When SciFi and Fantasy Get Old

[Veronica]

I usually have two books going at the same time (one audiobook and one traditional book), a mystery (historical or contemporary, doesn't matter) and sci fi/fantasy.

[Monica]

Like almost everyone else, I don't really get tired of Sci Fi but I do make a conscious effort to rotate the types of books that I read between Fiction, Science Fiction and Nonfiction. I try for equal parts but in every year that I have actually measured, Sci Fi makes up the bulk of my reading.

[Kateb]

i read a few books a week and have yet to find a lot of time for a non fiction book. Although I suppose I have to include all my science and computer journals. BUt varying between the different types of sc fi and fantasy gives a wide choice

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Juniper Green wrote: "When it's not science fiction or fantasy, I mostly read thrillers, mysteries, police procedurals, lit-fic or classics."

Oh, is that all? haha! I think Juniper is saying "heck off with your textbooks!" :-)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Juniper Green wrote: "Allison wrote: "I think Juniper is saying "heck off with your textbooks!" :-) ."

Huh? Not at all.
And most mysteries or thrillers I read end up having a fantastic or scientific element or two... s..."

Sorry, I was just teasing that you have a wide breadth of interests which is impressive, and it looked like you were saying you will read almost anything more interesting than Earth Science 101. It was meant as a compliment/joke, sorry if it didn't read that way.

[Stephanie]

I equally split between scifi and crime/thriller/mystery. Fantasy isn't a big genre for me.

[A.J.]

Fantasy tends to have a new dominant sub-genre (epic, urban, dark, metaphysical, grimdark fantasy, etc) every ten or so years. Each sub-genre gets quite formulaic after a while. It's at that sort of point that I'll turn to something completely different, often a classic I haven't read but really should have (e.g. Beowulf) or some modern literary fiction (Booker Prize winner, etc). After struggling with one of those, I begin to miss fantasy again... and when I return to the genre, I usually find a new sub-genre has begun to emerge and we're good to go! Hurrah!

[Bruce]

A.J. wrote: "Fantasy tends to have a new dominant sub-genre (epic, urban, dark, metaphysical, grimdark fantasy, etc) every ten or so years. Each sub-genre gets quite formulaic after a while. It's at that sort o..."

Interesting that sci-fi, although today's sci-fi is distinctly different than twenty years ago, isn't subject to the sub-genre fashions as fantasy.

[Aaron]

Bruce wrote: "A.J. wrote: "Fantasy tends to have a new dominant sub-genre (epic, urban, dark, metaphysical, grimdark fantasy, etc) every ten or so years. Each sub-genre gets quite formulaic after a while. It's a..."

Ehh I actually disagree that fantasy has a sub-genre that's in fashion.

Urban, Hard, Grim-dark, Epic are all very much in the cool right now. Now there are new sub-genres that get popular and after a fashion start to become more and more settled, but that happens in sci-fi too.

[A.J.]

Aaron wrote: "Bruce wrote: "A.J. wrote: "Fantasy tends to have a new dominant sub-genre (epic, urban, dark, metaphysical, grimdark fantasy, etc) every ten or so years. Each sub-genre gets quite formulaic after a..."

Actually, I've just completed a PhD on this topic. 'Epic fantasy' was dominant in the 1980s and 90s... and became hugely formulaic. Dark fantasy dominated the late 2000s. Grimdark became the dominant sub-genre of fantasy in the 2010s. Strangely, now, grimdark's sales are tailing off (according to Gollancz) and epic fantasy is making something of a return. A lot of it is connected to what's going on in the sociohistorical moment, blah, blah. Epic fantasy is quite conservative, and many countries of the world have moved right with their politics.

[David]

A.J. wrote: "Actually, I've just completed a PhD on this topic..."

I was thinking about contributing to this discussion, but now I'm intimidated ;)

Is your dissertation publicly available?

[Kateb]

Juniper Green wrote: "When it's not science fiction or fantasy, I mostly read thrillers, mysteries, police procedurals, lit-fic or classics."
other than the lit fic I agree with your selection. I find I like such a wide selection of SF and fantasy that I can always find something I will read. Then again I read YA,UF , hard SC FI , all sorts of genres.

