Sully ’s Comments (group member since Mar 23, 2015)

Sully ’s comments from the Nothing But Reading Challenges group.

Emily wrote: "I thought Tally's reaction to the David/Zane situation was fairly well done. She seemed realistically conflicted. (view spoiler)"

(view spoiler)[I think Zane, at that point, is just relieved to be alive lol. If I found out that I had brain eating nanos in my head, yes you are going to want the girl to pick you, but it's not the end of the world if she doesn't. I'd like to think (since I definitely liked Zane more - he's probably my favorite character so far) that he wanted to respect her decision, no matter what it was, because he respects her. (hide spoiler)]

To me, Shay is just this means to move plot along (I agree with you 100%!). She's never really developed as a character, and it's hard to get a read on her, as she's always changing to suit the mood of the author for what he wants to use her as a tool for. I completely agree it makes her seem schizophrenic. And I do have a hard time empathizing with Shay sometimes, because it never seems like she knows what she wants or what she believes in!


Do you have any interest in doing a buddy read of Specials?

Emily wrote: "I thought the machine shop/hot air balloon scenes was a good sequence. Although one thing that bothered me: Wouldn't pouring champagne on a fire fuel it, not put it out, since champagne is alcohol?."

Maybe if it was low, low, low proof champagne the water would outwork the alcohol and put it out (now I kind of want to test this at home, MythBusters style!). But given the fact that alcohol is one of the tools they use to help cloud Pretties' minds and judgments, they probably aren't using watered down champagne. So that's a good point.


Emily wrote: "It seems clear that (view spoiler) And yet there is no mention of it at all, which seems a cop out to me on an important aspect of a relationship, of growing up, etc. I'm not saying it should have taken over the book, but in my opinion, it also shouldn't have been avoided. And I'm curious if it made them "bubbly" or "pretty-headed" ;)"

Yeah, back when this book was written/published (a decade ago, I can't believe it. I'm getting old!), I think young adult fiction (view spoiler)[shied away more from explicit sexual content in favor of more implicit. Although, at that time I was also what, 15/16, so it might have just been what I happened to be reading at that stage in my life lol. But I would think that sex would make you more bubbly (I hate this word now)/clearheaded. It raises your heartbeat and pumps up the adrenaline, which is basically the same thing that is happening when they do all the tricks that help clear the Pretty haze (hide spoiler)].


Emily wrote: "To what degree do you think beauty and appearance play a role in how we interact with others? Obviously, it plays a large role in who we want to date, and there are evolutionary reasons why we are sexually attracted to some people more than others. But do you think it goes beyond that? Do we treat beautiful people as almost godlike?"

I think it plays a large role, more than it should. I remember a study we read about in psychology class way back when that showed that even babies are prewired to think this way. They gravitated towards pictures of faces/people with more symmetry in their faces, and for certain specific features/characteristics in a face. Isn't that crazy? That's always blown my mind. And yes, I think it goes beyond that as well. Look at our entertainment industry (at least here in the States). They are some of the highest grossing paid professionals, and the vast majority of them are "beautiful" - a lot of time post-surgery wise (and a lot of the others, as Westerfeld humorously pointed out in Uglies, are comedians). A lot of people are literally OBSESSED with following these peoples every moves, be it through reality TV, magazines/tabloids, and social media galore. I doubt otherwise that the Kardashians would ever have become famous.

(view spoiler)[The only thing I can think about for the tribe is yeah, that they never went into the cities and recivilized after the collapse of society once fuel ran out. The way they have a different language/dialect seemed to indicate that for me. But the whole thing was just kind of weird in my opinion. And if that was the case, then shouldn't they remember a time before the more advanced city folks came by and put up the boundaries? It's not like we're talking about lower cognitive functioning animals in a zoo here. (hide spoiler)]

That is definitely a great quote! I think it's a bit of social commentary on today's society as well, where we are sitting at the TV or computer, worshipping a bunch of bogus celebrities. I would much rather worship a book! =)

Finished/The End

What did you think about the conservation area part? It seemed a little weird to me and out of place in the plot/flow of the story. I can kind of see the use behind it, but it just didn't feel all the way thought out. For example, (view spoiler)[when the Specials arrive with the Doctor, they are bringing hovercameras to help study and observe Andrew and his clan. But if that's the case, how come they hadn't noticed Tally's arrival or her time there? That seemed like a bit of a plot hole to me (hide spoiler)]

