A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
Crackpottery - This is where we just throw it all out there.
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Silvana
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Jun 05, 2015 12:04AM
It would be interesting if the Others are actually the good guys who only appear to cleanse Westeros from arseholes like the Boltons and the Freys.
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Well, those are interesting theories.Although... Everyone seems to think if Jon dies and comes back, he'll be released from his vows. I actually hope this is not the case because the only way that would work is if he doesn't really comes back as himself, if he possess Ghost or becomes something inhuman. But if Melisandre revives him, or someone heals him back to health, or anything that allows him to be alive as Jon Snow, then it wouldn't affect his vows.
First, because it goes against his character. He already had an opportunity to legally get away from the Wall. Stannis offered him being released from his vows, legitimized as a Stark and become Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. He even offered him a hot wildlind wife. But Jon chose his duty, he chose the Wall.
I suppose it could be argued that his loyalty to the Night's Watch could shift after being betrayed by his brothers, but I still think going away now would go against all that has being developed about him during the story. What he might do is seize the opportunity of everyone believing him dead to sneak away to Winterfell and fight Ramsay, which is what he was about to do before the stabbing.
And second, because if Jon goes away and then someone asks him why he's not on the Wall, if he deserted the Night's Watch, what is he going to say? "Oh, no, but you see, I died, so I'm released of my vows and I can do whatever I want now, like riding dragons and marrying my aunt Daenerys, who I have never met but fans want me to... even though they say they despise incest, but they seem to make an exception with us..."
Huh... I think I went a bit off topic there. Sorry.
About the Others not being that bad, although that would be a really unexpected turn, I don't really think it's plausible. I think it's been clearly established already that they are pretty much evil personified.
And I don't think the crypts in Winterfell would provide much of an army, since most of those corpses are probably dust by now. The Others can rise wights but I don't think they can regenerate their flesh.
The Children of the Forest and Giants were forced away from civilization by the coming of the Andals, that's how they ended up on the wrong side if the Wall. But if the Others weren't bad or they were an army of the Starks, what's the point of building the Wall then?
I don't know, it's all very confusing, the North is the land with more mysteries than any other in Westeros. But it sure is fun to try to guess them XD
Well technically, if Jon Snow were to die, one of his brothers would say "His Watch Is Done"! Which does release him from his vows. Remember hes the hero of the story, hero's never get what they want, there lead to there destiny.The crypts of Winterfell are like cold storage, not a lot of rot going on down there.
As for The Others. I truly believe the Starks created them 8000 years ago. I think there a weapon that wait's till there needed, and then resurfaces. Why else would they create a horn that could take down the wall? All stories are 8000 years old so we know the true purpose would have been lost with time. Everyone seems to think Coldhands was Benjen Stark, he he cant be, the children of the forest said he was VERY OLD. Maybe Benjen's off with the others right now, or at the very least in the lands of always winter?
Just thought of something else. If the Stark's were so afraid of the dead 8000 years ago, why wouldn't they burn them just like the Wildlings do? I think this plays a little into my theory that The Other's are actually working for the Stark's as a weapon of sorts.
Is there a theory that Coldhands is the Night's King?
I like that idea Silvana!!!I'm one of the few people in Westeros who is not a fan of Jon Snow. I am hoping he just stays dead.
I'm pretty sure cryogenics haven't been invented in Westeros yet XDMaybe Qyburn has made some experiments about it though, that wouldn't surprise me.
And yeah, maybe the Starks of the ancient times had something to do with the creation of the Others, I agree that might be possible. That doesn't mean they're good though. But who knows. Still, possible as it might be, I believe they're older than the presence of men in Westeros, like the Children of the Forest and the Giants.
And yeah, I use to think Coldhands was Benjen, now I'm pretty much convinced that it isn't him. I guess he could be the Night's King, but then we need some serious explanations, because holy shit, that's weird.
Jessica wrote: "I like that idea Silvana!!!I'm one of the few people in Westeros who is not a fan of Jon Snow. I am hoping he just stays dead."
So you live in Westeros? LOL. Jon Snow is coming back one way or another. Hopefully for you Westerosi people not as a Wight.
