Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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If you want readers, why aren't you defending them?
D.C. wrote: "[...] I figured the miscreant was calculating that every woman on this thread would jump all over him, and that this was something he was deliberately seeking out. Why on earth would I give him what he wanted? This isn't a case of a new and not very well wrapped SPA inappropriately responding to a rating or a review, in which case a reminder of community standards might be helpful. It was deliberately provocative, and I chose not to be provoked. I did flag him, on both posts where he used that particular term."To be honest, this is what it felt like to me at the time. Hence my previous post about responding in appropriate manners.
Yzabel wrote: "D.C. wrote: "[...] I figured the miscreant was calculating that every woman on this thread would jump all over him, and that this was something he was deliberately seeking out. Why on earth would I..."I'm glad I'm not the only person who perceived it that way. It very much felt like that to me, but it's easy to second guess yourself.
To be honest I arrived at the discussion late. Something about my not-yet-four-month-old infant daughter wanting to be regularly fed and changed, as well as dishes and laundry kind of impeded my ability to answer. Which reminds me, I need to put Wife's clothes on hangers.SPAs, like TPAs and HPAs, are a varied lot. Some may have nothing to do apart from cashing royalty checks, attending cocktail parties, and writing the next best-seller, the vast majority of others have other responsibilities and duties keeping them busy.
To be honest, whether it's online or in the real world the only person whose actions I can consistently control is me. If I see something objectionable and report it (real world or online), it's not about taking the easy way out, it's about balancing my reaction against my responsibilities in the best way I know.
If you take the time to consider the context of each member in a group of discrete individuals versus when and how they may react, don't be surprised if more reacted than is readily apparent.
I know I'm coming into this discussion late and I'll admit I haven't read ALL 200+ previous posts (plus I bet a few were posted in the time it took me to write this), so forgive me if I repeat anyone else. But I wanted to throw out there that some SPAs do speak up...in multiple ways. (And I really don't mean this as just Self-aggrandizing, just safest to use myself as an example.) I read a lot of other SPA. I write a lot of reviews, some of them quite harsh, on other SPA books. (I also rave about those I think deserve it.) I expect that if another SPA feels the same about my book, they'll do the same. Such honestly only helps everyone involved. But I also speak up when I see then need. Example But because I choose to speak up instead of just silently shake my head, I've been forced to consider my own actions and any reactions that might come from them. For example, will I be accused of being one of those authors who trashes other authors just to make myself look better if I post a negative review?
I chose the above example because it highlights a few things.
1. My first point in it is that I generally fear becoming a target if I become involved with those who have proved themselves less than courteous to start with. I know I can't be the only one who fears such.
2. BUT I think I managed in it to make my point without being offensive or aggressive and so even months later I haven't felt a backlash from it. Perhaps the fear of becoming a troll-target (or being put on the site-that-shan't-be-named-hitlist) are a little exaggerated. Not nonexistent, but perhaps not as prevalent as feared.
3. The possible bullies involved were other readers not the author. How exactly does one deal with this? I'm not claiming authors don't have very public and damaging meltdowns, of course they do. But they aren't the only offenders in this match.
4. Quality is subjective. I disliked the book in question, but others obviously enjoyed it. Before daring to publish, I always assumed that the low quality, poorly edited SPAs out there were shysters offloading crap for a quick buck. Then I put a book out which had multiple beta readers, innumerable personal edits, and a professional editor only to then be told there is a fairly obvious typo in it! My point is I think a lot of authors accused of promoting poor quality aren't aware that that is what it is or is considered to be.
So, there are Indie/SPAs who do defend readers. But it's not just a reavers vs. writers issue. There are multiple offenders and defenders, far too many to simplify the issue into who should and shouldn't be policing whomever. Plus, there are more than a few ways for a vocal author to be damaged by trying to be a hero. Even willing to speak my piece on the quality of a book and point out bullying behaviours, as I am, there are times when it's fairly obvious NO ONE will benefit from further feeding the ire of an attacker by trying to contradict them. It just provides more fodder.
Being put on the site really isn't that big of a deal. My name's been on there for the better part of a year, and all that happened was that I made some new friends, branded myself as someone who doesn't support their wretched cause, and occasionally one of the BBAs writes some sad, pathetic lies about me and I have a good laugh.
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Nenia wrote: "Being put on the site really isn't that big of a deal. My name's been on there for the better part of a year, and all that happened was that I made some new friends, branded myself as someone who d..."/slightly off-topic/
I'm going to start calling that site Voldemort!Online, or something like that. Since It Shall Not Be Named.
