Sully ’s Comments (group member since Mar 23, 2015)

Sully ’s comments from the Nothing But Reading Challenges group.

Up to Chapter XVI (pg 185)

The plot is definitely starting to roll and pick up pace. I see the slow transition from character development to plot centered development taking place. We are still getting teases at backstory, but not a whole lot of substance to them now.


Emily wrote: "There are still major questions unanswered about each of the six, and at least part of me wishes she would just tell us the answers so we could move on to the plot, the development and exploration of relationships between the characters, some emotional depth, etc."

I am feeling the same way. On one hand, I like the mystery it adds to the plot. I think the problem is that I don't really connect with any of these characters (except maybe Inej a little), so I'm not spending all this time obsessing about what the past might hold as I sometimes do with other characters. Most of me just wants the backstory complete. I don't really like Matthias or Nina as this point. I'm still not sure what their past completely includes, but all the drama there just feels like it's drawing needless attention away from the plan for the plot. And Kaz is wayyyyy too wrapped up in this greed things for me to take a liking to him.

So this is what I'm thinking for the Crows so far:

(view spoiler)[A convict with a thirst for revenge - Matthias

A sharpshooter who can't walk away from a wager - Jester

A runaway with a privileged past - Wylan

A spy known as the Wraith - Inej

A Heartrender using her magic to survive the slums - Nina

and

A thief with a gift for unlikely escapes - ? (any ideas?)

Since it says all six work with Kaz, I don't think Kaz counts as one of the crows (hide spoiler)]

I don't know what the deal with Wylan is, except maybe he's a (view spoiler)[plant from his family to keep an eye on them, or to try to take them out once the rescue mission is done so they don't have to pay out that enormous sum (hide spoiler)].

Yeah, the (view spoiler)[Hellshow thing was pretty messed up. And I agree that Matthias's fight could have been written much better, as could their escape when they have to move through the area of all the unleashed creatures. It could have been a lot more suspenseful. But the part with Kaz and the eye later on at the docks? That stuff was messed up and definitely felt visceral (hide spoiler)]. I thought that part was well done.

I've got a family thing today so I might fall a little bit behind today and tomorrow, but still trying to read at least a little each day =)

Up to Chapter XI Jesper (pg 142)

I am still trying to figure out how Joost is going to play into the story. It feels like there ought to be some reason he was introduced in the first chapter, instead of just Anya. I'm thinking there is going to be a "bigger" picture for introducing Anya's character as well.

I'm not a big fan of all the drama between (view spoiler)[Nina and Matthias. I am sort of getting the feeling that maybe he was the one who brought her to that country since her testimony on human trafficking is what got him caught up in prison in the first place. But I think the whole "tension" between them is kind of forced (hide spoiler)]

The plot is definitely getting more interesting. It is still very slow, feels more like a simmer than a burn. For example, the entire last chapter - except right up to the very end - was basically just character development for Inej. At this point, I'm just gearing up for (view spoiler)[when they try to sneak in and get the captive out. I'm not sure how sound their plan seems (I think maybe it could have used a little more development - it came together pretty darn quick IMO), but we'll see. Definitely has potential for suspense! (hide spoiler)]

Up to Chapter VI: Nina (pg 81)

I feel the same way about Kaz. It definitely doesn't seem like he is 17! He has definitely climbed the social ladder extremely fast, and I want to know what caused the limp and what the deal with his hands is.

I also agree about the character development. I think it is going to play a large role in the decision these characters make building up to the situation in the center of the plot, but I don't feel much of a connection to any of them yet. Even Nina (who you are about to meet) seems to have a sad past like Inej (you're about to learn a little bit about her in chapter five, including the Menagerie), but I'm still not that connected to them. I think this might be because of the sheer number of characters we've been thrown. Even with development, it's a lot to take.

