Sully ’s Comments (group member since Mar 23, 2015)

Sully ’s comments from the Nothing But Reading Challenges group.

Up to Chapter XXXI (pg 302)

I thought it was rather convenient to the plot that (view spoiler)[Peony would pass away right as Cinder is trying to give her the antidote. It would be less coincidental if Cinder had arrived some minutes before or after that point, but I realize Meyer wanted to go for the most dramatic timing. (hide spoiler)]

It is also interesting how Kai continues to show interest in Cinder, even after their last encounter. (view spoiler)[Cinder is so rude to him, even downright disrespectful, and yet he continues to press on. This seemed a little awkward to me. I certainly wouldn't have put up with it. But maybe he is just more infatuated than he lets on (hide spoiler)]

Kat wrote: "One of my favorite things about this series is the layers it has to it. Even though the bones lies in the original rendition, Meyer went and completely made it her own -as seen with the cyborg Cinder. "

Couldn't agree more! I noticed while reading last night that unlike the original tale, there is more than one antagonist in Cinder. Instead of just a wicked step mother that Cinder has to contend with, there is the evil moon Queen who takes wicked to a whole new level. Like the scene with the (view spoiler)[servant and the mirror on the food tray. That was intense! And really screwed up. (hide spoiler)] I also like that while Cinder may not have an honest to god fairy godmother, I kind of see the Doc in that position. (view spoiler)[After all, he is the one who agrees to give her the money in her own account, and that money is what is going to make it possible for her to get away. Also, he gives her the cure for her sister, and is trying to keep her safe from the queen (hide spoiler)]. He is certainly a dynamic character as well. You can't be sure 100% of the time if you can trust him, since it's obvious he has lied to her before, but I really like his character.

Kat wrote: "@Elise, I definitely agree with you, those were very much reactions the first time I read this book. I think that, even throughout the rest of the series, Kai gets the least bit of character of development as Meyer kind of assumes that we've gotten to know him enough in Cinder.
They're romance, I believe, is also one of the least developed in the series thus far. However, this may be purposeful, for its staying in the spirit of the original Cinderella rendition more.
I'm on p. 325"

That's a good point that I hadn't really thought about until you mentioned it, but it makes total sense. In a way, it's more character development than we ever got from the Disney version. At least here, Kai and Cinder have had a handful of interactions so far. In the Disney movie, they meet at the ball, have one dance, fall head over heels in love even though they've barely spoken, and that's that.

Up to Reunion (pg 234)

Yeah, it's funny because I loved this series when I first read it way back when, but the one thing I distinctly remember is that I was never very fond of Tally. She is one of those main characters that are hard to embrace, and that you kind of hate.

What got to me was when she was (view spoiler)[hanging onto the bottom of the helicopter by her crash bracelets. Now, I don't know what a helicopter maxes out at speed wise, and I haven't done any calculations, but I have to think at that speed/with that much force/inertia, it would have completely dislocated her shoulders, aircraft ceramic bones or not. Joints are just not meant to take that kind of stress! (hide spoiler)]

I also kind of wondered where abouts New Pretty Town was located, since it takes place in futuristic America. Thanks to the descriptions (view spoiler)[on Tally's way to the New Smoke (as well as the name of the New Smoke location), I figured out it was Cali. Kind of interesting that even in this futuristic world, they still keep building cities in places known for severe droughts/lack of water. I figure the city she grew up in is either LA or San Fran/San Jose, but definitely think Diego is San Diego. I'm thinking her original city is more likely to be San Fran/San Jose area, since she talks about the mountains changing as she heads south. Not sure how many mountains are near LA (never been there). (hide spoiler)]

What I find interesting as you talk about (view spoiler)[Diego (hide spoiler)] is that it reminds me a bit of the Capital in Hunger Games. (view spoiler)[Everyone is pushing for the latest "trend", including crazy looking hair color, styles etc. It isn't that hard to believe people would go as far as to include surgery in that as well (just look at how much surgery we do now with breast implants, nose jobs, even injecting pig fat in lips to make them look bigger). In a way, it feels like just a little more drastic version of what people already do, and might be another social commentary on behalf of the author. I never thought people would spend so much time and money on the surgeries people already get (especially celebrities who want to keep their youthful appearance). (hide spoiler)]

Not sure what to think about (view spoiler)[Fausto, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was either kidnapped but then went along with the procedure willingly or if he was in on it from the start. (hide spoiler)]

I also think (view spoiler)[Diego might be a bit of foreshadowing for what might happen in Tally's city with the nano pills flooding in by the hundreds now. With the shift from "bubblehead" to "bubbly" so quickly for thousands of people, some of that chaos you mentioned in the quote (which I also liked) is bound to show up there as well (hide spoiler)]

