's see-we're all debating right along wheb Paul, dear ..."
Mahala, maybe it would also have helped if you hadn't been so passive-aggressive about it. (I quote) "Hello? Is any author here going to address that comment or is this what you don't want to get involved in? Right here, right now, people." In its own way, it was liable to antagonise people rather than end up the way you would've liked. Also, I can't help but notice that YOU didn't address Paul directly—not that I can remember. You did it indirectly, by basically implying everyone online at that moment was a coward. But not so directly. (I get that you probably aimed at shaking people by pointing at the irony; I just doubt wording it like that was so efficient.)
Linda wrote: "What Mahala said was that "right now" too many of the authors in this very thread are backing away from doing what has been pointed out to them over and over is what they need to do to self-regulat..."Well, what is the right thing? There's clearly some disagreement. Obviously that kind of language, especially directed at another GR member is not acceptable, and I think we can all agree flagging it is appropriate.
Calling him out on it? Possibly, especially if there were some reason to think he might not realize how outrageously offensive his words were. In this instance, since the offender had all the credibility of a four-year-old who has just learned a bad word, I could see no reason to reward him with my attention. You may or may not agree with me, but I stand by my actions.
In my honest and humble opinion, any author, anywhere, who's under the delusion that anyone would owe them a royalty check just for stringing along enough words to call it a book, isn't an author I have any interest in reading. Again, in my opinion, I don't see Paul's behavior as being any worse than a number of people on this thread.We all have a choice. Add fuel to the flames of immaturity, or move the hell on.
ThreeRs (Got Logic?) wrote: "I think she had a very good point in wanting to see some of you--the very same people who have been rather defensive about how you do speak up when it's in front of you-- speak up. "
And some of us did.
If the argument is not that all of us need to respond publicly every time, then hasn't the call been answered?
Ah the delightful "C" word. A term of Middle English origin that originally referred to a body part, now used as a pejorative, though not always directed at females since anyone can meet the definition of a contemptible person should they try hard enough.I've been called one more than once, though normally in jest. On those occasions where the person was seriously trying to insult me to my face, I considered the source and walked away.
I suppose I've seen enough situations go south in the real world due to someone trying to get smart with the wrong person at the wrong time.
If I flag something I find unacceptable or call the poli when I see something unacceptable going down, it's a matter of priorities.
Whether in person or online, it is doubtful my attempting to reason with someone doing the wrong thing will seriously modify their behavior for the better.
ThreeRs (Got Logic?) wrote: "*sigh*All in all, I have to say the results on this thread have been very disappointing to me as a reader. Some of you present as feeling very strongly that this is not your problem. Others are..."
These are fair points and I wish I could give you an air-tight reason you should keep trying.
But I can't.
What I can say is this. It's not about blame, it's about responsibility. Ken raised an excellent point about retailers that went ignored for the sake of a pointless argument.
Online publishing has no standards. All online publishing companies, ranging from the dreaded vanity press to ebook companies, have a rejection rate of 0% on average. Word on the online street is the average ebook company has a lifespan of five years. The internet itself moves extremely fast, and hardly anyone can keep up anymore. Companies like Sony are now backing out of the ebook industry because all the money is being hoarded by online retailers reselling books, which means of course, they don''t have to pay anyone any royalties.
Having said all those facts, though I can't answer why you should keep trying, I can offer advice. Whether a book is digital or printed, a good story is a good story. Look past the cover. Talk to people. Get to know authors. I recently gained two new readers by surprise just because I participated in a fun discussion about horror writers. Next thing I knew, two more readers. I sent them each messages thanking them for their review and had lovely conversations. I now think of them as friends.
The internet is virtual and interactive. It's not as simple as picking up a paperback at a bookstore or the library. The ebook industry is far from established and constantly flutuating. For the meantime, until everything is established with standards, the only way is for all digital book consumers to be as interactive as any online author. I'm sure, that way, you'll quickly find out which online authors are sincere about their craft and which just want to behave like a book spammer or a dictator. From there, as a consumer, yu can make your own informed decisions.
