A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
Crackpottery - This is where we just throw it all out there.
To protect her from anyone. Westeros isn't exactly a safe space for unaccompanied women.My headcannon is that Rhaegar and Lyanna were traveling during most of Roberts rebellion. Until Lyanna got too pregnant and had to be left behind at the tower while Rhaegar continued back to KL to address the rebellion. Aerys wasn't taking the rebellion seriously until after the battle of the bells then he dispatched Hightower to find Rhaegar and bring him home.
I bet varys has the details on where Rhaegar went and what he was doing. Rhaegar must have been communicating with aerys to some extent. Varys was one of the few people aerys trusted.
The thing if the whole 'Lyanna fell in love' falls apart is how horrible she would have been. Her father and brother killed by her 'father in law'. Her younger brother and fiancé are sentenced to be executed. The whole kingdom thinks she's been kidnapped and a whole war starts killing many people she probably and Rhager know. Yet rather than tell anyone, they hide in Dorne, so Rhager hides his mistress on his wife's land. He abandons his wife and kids. They could have run off to the free cities. Targeyrans had more than one wife. A disgruntled Robert, might have been a price worth paying, doubt a war would have started over that. As the lords were planning on placing Rhager on the throne that's what the tourney at Harrenhal was about, linking the Starks to the King might have been a good deal.
Instead she would have watched her entire family killed by her lover. Nice.
If Varys knew why is his plan Young Griff and let's face it to begin with a half hearted plan with Viseryes.
Well it's likely they may not have none exactly what was going on. They weren't exactly checking Twitter. Plus I think there was more happening during then rebellion than we're lead to believe. But I think it's intentionally left vague because It either relates directly to the current plot or it has nothing bearing on the current plot. I think it's the former or else what's the point. We can speculate on what could have been going on.
This is exactly why I can't wait for us to learn the full story. Part of my head cannon thinks that Lyanna and Rhaegar attempted to notify her family. Otherwise, it's just stupid and too much human error. Somewhere in the notification process her letter or whatever was prevented. She thought they knew and was waiting on a response. In the meantime, Brandon "The Wild Wolf" Stark marches to KL yelling for Rhaegar. Before her or Rhaegar know it, the damage is done people are killed and the world is thrown into chaos. Even without Lyanna and Rhaegar's tryst, I believe the story was heading to a rebellion of some sorts anyways. I can't wait for a complete history of events
Hmm we learned from Stannis that owls can travel to multiple locations maybe the owl was intercepted and the letter replaced or never sent. Maybe the letter arrived to winterfell and benjen received it. There's got to be a reason benjen took the black after Ned retuned. He must have felt guilty about something.
If there's confused messages, Rhager could have surrendered before a battle, to tell Ned, Robert and Jon Arynn. Instead he started a battle to kill them. Either there's more to it, or GRRM has left massive plot holes or morally questionable characters. Which I don't mind as long it comes out Rhager and Lyanna were selfish and stupid.
Rhaegar still wanted to be king. He couldnt simply surrender. He could have tried to talk but he was a little late for that. Robert isn't the type of person you reason with. And there's no way for him to have known how Ned would have responded. Overall the targaryens had to fall to setup the current story. It happened because it had to happen. Consider it prophecy or fate or loose storytelling.
It would be interesting to figure out when Benjen took the black. As the third son of a Northern family it isn't unusual for him to have taken the black, especially if it was done before the rebellion. Did Rhaegar start the battle or did Robert? Robert was probably on the march and Rhaegar's army went to meet his. It's also important to note that though the Arryn-Baratheon-Stark alliance was justified they were in the wrong. More info surrounding the battle of the trident would be great. I'd like to see that in season 7. None of what characters have said about Rhaegar point to him being selfish or stupid. Lyanna possibly was more impulsive but I don't think that equates to stupidity or selfishness.
That's my main problem with it. The whole 'everything is prophecy' deal. Just seems tired.
Just hard to have 'oh so many missed messages'. I think Benjen was about 9. Him destroying some letter seems unlikely.
At the end of the day Rhaegar ran away with Bobby B's gal
@ Alex--Lyanna wasn't to know that Brandon would ride to Kings Landing to confront a mad man & demand his sister's return, this was Brandon's & Rickards mistake in thinking they could demand anything from a king gone mad. It is always the uninentional human equation that people who make these plans disregard....Lyanna had no crystal ball to gaze into about the repercussions of her actions. When it comes to Elia Martell, there was nothing that Rhaegar could do, as Aerys had basically put Elia under house arrest, the deaths of Elia & her children can be placed at Aerys door. Aerys also mistrusted Rhaegar & was paranoid about his son, and much of this is due to Varys whispering into the Kings ear. As for Rhaegar surrendering, he is the Crown Prince of House Targaryen, he would never surrender his birthright & I do believe it was prophecy that was the driving force between Rhaegar and Lyanna.