[Mary]

Epic fantasy was dominant than because the massive increase in the fantasy genre was heavily driven by people who wanted to read more J.R.R. Tolkien even in heavily diluted form. I don't think any other subgenre has gotten quite the same effect.

[A.J.]

David wrote: "A.J. wrote: "Actually, I've just completed a PhD on this topic..."

I was thinking about contributing to this discussion, but now I'm intimidated ;)

Is your dissertation publicly available?"

Hi David
Don't be intimidated! I'm just a fantasy fan that got to rattle on about his passion. Between them, the people in this group have got the knowledge for a gazillion PhDs. I actually did a PhD 'by publication' - submitting my Gollancz novel Empire of the Saviours and a 10K-word dissertation on fantasy sub-genres. The dissertation is in the process of being published by Luna Press Publishing. It'll be called 'The Sub-genres of British Fantasy Literature' and will be available from April 2017. We'll probably launch it at EasterCon in Birmingham (along with lots of free wine). Happy days.

[A.J.]

Mary wrote: "Epic fantasy was dominant than because the massive increase in the fantasy genre was heavily driven by people who wanted to read more J.R.R. Tolkien even in heavily diluted form. I don't think any ..."

Absolutely, Mary. Epic fantasy inherited its tropes (Chosen One quest, noble kings and queens, fight against evil) pretty much directly from Tolkien's high fantasy. Of course, epic fantasy did then add some new elements (banter amongst the characters, whereas high fantasy takes itself far too seriously, morally ambivalent characters, whereas high fantasy is very black and white, well developed political and economic systems, whereas high fantay is more symbolically religious, etc). Epic fantasy was important in its own right, I'd say.

[Trike]

Mary wrote: "Epic fantasy was dominant than because the massive increase in the fantasy genre was heavily driven by people who wanted to read more J.R.R. Tolkien even in heavily diluted form. I don't think any other subgenre has gotten quite the same effect."

Recently I would say two specific flavors of YA subgenres have experienced that: "magic school" due to Harry Potter and "dystopian action girl" due to Hunger Games. (There were certainly antecedents to both of those series, but those were the ones which kicked the demand into high gear.)

[Trike]

A.J. wrote: "Absolutely, Mary. Epic fantasy inherited its tropes (Chosen One quest, noble kings and queens, fight against evil) pretty much directly from Tolkien's high fantasy. Of course, epic fantasy did then add some new elements (banter amongst the characters, whereas high fantasy takes itself far too seriously, morally ambivalent characters, whereas high fantasy is very black and white, well developed political and economic systems, whereas high fantay is more symbolically religious, etc). Epic fantasy was important in its own right, I'd say. "

I had to drop out of school in the 80s because the Reagan-Thatcher years were a financial nightmare but my PhD thesis was also on genres and I have to say I'm not following you here.

Part of that is because the term "epic fantasy" existed long before the phrase "high fantasy" did. The latter came about in the 1970s but it didn't stick. That was because 1) "epic fantasy" works just fine and 2) it made people snicker. It reminds me of Mean Girls: "Stop trying to make 'fetch' happen."

I don't recall offhand exactly when "Epic Fantasy" was coined, but it was pre-Tolkien. Whereas I encountered the discussion of "high fantasy" as it was actively going on. I suspect the earliest use of Epic Fantasy was an outgrowth of the proliferation of similarly sprawling stories which were happening in every genre in the early days of the 20th century: sweeping historical tales, widescreen space operas, extravagant horse operas, etc.

Side note: "epic poem" is redundant, technically speaking. "Epic" means "poem" in the original Greek. It's like when someone says "chai tea." "Chai" means "tea" in Hindi (and various other Asian languages). So sipping chai tea while perusing an epic poem means one is drinking tea tea while reading a poem poem.

[A.J.]

Trike wrote: "A.J. wrote: "Absolutely, Mary. Epic fantasy inherited its tropes (Chosen One quest, noble kings and queens, fight against evil) pretty much directly from Tolkien's high fantasy. Of course, epic fan..."