Happy reading!
Different actions are appropriate in different circumstances. I did see it, and around the same time Gregor said something about it. I will tell you that I deliberately chose not to respond to it directly because I think the term "drama llama" is absolutely apropos. I figured the miscreant was calculating that every woman on this thread would jump all over him, and that this was something he was deliberately seeking out. Why on earth would I give him what he wanted? This isn't a case of a new and not very well wrapped SPA inappropriately responding to a rating or a review, in which case a reminder of community standards might be helpful. It was deliberately provocative, and I chose not to be provoked. I did flag him, on both posts where he used that particular term.
ThreeRs (Got Logic?) wrote: "At the risk of sounding petulant and contradictory: no."Ah. Well. Okay.
I think judging how many authors "do it right" by the very miniscule number of SPAs actively reading and participating in this thread is probably not the best way to judge such a thing. We probably don't make up even a tenth of a percent of the people who might claim to "do it right".
And that's why I object to the broad brush-stroke approach.
I understand that you wanted to bring the issue of readers feeling like authors won't stand up for them to light in this group. Yes, SPAs (and all authors, honestly) should be aware of what's going on in the marketplace and communities around them.
But I'm going back to *my* original objection that, as the conversation has gone on, it feels more and more that unless we (the collective SPAs) respond to readers in the manner in which you (those who hold your point of view, not you specifically) proscribe, we're -not- doing it right. As a collective, and therefore you're justified in saying that none of us (the collective) are worth reading.
That's why I called it unfair. And though initially it was stated that the intent was -not- to say we had to respond immediately, we (the authors in the group) were given 18 minutes to respond before Mahala was disgusted and flounced in the first place.
As Martyn has pointed out, this is not a real-time conversation where we (any of us) see things and can adjust to a new post as it happens. We have to refresh, reload, etc. Speaking personally, I was -asleep- when Paul's comment came in. Despite the fact that I respond a lot, I do sometimes sleep. It's that human thing.
That said, I don't feel it's a debate when the end goal keeps shifting. If the initial question was, why don't you defend readers? It's been answered: Some of us do. Some of us choose not to engage and they've given their reasons why not.
But the new questions are: Why don't -more- of you do it? Why don't you do it where we can see it? Why don't you do it as quickly as we expect?
And in addition to shifting the end goal, that makes the "question" seem less like a question and more like a lecture.
I'll stop being long-winded about this now. It's been interesting, at least.
ThreeRs (Got Logic?) wrote: "[...]Some of you present as feeling very strongly that this is not your problem. Others are only willing to get involved if they can be totally silent and non-confrontational. [...]If you won't police yourselves, how dare you ask that we do it for you? You want us to take risks to support you, when you're not willing to take any to support us."
(I'm answering your post, but I'm not addressing you specifically, nor only you for that matter. I'm aiming at a general statement.)
The problem as I see it isn't so easy. Conversations on the web have a tendency to easily devolve into insults, ad hominem attacks, and various other nasties. As someone who's been administrator and/or moderator on various blogs and forums over the past 15 years, I'm speaking from personal experience here. The tiniest little thing can fuel the flame, and being confrontational (emphasis mine) is a dangerously fine line to tread. Been there, done that, made my mistakes and my amends, tried to keep the flame wars down to a minimum, and so on.
Unfortunately, when getting "confrontational", it's too easy to accidentally end up giving the wrong people more fodder to strike back with—fodder they'll happily use, since, "hey, look, it works: they're playing our game!" The incriminated post, and its subsequent answers, is a good example of that as well. The way I understood it, either the word was used without thinking (in which case just flagging it was probably the most appropriate response), or it was used specifically to elicit an answer (in which case rising to the bait would be a mistake).