Up to Incompetence (pg 173)

Gods alive, Tally, make up your mind! Though I found it a little endearing that (view spoiler)[Tally insists on staying behind to watch over Zane and make sure he is ok, it again just makes the flip-flop of her personality turn again. First, she can't be with him, not until he's Special/fixed? And now, she refuses to stop being his guardian angel, watching him and protecting him from the sidelines? Have to say, it is a little annoying, this constant back and forth in her personality. (hide spoiler)] Still, I like this side of Tally better than the side we were seeing before. So, silver lining =)

It also appears the new "bubbly" is "icy". That word is definitely getting overused in this book.

Up to Chapter XVII (pg 143)

What do y'all think of Kai so far? It seems like, so far, we really haven't gotten much development into his character, even though we've had a couple chapters that have followed him as opposed to just Cinder. With his father struck by the illness, all his efforts seem to be set on trying to find the cure. For one, he obviously cares for his father. For another, he doesn't seem ready to rule.

The other glimpse we get into him is with respect to (view spoiler)[the marriage proposal (hide spoiler)]. He seems rather determined on finding a way around it, though it doesn't look like he has many schemes prepared yet.

Since this novel is loosely based off Cinderella, it's obvious there is going to be some kind of romance between Cinder and Kai. After all, she's got to get her prince in the end. But even with the few interactions they've had, they really haven't gotten to known each other at all, just as I don't feel readers have gotten to known Kai much yet either.

Up to Chapter XII (pg 104)

I've fallen a wee bit behind where I want to be in the story right now (which is actually kind of crazy because the first time I read this book I binged through it in a day). I did, however, notice another parallel/similarity to the Disney version of the story today while I was reading. In the Disney Cinderella, Cinderella passes her time by conversing with her talking pets/animals. While Cinder doesn't have rats/mice she talks to, her best friend/companion is a robot, which I kind of same as being a spin off of the same idea, but unique to the futuristic world Meyer has created for the setting.

Up to Flight (pg 128)

I fell a little bit behind today, but only by a few pages! =)

I was thinking that same thing. The whole scenes in the "Armory" were pretty intense, although I couldn't help but thinking (view spoiler)[that they do work for Special Circumstances, after all, even if they are their own division. And their whole intent behind taking Zane to the Smoke is to rat out their location. So it would seem like there would be other ways to get their hands on the equipment. And I feel like Westerfeld tried to explain it a little bit, but not to my satisfaction. (hide spoiler)] Still, I loved the social commentary we get here again, this time on the weapons we use and the technology we have developed for the sole purpose of destroying each other which, let's face it, is completely terrifying.

... and then I just read what you had under the spoiler tag, and it seems we both had the same gut reaction! It will definitely be interesting to see where it leads from here.

Brittany wrote: "Random question: I know that Winter will be released soon, but do we know if that is the end of the series, or is Meyer planning on writing more?"

I believe it is going to be the last in the series.

Jessi wrote: "Do you think there are any parallels with Shakespeare in the story? "

Hmmm, now I haven't put too much thought into that. I don't have a whole lot of experience with Shakespeare. I was forced to read a couple of plays and a handful of sonnets in high school, so now I've developed a bit of an aversion to his works unfortunately lol. But I'll keep that in mind as I go through and if I see any, I will definitely point them out =)

Up to Book Two/Chapter IX (pg 87)


Dr. Erland at one point references Cinder as Juliet, as she awakes. To me, this is a reference to Juliet in Romeo and Juliet, which brought an interesting thought to mind. Even in this alternate universe, we are over one hundred years in the future. Do you think Shakespeare's tales/plays would withstand the test of time and still be read as literature that far into the future? Do you think any fiction written in our current era will withstand the test of time?

Though we've known Cinder is a cyborg since the beginning of the novel, we find out that she is (view spoiler)[36.28% "not human" (hide spoiler)]. Do you think that actually makes her any less human? To me, it almost makes her more human, because it seems like it would always be a doubt you would have to contend with, especially with the prejudices people in this world have against cyborgs as Jessi pointed out. You would always question your own humanity, which is a human trait itself.

Up to The Cut (pg 91)

Zane. (view spoiler)[Oh, Zane. All he ever wanted was to be redeemed, and look where that got him. And yet, he doesn't even complain. Not for a second. He doesn't place blame, he doesn't point fingers. Instead, he is still working for the cause, covering for the others. I <3 him so much right now. (hide spoiler)].