OMG. I love that. Voldemort!Online.I usually just call them the Strange Grubs, but I think yours is better. <3
Nenia wrote: "OMG. I love that. Voldemort!Online.I usually just call them the Strange Grubs, but I think yours is better. <3"
I assume "Strange Grubs" stands for the website's initials? (Probably a stupid question, but I'm going to invoke the "It's Past 11 PM Here And I'm Tired" clause.)
Names have power. I rather like "Strange Grubs."
Judy wrote: "My advice to readers: Look for professionalism. That's all.Sadie wrote: "Even willing to speak my piece on the quality of a book and point out bullying behaviours, as I am, there are times when it's fairly obvious NO ONE will benefit from further feeding the ire of an attacker by trying to contradict them. It just provides more fodder.
Just in case no else says it, or even if otherse do, thank you for stating facts and beautiful truths.
@Yzabel: Yup, and also from their slimy attitudes. :)@D.C.: Why thank you, darling! :D
Sadie wrote: "... Even willing to speak my piece on the quality of a book and point out bullying behaviours..."*sigh*
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ThreeRs (Got Logic?) wrote: "Wow. As Tina and Mahala have noted, Paul is providing an excellent example of the sort of author I was talking about. I'm happy to see that it doesn't look like he's attacked the people who revie..."
That's nice and all, but I don't care who or what you read or what volume its done in. I don't care what your opinions are about the market or how a vocal few feel about SPAs because of some stupid blog.
You seem to think that we're whores that should be bending over at every minute of the day to please you so that maybe one day you might buy our books. Let me inform you, I'm not your dancing monkey waiting for you to throw me a fucking banana.
I write stories that entertain me for people who wish to be entertained. I'm not here to sell to people who have obvious vendettas and want me to jerk them off for their amusement.
I think I have done more than enough to prove that you and a select few will never be satisfied with anything SPAs do. People flagged my comment; not good enough. They called me out; not enough said anything or they didn't say something fast enough.
You're so transparent.
That's nice and all, but I don't care who or what you read or what volume its done in. I don't care what your opinions are about the market or how a vocal few feel about SPAs because of some stupid blog.
You seem to think that we're whores that should be bending over at every minute of the day to please you so that maybe one day you might buy our books. Let me inform you, I'm not your dancing monkey waiting for you to throw me a fucking banana.
I write stories that entertain me for people who wish to be entertained. I'm not here to sell to people who have obvious vendettas and want me to jerk them off for their amusement.
I think I have done more than enough to prove that you and a select few will never be satisfied with anything SPAs do. People flagged my comment; not good enough. They called me out; not enough said anything or they didn't say something fast enough.
You're so transparent.
No, Paul. You seem to think that you're entitled to a receptive audience simply for deigning to share your greatness with the world. But the world doesn't work like that. And if you write your stories solely to entertain yourself, then why sell them? Why not just keep them on your laptop? Then you'll never have anyone criticize them ever again since you seem to hold yourself in such high esteem.
D.A. - Please don't mock bully victims. wrote: "The day I try to sell my reviews as writing is the day I expect I'll have to be thick skinned and accept author comments; although never even then if attacking me by name calling, mocking bully victims, starting up petitions because my one review ... Blech! If it's against TOS (attacking another member is) it shouldn't be allowed."Absolutely right! It shouldn't be allowed and that goes for both readers and authors. It also includes reviewers and SPAs.
However there is one thing that needs making PERFECTLY clear. Bloggers reviewing books ARE in fact selling their wares on the internet. Usually they are amazon affiliates and therefore any click on one of the books they review - be it dreadful or brilliant - is LOGGED by the amazon tracking bots.
What that means to those of you who are JUST readers or authors is that for 30 days following that click to see if X's book really IS that awful they get commission on any amazon sale from the clicker. It could be a TV, it could be a Valentine's ring, it could be a bar of chocolate or a pack of Depends! It does not have to be a book.
Bloggers generally do not feature books for the good of authors. They earn money via amazon commissions and adsense revenue. They are often internet marketers first and readers second... Don't believe me? Find a blog and click on a book link, somewhere you will see in the URL something like "joebloggs-20" or "violetknickers-21" that is their affiliate code for tracking. If reviewers are doing that then their writing is published for sale!
D.A. - Please don't mock bully victims. wrote: "I would like to have seen a fraction of the authors posting on how readers aren't giving indie/spa books a chance posting on this thread.That said, no, I still don't think authors have a responsi..."