I loved the irony in Tally's comment (view spoiler)[that Zane would stay in the Rusty Ruins and wait for her. That he wouldn't leave, knowing she would be following, no matter what. And yet, she had done the exact opposite to Shay when leaving New Pretty Town. It definitely shows that Tally is still self centered and cares more about her relationships with love interests than with friends (granted, Shay hadn't been the best of a friend as of late, but still). (hide spoiler)]

How do you think the situation between David/Zane/Tally was handled? (view spoiler)[A bit surprisingly, I liked it. I thought a bit of the dialogue during the "break up" was childish, but I liked the thought process behind the decision and why Tally chose Zane over David. (hide spoiler)]

And how about Zane's bombshell about (view spoiler)[the first time he met the Specials? I thought it was a little weird that he basically had the same experience as Tally, but they used a completely different tactic on him. Instead of threatening to keep him Ugly if he didn't head out and find the location of the New Smoke for them, they threaten to make him Special? That seemed odd to me. If they were so desperate to find the Smoke, why weren't they using any means possible to do so? And the ending felt repetitive, as if we were pretty much reading the same ending as Uglies - escape out into the Smoke, have drama with David, get caught by a tracker, have drama with Shay, undergo more surgery, etc etc etc. (hide spoiler)]

Overall, I definitely enjoyed Uglies better. I think Pretties is still okay, and it had a bit of action and even some suspense in it, but it felt a bit dragged out at points, and even though a lot of the story came together as it went, there were still noticeable plot holes as well (and repetition from the first novel).

Up to Part III (pg 237)

Emily wrote: "Well, what Dr. Cable wanted was certainly enlightening in some ways! [spoilers removed]"

It certainly wasn't what I was expecting either! I was thinking something along the lines of the same old, same old - blackmail, etc. (view spoiler)[But it does make complete sense that they would pick the people who enforce the laws from the people who used to break them. Allows them a better knowledge of how the troublemakers think and act. I'm thinking being a Special is probably like being a doctor, where they remove the legion from the brain so they think straight. But you have a great point about finding the ones that will actually enforce the laws versus the ones who have authority issues. Makes it kind of interesting why they would approach Tally, when she is definitely know to have issues with fighting the system (hide spoiler)]

I think Shay is both right and just a tad bit wrong. As Zane points out, they didn't exactly have time to stop and ponder over it with the Specials on their heels. That being said, I agree with Shay. Tally is selfish, though I think she has grown leaps and bounds since the beginning of the series. But she does seem to get absorbed in whatever relationship is currently the most important to her. At the beginning of Uglies, she wanted to be Pretty so she could be with Peris again, just like when they were Uglies. Then, as soon as she got to the Smoke, she spent almost all her time with David. And now, the pattern continues with Zane.

What did you think of the whole machine shop/hot air balloon scenes? It definitely was a handful of action packed scenes there. (view spoiler)[And, Peris! Oh, Peris. I'm not surprised he made that decision, he always seemed to have that kind of trait to him, but it's still disappointing. Like his quote, "But you can't keep fighting the way things are forever. At some point, you have to [give up]." (hide spoiler)] It's sad, but I know a lot of people think that way about any number of different situations. That's why it takes so long for people to make progress (like the freedom for slaves, equal rights for women and minorities, etc), because people find it just easier to give up than to keep fighting, even if it's wrong. I think we'd be surprised by how many people would make the same decision he made and would want to be "pretty-minded"

Emily wrote: "I'm not sure if I love the fact that it jumped a month ahead, just because it left me slightly confused and with unanswered questions."


