Debate discussion
Religion
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Religion: Would The World Be Better With Or Without It?
Mod
He seems like a very uncaring person. We say free will is good, and yet, his creations have such flaws that free will is a cruelty.
God can see all, haven't I already said that? Trials are a necessary for this life, this test to be a success. He knew that we couldn't be near perfect, He knew that we would sin, that we would defy Him, that we would deny Him and His son. He knew that there would be tortures and deaths and pains and loss and the lack of understanding. He knew that people would reject Him as His God. But this life is a test for that reason, to see if, even through the bad times, we can hold onto our faith and realize that obviously this is supposed to happen and is a trial of your faith. God doesn't control man's actions, we control our own actions. But He doesn't want us to be harmed. He realizes, however, that that is for our own good. If we never went through trials and tribulation do you really think that we would've learned anything ever?His creations had no flaws until man fell. We created our own flaws, not God.
Jayda wrote: "God can see all, haven't I already said that? Trials are a necessary for this life, this test to be a success. He knew that we couldn't be near perfect, He knew that we would sin, that we would def..."
If he can't control man's actions, why do we pray?
If he can't control man's actions, why do we pray?
We pray for inspiration, for comfort, and for knowledge, etcetera. He doesn't control what we do with that inspiration, that knowledge, or that comfort, etcetera. We decide what we do with that.
How can he give us knowledge? We have to get that ourselves.
Why pray, he can't control you. Create your own hope, don't use relgion as a crutch to make you feel better. Go out and do something about it.
First of all, not just knowledge as in science and math, knowledge of His presence, knowledge of His love, that sort of thing. Of course, you guys won't believe me. That's already evident.Why do you think that religion is such a terrible thing, Marley? For some it makes them better people. For some it's the only hope that they have. For some it's all they can believe in. For some it creates relief, it helps them heal, and guides them through a good life rather than one that would probably be spent in jail. What do us that have religion have to lose? What is it that you think is so terrible about religion that you seem to almost hate it, though I'm not saying that you do. There's a part of me that wonders if you think that religion/God failed you? Again, I'm not assuming. But if someone gains hope through God rather than facts (which I don't see how hope can be gained through a science that changes) is that such a terrible thing? I would think not.
Jayda wrote: "and guides them through a good life rather than one that would probably be spent in jail."
Are you saying that people who believe in God won't end up in jail?
"What do us that have religion have to lose?"
The ability to think logically.
Are you saying that people who believe in God won't end up in jail?
"What do us that have religion have to lose?"
The ability to think logically.
Did I say that? No, I didn't... There are cases where people who believe in God find a reason to not commit crime. I'm not saying that religious people don't commit crime. It happens all the time. I'm saying as I said above: there are some cases where they find a reason to keep from committing crime. Not every case is like that, which I never said it was.And that's only in your opinion. In fact, I believe that I think quite logically.
*claps* See, Jayda, you are learning skills needed to convert people, sadly I must thwart your efforts.Sure It gives YOU hope, but it tears others dreams apart, it stops people from doing things, that are fine and moral, because something that we have no proof of 'said so'.
Jayda wrote: "Did I say that? No, I didn't... There are cases where people who believe in God find a reason to not commit crime. I'm not saying that religious people don't commit crime. It happens all the time. ..."
The same way people who don't believe in God choose not to commit crimes. With help from every other support system out there.
The same way people who don't believe in God choose not to commit crimes. With help from every other support system out there.
Mod
For some it murders, abuses and hurts.
"There's a part of me that wonders if you think that religion/God failed you? "
It's failed the test of logic.
"Are you saying that people who believe in God won't end up in jail?"
COmpared to the 15% non-theist general population, only 1% of the population in jail is nontheist.
Lauren wrote: "COmpared to the 15% non-theist general population, only 1% of the population in jail is nontheist. "
Ahahaha. Pwnd.
Ahahaha. Pwnd.
Well people in prison tend to need something to have faith in. but did you read about the woman who thought she was the anti-christ and shot her son in the head at a shooting range???