Unfortunately, too, speaking up while not falling into that pit trap is (I think) quite hard to do. It can fall on deaf ears, or be overlooked because it's drowned among more heated posts. Sarcasm will fly over people's heads—or, worse, will be used back against you as "S/HE attacked me, look, I'm the victim!" And then you're not the defender anymore, you're one of the bad guys, who can't make his/her point anymore because of that one little "mistake."
This doesn't mean we must shut up, only that defending other people can't be done by raising up our voices in just any fashion. It must be done in an appropriate way, one that will give the defender the upper hand, make the defender look like the more mature party. It shouldn't be done by stooping down to openly confrontational behaviour. Or, should I say: if you manage to do that without looking like (or be made looking like) someone who's also in the wrong, then kudos to you. Such an art is hard to master.
(This is also why I do my best to answer such posts in what I hope is a diplomatic way and will, I hope, reach the right ears all the same. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Unfortunately again.)
I seem to be invisible, so I'll just say, why show anything if nothing is acknowledged?You can form whatever opinion you like. I think several on here have already stated that they do call out things when they see them. Yet none of them are being acknowledged.
The Internet is impossible to police. All we can really do is be responsible for our own words and actions. Last time I'll post on this conversation. If I see bad behavior, I say something. I have no problem with whatever reviews I receive, and I try to educate other writers that they need a nice thick skin if they want to offer what they have written up to the general public as a product for sale.
What, honestly, would be your expectation for other writers? How would they be able to do anything other than act individually against any wrongs that they find? There is no "Self-Published Writers Association"--you mentioned lawyers, but lawyers DO have professional organizations, as do doctors. Yes, there are some professional organizations for writers, but 95% of SPAs probably don't belong to them. So how would it be possible to know about these activities, let alone act?
If Hugh Howey defended attacking readers or reviews, well then shame on him. If I happen across such a thread, I'll say it to his 'face'.
But I really don't understand what you expect of the 10-15 writers reading this particular thread in a vast sea of 400,000 and more writers self-publishing out there . . . .
(I freely admit that there are undoubtedly far more unprofessional, amateur, and unskilled self-published writers out there than professional, polished, experienced writers. So in terms of numbers, yes, it's depressing but true that there's a lot of chaff and very little wheat.)
One last note. Harper Collins, Penguin, and other major publishing companies have opened up their own lines which are vanity houses (Author House, etc.). So the sign of a publishing house may no longer be a guarantee of quality. Readers, for now, will have to look at the packaging to determine if the product is good. (Cover, blurb, sample). There will be poorly written and well-written on both sides of the line, and I believe over time that line may blur even further.
My advice to readers: Look for professionalism. That's all.
ThreeRs (Got Logic?) wrote: "Wow. As Tina and Mahala have noted, Paul is providing an excellent example of the sort of author I was talking about. I'm happy to see that it doesn't look like he's attacked the people who revie..."Thank you, Three, for not just your comments but pointing out that Paul didn't just call me a cunt. He called an entire group of readers idiots (ya know, those people who buy your books) and then called me a cunt.
Everything else Three said.
Everything Linda said.
Everything Mahala said.
And shame on all of you who made comments regarding how you would do something if it was right in front of you, but when it happens have a million excuses as why this time didn't count.
Goodreads Authors/Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
Simple Jess (other topics)Infinite Jest (other topics)
A Prayer for Owen Meany (other topics)
The Star Of Jolanest: Tales From Tamara (other topics)
Pogo (other topics)
Ken, you raise an excellent point and one that's been bothering me for a long time. It goes with wht I mentioned, about receiving reviews via email instead of online retailers.
Here's a better question. Should online retailers such as Amazon take responsibility for the hostility of online reviews? I know for a fact that Amazon UK does screen reviews, but for some reason Amazon.com doesn't. Here's another weird fact. Amazon.ca doesn't provide previews of books, but Amazon.com does. This inconsistency across the internet may very well be the underlying cause of all problems.