The whole prophecy thing may seem tired, but would we think the same if the books had come out every 2 years? And the series was over and we had the answers to our questions? I think not. It seems tired because GRRM has dragged this story out for nearly two decades now & we still don't know if we'll get the answers in Winds...It's the time element that is frustrating many readers, I think.
@ Thomas--The real tragedy is, that Bobby B never really loved Lyanna, & when Ned begs Robert to remember Lyanna to try & save Sansa's direwolf, Robert turns a deaf ear. I doubt Robert loved anyone throughout his entire drunken life.
@JaphiaHart--"Well it's likely they may not have none exactly what was going on. They weren't exactly checking Twitter"...That made me chuckle LOL....And unlike the show, none of the characters can teleport ;)And you're right, I think Varys knows a lot more than what he has revealed, if only he had his own POV.....
If only Aerys had died at during the Seige of Duskendale and Rhaegar had been crowned king..
Rhager runs off with Lyanna 'we're so in love everything will be alright'
Brandon is arrested. 'Don't worry everything will be fine'
Brandon and Rickard are killed 'OK we'll have to do something' nothing done.
Death sentences put on Ned and Robert
'Should we do something?'
'Nah just keep moving around'
War rips apart kingdom apart, Lyanna 'what you going to do?'
Rhager says 'Well I'm going off to kill your brother and betrothed, should make everything Ok' and Lyanna is fine with this apparently.
They only way I can see the whole 'missing letters' might work, is if Ned did know. That his dream of saying sorry to Lyanna, is that she told him yet his strong message of loyalty and duty, that she should marry Robert. That love is not a reason for marriage, it's alliance building. He regrets that he told her that, and she ran away.
I really don't think it went down like that with Rhaegar and lyanna. Frivolity just doesn't fit with either of their personalities. All we can say for sure is that Rhaegar and lyanna left. Then, Yadda yadda Yadda. Rhaegar returns and dies. Lyanna gives birth then dies. Jon is born.
Honestly, "Jon is born" may be the only part of their story that matters.
That Yadda Yadda could be literally anything. A dramatic tale in which Rhaegar and lyanna save the world together from a hellmouth opened by the children of the forest. Or as boring as Rhaegar and lyanna took an extended vacation to the summer isles to grab some wine.
It doesn't really matter either way. Except the hellmouth option would make for a cool prequel.
I don't thinks frivolity, it's that there's nothing they seemed to have done to stop any of it. Not one character (except Ned) has expressed any regret over what happened. Also no one talks about Rhager loving Lyanna. Barriston would have probably known, yet he doesn't mention it to Dany, and as Varys seems to know everything wouldn't he have told a few people like Tyrion?
We also aren't considering how long it takes messages to travel in Westeros.
How long was the war? At least six months? From the tourney at Harrenhal to Brandons death was a year. I'm sure at least one message would be sent.
Would Barristan have known if Rhaegar loved Lyanna? I've never gotten the impression that Barristan was one of his confidants. Plus I think her running away with Rhaegar happened shortly after they met at the Tourney. I'm not sure really if anyone else besides Ser Arthur would have known.
I thought they ran off soon after the tourney, but it was a year.
Messages in westeros can only be sent if you have a raven. and they can only be received if you're in a place a raven knows to go. Otherwise it's hand delivered and again people have to know where you are. No one blames Rhaegar and lyanna cause what happened wasn't there fault. Returning wouldn't have helped much since it was the deaths of the Starks that triggered the war. What's interesting is that Robert only ever mentions lyanna and Rhaegar as the motivation which isn't really accurate.
All of this is why I'm desperate for a prequel.
Er...its totally their fault. All this talk of slow raven messages. I bet a message could be sent to Rhager and Lyanna and back, in the time it took for Brandon to know Lyanna had been 'kidnapped', ride from Winterfell all the way to King Landing, be arresrested, a message sent to Rickard to come, and then for him to ride to Kings Landing.
Alex wrote: "Rhager runs off with Lyanna 'we're so in love everything will be alright'
Brandon is arrested. 'Don't worry everything will be fine'
Brandon and Rickard are killed 'OK we'll have to do something' ..."
"Apparently" is the appropriate word.....TBH GRRM has taken so long in writing this series that it has spoiled the rhythm of the books..... 20 odd years later and five books and we still do not have the back story to what really happened between Rhaegar & Lyanna....Why the Kingsguard were not at Aerys or Rhaegars side...Why both Rhaegar & apparently Lyanna took no note of the consequences of their running off...or if she was truly 'kidnapped' which I doubt...What exactly is this prophecy that drove Rhaegar? We still don't know......All I can say is that thank God we are getting some answers in the show...confirmation R+L=J...And hopefully next year we'll get the Tourney of Harrenhal.....