The one thing I'm not sure about with the magic is the way that (view spoiler)[the Parem fits into the ordeal. It seems to take all those rules that make the magic in this system fit into science and then chucks them out the window. So I'm not quite sold on this "miracle drug" yet that turns stuff to gold. If it were real though, I sure as heck wouldn't want it in my world. The chaos it would bring to the economies and politics would be staggering - I hope Bardugo gets into that more here. (hide spoiler)]

I think maybe 95% of people would forego their morals if they were given enough money (that's probably me being pessimistic). There was a movie, I think, that brought up a similar situation - The Box or something. All you had to do was push a button and you would get a million dollars. The catch was that when you pushed the button, someone would die. I wouldn't be able to do it, but I'm sure a lot of people could. So I think you are right, it depends on a person and their circumstances. Money doesn't really mean anything to me, so it isn't even an incentive. But say I was poor, homeless, an orphan and having to sell myself on the streets just to have a roof over my head at night? I'm not even sure I know what I would be capable of then if I could find a way out of that terrible situation. (view spoiler)[So I don't think greed rules everyone like Kaz, but I do think we all have things that drive us that could maybe be manipulated (hide spoiler)].


I think the plot is starting to slowly speed up in the last chapter or two, but it's still a little slow.

Logan wrote: "Did any of you read The Lies of Locke Lamora? This feels similar to that, but maybe it's just the parallel between seedy underworlds. "

I won a copy of it a while back and it's been on my shelf to read since then, but I haven't gotten around to it =( Is it good?

Emily wrote: "I think you're probably safe on Joost and Anya's romance, as my guess is that the characters from the first chapter aren't going to be major players in the book"

I'm a little further now and I think you are definitely right, I don't have to be too worried. Hopefully the romance for any of the characters doesn't become a huge plot point, and it seems there is already plenty enough going on without it with all these different characters. I think Joost might become one of the Six of Crows, as it seems each chapter follows one of these six main characters (I am guessing), but I have no idea which one he would be as of yet. And it first couple of paragraphs were definitely entertaining (in small doses).


Emily wrote: "I'm finding myself drawn into the story, but some of the things I didn't like so much from the Grisha trilogy are coming back to me, although my opinion on this book might end up being vastly different, as it's still very early on.."

How do you feel about authors who reuse the same worlds over and over in different series? For example, Bardugo is taking the world from the Grisha trilogy and reusing it here. Mead reused the world from Vampire Academy for Bloodlines, Cassandra Claire reuses her one universe for just about every book she writes, ect. ect. On one hand, I don't mind it and sometimes even like it (especially when you can get cameo roles from some of your favorite characters from previous series/novels in the "spin offs") but on the other hand, it feels a bit like they are cheating/using a crutch. When an author is truly talented, I like seeing all the different worlds they can create, instead of coming back to the same one time and time again.


I am finding it a slow read as well because there is just so much going on and soooo many characters induced all at once! And I think one character in specific goes by two different names which has been slowing me down even more. But the plot is definitely interesting so far, and the pace of the story is definitely moving along.

Up to Chapter 3 - Kaz (35)

It's a little confusing right off the bat with all the characters introduced since each chapter follows a different group of people it seems and I'm not certain how they all fit in. I do have the suspicion, however, that (view spoiler)[the ambassador found dead in a room where no one knows how the murder was pulled off might link back to the drug they were using on Anya in the first chapter, since she was able to use mind control. (hide spoiler)]

I'm hoping the romance between Joost and Anya doesn't become a major plot line. The second paragraph of this novel alone made me a little weary of it.

Up to Chapter 13


Jessi wrote: "--LOL, I know...isn't he just awesome! I love his flippant sarcasm. I heard someone once compare him to Captain Jack Sparrow...lol...I love the banter between him and Cinder. They haven't known each other very long yet they act like best friends who know each other so well that they're not afraid to throw little insults back 'n forth...I love it! Although (view spoiler) "

I don't know if I would make the connection to Captain Jack Sparrow... but then again, he does have a (view spoiler)[stolen ship (hide spoiler)] lol. When we see how Thorne interacts with Cinder, it's kind of what I would have expected between Cinder and Kai in the first novel. Granted, Thorne seems to get on Cinder's nerves a little since he is much more flippant and she is much more serious. But they have this instant rapporteur that works so easily for them, almost like flirting, that Cinder never really got to with Kai. But perhaps that was because of the separation of social class and the need for Cinder to be more respective of him?