For some reason I think I heard about that...(Hey look, it's the link to chapter 3 of my story http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/4... , hi, link to my story, bye link, toodles!)
Mod
Just because some criminals are theist doesn't mean that it's because of religion. You're bunching them all into one group because they believe in Christ (or another religion) and saying that because of religion they're in jail. That is pretty ridiculous."Sure It gives YOU hope, but it tears others dreams apart, it stops people from doing things, that are fine and moral, because something that we have no proof of 'said so'."
Hmm... What kind of morals are you talking about? Because I promise you that morals nowadays are not nearly as decent and promising as morals were in the 20's or 30's.
"The same way people who don't believe in God choose not to commit crimes. With help from every other support system out there."
And I understand that. I mean that there are people who would commit crime who decide not to because they believe in God. Am I making sense?
"For some it murders, abuses and hurts."
But those some are most likely dealing with psychotic people or extremists, wouldn't you agree?
"It's failed the test of logic."
But it hasn't been proven wrong, and religious people can most certainly think logically.
"COmpared to the 15% non-theist general population, only 1% of the population in jail is nontheist."
I never said that everyone in jail is a non-theist. I said that people who have religion sometimes have an idea of why not to commit a crime, because they believe in God and decide to not disappoint Him.
Mod
Of course not. But, it's the rebuttal for the argument that theists are more moral then nontheists.
"it stops people from doing things, that are fine and moral, because something that we have no proof of 'said so'."
Hmm... What kind of morals are you talking about? Because I promise you that morals nowadays are not nearly as decent and promising as morals were in the 20's or 30's. "
The morals in the 20s and 30s were not that great.
"But those some are most likely dealing with psychotic people or extremists, wouldn't you agree? "
Actually, there is a study of depression, and people that are more involved with their religion have a higher rate of depression.
"But it hasn't been proven wrong, and religious people can most certainly think logically. "
But they suspend all their logic to conform to their beliefs.
*back to original topic*hmmm
my brother and i were discussing this
he said that someone should make about a world without religion, what would be different?
he thinks that people would go crazy and kill
i think that people who value life more because there is no after life, so life is even more precious.
i guess it depends on the person
but really, humanity has found a way to survive in terms of religion. they can find a way (most likely hugely different) without religion. they'd still hold moral values, that's for sure.
ugh this is such an interesting topic!! i really wish someone WOULD write a book about this!
WITH religion people go crazy and kill. i see no legitimacy in your brother's first comment.
It is true that organized religion has caused more harm than good. Seeing as it has caused zero good. Lol
What about the charity events many people of religions do?
Mod
I was thinking more along the Mormon Young Men's Group who mowed our lawn...and refused payment. ><
Well sure the church does do a lot. For instance my strongly religious friend was provided a 1.5 million house when she was dirt poor. But we could get other people to do that, groups with out religion would do that. We would most likely have other organized groups. I mean I go to a church group because I enjoy the presence of other people, and I know a lot of other people do the same, so without religion there would still be groups. And the support also makes people lazy, my friend's mom is working a lot less and I know of this other family who had a house and money provided from the church and they refuse to get out of their houses and go on job interviews. And look back at all the bad done, compare the two.
Mod
Emma the Dork wrote: "WITH religion people go crazy and kill. i see no legitimacy in your brother's first comment."true and i told him that
but it's also true that religion is a conscious for many people. religion = their moral barometer and for some, when taking it away, their conscious may not reform....
Jesi wrote: "Emma the Dork wrote: "WITH religion people go crazy and kill. i see no legitimacy in your brother's first comment."
true and i told him that
but it's also true that religion is a conscious for man..."
Well then they aren't good people to begin with. It really isn't THAT hard to restrain from killing someone.
true and i told him that
but it's also true that religion is a conscious for man..."
Well then they aren't good people to begin with. It really isn't THAT hard to restrain from killing someone.
i agree! but there are other sins even things like drinking that people DO need, or at least feel they need, help with getting through (the help of God).I personally believe in a human's own will power and i wonder if without religion people would be more inclined to believe that, as well
Wine back in the Bible was basically grape juice, not an alcoholic beverage.