I think it probably jumped ahead to cut out a lot of filler of them slowly transitioning. But it definitely same as a shock to me that we'd lost all that time. (view spoiler)[And because of that time loss our knowledge of the pill's progress and outcome are limited. We know that they are feeling more clear brained, but we don't know if any of their memories returned or if that's permanent damage. I hope this will come out more in the story as we go along; they've been so focused on the trick with the ice rink and proving to the Smokies that they are cured we really haven't looked into what the pills have done for them besides lifting the haze. I would guess that they revert to their normal, "Ugly" mentality, and you would think that the memories would come back, but maybe it caused amnesia or something similar. (hide spoiler)] I'm an engineer, so I completely understand your inclination towards looking at it like a scientific study. =)

It will be interesting to see what Special Circumstances is after. (view spoiler)[Sure, they are going to want to track down the Smokies that escaped from detention, especially the threat of Maddy. But the Crims were around before Tally and Shay even showed up, so the "bubbly" characteristic of coming out of the haze of the surgery can't be a new thing they are witnessing. Granted, after the ice rink episode, they are sure to look twice now. I'm curious if they have some way to test if someone has been cured or not, because I would guess they wouldn't want to show their hand to Tally and Zane and risk telling them things they shouldn't remember unless they are sure they already recall. (hide spoiler)]

I think it was for the reasons he said, but I think he's hiding the fact that (view spoiler)[he probably feels a lot worse than he's let her see. I think the "no matter what happens" means that he's worried his condition is more than just the headaches, and may already be more than just the headaches, but he's been able to hide the more severe, underlying issues from Tally. My reasoning is that if she were to know how serious it is, she would feel an enormous amount of guilt for letting him take one of the pills in the first place, and he doesn't want to put that on her. But after the short conversation they had about needing to take him to the doctor, I don't think things are looking good for Zane, and I think he knows it =( (hide spoiler)]

Up to "The Dragon" pg 128

What do you think is happening to Zane? (view spoiler)[Do you think that Tally got the luck of the draw and got the pill that worked, or that she might start getting headaches/side effects as well that just haven't hit her yet, or do you think the pills simply reacted in different ways to Zane and Tally? (hide spoiler)]

I picked a great spot to stop for the night! (view spoiler)[What do you think the return of Dr. Cable means? It definitely isn't a good sign. I don't think Tally and Zane have been caught with the pills, but Special Circumstances obviously is catching on to their abnormal "Pretty" behavior. The interface bracelets they are stuck with certainly make their lives more difficult. (hide spoiler)]

Emily wrote: "I agree that neither of the relationships have progressed enough for us to judge who's right for Tally. Love triangles often drive me nuts, especially now that they're something every YA author seems to add, regardless of whether it adds to the story and character development (as opposed to just creating needless drama). This one makes a bit more sense to me though because Tally is in many ways a transformed person at this point and doesn't have many of her memories. She currently has different goals and desires, so liking a different boy is understandable. We will see where it goes if Tally gets cured of the lesions.
I feel like I know Zane better in some ways than we ever got to know David in Uglies. So in addition to being more interesting, I think Zane has had better character development."

I love this point! Love triangles generally drive me nuts as well as a lot of them seem so forced and unnecessary. Plus, we're usually talking about 16 - 18 year old kids, and most of them, if they were real, wouldn't even know the first thing about what love really means.

Tally's transition into a friendship/relationship with Zane seems natural here, especially with the one month gap of time we're missing where they've gotten closer and gotten to know each other while Tally hangs with the Crims. With David, his characterization was mainly his backstory, revolving around his importance to the Smoke and his parents' history. Zane actually gets some character depth, with his desire to unPretty himself (or at least his mind) and the reasoning behind it.

Emily wrote: "I was hoping for some more insight into this world and into how being "pretty" and surrounded by only other pretties would warp a person's perceptions about him/herself, others, the community, attraction and love, etc."

I think the lack of depth is part of the insight into the world (hopefully). As an Ugly, they are trained to only want to be a Pretty. And once they are a Pretty, they are programmed not to think of much at all. If the pill David & his mom & co were working on can work, maybe we can get more depth into the world as Tally cracks into the dystopian behind the world.


Emily wrote: "However, I'm not sure the effects of the lesions in this book make a lot of scientific sense or are even internally consistent in this book's world."

The only thing I could think of here is if the lesion is in a specific area of the brain, and thus certain activities or emotions can activate that area of the brain more, they could "override" the effects of the lesions. But you are definitely right, it's odd the selectiveness of what she can and can't remember.

(view spoiler)["I can't believe that Tally had completely forgotten about David. It seems like if her feelings for him were really that strong, she would have maintained SOME memory of him, like she did of the Smoke."