Well, if Tolkien is considered to be the defining author when it comes to 'high fantasy' (as per the 'Cambridge A-Z of Literature'), then high fantasy predates the 'epic fantasy' term used/coined on the front of Donaldson's 1977 'Lord Foul's Bane'. Obviously, the term 'epic' is as ancient as it gets, but 'epic fantasy' as a popular sub-genre term was described by such authors as Feist and Eddings in the 80s onwards. A matter of semantics, perhaps.

[Mary]

A.J. wrote: "Of course, epic fantasy did then add some new elements (banter amongst the characters, whereas high fantasy takes itself far too seriously, morally ambivalent characters, whereas high fantasy is very black and white, well developed political and economic systems, whereas high fantay is more symbolically religious, etc)."

I have never heard anyone use the terms in a way that would make those distinguishing marks. If they aren't used as synonyms, people use "epic" to mark out the works that are world-shaking in events.

[Bruce]

Aaron wrote: "Urban, Hard, Grim-dark, Epic are all very much in the cool right now. Now there are new sub-genres that get popular and after a fashion start to become more and more settled, but that happens in sci-fi too."

Oops, my bad!

[Trike]

A.J. wrote: "Well, if Tolkien is considered to be the defining author when it comes to 'high fantasy' (as per the 'Cambridge A-Z of Literature'), then high fantasy predates the 'epic fantasy' term used/coined on the front of Donaldson's 1977 'Lord Foul's Bane'. Obviously, the term 'epic' is as ancient as it gets, but 'epic fantasy' as a popular sub-genre term was described by such authors as Feist and Eddings in the 80s onwards. A matter of semantics, perhaps. "

It's all basically semantics. But that's what makes life worth living!

"Conan! What is best in life?"
"Reading books, deciding which genre dey belong in, argue semantics and hear da lamentation of da women!" *

The problem with the phrase High Fantasy is that it's so often used interchangeably with Epic Fantasy. I'm not opposed to parsing genres to finer degrees, so long as those divisions are useful. For instance, I like the distinction between Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance even though there is a lot of overlap in their Venn diagram. The key element of PNR, the pursuit of romantic relationships above all else, helps distinguish it from UF. It sets expectations and helps people find what they're looking for. I haven't seen a useful enough distinction between High Fantasy and Epic Fantasy to adopt it.

* slightly paraphrased

[Hank]

Trike wrote: "So sipping chai tea while perusing an epic poem means one is drinking tea tea while reading a poem poem. "

That is awesome! I work on a street called Table Mesa so I can keep the theme rolling

[Papaphilly]

I think the easiest way to separate High Fantasy from Epic is this: High fantasy can be looked at like literature. It can be held in the same esteem and critical approach. It can be metaphor or at least very layered in its writing.

Epic is the big story with the big themes and battles. Think of an old western with the panorama skyline and colors.

This is not to say Epics cannot be extremely well written or High Fantasy not have great battles or big themes, clearly there is overlap.

[Sarah]

Hank wrote: "Trike wrote: "So sipping chai tea while perusing an epic poem means one is drinking tea tea while reading a poem poem. "

That is awesome! I work on a street called Table Mesa so I can keep the theme rolling..."

:)

[Sarah]

It looks like we're getting slightly off topic here. This post is for what we read when sci-fi and fantasy get old. Please feel free to open a topic on subgenres in fantasy.

[Kateb]

thanks Sarah Anne. I found I was reading the same discussion on two topics areas

I found that I was reading a few novels between the sc fi and fantasy, but just couldn't get involved in the book. Back to my normal lot I felt.

This topic has made me realise that with so many genres in both fields I just move across the range to get variation.

[Trike]

Hank wrote: "Trike wrote: "So sipping chai tea while perusing an epic poem means one is drinking tea tea while reading a poem poem. "

That is awesome! I work on a street called Table Mesa so I can keep the theme rolling"

So I was reading an imaginary Fantasy in a bookstore at the intersection of Table Mesa Street and El Camino Way in a Montana mountain town while sipping chai tea, nibbling on naan bread and one part of the book is an epic poem set in the both Gobi desert and Sahara desert. It was written by the British author Pendleton Breedon-Hill.

