A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
Crackpottery - This is where we just throw it all out there.
No that didn't go down like that between Shae and Tyrion in the books.No one ever finds out about them until he is arrested and she testifies against him.
She's a dumb beezy in the books. They've just been playing to her for the show for god only knows why.
When he kills her when she is in bed with his father in a Storm of Swords...would that count?
LOL, I don't think that's what she meant.I think she means before she humiliates him in front of everyone and then hooks up with his dad.
:D
Kati wrote: "I thought the snow building scene was creepy! I just can't stop seeing LF as a manipulative pedo with Sansa."Agreed!
Minerva wrote: "Ok, I may be a bit naive, but I just want Sansa to have the happy ending she has been wishing for, and you have to agree that she has deserved it."I hope that once Jon realises that he is a Targaryen and when all is said and done...I'd love him to marry Sansa thereby uniting the North and South....Kind of like Princess Elizabeth Plantagenet married Henry Tudor which united England; ending the War of the Roses.
Sansa and Jon? But that's incest, I'm hoping that the Hound isn't dead and he and Sansa Marry after he does something heroic :)
What about Sansa and Aegon? They are about the the same age, and their marriage would unite North and South, ice and fire, dragons and direwolves.
Rebecca wrote: "Minerva wrote: "Ok, I may be a bit naive, but I just want Sansa to have the happy ending she has been wishing for, and you have to agree that she has deserved it."I hope that once Jon realises th..."
Jon is not Neds son; therefore he is not Sansa's brother. They are cousins. It's not ideal, but I do think Sansa would make a good queen-so long as she doesn't have to make big decisions;)...It would also be a wonderful revenge if a Stark ends up on the Throne and Sansa would bring the North with her.
But it is Westeros where no-one is safe.....
Sansa isn't strong enough to unite a country - Direwolves and Dragon if Jon is Lyana and Reaegar *soz spelling it's been a while* son then he is already fire and ice direwolf and dragon.....HOLD THE PHONE what if Jon can warg a DRAGON omfg, I need to lie down!!!!
oooh it's still insest Rebecca, grew up together, so just WRONG! Lol also I'm still having them as first cousins as he is too much Stark/like Arya/like Ned not to be. ooooooh this thread has gotten me all excited AGAIN. Book book WHERES the book? :D
LOL@book.....There are so many...It is a case of which book? Hahaha!I am not thinking from our own world view point where it is wrong...But I'm not sure if that is the case in Westeros?
I do want a happy ending for Sansa, even though the book version sometimes has me gritting my teeth...Sophie Turner's portrayal of her is so good that I long for her to finally get her happy ending......
There is also a theory that there is a Winterfell dragon. I'm not too sure about that....but I'm pretty sure that there is something in Lyanna's tomb that will prove Jon's real identity.
Amber wrote: "LOL, I don't think that's what she meant.I think she means before she humiliates him in front of everyone and then hooks up with his dad.
:D"
Amber wrote: "LOL, I don't think that's what she meant.
I think she means before she humiliates him in front of everyone and then hooks up with his dad.
:D"
got it :)
Sansa has never been a fan of Jon since he's a bastard. I doubt she'd be that happy to be married to him even if he is a targaryen bastard. Even if she could return to winterfell. I want Sansa to have a *happy* ending (as defined by Sansa). Sadly I can't think of a single noble well landed knight in the 7 kingdoms right now. Harold would probably be the best choice honestly. I think if he isn't what she wants she'll kill him instead of dealing with him. That's what she's learning from LF. How to get what she wants.
Amber wrote: "No that didn't go down like that between Shae and Tyrion in the books.No one ever finds out about them until he is arrested and she testifies against him.
She's a dumb beezy in the books. They'v..."
Yes thought it was like that.
Rebecca wrote: "Minerva wrote: "Ok, I may be a bit naive, but I just want Sansa to have the happy ending she has been wishing for, and you have to agree that she has deserved it."I hope that once Jon realises th..."