Meanwhile, on the ranch, Scarlet is not having the easiest time. First grandmere, and now apparently (view spoiler)[her father (hide spoiler)]. Meyer does love to put her heroines through the ringer! And it's interesting to see how Meyer is interpreting Red Riding Hood, the Grandmom, and the Big Bad Wolf so far.

Up to Chapter X (pg 98)


Jessi wrote: "You root for her because of those qualities...she is able to rise above her terrible circumstances."

Exactly! She's not a damsel in distress, but life has certainly not been easy for her. And it doesn't seem like it's gonna get any easier any time soon either.




Jessi wrote: "maybe I'm reading into too much but when she admonishes him for not eating his veggies or her tomatoes and he responds by saying that he's never seen one before just gives me that mother and child vibe"

I took this scene to be more like she was just surprised he'd never even seen the vegetables before. It is kind of shocking, to be at that age and not know what a tomato or a carrot is.


Ahhhh, Captain Thorne. Such a lovable little goofball. Everything about his character oozes charm, even though he has a *bit* of an inflated ego and perhaps takes it a little too far sometimes. But right off the bat, he seems like a perfect foil for Cinder. She is so determined and serious, and he's just like (view spoiler)["So how do I look in my wanted picture? Still good, right?" and "They don't know if I never intended to return the ship or not" (hide spoiler)] It's probably a good thing he isn't real and we never crossed paths because he definitely seems like the type of guy that could get you into a lot of trouble lol.

Jessi wrote: "I really like Scarlet's character as well! She's headstrong, feisty and fiercely protective of those she cares about. Like Cinder, she's a strong independent heroine but what's nice is she is a different person from Cinder. Scarlet is a bit more impulsive, emotional, kind of a "wear her heart on her sleeve" kind of gal. Whereas Cinder seems to be more reserved. Being slightly older and more experienced Scarlet also seems to have more confidence than Cinder. I mean Scarlet's like "I ain't taking no crap from anybody." and "you mess with my grand-mere, you gotta deal with me then."
Cinder is more like "Oh well...I'll just pretend that I don't care..." "

Totally. I think a lot of this can be contributed to their upbringing. Scarlet is raised by a grand-mere in the military, and it sounds like her mother wasn't around and her father up and abandoned her. So her circumstances have kind of required her to be strong and independent, but she's also fiercely loyal to those that stick around because maybe she's used to losing others.

Cinder's never had that kind of affection from anyone, though Peony did care for it. Cinder grew up kind of like a castaway in her own home, largely unwanted by her stepmother and older stepsister. Being treated that may, Cinder is able to "brush the dust off" because she is used to having to, spending all that time being largely unwanted in the household she grew up in.

I love how these characters are actually developed, unlike their Grimm brothers/Disney counterparts.

Happy Scarlet Day, everyone ^^

Up to Chapter Four (pg 30)

I love Scarlet's observation in the restaurant of Wolf looking "no more menacing now than a scolded dog". I think that's a great way to tie in the wolf connection from Red Riding Hood and characterize the fighter at the same time.

Right off the bat, I love Scarlet as much as I love Cinder. She has the temperament of a red head, of course, but she needs it when dealing with the vendors, if the early chapters are any indication. And she seems to have fierce loyalty and love to those she cares about. It's quite admiral that she refuses to give up looking for her grand-mere.

I also like how instead of just the red hoodie, she has red hair too (I also have to give her mad props for having a gun hidden under her hoodie). Just like Cinder, it's clear right off the bat that Scarlet is not going to be your typical fairy tale heroine in distress.

Was getting worried I was going through Cinder too slow, but finished just in time to start this next week =)

Finished my reread last night.