I'm getting a little tired of the repetition of, you should have spoken up. I did. Repeatedly. It was vastly ignored. I'm still being ignored. Do I care? No. Here's another simple truth. I am not your bitch.
If I choose to not participate in what I perceive as nothing more than attempts to get a rise by arguing for the sake of arguing from ALL members involved, then that's my choice.
The only laws that govern the internet are the UN's Declaration of Human Rights and International Laws, the latter of which mostly deal with far bigger issues such as war criminals. There hasn't been a word of Hate Speech on this thread. Various comments that are quite disagreeable, yes, and in some cases, downright offensive. But Hate Speech? Never happened. We don't all live in your backyard.
What happened here? Pointless arguments, nothing more. Not even digesting different points of views, factual information, and considering different sides. Nope, just random arguing for the sake of arguing. My way or the highway...
I would like to share a blog post I wrote two years ago. It contains a lot of what I've been saying all along, and I'm sure I'll feel the same for the rest of my life.
How to be a Professional:
http://lilyauthor.blogspot.ca/2012/07...
Lily, you and I can go off and enjoy a glass of wine. :-)
Nenia wrote: "No, Paul. You seem to think that you're entitled to a receptive audience simply for deigning to share your greatness with the world. But the world doesn't work like that. And if you write your stor..."
I'm not entitled to anything. Never said I was. No one is entitled anything in this world. That includes a group of readers who think my sole mission in life as a SPA is to mod message boards for authors who swear and kiss their feet in a discussion even when they are wrong.
I'm not entitled to anything. Never said I was. No one is entitled anything in this world. That includes a group of readers who think my sole mission in life as a SPA is to mod message boards for authors who swear and kiss their feet in a discussion even when they are wrong.
You could argue that the "C" word is hate speech. It's derogatory, and it refers to a particular variety of humans. Like the f....t word, just because it's sometimes used to refer to people who don't fall into that category doesn't disqualify it.
D.C. wrote: "You could argue that the "C" word is hate speech. It's derogatory, and it refers to a particular variety of humans. Like the f....t word, just because it's sometimes used to refer to people who d..."
Cunt is not hate speech.
If you think cunt is hate speech then so is asshole, dick, and twat.
Cunt is not hate speech.
If you think cunt is hate speech then so is asshole, dick, and twat.
Judy wrote: "Lily, you and I can go off and enjoy a glass of wine. :-)"I'm totally taking you up on that! I could use a glass, or a whole bottle...
I hope you like red :)
Amanda wrote: "I'm getting frustrated by this conversation because I seem to be able to comprehend what the OP was about, yet so many of you are not. Too many of the people commenting are taking everything so per..."
I'm convinced this is a troll account.
I'm convinced this is a troll account.
Max wrote: "Bloggers reviewing books ARE in fact selling their wares on the internet. Usually they are amazon affiliates and therefore any click on one of the books they review - be it dreadful or brilliant - is LOGGED by the amazon tracking bots. ..."This actually isn't true. Most book bloggers make no money from their blogs (like most self-published authors, actually), and many of us are, in fact, not amazon affiliates. If you click on the cover pic on my blog, you'll get a bigger cover pic.
Although, honestly, I don't personally give a crap if an author gives me a hard time about one of my reviews. But I think it is a really stupid thing for an author to do.
A statement that it's not any more hate speech than other scatological references is disingenuous. Many, if not most, women find it as loaded as the n....r word and the f....t word are to the members of those groups.
Sadie wrote: "I know I'm coming into this discussion late and I'll admit I haven't read ALL 200+ previous posts (plus I bet a few were posted in the time it took me to write this), so forgive me if I repeat anyo..."I agree with Sadie.
D.C. wrote: "A statement that it's not any more hate speech than other scatological references is disingenuous. Many, if not most, women find it as loaded as the n....r word and the f....t word are to the memb..."
You're joking right? In what universe is calling a woman a cunt on par with calling a black person a nigger?
You're joking right? In what universe is calling a woman a cunt on par with calling a black person a nigger?
The problem with choosing not to engage, I think, is that it can come across as apathetic. You can argue, of course, that successful authors don't have time to defend their reviewers. And yet a lot of the authors I see here on Goodreads have time to write long blog posts about upcoming promotions or details about their books."I am an author and like the majority of authors I do not read reviews, so I am unaware of any drama taking place unless someone posts here or on Twitter complaining about it. It is true that many self-published authors are obsessed with not only reading reviews, but buying honest ones (which sounds like a contradiction in terms to me). Like theatre actors, most authors don't read reviews. Why would we? Reviews (professional, shopper, or fan) are intended for readers (or theatre-goers), not writers (or actors).