Mod
You're pathetic if you aren't strong enough to get through something without the help of an imaginary friend.
IT. IS. POSSIBLE. People just like to use the argument that God helps them through things because it's true, it makes it easier for some people, but that doesn't meant they wouldn't be able to do it WITHOUT God.
IT. IS. POSSIBLE. People just like to use the argument that God helps them through things because it's true, it makes it easier for some people, but that doesn't meant they wouldn't be able to do it WITHOUT God.
Maybe...People need to know that there is going to be punishment for all the evil people out there. It is comforting to know that God will handle it.
Mod
It's saying thinking something makes it true. It's also comforting to think you'll get medicine, but it makes no difference, because if you don't, you're still sick.
that is true.(I wasn't saying I believed that I just know a bunch of people that do)
Lauren wrote: "Then why ban it, if it has no harmful effects? "I just said that it wasn't an alcoholic beverage back then xD It was like drinking Welch's Grape Juice compared to wine nowadays.
Mod
Some take the words for wine to mean ‘grape juice.’ If this were so, then why would there be prohibitions against drunkenness? One cannot get drunk on grape juice. Further, Jesus’ first miracle was changing the water into wine at the wedding of Cana in Galilee. He made between 120 and 180 gallons of wine! Even if this had been grape juice, it would soon turn to wine because the fermentation process would immediately begin. But it most certainly was not grape juice: the head waiter in John 2:10 said, “Every man sets out the good wine first, then after the guests have drunk freely, the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” The verb translated ‘drunk freely’ is almost always used of getting drunk (and is so translated in the NRSV here). In the least, the people at this wedding feast, if not drunk, would certainly be drinking alcohol fairly freely (if not, this verb means something here that is nowhere else attested4). And this makes perfect sense in the context: The reason why a man brings out the poorer wine later is because the good wine has numbed the senses a bit. Grape juice would hardly mask anything. Note also Acts 2:13—”they are full of sweet wine”—an inaccurate comment made about the apostles when they began speaking in tongues, as though this explained their unusual behavior. The point is: If they were full of grape juice would this comment even have made any sense at all? That would be like saying, “Well, they’re all acting strange and silly because they have had too much orange juice this morning!”
There are other references to alcoholic beverages in the Bible: Several times in the first books of the Bible, wine and strong drink are prohibited to those who take a Nazarite vow (cf. Num 6, Judges 13). Even grape juice and fresh and dried grapes (i.e., raisins, as the NIV renders the word) are prohibited to the Nazarite (Numbers 6:3)!5 But that restriction is only for those who make this vow. If someone today wants to claim that believers do not have the right to drink alcohol on the analogy of a Nazarite vow (as some today are fond of doing), they also should say that believers ought not to eat Raisin Bran!
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id...
Ultimately they didn't have alcoholic WINE back in Jesus' day. Of course, there was alcohol back in the day. Why would people have been getting drunk? But WINE was not an alcoholic beverage unless it was added into it, which is probably what some of those verses were talking about.
wait... alcohol isn't added into winegrape juice sits and ferments into wine (with yeast).
well maybe u knew that im just reading ur statement incorrectly then.
Whoopsie! Forgive my post above.I was aware but obviously had forgotten how wine was created. Sorry xD
Jayda wrote: "Whoopsie! Forgive my post above.I was aware but obviously had forgotten how wine was created. Sorry xD"
lol!! it happens :P
uhm... sorry for spamming but i HAD to say
You guys take things that I say far too skeptically :)
Hitler had free will. Hitler is the reason that those Jews suffered. God didn't help the Jews because if He did He would've ceased to be God. God didn't create the trials. Man created the trials. It's like saying that the Middle-Eastern men didn't fly the planes into the World Trade Center. That's ridiculous. They did that and it was a trial for all of us. And God would love it if we all lived peacefully and without sin and trial. But that's obviously not going to happen - no man except Jesus has or can be perfect and nothing in this world is perfect. Without perfection peace cannot honestly and fully exist.