I really like how Meyer incorporated a lot of the classical elements of the ball into Cinder. As Christina mentioned above, instead of losing her glass slipper, Cinder loses her foot. What I really like, though, is how (view spoiler)[Cinder walks off carrying it herself, instead of the prince finding it and using it to track her down like in the original tale. In fact, Cinder's ending in this novel is anything but a happily ever after. She's locked in a dungeon, where Kai is only prolonging the inevitable of Levana killing her. She certainly didn't get her prince, and she lost her sister and her robot, the only two people she truly loves, in the process. (hide spoiler)] And yet, Meyer's ending is kind of powering. Instead of this one dimensional female heroine who teaches young girls that all you need to do to find true love is sing to animals, she has developed this brash but charming young lady who has had to struggle her entire life and yet has never given up. Cinder is a much better role model than Cinderella ever was.

I also like how the doctor ends up (view spoiler)[being a fairy godmother like character once more at the end. Sure, he doesn't flick his magic wand and release her from prison, but her gives her a self identity she's always yearned for, and he gives her the tools - the hand and foot - that she needs to escape. (hide spoiler)] He is definitely a character you grow to love.

Can't wait to BR Scarlet with y'all next week =)

I don't think the series aged well with me. I loved, loved, loved this series when it first same out. I even paid MSRP for these books (which is a huge deal for me). But reading it now, I think a little more critically, logically, and scientifically then I did a decade ago. There are definitely a lot of plot holes in this series, and a lot of things that plan just don't make sense if you stop to think about them. And I was never very fond of Tally the first time around either. And she didn't really grow on me with age.

All that being said, I still like the social commentary in this series. And it's still an interesting read. So while I won't be obsessing over them and raving how awesome they are, I still think it's worth a read through once.

Emily wrote: "There wasn't quite as big of a climax as I would have liked"

I agree there. With all the build up that was spent for the potential of this city basically (view spoiler)[imploding on itself with suddenly aware Pretties running amok (hide spoiler)], the ending was definitely lackluster.


Emily wrote: "The concept that “freedom has a way of destroying things" is fascinating to think about."

This was a quote that made me think a bit too. Your point about the US vs ISIS is a great point. What I thought of was the rights that same sex partners and transgender people have recently been struggling for in the US. We love to pride ourselves on the freedom our country offers, and yet we still oppress some rights to some groups of our populations that other groups enjoy because of other freedoms we are given (mainly, freedom of religion). I don't think that freedom itself has a way of destroying things. I think it is the entitlement that some people get when they have freedom that makes them think they have rights to infringe upon the freedoms of others (such as monarchies, etc - bad example, I know) that has a way of destroying things. I think I'm kinda trying to say the same thing you did =)

That's true about Dr. Cable. That's the only reason I even remotely bought that part was how she explained it to Tally.

Finished


Shay and Tally definitely have a dysfunctional relationship that hasn't been healthy. I agree that caring deeply can cause all those things, but I think in this case, they never not the upswing up the emotional roller coaster. They hit the lows with their dysfunction, but I don't think I can pin point an instance where I could say "Hey, that was worth it, their friendship. Because look how much they care for each other."

Yeah, I didn't find her (view spoiler)[grieving true to heart either. It seemed more a convenience to the plot more than anything else; a reason to motivate Tally to go off back to the city to try to make up for it. And I was hoping that maybe, somehow, there would be a good message about the cutting at the end, to give it a point to being in the story. But I didn't see it. (hide spoiler)]

What did you think about the way (view spoiler)[Dr. Cable went out? I didn't find it very believable. Yes, she has that insane self worth Shay was talking about. She created these crazy Specials and she was the best of them all. But I don't think someone with the characteristics that Westerfeld gave her over the series would end with her setting Tally free. In anything, I think she would have been in a fit of rage that Tally - almost singlehandled it could seem - tore down all that Cable worked so long and hard to build. And then Tally took away what I would think would be the most important thing to Cable - Cable's own "specialness". I think if anything, Cable would have saved Tally just so she could kill her by her own hands. Although this series has that insane "rewiring" thing with the brain, sooo who knows. (hide spoiler)]