I think she sort of remembers him, in flashes. Like when she kisses Zane, but says his name instead. And when they were talking about when Zane first went to the Smoke, when he was getting ready to say who he met, she quickly interjected because she knew he was going to say David and it bothered her. (hide spoiler)]

I think I like Zane better too. David grew up in the Smoke, so he's never had to deal with the effects of being Pretty first hand. Zane, however, is a Pretty, and yet he loves being a Crim and trying to stay "bubbly" so he doesn't get sucked back into vapidness. I don't know who I like better with Tally; the forced love triangles in YA really bothers me sometimes, and this one seems like no exception. There wasn't much development for either one of the relationships, so it's hard to tell. But I definitely think Zane's character is more interesting right off the bat.



Emily wrote: "I'm finding the slang to be really annoying. I know the author is trying to make the world more authentic by including such details"

I think this is (hopefully) the intention of the author. Like when you are overhearing a group of people whose dialogue is so simple and repetitive it makes you roll your eyes. The Pretties are basically brainless, so I can understand the limited vocabulary. But it definitely gets annoying as you read (like Zane's rating system).


Emily wrote: "My guess would also be that it's Zane one the cover. Although that person, while attractive, isn't quite as "pretty" as I picture Zane, so maybe it is David."

The only reason I was leaning more to Zane is because he seems to have the stronger cheekbones and sharper features like Tally was talking about. But I agree with you there that he isn't my definition of "Pretty", of what I would expect for Zane.

(view spoiler)[That a good point about Az that I was thinking too! What if David's mom knew he hadn't died, but said it to get him to leave, knowing he would have stayed otherwise? Or the Specials took him and are still experimenting and none of the Smokies know he's still alive (hide spoiler)]

Up to "Note to Self" (page 88)

Who do you all think is on the cover? After reading Uglies, I thought it might be David (or maybe Peris now that Tally has gone back to get the operation). But now that I've gotten the introduction into Pretties, I'm thinking it might be Zane. Do you think we'll see David again now that Tally is Pretty?

Who did you think was "following" Tally at the party? (view spoiler)[Before we find out that it is Croy, I fully thought it was David! I was a little surprised to find out it was Croy, but at the same time it makes sense. Having David show up might have been a little overwhelming. And if they are working on the pills they were trying to get in Uglies, he probably has his hands full! (hide spoiler)]

What do you think of Zane so far? I was definitely surprised by the new character, (view spoiler)[and, apparently, new love interest for Tally (hide spoiler)], but I really like him! He's so different from what you would expect from a Pretty, which definitely adds some interest to the air brained Pretties in New Pretty Town.

What do you think in general so far?

Was anyone still interested in doing this buddy read? I'm about 80 pages in and would love to discuss it if so =)

16/08/15 404 pages

18/08/15 293 pages

19/08/15 425 pages

02/08/15 288 pages

Total: 1.410

Current Total: 1.733.450

Aly wrote: "Jessi wrote: "Aly wrote: "Can I please join? I have been wanting to read this series. I also have never done a buddy read before. I am a newbie :)"

Yes, please join us!"

Thank you!"

Looking forward to having you join us =)

Tammie wrote: "i am looking for anyone that wants to read 1 of these books





"

Hi Tammie, did you have a start date in mind for Bloodlines?

Discussion Questions for 19th of August: "Oil Plague"- End (pgs. 340-425)

20. I think many of us would agree that appearance, whether skin color, weight, or level of attractiveness, plays too great a role in our culture. However, obviously, the ugly/pretty system is not the answer to fix this problem. How would you go about reducing the importance of appearance in our society? Do you think it's even possible?

I definitely concur that people spend far too much attention, focus, and money on looks, especially in the media. Unfortunately, I don't think there's one precise way to attack the problem. I think you would have to start with the media, however. Why do the majority of actresses and actors have to be fit/"beautiful"? I'd rather watch a movie or television show that I can relate to, with "regular" people. And why are most models, and most actresses, anorexicly skinny? Unfortunately, the media and entertainment won't change unless we can convince ourselves as a society to embrace who we are without putting those perceptions out there. So while I don't think it's impossible, I don't see it happening anytime soon.


21. What did you think of this dystopia compared to others in books you have read? Do you think any element of this book could be present in the human race's future?

I really love a dystopia that has roots in social commentary. And I'm a bit bias towards this series, since it was my first introduction way back when into young adult literature. It was basically love at first sight.


