Debate discussion
Religion
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Religion: Would The World Be Better With Or Without It?
then why do some say that everything good in this world that man created was an idea that god put in man's head?and you said that you have the choice to believe in it or not. what if you weren't exposed to anything else? when your seven, you don't really think of other religions, especially if you live in a community of all the same religion. that is not relevant.
Jayda wrote: ""“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent."
God cannot prevent what people choose. He would cease to be God by intervening with free will.
"Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent."
He is able but will not and cannot because we must choose for ourselves what we do and how we live.
"Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?"
Satan creates evil. God does not stop evil because man is supposed to choose how they live and whether or not they let evil corrupt them and tempt them and take over their lives.
"Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”"
He is able and would be willing if we didn't have free will. "
Sounds pretty useless, then.
"So he has to kill a child to put another human through a test? Seems cruel."
The child obviously didn't have to go through trials in order to come back with Heavenly Father and prove themselves. The parents still had to go through trials. It seems cruel, but that's because you're looking at it through a critical eye.
But the point is that he killed that baby. It didn't have a chance to live at all, or to choose to believe in God, meaning he won't go to a heaven, right?
But they still have the ability to choose whether or not they believe it. And some people aren't born into any religion, especially in society nowadays. And if they're born into Christianity than who will know if they actually go to church or not? There are plenty of Christian people who don't ever go to church, meaning that the family generally has no pull on the child.
Be real, Jayda. Most people don't think that much about every other religion. They believe in what they were born into. And that's true, a lot of families don't go to church every week, but if the child grew up knowing they were Christian (Or whatever religion) will likely go back to that religion and honestly practice it when they get older. (Opposed to practicing a different religion.)
Then he is not omnipotent."
God cannot prevent what people choose. He would cease to be God by intervening with free will.
"Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent."
He is able but will not and cannot because we must choose for ourselves what we do and how we live.
"Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?"
Satan creates evil. God does not stop evil because man is supposed to choose how they live and whether or not they let evil corrupt them and tempt them and take over their lives.
"Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”"
He is able and would be willing if we didn't have free will. "
Sounds pretty useless, then.
"So he has to kill a child to put another human through a test? Seems cruel."
The child obviously didn't have to go through trials in order to come back with Heavenly Father and prove themselves. The parents still had to go through trials. It seems cruel, but that's because you're looking at it through a critical eye.
But the point is that he killed that baby. It didn't have a chance to live at all, or to choose to believe in God, meaning he won't go to a heaven, right?
But they still have the ability to choose whether or not they believe it. And some people aren't born into any religion, especially in society nowadays. And if they're born into Christianity than who will know if they actually go to church or not? There are plenty of Christian people who don't ever go to church, meaning that the family generally has no pull on the child.
Be real, Jayda. Most people don't think that much about every other religion. They believe in what they were born into. And that's true, a lot of families don't go to church every week, but if the child grew up knowing they were Christian (Or whatever religion) will likely go back to that religion and honestly practice it when they get older. (Opposed to practicing a different religion.)
God has influence but He does not control your actions or how you act upon things.Whether or not you weren't exposed to anything else, there are plenty of chances in life to be exposed to other things. When you're seven you take your parents' word. When you're nineteen you want to figure things out for yourself, most of the time. When you aren't living with your parents you can choose to look for other things or choose to stay with what you've grown up with. It is still a choice that they can make. Its not their parents fault if they don't look around at other things.
OMGS WHY DOESN'T GOD SEE THAT THE PEOPLE HE CREATED ARE DESTROYING THEMSELVES AND HELP THEM OUT???? IF HE CREATED US WHY CAN'T HE SEE HOW OUR MINDS WORK AND KNOW WE AREN'T GOING TO CHANGE???sorry about the caps, but this is getting ridiculous.
so god is all-knowing and he created us. if he is all-knowing, then he saw that we would destroy the earth and each other in the future, right? then why didn't he make our brains so that no conflict would ever occur to us? why? god i all-knowing, so he sees all terrorist attacks before they happen. why didn't he warn the people on that plane and in the world trade center of 9/11 before it happened so that they wouldn't die? thats pretty cruel.