I think you know where this is going, but the ending will surprise you....

So I was reading a fantasy Fantasy in a bookstore at the intersection of table table Street and the way Way in a mountain mountain town while sipping tea tea, nibbling on bread bread and one part of the book is a poem poem set in both the Desert desert and Desert desert. It was written by the British author Hill hill hill Hill hill hill-Hill.

Of course, to pay for all this I had to put my PIN number into the ATM machine to get some cash money.

*mic drop*

[Don]

Trike is rolling !!

[Noor]

Lately I've been having a hard time finding the time to read, let alone get tired of genres! But in general when I get tired of them I just go back and re-read Harry Potter or the Hobbit - books I know are masterfully written. Or if I really want a change I switch to Charles Dickens, I have almost all his books on my bookshelf.

I've been known to foray into Young Adult from time to time, but I can only handle the predictability in small doses! :)

[Ramon]

I feel that the title of this thread "When SciFi and Fantasy Get Old" is incorrect and misleading, as it does not talk about when SciFI gets old, but rather about when you've had enough of SciFi and want to change genres.
Good SciFi can never get "old". I still enjoy books that I read 40 or more years ago like The City and the Stars, Stranger in a Strange Land, Foundation, Ringworld or Dune.
That you may want to switch genres after reading a lot of SciFi is however normal - you might be eventually overloaded. This is not my case, as I typically read (and write in) multiple genres.

[David]

That use of "get old" is an English idiom. People often say something "gets old" when they mean they've had too much exposure to it.

I agree that some works of sci-fi are timeless. I can't imagine a time that people won't love Dune.

(Though as with all books, you'll find plenty of disagreement, and I'm sure you could find people who don't like certain "dated" aspects of those books!)

[Ramon]

David wrote: "That use of "get old" is an English idiom. People often say something "gets old" when they mean they've had too much exposure to it."

Hi, David, thanks for the clarification. You will have realized that I am not a native English speaker, so I took it literally. One new thing to know!

[Micah]

I took two diversions recently:

1) I started reading academic non-fiction which still relates to some of my work ... How We Became Posthuman: Virtual Bodies in Cybernetics, Literature, and Informatics by N. Katherine Hayles.

Hayles relates three interwoven stories: how information lost its body, that is, how it came to be conceptualized as an entity separate from the material forms that carry it; the cultural and technological construction of the cyborg; and the dismantling of the liberal humanist "subject" in cybernetic discourse, along with the emergence of the "posthuman."

Slow reading for me, and I'm only about 60% finished, but it's given me a lot to think about.

2) ... I then had to take a break from serious egghead stuff and rejuvenate the brain with something a LOT lighter and more entertaining: Georges Simenon's Maigret's Christmas: Nine Stories to be exact. Inspector Maigret, the French police superintendent extraordinaire. Love those stories.

[Don]

I have yet to get tired of Sci-Fi/Fantasy. But then again I tend to read a lot of non-fiction (especially writing) books as well, so that may be why. My TBR pile might be taller than my house now (thank God for ebooks), but that is not a complaint. I remember when I was a kid I had trouble finding what I really liked, these days my TBR pile is huge. But again, not a complaint, I feel blessed. :)

[Scott]

When I need a break from F/SF I turn to historical fiction of the adventure variety. I'm working my way through Bernard Cornwell's Saxon Tales right now. Great series.

[Veronica]

A.J. wrote: "Actually, I've just completed a PhD on this topic. 'Epic fantasy' was dominant in the 1980s and 90s... and became hugely formulaic. Dark fantasy dominated the late 2000s. Grimdark became the dominant sub-genre of fantasy in the 2010s. Strangely, now, grimdark's sales are tailing off (according to Gollancz) and epic fantasy is making something of a return. A lot of it is connected to what's going on in the sociohistorical moment, blah, blah. Epic fantasy is quite conservative, and many countries of the world have moved right with their politics."