And then Tally. I think she just hit a new all time low for me when she says (view spoiler)[that she can't be with him... not the way he is now. She's been superficial/shallow in the past, but that drove the stake all the way in. I was floored by how easily she says it. (hide spoiler)] This is an odd series where you have a main character who isn't very likable. She has her moments when you think she's turning around for the better, but then there are moments like this that just make her so hard to like.

What do you think about (view spoiler)[the amount of nanos they are sneaking into the city? It does seem too much for the New Smoke to be doing themselves. Do you think maybe another city is helping them out, or at least a rebel group within another city? It makes we wonder, though, why Special Circumstances hasn't noticed that hundreds of Pretties are suddenly thinking for themselves. Wouldn't that be kind of obvious? (hide spoiler)]

Jessi wrote: "Wow! Great discussion. I love reading everyone's responses! :) I know many of you like Iko as a character! She is pretty funny...I think she balances out Cinder's seriousness and sarcasm. "

I really do think they are perfect foils for each other. Cinder is very "tomboyish" and focused on work and family. Iko doesn't mind fantasizing about dancing at a ball with the prince and gushing about him in the marketplace. They balance each other well. I also like how protective of Iko Cinder is. Even though she's a robot, she still feels more like a friend/ally than just a machine =)

Up to New Pretty Town (pg 68)

Yeah, I am not a big fan of the Cutters cult either. It would have been one thing if it was the only way to get "bubbly"/"icy" and it was handled better. But Tally made herself "bubbly" by just kissing Zane a lot of the time, and but doing pranks. If the Special assignments are even more adrenaline rushing than playing pranks, why is there a need for cutting at all?

Tally's character is a bit like Shay's I think - her characterization is flexible based on where the plot wants to go. There's only so much you can change with these brain rewirings. She should have a little bit of consistency. The one thing that seems constant - for now, at least - is her feelings for Zane.

Speaking of Zane, I'm a little bit worried! =(

Jessi wrote: "Yes, I liked that she did use that nursery rhyme at the very beginning...you're right, it fits the story quite well. I'd almost forgot about that...glad you caught that! :) Did you like the little quotes from the Grimm's tale at the beginning of each part? That was also a unique little parallel...it reminded me that this story while different is essentially a retelling of Cinderella. I think the Grimm quotes also serve as a foreshadowing of sorts...since we are familiar with the original story, we know what's to come... "

I love the little blurbs at the beginning of the books in each novel in the series. The one selected here is even a little ironic, even, since we find out early on that Cinder (view spoiler)[is a cyborg and that she has a mechanical foot (hide spoiler)]. Classic point of how Meyer weaves the fairy tale elements into her story.

One parallel I've seen between Cinder and the Cinderella story is the step mother and the two step sisters. One (Pearl) she obviously doesn't get along very well with. The other (Peony), however, she seems to be a little closer. Unlike in Cinderella, where both her step sisters are dreadful to her. Her step mother is not the best character either.

For those who have read through to the end of Cinder, I also noticed in this reread (view spoiler)[that while they are in the junkyard looking for the belt thing, Meyer makes clear foreshadowing to the future of the old car. It is a "yellow-orange shade" and Iko even comments, "It looks more like a rotting pumpkin" (hide spoiler)], creating another parallel to the Cinderella story.

Emily wrote: "Up to Chapter 2- "Hunters and Prey" (pg. 22)

I agree that the physical surgery sounds completely unrealistic. Even if medical technology advanced a ton and it was possible to create a body out of man-made materials, the time, cost, and risk to the patient's life it would take to achieve something like that would be absolutely astronomical!"

What I thought of last night while trying to sleep is if they have all the crazy technology to perform these types of medical procedures, why wouldn't they just make robots? They obviously have the materials and knowledge (even on programming it appear) and they would wipe out the need to worry about any resistance to authority. For Specials, at least, this makes wayyyyyy more sense to me. Why did deal humans and all their faults when you could just have robots chasing down the Smoke? And to your point about rewiring the brain! That really doesn't make much sense either (and again, wouldn't be needed with a robot!)

I think I was able to enjoy these books a lot more a decade ago when they came out because my brain didn't think of these things then =)


Emily wrote: "This just seems so similar to the last book.
Sorry, rant over. Now, despite the fact that I find this situation absurd, I'm going to try and suspend my disbelief and go with where the book takes me. It is, after all, fiction ;)"

I do hope the plot works out where that duality comes back to Tally, similar in the last book, so that we can see some internal struggle and get some original content instead of using elements from the first two novels again.