Truth is, if he let's bad happen because we have to go through trials to prove ourselves, then he is useless. And praying is useless, if he will not help us. (Since we have free will, as you keep saying.) So why do we pray to him? Oh, because he created us? Thanks a ton, God. We live in a world filled with injustice, crime, murder, and lust, and you can't do a damn thing to fix it. Yeah, thanks.
God cannot prevent things because of free-will. He gave us the ability to choose between right and wrong and if he stopped us He would cease to be God. It's like teaching a child to walk. If you never let them fall they would never learn how to balance. One of the points of living is to learn from our mistakes and not repeat them. We're being tested, and with trials there is no test. So all of those examples you gave me are trials. If we didn't have trials we would never learn and would be as ignorant children.And it's not cruel. It's reality.
And how do you know we're going to destroy the earth? o.o
ok here is something very interesting:you just said that god wants us to learn and not be as ignorant as children.
but you also said that he kicked adam and eve out of eden because they ate the fruit of knowledge and were no longer as ignorant as children.
that doesn't make sense.
Mod
Occham's Razor suggests that we should dispose of a useless idea.
J+sarcasm=I <3 you
"If we didn't have trials we would never learn and would be as ignorant children."
Adam and Eve were ignorant children. But they had no previous trial.
Nice pic j!
Haha, I love you too, Lauren =D
& Thanks ^^
& Thanks ^^
They had no previous trail because they WERE ignorant as children. Once they had knowledge they weren't as children, which means that they're accountable. God kicked them out of Eden because they sinned against God. Even children can know the difference between right and wrong. They knew that what God said was good and true. And still they didn't listen to Him and sinned against him, causing them to be kicked out of Eden. And technically Eden turned into a normal part of the earth. It says that Eden grew thorns and all things that are painful.
"Hmm...my best friend in first grade was Muslim, we celebrated Channukah and Diwali, and some of my closest friends were Hindi. My mother converted when she was a teenager so when I was growing up, I was always told I could be whatever I wanted and believed. So, the answer to your question is A TON."And they both live or have visited America, am I correct.
And they both live or have visited America, am I correct.
Who? My Muslim and Hindi friends? Yah, they live in America. They are on goodreads, in this group. Mavra was my best friend in first grade. She somtimes posts in here.
I don't know if anybody read my previous post:
GOD is NOT evil, nor is he trying to make us fail, nor does he think we are ignorant, nor is he a bad being, nor is he a stupid idea. I'm actually rather insulted that you would call my beliefs and God stupid or foolish. My philosophy is:
God creates us all
God is a divine being that cannot be compared to humans
God put us on this planet
God knows all
God does not stop us from doing wrong BECAUSE
God decided life is not worth living without learning and working for perfection therefore
God lets us make our mistakes and kill people and get hurt and die and commit horrible acts BECAUSE
we are not perfect and learning is a part of life
IT IS NOT BECAUSE
God is evil
or malicious
or does not care about us
or likes watching us struggle
IT IS BECAUSE
What is life worth if we don't learn?
We are not put on this earth to be perfect,
nor will that succeed
We are here to be human, to live and learn and try to be perfect and good, but we will never achieve it, however that is what we are supposed to work for.
if they had no knowledge, how did they know his word was good and true?
You don't know what faith is?And the way you know that you have faith is by feeling and knowing. Knowledge from that tree generally means things not of God, aka worldly things such as sex and how to raise a family, that sort of thing. God was with them, meaning that they knew He existed.
Anyway, I'm off to babysit :)
G'night!
faith requires knowledge. they had no knowledge, therefore no faith. explain that to me. and why didn't god even create the tree of knowledge? or why didn't he just put it somewhere that adam and eve couldn't access?
Mod
But, they got a free pass to not suffer and have fun. We are we being blamed for a crime we never committed?
If God can see his future actions, then he has no free will, because he cannot change what he sees. If he is all powerful, then could he make a rock so heavy then he cannot life?
Basic characteristics that are generally attributed to him are contradictory.
Emma the Dork wrote: "faith requires knowledge. they had no knowledge, therefore no faith. explain that to me. and why didn't god even create the tree of knowledge? or why didn't he just put it somewhere that adam and e..."FAITH DOES NOT REQUIRE KNOWLEDGE, EVIDENCE, OR SCIENCE.