I do think he's half Targaryan but if his mother is Ned's sister then that would still make them cousins. Would Sansa be comfortable marrying her cousin and the man she's been raised to think of as a brother. There are too many Targaryan heir's coming out of the woodwork. A more plausible match for Daenerys would be her marrying Jon snow and them ruling together after Ser Jorah has died a glorious death defending the woman he loves and earning her forgiveness.
JaphiaHart wrote: "Sansa has never been a fan of Jon since he's a bastard. I doubt she'd be that happy to be married to him even if he is a targaryen bastard. Even if she could return to winterfell. I want Sansa to ..."It was Catlyn who had issues with Jon's illegitimacy, i'm not sure Sansa feels the same.
Sansa liked Jon the least of all his siblings. They hardly spoke. I believe she even thinks of him just a bastard in one of her POV chapters.
@Lyndsey-ellen. Daenerys is Jon's Aunt--I don't think that works. It is a shame because I like both of them, but only one will claim the Throne(or so we think-one never knows with GRRM).Sansa hardly got to know Jon, she was in sympathy with her mother(then)but I think she softens towards him later(in the books).
Daenerys MAY be his aunt. It's all speculation on our part on that point. And even if it's true, sibling marriage would not be an issue for her as a Targaryan especially as they will still be close in age.And yes only one could claim the iron throne currently but there's nothing to say a joint monarchy is out of the question.
The Hand of R'hllorCrackpottery indeed. I first got this idea when Victarion is healed by the red priest Moqorro. Also, Jon Snow’s flexing of his burnt hand is mentioned ad nauseum in Dance of Dragons. There are several characters that seem to have trouble with their weapon hands in ASoIF. Perhaps this is how R'hllor selects his army. Below are five warriors that all suffer from wounded hands.
Could each be a finger on the Hand of R’hllor?
Jon Snow - Hand burned. when killing a white walker to protect Lord Mormont. Wears a black glove and constantly flexes it.
Jamie Lannister - Lost the same hand he used to push bran from the Winterfell high tower. Now wears a false golden hand.
Sandor Clegane "The Hound" - Hand burned in a battle with Baric Dondarion
“The fight ends with Clegane’s shield destroyed and his left arm in flames, but the Hound cuts Dondarrion from shoulder to breastbone. Sandor is screaming in pain and fear from the hideous burn to his arm”
Jon Connington "Griff" - Hand infected with grayscale when he saved Tyrion. Covers hand with a black glove.
“Jon is plagued by guilt over the Battle of the Bells and hears the tolling of the bells every time he closes his eyes. He knows that with greyscale death is coming for him, but hopes to live just a few more years to end the usurper's line and restore Aegon VI to the Iron Throne.”
Victarion Greyjoy - Hand burned and healed by the red priest Moqorro.
“Moqorro tells to Victarion he knows of the ironborn quest to seek the dragon queen and that Victarion will die from his wounded hand without Moqorro's help.”
Tanner wrote: "The Hand of R'hllorCrackpottery indeed. I first got this idea when Victarion is healed by the red priest Moqorro. Also, Jon Snow’s flexing of his burnt hand is mentioned ad nauseum in Dance of Dr..."
Interesting. Too often to be a coincidence but can't see how GRRM would join all those character threads together.
Lyndsey-ellen wrote: "Tanner wrote: "The Hand of R'hllorCrackpottery indeed. I first got this idea when Victarion is healed by the red priest Moqorro. Also, Jon Snow’s flexing of his burnt hand is mentioned ad nauseum..."
I consider each warrior a chess piece in The Lord of Darkness and The Lord of Light's game. They can be manipulated from beyond.
I love the breadth of Martin's historic knowledge. Joffrey is based on Caligula, as are many others based of the other characters, but Tyrion, he is a work of genius based on no one ... other than an understanding of a little man, the exceptional mind is so well told.
My parents are watching the show as is my husband, I was trying to explain what was happening as (IMHO) some bits are lost and I got all over excited and did a little jig whilst almost shouting "......so therefore Jon Snow could BE fire and ICE, Targ and Stark, like the books ICE AND FIRE'. They just looked bemused ;)
Tanner wrote: "The Hand of R'hllorCrackpottery indeed. I first got this idea when Victarion is healed by the red priest Moqorro. Also, Jon Snow’s flexing of his burnt hand is mentioned ad nauseum in Dance of Dr..."
