Assassins of Thasalon spoiler discussion space
Here, as has become my custom, is a space for persons who have already read to book to freely discuss it with each other in the comments. Enjoy!
Ta, L.
(Didn't think I'd need to set this post up so soon, it being a novel this outing -- it takes me 3 or 4 days to get through, though I'm slower these days -- but, speed readers.)
Ta, L.
(Didn't think I'd need to set this post up so soon, it being a novel this outing -- it takes me 3 or 4 days to get through, though I'm slower these days -- but, speed readers.)
Laura wrote: "This is my first time commenting. ... page 224: When it was older, it would doubtless fetch entire legs. Do you mean logs? Referring to the stick?"Welcome to the blog! You are post #100 in this thread, fwiw.
"legs" is intended, but you are the second independent reader to think it was a typo, which suggests there are more of you out there. Shall probably change it to "fetch people's entire legs." as the least jarring change, though I think the line will lose some snap. I don't usually revise for more than typos at this stage, because down that slippery slope madness lies, but...
Ta, L.
Just made it through my first, ultra-fast read, and utterly enjoyed. It's always nice to visit with Pen and Des again! Regarding what they know in Challion about demons, I'm inclined to think that it is very little compared to the rest of the Quintarian world, because of the Quadrine influence.
Look at their temple architecture. Everywhere else, a Quintarian temple is described as "five-sided" with each god having its own side. (I'm guessing the actual architecture is six-sided, one for each god, and one side as an enterance to the central area.)
Challion's temples are four-sided, with a separate tower for the Bastard. This is pretty clearly a retrofit from a Quadrine design. And for a town that shifts between Quintarian and Quadrine control in the ongoing war for control, it is practical. You can simply assign the Bastard's tower to another use while under Quadrine control, without having the new government knock down your whole temple and make you rebuild in an approved style. Then you can reopen the Bastard's tower when the Quintarians take over again.
I suspect for an ordinary, Challionise resident, not powerful enough to have a direct stake in the war for which set of nobles controls the government, their theology is equally flexible. Any alliance to the Bastard being seen as inconvenient, because while it is okay while the Quintarians are in control, it will cause you trouble when the Quadrines come back.
Anyway, that's my head-cannon on Challonise temple architecture and theology.
Although I do hope that Foix's demon at least eventually got a name.
After we met Alixtra I spent a while wondering who the other assassin/assassins was/were going to be and when we would meet them. The answer, when it came, was so delightful in its unexpected-yet-obviousness (the mark of the best kind of mystery).
Emily wrote: "After we met Alixtra I spent a while wondering who the other assassin/assassins was/were going to be and when we would meet them."Indeed, I was completely surprised. However, the assassins could have been understood as Alixtra and the people behind her: in particular Methani and Tronio. They were already sufficiently plural. So I wasn't particularly expecting any more.
Finished my first re-read (or second read) and enjoyed it even more than the first reading. I do so strongly feel that if a book isn't worth reading (at least) twice, then it isn't worth reading once. (Exceptions for classes, learning and book clubs.) Of course I have read all the Vorksogian and Five Gods and Sharing Knife books so many times I have lost count.I agree about the second assassin. I hadn't really thought about the meaning of the plural in the title, and didn't even really think about it when the sundered ghost appeared, but once the ID of the second significant assassin was disclosed it was that inevitable rightness, fitting character development not only from this book, but from a previous novella. I was surprised and yet struck by the inevitable-ness of it.
Thank you also for including the wedding, the puppy, and so many more tiny yet important touches. I can't begin to list all of the bits I liked "best", it would be such a very long list.
More thoughts on 'assassins' plural. Alixtra and her demon considered as two entities as Penric and Des often are could be plural all on their own. You don't have to survive the assassination to be an assassin. Although thankfully Arra was only an attempted assassin
I realized I had forgotten some of the earlier details, so after reading this, I ended up going back and reading all of Penric and Des in internal chronological order, and that was a great decision. Very satisfying getting it all straight in my head. :-)
Mary wrote: "I realized I had forgotten some of the earlier details, so after reading this, I ended up going back and reading all of Penric and Des in internal chronological order, and that was a great decision..."Glad the series stands up to re-inspection!
L.
I too was completely taken by surprise by the second assassin though it makes perfect sense in hindsight. I also note that no one is saying who that is in spite of this being a spoiler space.
At 85% - "The charge here - is that another extra quotation mark?
One thing that I have wondered is why do some people (or creatures) become unconscious when they contract a demon and some don't--like Magal's fox?
Talli wrote: "At 85% - "The charge here - is that another extra quotation mark?"No, it's another missing paragraph break. Drattit.
Those seem to be elusive -- it's correct in my original file, so appears to be some artifact of uploading. Sometimes they're there when my e-handler looks, and sometimes not.
The second pass of corrections already went in, though they haven't surfaced in my Kindle yet. I'll start a third list, sigh. But for later.
Ta, L.
Loved this and stayed up to 3am a couple of times reading! As a medical person I also love the medicine/healing/anatomy throughout the Pen&Des books and how well it is described and understanding progresses. Generally how 'health and social care' works in the world of the five gods, and each God's/order's responsibilities are carried out, is one of many excellent bits of world-building too.
Talli wrote: "Ok - I closed the book and reopened it and now the corrections are there, although not that sentence with two "evens" which I think didn't get corrected.I'm using the Kindle app on an Android phone"
OK... the second group of corrections has not yet appeared in my purchased edition, though they went in a couple of days ago. Have closed the book and reopened it, no dice yet. A quick distinctive search check between v.2 and v.3 should find "fetch entire legs" changed to "fetch people's entire legs"
Does anyone else have v.3, in any of the vendor formats? (Before I take the more extreme step of deleting it and buying it again just to check, tho' I'd get a rebate from my royalty share in due course.)
curious, Lois.