22. David says that the Rusties (aka us!) lived "in a house of cards." Do you agree with that? Baring a bacteria that causes petroleum to explode, what do you think is our society's greatest weakness?

Our fundamental problem is that, as a whole, we are reactive instead of proactive. For example, most countries/people are not going to take steps to find alternative energy until they absolutely have to, because we believe the costs outweigh the benefits. Also, we are curious in nature! Neil Tyson believes the last words ever spoken by a human will be when some scientist says "I wonder what will happen if we try it this way..." And Jon Stewart thinks it will be Shark Bees, which, if you really get down to it, is about the same thing.


23. If you were in Tally's situation, would you have made the same choice to return to the city to get made pretty? How about if you were Maddy, would you have given Shay the cure against her will? And if you were David, do you think you could forgive Tally?

I'd like to think that I would, but honestly? I'm probably a little too self centered and have too much self preservation going on to take that risk that it might all go wrong. I am not a big fan of experimental drugs (at least not tested on me). So I certainly wouldn't have forced Shay to take it against her will, since I wouldn't want that done to me. And again, probably one of my worst traits, but I can hold a grudge. So I'm not sure if I would be able to forgive Tally, but I think it does speak volumes that she isn't the one that actually called Special Circumstances. So technically, she didn't do anything wrong. If I could be convinced this was the truth, I'd eventually forgive her.


24. What did you rate the book? What were your favorite and/or least favorite aspects of the book (characters, plot points, elements of the writing, etc.)?

I have to give this book a 4.5 / 5 stars for sentimental reasons. Also, there are a few plot holes where the society doesn't seem as well thought out as could be, but the characters are both flawed and develop, and the writing is good, and the plot is powerful. So it still catches my attention today, even after 3 or 4 reads.


25. That ended on quite the cliffhanger! Will you continue with the series? Do you have any predictions for the next book or the series as a whole?

I'm definitely going to finish rereading the series! I can't wait for the Pretties buddy read to start =)

Discussion Question pgs 220-339 “Heartthrob”-“Maddy and Az”


14. Tally quickly learns that nothing is thrown away in the Smoke. Everything is recycled, traded or reused by someone else. They have a history. Do you ever think about the history of used objects you’ve acquired or purchased? Are you more attracted to used or new items?

I'm more attracted to used items than new items, but mostly because I'm "Jewish" with money. Also, I love looking through Goodwill and Salvation Army to see what gems I can find through the rest of the other stuff (especially books!). I don't really every think about the history of the objects though. Although I will say, if I get a dollar bill with the code where you can track where you got it and where you've been, I definitely find that fascinating and do that every time.



15. While I am enjoying reading the book, there have been several things that don’t make logical sense to me in the story. For example, Special Circumstances basically has helicopters and GPS equipment available to them. David’s parents have escaped from the city at least 18 years ago, since David has lived all his life in the Smoke. I don’t see how it could be at all possible that they wouldn’t have found the Smoke in 18 years of searching. They weren’t hidden deep in a mountain or buried underground. They are pretty much out in the open. Did you experience other examples like this in the book, or is this just me?

This is definitely a valid point. Westerfeld points out through the characters that the Smoke is camouflaged under the cover of trees, etc. But you would think if they have the technology to do these crazy surgeries, they would have infrared technology that could seek out the heat signatures of the people and the fires. But I still enjoy the series regardless =)



16. Tally’s lying is really starting to annoy me. She continues to make excuses for all her lies. What do you think it will finally take before she quits lying? Or will she never stop?

I can understand her desire to lie. After all, all humans are wired for self preservation, and Tally knows that if she gets caught telling the truth, things are going to get ugly. But I think she's really starting to build a relationship with David, so I think the guilt is going to continue eating at her and she will eventually tell the truth to David and whoever might be left.



19. What would be the consequences of everyone having their lesions removed? Would their behavior change right away? If so, how would that affect their society?

If nothing else, their social structure would completely crumble apart.

P.S. Excellent questions!

❀Tea❀ wrote: "Do you mind using old one? I'll link you to the end so you won't have to deal with spoilers. :)
Do you have date when you are starting? "

That works for me! I'm not sure when Tammie wanted to start.