Sorry if someone has already crack pottery-ed this theory. I wonder if book Bran can influence the past the way show Bran can e.g. (view spoiler) Robert & Ned waged a war against Rhaegar because they believed he raped and kidnapped Lyanna. What if Bran was able to make the truth known (assuming R+L was a love union) before the war? Wouldn't it be something if history did change, and Starks+Baratheons+Targaryens allied to fight the others + Others?
Of course, that will also change the history for everything else including Dany, Jon etc. Like I said, a wild theory.
That would be a fascinating use of time travel in the story. The only way that could effect the outcome is if bran could talk to Brandon directly and stop him from going to kings landing to challenge Rhaegar. There's also that theory that bran is all of the Brandon Starks. what if the war needed to occur.
Bran spends ages trying to stop it but time kept correcting itself. Like on Doctor who when the doctor is all "paradoxes work themselves out". People behave or react in ways that create "plotholes" because they're being influenced by the timeline.
Ok, that's crack pottery but I just watched Donnie Darko.
Right! That's a plausible thought. Bran = all Brandon. No coincidence then that they share the same name; a clue in broad daylight. Although time-travelling theory crosses a little into SF, I think. Not a fan of space-time continuum stuff, at least not in ASOIAF. In any case, the time travelling for Show Bran is just a device to show viewers the L+J past, since not all have the benefit of reading about it. As such, I shoot my own theory down.
as I read I feel myself getting more frustrated than intrigued. Danny trusted a SLAVE over her khals own riders. Where is the sense in that.
Ned literally takes his daughters into the lions den KNOWING theres bad juju Where is the sense in that.
Ned and Cat both mistrust LF yet they both follow along. It makes no sense.
Tyrion was practically released on the way to the Vale yet Cat still continued with her folly.
Dont even get me started on idiots listening to Joff.
so I dont think rl frolicking is beyond reason.
reading clash of kings and again theres no sense. Renly told Ned hed help him dethrone Joff. I cant remember but I think he accepted Stannis would be king. Yet now Renly wants to be King? The whole realm knows how prickly stannis is. Don't get me started on yet another fool trusting a fool who makes no sense.
Hmm someone being a slave doesn't inherently make them untrustworthy.. Dany was naive to believe that M would be loyal to her because she stopped her from getting raped. Which is the kind of romantic thing a 13-14 year old would believe. But I wouldn't put It past r and l just running off. They were young themselves. But I imagined that lyanna's morality would be similar to Jon's and he didn't do that when romantic notions would have led the story that way but. I dunno. Maybe?
Dantezgirl wrote: "as I read I feel myself getting more frustrated than intrigued. Danny trusted a SLAVE over her khals own riders. Where is the sense in that.
Ned literally takes his daughters into the lions den..."
Dany thinks the Dothraki are superstitious, and so ignores their advice. Once Khal Drogo became ill, she realised she'd lose her own power as the Khals follow strength, & so as a last hope, she trusted the wrong person, Mirri Maz Duur.
Ned took his daughters to KL in the knowledge that Sansa would one day marry Joffrey, it would be a way to educate her in the way of how the Court works. He did not understand how much Robert had changed, & he begins to understand on the way to KL, that Robert is not the man he once was. Ned did decide to leave several times, but was stopped when Jaime confronted him & he was injured....I really don' know why he took Arya, unless both parents thought that Arya would turn into a 'lady' whilst at KL. In the books Cat is ambitious for her family & encouraged Ned to become THotK.
Cat thinks she 'knows' Littlefinger, but she is remembering the young boy she grew up, and she has a romantic notion that 'Petyr is still half in love with her'...So she starts out being suspicious, but then totally falls for Baelish's lies & then advises Ned that he too can trust Littelfinger. They both think that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn & tried to kill Bran & being surrounded by enemies, they turn to Littlefinger...& it is frustrating as a reader.
Cat continues with her folly because she has bought into Littlefinger's lies and truly believes that the Lannisters want her family dead & she is worried for her family.
Renly tries to let Ned know that he is living in a snake pit and with Robert dead, they are all in danger. Renly knows that Joffrey is a lunatic, but Ned sees him as a spoilt young lad & refuses to 'frighten little children'......But Renly is also listening to Loras & so he makes his biggest mistake in trying to take the crown for himself.
Wait until you get to Robb & Cat's mistakes...I was pulling my hair out lol.....
japI completely agree about a slave not being inherantly loyal. look at Theon and the wildling woman at winterfel. But I also believe she shouldve trusted his riders. A day or less for the eunics to arrive or a command they come NOW would've saved Drogo and Rhaego. Im sure they know a dire wound when they see one? she took a simple matter and made it into something. again I understand her youth. same with LR.