And don't forget Davos "Shorthand" Seaworth; Tyrion, former Hand of the king; Jacelyn "Ironhand" Bywater; and of course, Littlefinger ;-)
Seriously, those books are too obsessed with hands
Tanner wrote: "The Hand of R'hllorCrackpottery indeed. I first got this idea when Victarion is healed by the red priest Moqorro. Also, Jon Snow’s flexing of his burnt hand is mentioned ad nauseum in Dance of Dr..."
You got that hands down! LOL.....I know bad bad pun. I couldn't resist heehee!
A crazy theory I had this week was that Septa Lemore is Lyanna, who had twins, a Stark looking one (Jon) and a Targaryen looking one (Aegon). She went away to look after the one son who might be killed while the other was sent with Ned to be brought up a Stark. I thought then Jon could meet his mother and have a brother and perhaps have to choose between his real brother and Bran etc. Stupid idea I know.
James wrote: "I love the breadth of Martin's historic knowledge. Joffrey is based on Caligula, as are many others based of the other characters, but Tyrion, he is a work of genius based on no one ... other than..."that's it! Sometimes, while I'm reading the books I think of our own Middle Ages and wonder when/where/what may lead Martin's world to its own renaissance-iluminism-French revolution. In other words, what technologies and new thinking can lead them to their "XXI century" (or any age alike ours). I know it's crazy, but it really got me thinking about these things..
Btw, James, other day I was reading Os Lusíadas (The Lusiads) and realized that the Titan of Braavos is exactly like Colossus of Rhodes, a great statue of Helios which was erected in Rhodes, Greece.
Maira wrote: "Btw, James, other day I was reading Os Lusíadas (The Lusiads) and realized that the Titan of Braavos is exactly like Colossus of Rhodes, a great statue of Helios which was erected in Rhodes, Greece."I realized that as soon as I read the first description of the Titan. The colossus of Rhodes was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world and the Titan of Braavos is clearly a tribute to it.
Alex wrote: "A crazy theory I had this week was that Septa Lemore is Lyanna, who had twins, a Stark looking one (Jon) and a Targaryen looking one (Aegon). She went away to look after the one son who might be ki..."Actually that would make a lot of sense. Maybe the promise Ned made to Lyanna wasn't just to raise Jon but to tell everyone that she was dead and buried in Winterfell. But I don't know, Ned seemed pretty sure that his sister was dead in his own POV chapters, though of course there couldn't be any hint so soon in the story or it would be far too obvious.
And if Lemore was Lyanna and she had run away to protect her son, why would she let him believe he was Aegon VI?
i have a question... it's been some time since i read the last book but didn't melisandre say something about the dark side beeing the three eyed crow? so does that mean at some point of the future books bran will be the bad guy??maybe i got it all confused haha so please tell me what you remember about that :)
Since Milisandre is not the best prophet, I pretty much ignore her. There is the touch of charlatan in her.
Tanja wrote: "i have a question... it's been some time since i read the last book but didn't melisandre say something about the dark side beeing the three eyed crow? so does that mean at some point of the future..."Like Stephen said, she isn't the best prophet. She also will say whatever is needed to sway people to her religion/school of thought. I, honestly, take everything she says with a grain of salt.
However as far as prophecies go...There is always about 40 different ways to define it.
Tanja wrote: "i have a question... it's been some time since i read the last book but didn't melisandre say something about the dark side beeing the three eyed crow? so does that mean at some point of the future..."I don't think it's only about how inaccurate Melisandre is as a prophet. This subject involves her point of view as well, as everything seems to do in this story that is, precisely, told from different points of view.
The thing about the three eyed raven is that, as far as I understand it, he (or it) is someone with a deep conection to the old gods. I believe Bran is called to him to be, perhaps, his successor. That's why he's learning to connect with the trees and see through them, to the past... maybe to the future?