Emily wrote: "So I found the last few chapters to be quite the downers! Lots of feels"

We definitely ended up on the same page with this book! I saw Thomas's plot resolution coming pretty much all along, but still. It was such a bummer. Especially when you look at how Wolfe was handled (although I realize he gets special treatment), although really he isn't well off either.

Emily wrote: "Did anyone understand why..."
(view spoiler)[It was - I think - to keep Jess as far away from him as possible. While Wolfe might not have known the full extent of the conversation with the higher ups, and granted the position was assigned before the meeting, I think Wolfe had to know, after Jess's involvement in everything and with his family business and all that happened, that they were going to try to use him against Wolfe. Perhaps not as a full on spy, but for something. Especially after everything with Morgan too (hide spoiler)]

Discussion Questions 14th and 15th August. “Special circumstances” to “David”

8. This society is starting to show it’s real face and not the “pretty” one we’ve been shown so far. What do you think of the “Special Circumstances” bureau to use Tally by refusing to operate on her to find Shay and the other rebels/escapees? Dr. Cable gave me the creeps by the way, how about you?
Special Circumstances is definitely in a league of their own when it comes to scary. If Shay's friends had already escaped, and knew how, chances are they aren't the only ones who have left to go out to The Smoke before. So I can see why Dr. Cable would use Tally's obsession with becoming pretty as leverage to finally smoke out the group that has been helping people escape from Pretty society. It's a cheap shot/low blow for sure, but I understand their reasoning.


9. Tally is really on her own and very alone. Her parents are deserting her by not supporting her decision not to go find Shay and her so called friend Peris is even worse. This is emotional blackmail of the worst kind. Eventually she cracks and is setting out to find Shay. Can you understand why she made the decision, would you have made the same one if you were in her shoes?

If I had Tally's personality, I would definitely had made the same decision. Not only is her best friend waiting on the other side of town, but her other friend that she just made left. She's all alone, and is set as an outcast now that her birthday has come and gone and she's still ugly. If it had been be, I would have gone with Shay in the first place, no questions asked. But if I had been in Tally's shoes, I think I would have done the same. And the fact that she starts to second guess ratting out their location once she gets there speaks volumes of her character.



10. I really liked reading about Tally’s road trip to The Smoke. The clues Shay gave weren’t very easy although the first one I could get. Reading about the Spagbol was fun and I liked her resourcefulness during this trip. I feel like I got to know her a little better. What do you think of Tally now that we are halfway?

She's definitely starting to grow on me. The scene where she is working on the railroads and only notices how blistered and sore her hands are after the entire day of working is a real turning point for me. Not only did she survive the trip alone out there, but she isn't afraid to get her hands dirty and help out. The fact that she hasn't called them in either yet speaks volumes about her character growth.



11. At the end of the road Tally is found by Shay and finally we meet David. What do you think of him?

As someone born in The Smoke, David is a mysterious enigma. And even though he isn't Pretty, he apparently isn't bad to look at either. I can definitely see why Shay and now Tally seem to be drawn to him some. He has the most interesting backstory so far.



12. The Smoke seems like a good place to be people have to work for what they get and there seems to be a cohesiveness to the people. What do you think of The Smoke and its leader?

I like Tally's reaction when she first see the fires, her shock and outrage that they are burning trees. We still don't know why the Rusties civilization collapsed, but everyone seems to think this small community is crazy for living close to the land. The fact that they are trying to do it without harming their environment (ie they plant more trees for every one they cut down) has to make me believe they are being more sustainable than however the cities work in this world. Don't really have much thought on their leader yet.



13. What did you think of David and his parents’ story? I was impressed that they reversed the operation and made themselves “ugly” again.

Again, David definitely has the most interesting backstory so far. It'll be interesting to see what comes of it.

351 pages

Current Total: 1.703.598

Suzanne wrote: "Comments for 14th & 15th August pages 102 - 219

I like Tally more too - that is so much pressure for someone just barely 16. With her parents, her best friend, and Special Circumstances people al..."

I kind of expected that kind of reaction from Peris, who is a new pretty, and of course from Special Circumstances (who are definitely beyond scary), but it was kind of a shock to see her parents' reaction. Sure, they are middle pretties, but they put just as much pressure on her as everyone else, which is kindda depressing.