I like the idea that the Others might be the good guys and in league with the wildlings, Children of the Forest and Starks, but it doesn't really add up. As someone mentioned earlier, the wildlings don't live beyond the Wall by choice, it is simply the only place where they aren't under the rule of some lord or king. They obviously fear the Others, that is why Mance Rayder tried to bring them south, but refused to bring down the Wall; he wanted to protect his people. He even said something lilk that to Jon in ASoS: "I have come to hide behind your wall".It also seems to me that Jon and Daenerys are linked through Dany's dragons and Valyrian ancestors, and Jon's weapons of dragonglass and Valyrian steel. I just can't imagine them being on opposite sides in the whole ice/fire-battle.
Remy wrote: "I'm pretty sure cryogenics haven't been invented in Westeros yet XDMaybe Qyburn has made some experiments about it though, that wouldn't surprise me.
And yeah, maybe the Starks of the ancient ti..."
Ever since the first book and the quote, "If you play the game of thrones you win or you die.," I have viewed the series with a weird outlook. This one line gives us a lot of information, which we have seen played out over and over and over. A hero to one person is an enemy to another. An enemy can be anyone...even family. Good has a different meaning to every character and so does bad.
That said, I have this feeling that the wights/others aren't necessarily bad. They have been building an army, recruiting, and getting ready for battle....just like everyone else in Westeros.
Intuition? I don't know. But they obviously are an important part. And I think it would be an appropriate place for Martin to insert one of his great plot twists.
I also have taken the title, A Song of Ice and Fire, literally. Dragons vs wights/ice. I mean let's be honest, if anyone wins, it's the dragons. They can burn everything and melt the wights in one swoop. GO DRAGONS! Everyone burns and dies. The end. Man can fight each other all day but you can't fight nature.
Ad.costas wrote: "Jessica wrote: "I like that idea Silvana!!!
I'm one of the few people in Westeros who is not a fan of Jon Snow. I am hoping he just stays dead."
So you live in Westeros? LOL. Jon Snow is coming b..."
I consider this group Westeros. lol It's like having the politics without the landscape. I
I would rather Jon be a wight than pull a Lady Stoneheart or whatever. I want something more if he's going to stay.
So the wildlings occupied north of the wall before it was built, what if they were put there with the sole purpose of creating an army for the others?
Okay so my next theory. Bran talked to Jon thru a weirwood, and opened his third eye, before he knew how. What are the chances that BloodRaven is wrong, or he is telling Bran he can't change the past more as a rule of thumb.
GRRM has been showing us different shades in the moral and conscience of his characters, but what if the Others are another twist in that view? The proof that besides all the complexity of human nature and the difficulty of being completely "good" or "bad", there is something out there that's purely evil without reason or motive?
Well besides the fact he's said don't look at the others as evil...
Here is something completely out of the left field: Will Danny die in childbirth?I mean Mirri Maz Dur said this:
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before
The above mentioned things about the sea and mountains might very well occur in the end time scenario that's about to go down ... and if Drogon returns to her, it would be because she died too ...
It might be part of the bittersweet ending GRRm has been teasing us with
How old was Rhaegars child? also any chance the child could be the mad kings not Rhaegars? The Tower Of Joy
Lyanna was described with black rose petals falling from her hand after she passed. The room also smelled of roses. Whats the significance of the rose? I associate roses with house Tyrell. Any chance its a Tyrell child?
ned also mentioned her takes her flowers and tgst she was fond of flowers. said with I think hesitation? uncertainty? again I cant help associate flowers with Tyrell.
Just curious WHY was Benjin informed of Roberts arrival? Im having trouble understanding why it was necessary.
cat says Robert may turn on Ned if he refuses to be Hand as the king ship has changed him. Is this true? Ive seen no evidence of betrayal. Why didnt ned say he needed to escort Cat to the eyrie so couldn't accept right now.
why didnt they suspect foul play tge min a dodgy letter arrives
Dantezgirl wrote: "How old was Rhaegars child? also any chance the child could be the mad kings not Rhaegars? The Tower Of Joy
Lyanna was described with black rose petals falling from her hand after she passed. The..."
Prince Rhaegar named Lyanna Stark the Queen of love & beauty at the Tourney of Harrenhal & gave her blue roses...I believe Lyanna kept these roses with her till the end. It has nothing to do with the Tyrells.