Adam and Eve (who, coincidentally, I do not happen to believe in) DID have some knowledge. And certainly a lot of faith.
If God can see his future actions, then he has no free will, because he cannot change what he sees. If he is all powerful, then could he make a rock so heavy then he cannot life?
He has complete free will, he can change what he sees. He is all powerful, though lifting a rock, according to my version of God, is nwither here nor there because such human traits cannot be attributed to him. And I don't really see your point, there, Lauren.
Basic characteristics that are generally attributed to him are contradictory.
Example, please?
What I think you still fail to understand is the concept of blind faith. It doesn't matter what free will he has and it doesn't matter whether God can lift a rock or change the future. I still believe in God.
Mod
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipote...
If he changes what he sees, then that means he was not perfect, because the first course of action is somehow negative.
If he can do things, then the act of doing them is like being human, because doing this is something a human does. He has talked, so he must have some sort of mouth. He can see the world, so he must have eyes. ANd if he is so big, and different form humans, they why would he bother with us, on a insignificant planet, around an average star, in some random corner of the universe? What makes us special of that attention?
Lauren, I do not think you understand fully what God is and what faith means.
I'll rebut your debate tomorrowbut today is Easter (Happy Easter to All Christians and Those Who Celebrate It!!!).
Mod
who said i didn't believe in god?? i love jesus and god. i just don't believe in adam and eve or hell and heaven.
Mod
a lot of ways. like i believe in some parts of buddhism, some parts of christianity, some parts of greek mythology, etc. how is that hard to believe?
Because each religion is different. Isn't religion there to find the truth? To believe in the truth? Taking certain aspects from all of these completely different religions definitely doesn't lead you to the truth.
Mod
J wrote: "Because each religion is different. Isn't religion there to find the truth? To believe in the truth? Taking certain aspects from all of these completely different religions definitely doesn't lead ..."Not necessarily.
And Emma's form can be religion, just not a religion that is defined yet. I kind of do the same thing; Catholicism with weird spiritual meditation and Buddhist philosophies and yoga breathing and weird stuff like that.
I'm saying it's not practical. At least, if you believe in a god, there's a possibility one of the hundreds of religions are true. But to take different aspects from completely different religions and just smash it all together is like believing in something that has no chance to be true. Which in my mind, is silly.
Mod
Nothing anyone has seen, ever, in recorded history, has ever defied the laws of physics as we know them. Nothing supernatural has occurred.
J, you seem to not be listening to what I say. I don't think some religions are "true" and some are "false" and mine is "the right one". I don't care what religion you believe in, how Eva Anne practices religion, how devout Chandani is, and whether or not Lauren is an aetheist. That is not what I am concerned about. In my opinion, there is NO ONE, CORRECT WAY. No, combining religions is not silly, sometimes one religion just doesn't fit you, but aspects of it do. It is all about what makes you become a better person and what can get you through hard times. All religions are true, because some people believe in them. I think what you mean is that they don't have chances of being real. You still don't understand the concept of FAITH. The UILTIMATE GOAL is not to find scientific evidence that God is real! So would you stop calling our religions silly and realize that we have different views, and some of us need faith and religion?
Lauren, it doesn't matter if chances of God being real are astronomical!!!!!!! The ultimate goal is not to find evidence or proof of God or Jesus!!!!! If you have FAITH, that just doesn't matter. Actually, though I agree with your point, miracles have been recorded. In the bible, there are all sorts of fables about Jesus walking on water or turning water into wine or Moses parting the sea (though I do not believe in all of those). But, AGAIN, you miss the point. It is not about EVIDENCE or TRUTH or SCIENTIFIC PROOF. It is about FAITH and what makes a person better. For many people, the motivation to be a better person comes from God and religion, which is very positive for our culture.
What do you guys have against religion? Other than the fact that you don't believe it is possible. So what if it doesn't help you, it makes so many people better people and helps them in hard times. So it might not be the right thing for you, but you can still recognize how important and valuable it is, and how there is plenty of merit to God and religion. It isn't lying to oneself and it isn't silly, it is extreme faith.