The point is Melisandre had the statues of the Seven burned at Dragonstone. To her, there are only two gods: the Lord of Light R'hllor, and the Other. And every other god is a fake one, or a manifestation of the Other. And how can she resist accusing the old gods of the North as evil and manifestations of the Other, when she can simply point to the white walkers (or "others") and say that they came from the same source, the eternal enemy of her revered Lord of Light.
Almost done with DWD and have discovered how strong the connection is between the Starks and their direwolves. Each wolf mirrors its owners personality, as well as, provides interesting wells to foretell things. Examples:A.Sansa has lost Lady and is rather lost. She is not only separated from her wolf but her "pack"/family as well. She has no compass to point in her in a trusting directions. She just goes where the wind blows her.
B.Araya is predicted to become a murderous assassin. If the wolf we keep hearing about is Nymeria, then one can assume this is most likely where her road will lead her.
There are more but just throwing the obvious things out first.
Can the same be true/understood for Danerys and her dragons?
(view spoiler)
I feel like there is a much deeper connection than the obvious...She is their mother, a Targaryen, etc etc. I would have to read some parts again to see it, but I haven't come across anything that shows her mirroring their personality. However, one could argue that starting in the epic pit scene in DWD.
Jessica wrote: "Almost done with DWD and have discovered how strong the connection is between the Starks and their direwolves. Each wolf mirrors its owners personality, as well as, provides interesting wells to fo..."I believe Drogon represents a side of Daenerys, but not herself as a whole. He is the valyrian part of Dany, the conqueror, the destroyer, the monster that just burns everything with fire and blood. The side that she let out on Astapor.
There is other side of Dany: the breaker of chains, the liberator of slaves, Mhysa. The side of her that took over in Meereen. Daenerys doesn't have greys. She either burns and crucifies her enemies and everything in her way, as a dragon, or she does everything that has to be done in the name of peace. She spent most of the last book pursuing peace (and maybe that's why a lot of people find that part "boring" or don't understand her actions).
But sometimes we forget that Dany is still little more than a child, despite everything she's been through. She didn't have experience in war OR peace. She does now. She has been to both extremes and has learned. I believe from now, we'll start seeing a more greyish side of her. I don't wanna say too much about the end of ADWD since you haven't read it yet, Jessica, but you'll see Daenerys goes through some rough moments that make her question what she's been doing and what she'll do now. I think it's a really good epilogue for Daenerys plot... and a hell of a cliffhanger!
@Leandro--Everything in ADWD ends in a cliff hanger! It really is a case of no-one is safe and just who will survive....I'll say no more to avoid spoilers.
Rebecca wrote: "@Leandro--Everything in ADWD ends in a cliff hanger! It really is a case of no-one is safe and just who will survive....I'll say no more to avoid spoilers."And that's why I'm so fucking impatient for the release of The Winds of Winter... Go write, George, damn it!
Leandro wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "@Leandro--Everything in ADWD ends in a cliff hanger! It really is a case of no-one is safe and just who will survive....I'll say no more to avoid spoilers."And that's why I'm so f..."
Ditto!
All of the above. He is writing some sort of anthology(of-course I will buy it! Damn it!). He writes at least one episode of GOT each Season(of-course I watch it! Damn it!). He wrote a short story for Dangerous Woman(of-course I bought that one too! Damn it!).
Finish Winds of Winter, George before I go broke! Damnn it! LOL
I really like the theory of The Hand of R'hllor being 5 different people but there seem to be too many candidates. What may be the case is that they don't just need to have injured a hand, but it needs to be from burning. If so that means we only have 3 of the 5 currently:Jon Snow
Sandor Clegane
Victarion Greyjoy
Notably these all seem to be good characters (debatable for victarion) and are burnt in different areas (the wall, midlands on way to Slaver's bay). I think that we might get two more burnt in different regions, possibly Braavos and Dorne, which would suggest Arya and a good martell/sand having a burn to the hand
Spoilers from the next book included ...Okay so my crackpot theories:
The others, are actually a form of defense created by the Starks. Or in some way, the Others are tied to the Starks.