I think the ending with (view spoiler)[Tally and David's reunion was a little forced. Granted, they were given a romantic ending, so to speak, but I feel like part of the reason Westerfeld killed off Zane was so that he could reunite David and Tally, and David could tell her how "special" she is by just being Tally (which I, personally, don't think is a compliment hahaha). (hide spoiler)] What I did like about the ending was it reminded me a bit of the ending to BSG (Battlestar Galactica), where (view spoiler)[the writer points out that history has a knack for repeating itself. As they say on BSG, "All of this has happened before and will happen again". I think it's a bit naive to think that Tally and David will be able to guard against this change all by themselves, and I think humans will find a way to revert to their old ways once more (hide spoiler)].

What do you think of the ending/the book as a whole and the series as a whole (I don't count Extras as part of the series, since even my copy of Specials says right on the cover that it is the final book in the Uglies Trilogy)?

Up to Confession (pg 333)

With a few more details from Tally's trip, I tried to figure out where Tally's city is located. From the last few chapters, we learn:

(view spoiler)[The hoverboards are going 100 km/hr, and that she travels for over 2 days straight without stopping. Let's say that the 100 km/hr is a gross exaggeration and that it only goes 50 km/hr (roughly 30 mph). Considering she kept up with a helicopter for a while there on her way to Diego, this actually seems like a low ball, but let's run with it. So at 30 mph for 2 days straight (let's leave out the partial third day she know she traveled), that's 1,440 miles. From San Diego up the coast, which I believe she mentioned, and taking into account that her city is built near a large city in our time, that would put her city at... Vancouver. Soooo far past what we both guessed. (hide spoiler)] It doesn't seem to fit with the weather details we got from the first two novels really either in my opinion. It also doesn't take into account that I grossly rounded down the information provided too, which wouldn't make any sense unless she came (view spoiler)[across country on her trip, which doesn't seem to fit with the details either (hide spoiler)] I'm thinking this is another bit of an oversight/miscalculation on the author's part in order to fit the plot he wanted.

Kat wrote: "That's a good example! However, keeping with the fairytale theme, I was thinking of Regina from Once Upon a Time"

Regina is kind of the opposite, no? She starts out the Evil Queen to Snow White, but gets her redemption (and hopefully her happily ever after!) in Storybrooke through her metamorphosis away from being a villain. You started out hating her when the series started, but now you are rooting for her. With Levana, you start out feeling sorry for her because of her back story, but then you hate the person she has become.

Up to Chapter XXXII (pg 313)

Jessi wrote: "She reminds me of the evil queen in Snow White, I think Meyer has mentioned that she was based on that character. So yeah, basically Cinderella has to deal with her wicked stepmother and the evil queen from Snow White lol..."

I hadn't heard that, but it makes sense. From what I've heard/seen of Winter, it looks like Winter's story is going to be the story of Snow White, which would make Levana the Evil Queen from Snow White.


Jessi wrote: "It just occurred to me that Levana has an aversion to mirrors because it reveals her deception, while the evil queen in Snow White loves mirrors, in fact, she relies on it for the truth...so there's another interesting fairy tale parallel...or twist to the parallel... "

That's an awesome point! Her deception is her looks. Instead of seeing her as she really is, the mirrors reveal her true self, who isn't as beautiful and breathtaking as the image she projects. So really, "Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who's the fairest of them all?" becomes the opposite. She ignores the mirrors so she can believe she is the Fairest (title of her story!) of them all. So layered in its awesomeness =)



Kat wrote: "If you haven't read the series yet, don't read the spoiler ---> (view spoiler)"

(view spoiler)[Yeah, she's Cinder's aunt (hide spoiler)]


Kat wrote: "This is why I want to read Fairest so badly, because I suspect that she does have those roots for us to sympathize with, that turns her into this monstrous creature (that nobody sympathizes with)."

So true, you should read it for exactly that reason =) I hate to use this example again because I just used it for a different book, but have you seen Breaking Bad? It kind of reminds me of Walter White. The way they both start off as a sad person with the world against them and you instantly empathize with them... but then you see the person they become, and it's hard to see why you ever felt sympathy for them in the first place.