Ned hesitates because he does not wish to bring up bad memories aka blue roses=Rhaegar giving them to Lyanna at the Tourney.
I am not sure why Benjen was informed, unless it was seen as an opportunity to appeal for more recruits to the Nights Watch.
In the books Cat wanted Ned to accept the offer made by King Robert(in the show it is the reverse) to be Hand of the King.
I think Cat went to Kings Landing after a man tried to murder Bran taking the dagger with her......here she meets up with Littlefinger and Varys & a brief reunion with Ned. Both Ned & Cat could see that Robert had changed from the man he used to be & he was totally beholden to the Lannister's and their money.
Cat trusted her sister and believed what her sister had told her in that letter.
I hope that helps :)
PS: Rhaegar had two children by Elia Martell.Rhaenys who I think was 3 when she was murdered.
Aegon who was 1 or 2 years old when he allegedly died.
Rhaegar also had a child with Lyanna & that is Jon Snow.
Benjen would have been sent to help persuade Robert to send more men for the wall. It's not often the King is so far north. More likely benjen was specifically sent because politically speaking he still has an "in" with Robert via Ned. But considering Benjen is likely even worse at politics than his brother I doubt he would have done much persuading. But I believe Robert does agree to send more men from the dungeons as someone from the wall is there collecting men when Ned is there. But ultimately, benjen was plot device to introduce the wall and to motivate Jon into joining.
Rhaenys *could* be aerys' but considering she died at 3 there's no real reason for her to have been. It's possible, but I would imagine unlikely.
Thanks Rebecca it does help. So the prince had a wife and two children and was off dallying with another? and had her installed at the castle? im wondering how long she was there for. 9 months is a long time. No wonder Dorn is livid. I find it odd the room was described as smelling of roses. But I guess its as simple as it was her and the prince thing. I feel bad for Dorn.
japI saw it as a plot design also. just doesnt make sense.
Dantezgirl wrote: "Thanks Rebecca it does help. So the prince had a wife and two children and was off dallying with another? and had her installed at the castle? im wondering how long she was there for. 9 months is a..."I don't think Dorne was livid about Rhaegar & Lyanna, in that they are fairly open minded when it comes to relationships. When Ned killed Arthur Dayne, he went to Starfall in Dorne to return the sword 'Dawn' to the Dayne family. There is a deeper mystery here concerning Ashara Dayne who was lady in waiting to Elia Martell. Ashara 'supposedly' committed suicide by jumping to her death, but her body was never found.....I hope we learn more about this in Winds of Winter......
Dorne is livid with Robert & the Lannisters, most especially Tywin for the murder of Elia Martell & her small children. This is why Oberyn hates Tywin Lannister & Gregor Clegane.
This was also the only time Ned & Robert argued & it almost broke their friendship, he disagreed with the killing of women and children. Ned then left Kings Landing & headed to Dorne to find his sister, Lyanna.
I believe Doran Martell is now making a terrible mistake in continuing his vendetta with the Lannisters, as the man who orchestrated the death of his sister is now dead, killed by his son, Tyrion Lannister......I think there is a great tragedy ahead for Dorne....
I hope this helps too, Dantezgirl......lets hope that GRRM will be finished with Winds, soon.
It does Rebecca thank you. This is my second time reading the novels and I still struggle with it at times. No doubt ill be back with more Qs
Okay so Lysa sends her dire message. And one stark rides of with them any way and another wants to follow to find proof? Im wondering what exactly Cat planned to do in kings landing. Who she plans to speak to etc. It just seems odd. It was only LF way laying her that got her anywhere. So what did she plan to do? She cant go to the capital waving a dagger about asking if a lannister what? owns it, misses it?
Cat mentioned she thinks Varys has some form of magic. Its more than just spys. He knows more than he should. What do folk think? Is Varys touched by magic?
Cat did what she planned to do in KL; warn Ned about the plot to kill bran. She messed up when she arrested Tyrion. Which was part of Litttlefinger's littlefingering.
Unless Varys' abhorrence to magic is a ruse it's highly unlikely he uses magic in anyway. Cat's not exactly familiar with magic or even spycraft so she is likely unable to fully understand how varys gets his information. Most people in the 7kingdoms dont trust or like Varys. Which leads to a lot of random rumors.