"Winter is coming", is a threat, not a warning. Just like Baratheon's is "Ours is the Fury!" House Martell "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken", and House Greyjoy, "We do not sow".
So to me the books have always seemed to be centered on Ice and Fire. Every theory I've read has said something silly like, R+L=J and his is the song of ice and fire. I do believe the whole R+L=J is true, but I think it's less important than what people make it. John Snow was raised a Stark, he is a Stark, he will always be a Stark. The whole Targaryen side may add an extra aspect to it, but i'm not so sure how important it will be. So I have taken A Song of Ice and Fire to actually be, A Song, About a War, Between Ice and Fire. A song can be about anything, it doesn't mean it has to be a combination of the two ... Heres some examples of what I mean. Melisandre says theres 2 gods.
R'hollor, also known as Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, and the God of Flame and Shadow, he is the god of light, fire, and life. Then theres The Great Other, the god of darkness, cold, and death, IN THE FAITH OF R'HOLLOR. I see this more as, The God of Ice, and the God of Fire, and I see it as Jon Vs. Dany in the end, not all these Dany/Jon theories. Dany has dragons, handles heat well, and seems all around linked to fire. Jon handles cold well, and everything around him seems to lead to ice. I mean come on, the Starks are tied to winter, there whole motto is "Winter is Coming".
Now also remember that Robb Stark wrote what you could call a will, legitimizing Jon Snow, and naming him his heir. So technically Jon Snow, is actually King Jon Stark, King of the North. The only thing stopping this from happening is his vows to the Nights Watch, and the letter needs to be found. Now at the moment, Jon is possibly dead. Jon's death and rebirth, should release him from his vows to the nights watch.
So now I'll move on to the next aspect of my theory, which is the resurrection of Jon Snow. I have 3 possible scenarios.
1) Melisandre brings him back.
2) In the Theon chapter excerpt from Winds of Winter, Stannis has Theon, the ravens in the room are screaming "the tree, the tree", and "Theon" throughout the chapter, and Theon's sister tells Stannis to take Theons head in front of the weirwood, and sacrifice him to the old gods just like Ned Stark would have. I think Bran is influencing all the events happening in that room, what are the chances that Theon's sacrifice (remember he has kings blood which is suppose to hold great power) in front of the weirwood would be a possible path to resurrection for Jon?
3) Earlier I suggested the Starks were influencing The Others. Maybe the wall was ment to hide a secret, and not keep The Others in, maybe they can actually cross the wall. Maybe there not EVIL like everyone seems to think. I mean doesn't anyone else find it weird that while the wall was being built, the Free Men, and the Children of the Forest, who were fighting The Others, locked themselves in with the threat? So what's the chance The Others show up and bring Jon Snow back?
Okay so here's a couple things I think will be important to the story.
There's cold crypts below Winterfel full of Kings of Winter, and past Lords Of The North from the last 8000 years, all buried with there weapons. Are we seeing a possible larger army for The Others?
Theres Tunnels below the wall, that anyone who enters seems to get lost, and supposedly they run into everyone else that got lost. WTF is going on down there?
So possible scenarios for Jon Snow's future.
1) The others bring back Jon Snow.
2) Theon's death in front of a Weirwood brings back Jon Snow..
In both scenarios he ends up King of Winter, takes control of The Others, Mammoths, Giants, and Wildlings, leads a war against Fire, and learns the Starks secrets, and his parentage ...
Oh I also did a little math, If we say there is 1.5 lords, or kings per 100 years in winterfel, then we can conclude there's about 120 in the crypts over 8000 years. I'm guessing there's more like 200, because a lot of them would have died young.
I've also considered that The Others might not be wholly evil. It would be a good twist on the story. You've put a lot of thought into the theory and it makes a lot of sense. Jon Snow is definitely coming back someway, somehow.
Lannister's kind have a bad history with her at that point.
Plus she is like 14 and I can totally see a 14 year old girl being freaked out by all his deformities. She was freaked by the Hounds burns.