On the C word, it is probably the word I hate most in the English language and when used by a man against a woman would (in English law) constitute hate speech, especially when Paul boasted that he used it against just one woman. On the other hand, I also hate being told what to do by people who seem intent on inflaming (pun intended) the situation, so I ignored the demands to pile in on Paul.
The one I, and probably a number of other women on this thread, inhabit. I personally find it more offensive that "d..e", which very few people would argue is not hate speech.
Amanda wrote: "Paul wrote: "Amanda wrote: "I'm getting frustrated by this conversation because I seem to be able to comprehend what the OP was about, yet so many of you are not. Too many of the people commenting..."Yeah, I was wondering the same...
I skip read it. It's a dumb debate; every circumstance is different, everyone's threshold for what is immoral or amoral -- and thus requiring intervention -- is different.
Paul didn't start the insults, Tina did by suggesting he was an idiot who missed the point. But yes, the 'c' word is pretty unacceptable on this side of the pond, and calling someone a douchebag back doesn't exactly heighten the debate.
I think the behavior in this thread typifies why SPA get so much heat. Even when they think they're doing the upstanding thing, they act like stormtroopers, and when they know they're doing the wrong thing, they have the linguistic depth of a monkey throwing feces.
And yes, I'm an SPA.
Here's my suggestion: instead of turning an un-winnable argument over moral relativism into a sideshow, everyone go back to writing books for a few hours. It's the only answer guaranteed to help at least someone.
Amanda wrote: "I'm suspecting that you are from STGRB and are only here so that your friends can take SS of how "heroic" you've been."
You seem to have a lot of ill-will against them. Did they have your old account listed?
Personally, I have no use for that site. Too dramatic and way too biased for me.
You seem to have a lot of ill-will against them. Did they have your old account listed?
Personally, I have no use for that site. Too dramatic and way too biased for me.
D.C. wrote: "The one I, and probably a number of other women on this thread, inhabit. I personally find it more offensive that "d..e", which very few people would argue is not hate speech."
I think it is. It's a derogatory term against homosexual women.
I think it is. It's a derogatory term against homosexual women.
L.H. wrote: "Here's my suggestion: instead of turning an un-winnable argument over moral relativism into a sideshow, everyone go back to writing books for a few hours. It's the only answer guaranteed to help at least someone."How is that going to help anyone? This is a pressing issue. Brushing it under the carpet solves nothing.
Nenia wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Paul wrote: "Amanda wrote: "I'm getting frustrated by this conversation because I seem to be able to comprehend what the OP was about, yet so many of you are not. Too many of the p..."
Is that your ghost account?
Is that your ghost account?
So, tell me members, should I now report DC for making a blatantly false and ethnocentric statement?Curse, swear, or cuss words are part of freedom of speech. Would I go around calling any woman a cunt for no apparent reason? Of course not. That would just be silly. However, hijacking this topic in order to prove something exists, such as arrogantly assuming the American law of hate speech magically appears in the Declaration of Human Rights, is even sillier. After all, so many amazing books, movies, tv shows, would be banned if any of nonsense were factual. Is Toni Morrison or Tennessee William now guilty of hate speech? You're sliding along an awfully slippery slope with that argument.
Perhaps, the one lesson that we can all learn from this thread, is that people will state their opinion regardless if anyone agrees, or even if the whole world disagrees, and maybe, just maybe, there's nothing to defend.
I don't employ sock-puppets. If you think that's the only reason nobody here agrees with you then you are clearly in over your head in de Nile.
Nenia wrote: "How is that going to help anyone? This is a pressing issue. Brushing it under the carpet solves nothing...."
Did you read my post? There's nothing to "brush under the carpet". It's a moral relativism argument, and won't be solvable because people have different standards with respect to interference.
How does writing help anyone? If you need an answer to that (including the author themselves in the debate) you're probably on the wrong site.
And a "pressing issue" is one that by definition requires immediate attention. This doesn't even come close.
Now, I'm going back to writing ... which I find helpful, because it enables me to finish books.
Paul wrote: "You're joking right? In what universe is calling a woman a cunt on par with calling a black person a nigger?"Do you honestly want an answer or are you just being rhetorical?
Both are objectifying. Both reduce a minority to something less than human. Both are offensive and insulting.
Nenia wrote: "Do you honestly want an answer or are you just being rhetorical?
Both are objectifying. Both reduce a minority to something less than human. Both are offensive and insulting."