RebeccaThen at the very least send the girls home once Ned gets a feeling Rob isnt right. Im sure Sansa didnt NEED to be there right then and there. A year or two or even on their wedding day. Nothing wrong with them visiting each other. I dont believe Sansa needed courtly manners the girl lived and breathed courtly manners. Agree about Arya though I doubt even Ned knew how much like Lyanna she was.
Even as cat remembered her time with LF as a child he still came of cunning and sneaky. But I understand about her relying on his affections for her.
She shouldve turned back the minute Tyrion started making sense. Sent her apologies. I don't understand why she went to Lysa and not her father or even KL. I mean if you're gonna send your kids there why not also go there lol
Keep reading dantze all of these questions are answered.As for trusting the wrong people. Yup, it happens. Hindsight is everything. On my first read I didn't think there was anything wrong with trusting with trusting anyone of them.
As for the slave thing, Missandi is so far loyal. Grey worm is loyal. Melissandre is loyal in her way. people are either good or bad and sometimes you can't tell which. I imagine that's a pretty constant theme in asoiaf.
You win or you die.
True that Jap :)Bwahaha I love seeing Tyrion clean house :) I gotta ask. Why not Pike Varys, Pycelle, LF?
bleh a dead man spouts no politics. it is known lol
westeros.org has some mighty interesting things! id forgot how much info was there :) thanks for the reminder
Dantezgirl wrote: "RebeccaThen at the very least send the girls home once Ned gets a feeling Rob isnt right. Im sure Sansa didnt NEED to be there right then and there. A year or two or even on their wedding day. Not..."
Ned was going to send the girls home, but Sansa herself intervenes, and learns later much to her cost that 'life is not a song, sweetling.'
I don't think Ned wanted to believe that Robert had changed so drastically, he wanted to think the best of Robert, but gradually & unconsciously his opinion changes, even though he never becomes disloyal, yet he knows that Robert was a terrible king and father.
As for Cat throughout her chapters, she questions Petyr's motives in her thoughts, but fate intervenes and her questions remained unanswered. She is simply blinkered by Petyr & refuses to believe badly of him, even though in her private thoughts, she is beginning to doubt Petyr's honesty.
And I agree, keep reading even when you want to give up....I threw a Storm of Swords across the room at one stage, so you will become enraged at times, but persevere, it's worth it :)
its said Renlys corpse disappeared? is he now a wight? other? what happened to it?
I'd never noticed that before but found that loess buried it in a secret location. For some undisclosed reason. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?...
thanks jap. nice to see loras protect renly after death.
Varys and his tale of how he was cut. What is the magae called and wanted? Also, any chance he had a hand bringing down Srannis?
Rebecca wrote: "Dantezgirl wrote: "RebeccaThen at the very least send the girls home once Ned gets a feeling Rob isnt right. Im sure Sansa didnt NEED to be there right then and there. A year or two or even on the..."
lol In which part of SoS that you threw the book across the room in frustration? For me, Robb will always have a special place in my heart as one of the most stupid people in Westeros (Only second to probably Mord). And Cat.... as much as I feel super sorry for all the things happening to her, I just can't help but cringe so hard at her series of poor life choices. She just never learned!!
Yip it just goes from folly to folly :(
Siya wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "Dantezgirl wrote: "RebeccaThen at the very least send the girls home once Ned gets a feeling Rob isnt right. Im sure Sansa didnt NEED to be there right then and there. A year or tw..."
I threw ASOS across the room when Arya got hit on the head, I thought the Hound had killed her & with the deaths of Robb & Cat it was too much, so I made the book Flyyyyyyy LOL.....
speaking of Howland. Its said he was Neds staunchest support yet never be stirred himself to liberate Ned from KL nor help Robb march on the Lannisters. Even then he never came to help mann Winterfell HIMSELF he sends his children. I don't understand this. Mark you, he could've been beside Ned the whole way far as we know. Im thinking of Mance little trick to enter Winterfell during
When it comes to Rhaegar there was more to this than just 'falling in love', I believe it involves some prophecy that Rhaegar became obsessed with & believed in fully & perhaps Lyanna did too.
Also the country was at war & Rhaegar could not be sure if either Tywin Lannister or Robert Baratheon himself might seek them out at the TOJ.....I know at the Tourney of Harrenhal, Brandon Stark became incensed when Rhaegar named Lyanna QofL&B...And when Aerys brutally murdered both Rickard & Brandon Stark, maybe Rhaegar was unsure how Ned would react to a Targaryen babe?
To me it speaks volumes that the Kingsguard stayed with Lyanna at the TOJ & that Rhaegar seemed to have sought out these men personally to serve him.....and even the LC Hightower ended up staying at the TOJ after he delivered the Kings message to Rhaegar.
It is still such a mystery....hopefully we will get more info in Winds.....But there is more to this than just a 'doomed love story.'