Now this is a dissertation I'd actually be interested in reading. :-)

[Kateb]

Don wrote: "I have yet to get tired of Sci-Fi/Fantasy. But then again I tend to read a lot of non-fiction (especially writing) books as well, so that may be why. My TBR pile might be taller than my house now (..."

fully agree, and then sometimes you are reminded of some great book you read ages ago and have to re read that. I read a few light books a week and a few more intense books a week. So a few crime in the mix means I haven't got tired of sc fi / fantasy yet

[Papaphilly]

Don wrote: "I have yet to get tired of Sci-Fi/Fantasy. But then again I tend to read a lot of non-fiction (especially writing) books as well, so that may be why. My TBR pile might be taller than my house now (..."

I figure if I never buy a book again and I read all of the pile that I now have, I should be about 129 when I finish.

[AndrewP]

Papaphilly wrote: "I figure if I never buy a book again and I read all of the pile that I now have, I should be about 129 when I finish."

Me too:)

[Kateb]

AndrewP wrote: "Papaphilly wrote: "I figure if I never buy a book again and I read all of the pile that I now have, I should be about 129 when I finish."

Me too:)"
me too

[David]

I love me some good Sci-fi, but I do need to switch it up on occasion. I usually go for history novels that seem like they might have some suspense or action or just freshen up my business acumen by listening to the great courses series.

I used to be a die hard horror fan but not so much anymore. Not sure why....

[Alan]

Veronica wrote: "A.J. wrote: "Actually, I've just completed a PhD on this topic [..]
Now this is a dissertation I'd actually be interested in reading. :-) ..."
And several people said 'Me too'. Now add me to that list.
PhD theses nowadays are usually published electronically by the University. Could Dr. A. J. please post the link?

[T. K. Elliott (Tiffany)]

I don't think I've ever got tired of fantasy... but I read detective stories, thrillers, historical fiction, crisp packets, train timetables...

Dr. @A.J., you planning to launch at EasterCon Birmingham? Might see you there!

[A.J.]

Veronica wrote: "A.J. wrote: "Actually, I've just completed a PhD on this topic. 'Epic fantasy' was dominant in the 1980s and 90s... and became hugely formulaic. Dark fantasy dominated the late 2000s. Grimdark beca..."

Hi Veronica
It's being published with Luna Press in a couple of weeks from now - I'll zing you the link when it's available!

[A.J.]

T. K. Elliott (Tiffany) wrote: "I don't think I've ever got tired of fantasy... but I read detective stories, thrillers, historical fiction, crisp packets, train timetables...

Dr. @A.J., you planning to launch at EasterCon Birmi..."

Hey Tiffany
Haven't ruled Innominate (EasterCon) out. 50/50 at the mo. Depends (as ever) on finances. Luna Press are launching 'The Sub-genres of British Fantasy' (my PhD exegesis) there, so I should probably make the effort. U going?

[T. K. Elliott (Tiffany)]

A.J. wrote: "Haven't ruled Innominate (EasterCon) out. 50/50 at the mo. Depends (as ever) on finances. Luna Press are launching 'The Sub-genres of British Fantasy' (my PhD exegesis) there, so I should probably make the effort. U going?"

That's the plan. I've got the hotel booked, and my husband's supposed to have booked the tickets... :-)

[Johnny]

I turn to biographies, mostly musical legends, but I read Stanley Poitier's story the other day. It's fascinating.

[Kateb]

just re reading through my 700 books from the shelf. sighhhh a few will be going because I know the story too well. Such a pity

[Kateb]

nope sci fi and fantasy never get old, I have been reading them for 60 yrs (since I was 8)and still find new ones to read

now retired I read about 5 books a week, so many, will I live long enough to read all the ones on my "to read" list

[Haley]

I like to read thrillers or crime fiction books when I've read (or have written) too much sci-fi and fantasy. I recently read NO WAY BACK by Rick Mofina. It's one of my favorite thrillers. The book was longer than I had expected, but it was a gripping read.