You're reaching on this one. But you already know that.
Both are objectifying. Both reduce a minority to something less than human. Both are offensive and insulting."
You're reaching on this one. But you already know that.
L.H. wrote: "Nenia wrote: "How is that going to help anyone? This is a pressing issue. Brushing it under the carpet solves nothing...."
Did you read my post? There's nothing to "brush under the carpet". It's a..."
1. I am an author and I don't see how writing benefits anyone other than myself. The people who read my books do so for entertainment purposes and I certainly wouldn't be so arrogant as to assume that they find my books helpful. If they do, that's great. But it's not why I write- my motivations for writing are purely selfish and I won't pretend otherwise.
2. Moral relativism is a fun little philosophy term. But most people are capable of reaching some consensus in the real world and in this world, authors slamming and stalking their reviewers is becoming a rather pervasive issue. Even authors backed by large publishing houses are doing it (just look at Anne Rice's latest FB posts).
3. I like how you immediately assume I didn't read your post just because I don't agree with you. My argument is that the "shut up and write"-type statements ARE brushing poor SPA behavior under the carpet by denying that they exist/are a problem.
Paul wrote: "Nenia wrote: "Do you honestly want an answer or are you just being rhetorical?Both are objectifying. Both reduce a minority to something less than human. Both are offensive and insulting."
You'r..."
How is that reaching? Do you seriously not understand how reducing a woman to a SEXUAL ORGAN can be seen as offensive? Seriously? SERIOUSLY?
Amanda wrote: " I don't know what these people (the readers) could have done to this group to make them so angry that they decided it would be a good idea to start a hate blog and stalk others around the internet."I suspect that the answer is that they failed to provide endless praise and cash, served up by the barrel full.
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Richard wrote: "Lily wrote: "I'm still being ignored."Actually, back stage here at Rodent Central, you've been on our radar and you made the list. LOL."
Hahahaha... I'm honored :)
Lily wrote: "So, tell me members, should I now report DC for making a blatantly false and ethnocentric statement?Curse, swear, or cuss words are part of freedom of speech. Would I go around calling any woman ..."
Where did anyone. including myself, say that hate speech, as defined by American law (and I think that particular word is marginal under U.S. Law, and I'm pretty sure hate speech is usually only prosecutable in the context of commission of another crime) qualified anything for the Declaration of Human Rights? In this particular case, one man called one woman, and I'm assuming he knew she was female, a vile derogatory name that is generally used to refer to women. He was not randomly typing naughty words, or using them in fiction, or anything else that's reasonably defensible. I'm quite sure he didn't break the law, but that is not an excuse.
I don't know how you feel about that particular word, but I find it incredibly offensive. More so than a particular term used to refer to another group I belong to. I don't know how that's ethnocentric.
Nenia wrote: "L.H. wrote: "Nenia wrote: "How is that going to help anyone? This is a pressing issue. Brushing it under the carpet solves nothing...."
Did you read my post? There's nothing to "brush under the ca..."
I assumed you didn't read it because your argument was non-existent, not because you didnt' agree with me. Saying "this is important!" doesn't actually make something important.
If you think you'll reach consensus on when people should or shouldn't interact with readers and vice-versa, more power to you. I suggest the tumbleweeds will be blowing by any time now.
I didnt' tell anyone to shut up. Stop setting up strawmen, as you did when you answered Paul with "nobody agrees with you." You also started a sentence with "I like how you immediately assume..." then went on to tell me why, even though your posting so far does nothing to convince me that you're a mind reader, or cognitively gifted on any level, for that matter.
And by the way, "cunt" is not sexist; in most of the world it's less offensive than many terms thrown around over here and I've called drinking buddies it. In Australia and Britain, it's pretty interchangeable for "bitch" or "prick."
Goodreads Authors/Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
Simple Jess (other topics)Infinite Jest (other topics)
A Prayer for Owen Meany (other topics)
The Star Of Jolanest: Tales From Tamara (other topics)
Pogo (other topics)
It really doesn't take much time to write a blog post about bad author behavior and how it can be prevented. I'm very busy too, but I still try to make time to check out my one-star reviews to make sure they're not being bullied and to post blogs about hot issues in the SPA sector and my thoughts about them, inviting my readers and followers to join the debate and talk about their opinions and give them a chance to vent.
You don't have to do a LOT to make a difference. Every small bit helps the cause. From what I've seen, the "it's too hard/I'm too busy" excuse is just a means for one to distance oneself from the problem without having to lift a finger.