Up to Chapter 2 (pg 22)

Westefeld does it again. We've gone through a small time lapse since the end of Pretties, and we are left with a few questions right off the bat. For example, what the heck happened to Zane??? We start off with Shay and Tally and some of the Cutters, but we are left with questions about our favorite character introduced in the last book (and perhaps our favorite character in the series).

Also, it looks like the Specials surgery does some of the same things that the Pretties operation did. (view spoiler)[It appears they have reworked some of Tally's memories again (hide spoiler)]. This might explain why they weren't so considered with reaching out to people with problems with authority. (view spoiler)[Sounds like they make you forget you had this issue and rewire your brain - sans lesion this time (hide spoiler)].

One of the issues I have off the bat is what Westerfeld reveals about the surgery. Somehow, they managed to remove all her bones and muscles and replaced them with superior, man made materials? I realize perhaps the technology will arrive somehow, someday in the future. But to me in present day, this just seems completely unrealistic.

Up to Chapter 2 (pg 17)

Right off the bat, I fall in love in Meyer's story telling. You start feeling empathetic with Cinder right away, even though it becomes obvious that others aren't quite so friendly with her (and perhaps that is why). I also like Iko right off the bat as well, even though she's a robot! For a robot, she has a funny personality that seems to mesh well with Cinder right away.

I also like how Meyer incorporates the "Ashes, ashes, we all fall down" song. I didn't know when I used to sing it as a kid, but I learned later that this song is about the black death and/or plague, which Meyer uses in this world as well to deal with the plague on hand.

MB wrote: "This is starting soon, yay! I feel a touch guilty :) because I actually couldn't hold out and read Cinder a week ago, though I'll try and get into the discussions. I really liked the book so I have..."

I'm getting excited too! And I almost did the same thing. I've been shoving other books shamelessly into my hands, trying to wait until tomorrow or Tuesday to start =)

370 pages

619 pages

Total: 989

Current Total: 1,778,646

Emily wrote: "I think you're right- thinking back, I also seem to remember YA books of that period (I'm like a year or two older than you) (view spoiler)."

I remember the first time I read Judy Blume's Forever (I think was the title) in my late middle school/early high school years. My innocent little eyes were shocked! Hahahaha. And then my friend, who also loved reading, picked it up while she was over and was flipping through it. She turned to me and was like "There are people having sex in this book!" I think we as a society have come pretty far in the past decade or so with regards to that, where it isn't such a shock anymore. I'm not sure if that's such a good thing for preteens/early teens or not (I was raised sooooo prudish hahaha), but I definitely agree we shouldn't be so afraid to write about it for young adults (it's not like they don't know about it!)


Emily wrote: "You'd think that babies would be most attracted to faces that looked similar to those of their parents (aka those most likely to be family members)"

I know they definitely recognize their mother's face early on too, and gravitate toward it as well. I can't remember about the father, but I believe the same holds true there.


Emily wrote: " I've never fully understood the appeal of following their every move, but lots of people do. They are treated like royalty (minus the political power), and a large percentage of the reason is their appearance. And yet, when Tally saw celebrities in the magazines in Uglies, she still didn't find them to be "pretty". A thought I had while reading Uglies was that while everyone is pretty, the operation would erase a lot of the actual beauty in individuals. IMO, really beautiful people are often somewhat exotic or unusual looking. Take, oh say, Julia Roberts. Her lips and mouth are totally out of normal proportions and thus would be eliminated by the pretty operation, but they're part of what make her so beautiful."

I'm the same way. I don't need to know which celebrity is getting engaged to/started dating/getting married to/getting divorced from which other celebrity... I have a hard enough time keeping up with my own relationship! And yet, the magazines and blogs and even television shows that follow that are staggering! I certainly don't need to know where movie stars and actors are eating/which events they are going to/etc., but that is huge in the "journalism" industry these days. Instead of celebrities, my Twitter feed is full of rovers and probes and science centers in the ESA and NASA lol. And I agree with you too, especially about Julia Roberts. The same was true for Courtney Arquette before she went and got plastic surgery done (now it's a little sad).


Emily wrote: "I thought she made some interesting points in the third main paragraph about how despite the author's apparent message that appearance doesn't matter, he undermines that message with his continued focus on the characters' looks and use of "ugly" and "pretty". I'm not saying I agree that it completely diminishes the message, but it does bug me that Talky and the rest of the characters continue to call normal people ugly."

Yeah, that bugged me some too. I think maybe it comes down to even when we start to maybe think differently and open up to new ideas/philosophies, it takes us a while to let go of the prejudices we've had all our lives (which is the case for Tally and say, how she views David in Uglies and Pretties). But I'm not sure I took the same meaning from it when I was a YA/teenager.