Up to Going Home (pg 308)

Emily wrote: "Up to "Going Home" (pg. 308)
[spoilers removed]"

This is heart breaking! And yet, maybe not completely unexpected. Shocking, yes, definitely. But it also seems a bit like karma. As Tally points out, (view spoiler)[her actions have caused a lot of repercussions she has never stopped to think about. The librarian/mayor and David's father dying in the Smoke, along with who knows how many else. And then when she and Shay destroy the Armory, and bring war to this city, leaving all the people hurt that need Zane's bed.

If you were Zane, what would you want in this situation? If you knew you wouldn't be able to breathe without a machine, would you want to continue on, hoping that eventually they might be able to find a cure to reverse you? Or would you want them to pull a plug? I ask because my husband and I both agree that is something like this every happened to us, we would want to somehow get to Oregon where we could do "assisted suicide" (which I don't think is the best term for it). I wouldn't want to live without living. (hide spoiler)]


Emily wrote: "Shay says: "Thinking like a Special is partly just human nature. It doesn’t take much convincing to make someone believe they’re better than everyone else.” Do you think that's true? I think only to some degree and about some people. Although some individuals certainly think they're superior, I would say a greater percentage of us are plagued with insecurities about ourselves that can be pretty hard to shake. "

I think it can definitely be true, yes (unfortunately). Have you seen Breaking Bad? I think Walter White is a perfect example of this. He starts out as this mild mannered high school teacher, and by the end.... well, I don't want to spoil it, but the way he transitions is so well done that the man he becomes is completely believable. Also, I don't know if you've seen Fargo (the television series), but it has a similar character that goes that a transition too, though a bit different. I think it's human nature to want to be the best, to be "perfect". I think we fight human nature in order to find humility and grace. And I think we all have that potential deep inside us. I think most of us can fight it, or never feel the need to point it out, even if we do feel superior in some ways. I think other characters (like being humble) can outweigh the need to prove that you are "superior".

But you bring up a great point about being plagued with insecurities. I think this is another characteristic that can overpower Shay's point. As someone going through the process of sending out manuscripts to literary agents, I'm always in constant fear of rejection, even though I know it's coming. But I'd like to think that, should a miracle happen and I get an offer and get published and become the next JK Rowling, I wouldn't let it go to my head. I'd probably still have those some insecurities with every new story I wrote.


I also liked Shay's comment about how they hate each other sometimes, but not all the time, which is why they are friends. That is one messed up friendship in my book.

Up to Part III (pg 278)

Emily wrote: "Up to Part III (pg. 278)

[spoilers removed]."

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. Especially since in Uglies, Dr. Cable was so intent on (view spoiler)[finding the Smoke that she went through all that trouble of blackmailing Tally to go find it. Wouldn't it have made more since, if there is so much tension between the two cities, that Dr. Cable would have attacked them in order to find the Smoke. But maybe they were hinting that there were safeguards in place, and that the attack on the armory was seen as a threat to their security and thus only then did they allow Dr. Cable to retaliate. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, I thought that was ridiculous too. Especially since they apparently don't need consent? And even if they had it, it's just as you said. (view spoiler)[What would they put in her body? And the explanation for why she's so hot-cold/on-off/trigger sensitive is that they put something in a part of her brain that "reprogrammed" her head? That seemed really far fetched as well. I definitely do NOT want to live in this crazy world where people have no consent over their own bodies. (hide spoiler)]

Oh yeah, I didn't even think about (view spoiler)[earthquakes. Doesn't seem like it would be the best place to build cities that have an infrastructure built under the city - the magnetic grids for the hoverboards. Of course, I thought it was crazy they had a subway in San Fran! Perhaps they live in a bit of denial in this future universe. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, I agree with that. Diversity is important - which is shown a bit here in this book - as I think it makes us unique and can help give us a sense of being our own person, and not just a cog in the machine (like Tally and Shay have become) - as long as others don't treat you poorly because of your diversity.