Ned is in KL to uncover the lannister plot. hes miles away from WF. What more can he do for Bran. Run home and guard him. Hes been tied down by robert as well. its odd. yeah I guessed varys wasn't magical but damn be a nice twist lol goes with all that mojo at his castration
It's not about protecting Bran per se. But informing Ned that the lannisters are plotting against the Starks for an unknown reason. And after that Ned begins planning to head back to winterfell because he realizes the amount of danger his family is in at kings landing. So again, Cat did exactly what she set out to do. Her misstep was Littlefinger. Cat was doing fine until she trusted Littlefinger. Ned was bumbling along but doing OK until he trusted Littlefinger.
for the love of god im getting frustrated. Ned is in KL to find proof of stark wrong doing. Yet he denies Varys suspicions that Lannisters tried to kill Rob in the tourney. Cat has blamed Tyrion for Bran yet none of it makes any sense. Though I understand. Gahhh. Also do we know who the girl is from the Vale that robert fathered? where is she? the one he visited etc
also why is Rob even listening to Cersei. He has no love nor respect for her so why is he allowing her to dictate who he should hire. He drinks whores etc and folk dont mind. woman aren't given much any ways. so why even continue to have a queen. it was arryns idea hes dead so why not say thank you but no thank you. also rob has no love for joff. he comments that he cant leave because of joff. so im also curious as to what robs talking about here. joffs coward. lies. or as in the show odd perversions
Dantezgirl wrote: "for the love of god im getting frustrated. Ned is in KL to find proof of stark wrong doing. Yet he denies Varys suspicions that Lannisters tried to kill Rob in the tourney. Cat has blamed Tyrion fo..."The girl in the Vale is Mya Stone. She was Catelyn's guide up the mountain into the Eyrie.
Dantezgirl wrote: "also why is Rob even listening to Cersei. He has no love nor respect for her so why is he allowing her to dictate who he should hire. He drinks whores etc and folk dont mind. woman aren't given muc..."Because he knows Joffrey is not fit to be king. He seems to feel some guilt about the sort of ruler his son will be after he is gone; certain doom for Westeros
In addition, I believe Robert listens to ceresi cause he's cautious of upsetting Tywin. I imagine his relationship with tywin wouldn't be great. And his drinking and whoring probably has as much to do with upsetting Tywin as disrespecting Ceresi.
Can someone explain the fight between Ned and the Kings Guard. Ned said they weren't at the Trident guarding Rhaegar. They weren't in KL guarding Aerys. All Dane said was . "They were far away" abd Jamie was no true brother. So . . was it a case of stay away so aerys could be killed? and the guard not implicated? If not, why were they not there? Same with Rhaegar. I understand he was well liked. Why not protect him? or did he send them to protect Lyanna and the babe?
The story goes Rhaegar directed them to stay there with lyanna. Their presence is to indicate the importance placed on lyanna and the babe. But yes, they should have been in Kings landing. It was highly irregular that they were not guarding the king and heirs.
You should also check out the forums at westeros.org or Reddit. There's a huge repository of questions and answers like the ones you've been posing. And excellent analysis regarding motivations for the events.
Dantezgirl wrote: "Can someone explain the fight between Ned and the Kings Guard. Ned said they weren't at the Trident guarding Rhaegar. They weren't in KL guarding Aerys. All Dane said was . "They were far away" abd..."I think the author included this into the story to show the importance of Jon's birth, & it didn't include just Ser Arthur Dayne, the most telling one is Ser Gerold Hightower who was Lord Commander, he was also present at the Tower of Joy.
We do read in a Jaime chapter that Rhaegar told him upon his return to Kings Landing after his fight at the Trident, there would be 'changes made'....we don't know what these changes are as Robert Baratheon killed Rhaegar at the Trident.....But I do wonder if there was a rupture within the Kingsguard in the knowledge that their King was totally insane & that perhaps Rhaegar was going to replace Aerys as either the new King or Prince Regent & perhaps Rhaegar would have placed his father under house arrest due to his mental instability.