Nothing supernatural has occurred that you know of :)Sorry for not posting a longer post. I'm too tired right now to respond to everything just yet.
thanks, liz. actually you guys, it is a sort of spirituality. and i am not truly buddhist, but some parts of it i agree with. my mom used to go to these spiritual meetings with this one really famous spiritual guy, and i would go with her and listen. J, we have been through this already.
It is exactly like lying to yourself. You make yourself believe someone is out there to help you and listen to you and help you through it all, just so you can get through hard times.
And about it making some of us better people: I know. That's a good thing, a very good thing. But there are other ways to get that motivation.
And about it making some of us better people: I know. That's a good thing, a very good thing. But there are other ways to get that motivation.
And how, J, would you recommend getting the motivation?Other than that, you have no idea whether or not we're lying to ourselves since there's no proof that a God doesn't exist. Because you don't believe in God you feel that we lie to ourselves. Because we do believe in God we feel that we're being true to ourselves rather than lying, as you said. There's a difference because of beliefs.
Mod
*people who make the claim must prove the claim*
That's true. But for some people, faith is all they have to find motivation with. Not me - I could find motivation elsewhere. But a lot of my motivation for being moral and what I consider clean is my religion. I dearly love my religion and I follow what we believe, which is why I have specific morals.I could say the same thing to you guys, Lauren :)
Mod
No, I'm not familiar with that. What is it?
Jayda wrote: "That's true. But for some people, faith is all they have to find motivation with. Not me - I could find motivation elsewhere. But a lot of my motivation for being moral and what I consider clean is..."
You can have the same morals without a religion telling you to.
You can have the same morals without a religion telling you to.
*is reading*But would the morals be as strong and the same without religion existing?
Yes. You get morals from family and society. Religion is not necessary to enforce them.
Mod
And I also think religion did less good than bad 'back in the day.' With so much hatred toward Jews, Quakers, Catholics, etc.
But religion, I feel, created such high morals. Without religion I don't think that they would be as strong or the same as they are today. And I also feel that there would be very little to keep us from breaking those morals since, well, there's no ultimate consequence to actions, in a sense.And I read the page, Lauren. I understood it entirely. Yet, you have no proof that there is a God, which is still my argument. So until there's proof that there is no God I'm not going to take your word for it that there isn't :) And until you can present said proof you shouldn't say that there is no God with such certainty. I thought you based your beliefs on proof? There is no proof that there is or isn't a God. Not to sound patronizing or rude, of course ^^
Sure, sure, religion created the morals but it is still absolutely possible to keep them going without religion.
You say there is a god. You have no proof. You cannot make that claim. And since you cannot make that claim, there is nothing to debate about, meaning no need for us atheists to tell you that we believe you are wrong. We don't have to prove anything, you do.
You say there is a god. You have no proof. You cannot make that claim. And since you cannot make that claim, there is nothing to debate about, meaning no need for us atheists to tell you that we believe you are wrong. We don't have to prove anything, you do.
Mod
A copy of The God Delusion is worth a read. :)
There is no proof :) And if you want me to believe your side then yes, you have to prove to me that there is no God. See how it goes both ways?
But they still have the ability to choose whether or not they believe it. And some people aren't born into any religion, especially in society nowadays. And if they're born into Christianity than who will know if they actually go to church or not? There are plenty of Christian people who don't ever go to church, meaning that the family generally has no pull on the child.
"Why would God let them fail so miserably"
They choose to fail so miserably. God cannot stop what men choose. Otherwise he would cease to be God.
"So he has to kill a child to put another human through a test? Seems cruel."
The child obviously didn't have to go through trials in order to come back with Heavenly Father and prove themselves. The parents still had to go through trials. It seems cruel, but that's because you're looking at it through a critical eye.
"“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent."
God cannot prevent what people choose. He would cease to be God by intervening with free will.
"Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent."
He is able but will not and cannot because we must choose for ourselves what we do and how we live.
"Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?"
Satan creates evil. God does not stop evil because man is supposed to choose how they live and whether or not they let evil corrupt them and tempt them and take over their lives.
"Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”"
He is able and would be willing if we didn't have free will.