We will never know, unless GRRM reveals more in the WInds of Winter.....and Yes as JaphiaHart says, do check out Reddit, they come up with some really interesting theories......
im actually on westeros lol but plain forgot. been years since I looked there. Why is the commander such a tell? aside the obvious im also annoyed Rhaegar would protect Lyanna over the Martels. There was no one there really
Dantezgirl wrote: "im actually on westeros lol but plain forgot. been years since I looked there. Why is the commander such a tell? aside the obvious im also annoyed Rhaegar would protect Lyanna over the Martels. T..."
Because Gerold Hightower was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard & his place was either at the Kings side or Prince Rhaegar's side, but instead he is at the Tower of Joy, protecting Lyanna and her baby. This is why Ned asks them why they were not protecting their King & why they were not at Rhaegar's side ie: 'I looked for you at the Trident, but you were not there."....They should have been there. There only task is to protect the King & the heir to the Iron Throne....This is real proof of how important Jon's birth was.....but I hope that in Winds we may get more exploration as to why Gerold Hightower was not at the Kings side, where he should have been.....
Rhaegar thought that he would be victorious over Robert Baratheon, therefore his wife Elia and their children in his mind were in a safe place....But it is puzzling that Rhaegar seemed not to have wondered what would happen if things went wrong...As you said, he left them unprotected.....and again I hope we get more answers in Winds of Winter......
Another thing to point is that according to the book Ser Arthur was one of or the closest friend to Rhaegar. He entrusted him to watch over Lyanna. Add the fact that Ser Arthur was the greatest swordsman at the time and possibly of all time; his placement there is highly significant. Ser Oswell Whent's presence is interesting too. Though not a lot is known about Ser Oswell, the famous Tourney of Harrenhall where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna was orchestrated by Ser Oswell's brother. Rumor has it that the Tourney's true purpose was to gather supporters to Rhaegar's cause of over throwing his father.
The above two if I'm correct were initially at the Tower of Joy, Ser Gerold was not. Ser Gerold was sent by King Aerys to find Rhaegar, and once he found him, Rhaegar told him to stay, fully knowing what was happening in the rest of the kingdom. To me that's the most important thing about Ser Gerold's presence.
Almost half of the KG were at the Tower of Joy when there were King Aerys, Rhaegar, Elia + kids, and Rhaella + her kids to guard, seems a bit odd... I definitely agree with you Rebecca that Rhaegar thought he would win, plus Elia was in Kings Landing protected by the city watch and fortifications. Rhaella + kids were at Dragonstone which is actually hard to get to seeing that it is located on an island off of Westeros.
To protect Lyanna from who? Ned? Was he going to kill her brother run up the tower and say 'good news Lyanna, I've just killed your brother and his friends.' None of this makes much sense, with the doomed love story.
Thomas wrote: "Another thing to point is that according to the book Ser Arthur was one of or the closest friend to Rhaegar. He entrusted him to watch over Lyanna. Add the fact that Ser Arthur was the greatest swo..."You were right about Gerold Hightower and it is interesting that Dayne the best fighter in Westeros stayed at the TOJ to protect baby Jon & even stranger that Hightower did not return to Kings Landing.
I do wonder if Rhaegar had something on his person that proved how important Jon would become to the entire Seven Kingdoms?...I really hope we get an answer in Winds, because I'd hate to have to wait another 15 years for ADOS to be released.
And also the mad King insisted that Elia & children stay at KL to ensure that Dorne woud stay loyal to the crown....This decision cost them their lives.....
There are rumours now that in Season 7 we might get the Tourney of Harrenhal, I hope so, because another mysterious person is Howland Reed.....
Alex: Was it Lyanna that needed protecting? Or was it baby Jon? Or perhaps both. What if both had lived. I think there is the possibility that someone would have asked for her death. But this also shows the fallacy that Jaime speaks of when he talks about oaths. Was there a need to fight? Probably not. But they had orders to let no one inside the Tower. Bit of a crackpot theory but I don't believe Ned won that fight. I don't think Ser Arthur died or the other two.....GRRM at his finest commenting on the woes of war. Ive heard those rumors too Rebecca. I hope we get more about Lord Reed. I want to meet him, he could shed so much light on a lot of the mystery behind ASOIAF.