Lois wrote: "Talli wrote: "Ok - I closed the book and reopened it and now the corrections are there, although not that sentence with two "evens" which I think didn't get corrected.I'm using the Kindle app on a..."
Just looked. Not seeing "fetch people's", so I don't have it.
Karenhunt wrote: "Just looked. Not seeing "fetch people's", so I don't have it"Hm. It got updated (from our end) the evening of the 20th. I'll give it another day to grind through, then see. We might have to give it another go...
Ta and thanks, L.
Lois wrote: "Does anyone else have v.3, in any of the vendor formats?"Here in Spain, I don't think I have any corrections yet, and my list of purchased books on Amazon doesn't show any update available for Assassins. It's possible to read a book online from the list on the Amazon website; when I try that, I still get "fetch entire legs".
No v3 for me yet though my Kindle app seems to have reset itself - lost my font settings and all my bookmarks. Probably nothing to do with this book.
Talli wrote: "No v3 for me yet though my Kindle app seems to have reset itself - lost my font settings and all my bookmarks. Probably nothing to do with this book."It could be a side-effect of Alixtra's demon, which is still young and may leak chaos here and there.
I should have thought of shed chaos. Of course
Jonathan wrote: "Talli wrote: "No v3 for me yet though my Kindle app seems to have reset itself - lost my font settings and all my bookmarks. Probably nothing to do with this book."It could be a side-effect of Al..."
Heh. Which suggests, in the future 5GU, one would want to keep sorcerers away from computers and their programming much as folks want to keep them away from ships...
L.
Lois wrote: "Which suggests, in the future 5GU, one would want to keep sorcerers away from computers and their programming much as folks want to keep them away from ships..."Well, yes. Resetting the software is a very mild effect: the integrated circuits turn to sand in the presence of significant magic. Sounds familiar?
Not a typo, but....CH17: "Yes, Des agreed, let her speak her truths aloud before the one who sinned against her. In the normal course of justice, Pen understood, it was the accused who had a right to be confronted by his accusers, but this time it seemed more the other way around."
Surely in "the normal course of justice" the accused has a right to confront his accusers, rather than the right to be confronted by them? Isn't that the basis of the US constitution's 6th amendment? Not that the US constitution applies in the 5GU of course.
Gordon wrote: "Surely in "the normal course of justice" the accused has a right to confront his accusers, rather than the right to be confronted by them?"To confront means to come face to face with someone, so whether you confront someone or are confronted by someone, it comes to the same thing in the end: you're face to face with each other. 🙂
Gordon wrote: "Not a typo, but....CH17: "Yes, Des agreed, let her speak her truths aloud before the one who sinned against her. In the normal course of justice, Pen understood, it was the accused who had a right..."
While the version of the Middle Ages in the 5U is somewhat softer than our own, because all those real gods need to be good for something, none of its many systems of justice have much relationship to that of 21st. C. America, I'm afraid. (Though they are quite complicated in their own right, especially longstanding polities like Cedonia that have had written law for centuries.)
That the accused has any rights is a step up from some historical examples.
Ta, L.
(Now reminded of the wonderful Judge Dee mysteries by Robert van Gulik, for a look at a very different judicial system. Recommended.)
Another wonderful Penric/Desdemona book, and this one a novel!! Your writing is so beautiful, even the typos don't bother me. I really trust you as an author.....to do the right thing with your characters, no gratuitous violence, and consistency. And beautiful prose! It was great to see old characters appear, Dubro, the dedicat sisters, Chadro. Nice to have closure.
I'm glad Adelyis is back in Cedonia with Tanar...and Bosha. That certainly opens the way for more adventure there. Finding Idrene's old house and hidden jewels? Will Nikys and her mother lobby for a return to their homeland?
As someone above mentioned, Pen is an extraordinary scholar, and in this novel references his theology more, even to scolding the Archdivine, or was that the supervisor of sorcerers? Might Pen advance upwards into "management" in his later years? Or training? He'll get practice with Alixtra.
Tricia wrote: "Your writing is so beautiful, even the typos don't bother me."If you think this book has typos (some readers have spotted a few), you should try some older books that have been scanned into e-books from the paper versions. Some of them don't seem to be been checked after scanning: horrible.
I still have one Kindle e-book with two whole pages missing, where two pages were turned instead of one while scanning.
Sandy wrote: "Any Thoughts on the theology aspects? I thought it striking that the gods rejected someone. I think this is the first time that has happened. In previous books they had been willing to take the "ba..."Thinking the same thing! What makes Methani worse than Horseriver?
The discussion of sundering or not suggests to me that maybe in some future adventure Penric can be involved in an investigation of attempted or successful death magic. Death magic hasn't been re-visited since "Chalion," and the unpacking of the theology there could make some very interesting reading. Questions: is there a functional difference between a soul being sundered and being taken to the Bastard's hell with the death demon? Question: though both the death demon and Desdemona are called "demons," they are obviously different types of beings.
Other observation: There seem to be many, many more elementals and demons in general in Cedonia. In "Paladin of Souls," dy Cabon says that his order usually only sees one or two stray elementals per year in all of Chalion. And the closest demon-eating saint is a country and a mountain range away. Iroki has been eating demons at a faster rate than that, as has the saint in Lodi.
Sara wrote: "...Thinking the same thing! What makes Methani worse than Horseriver?"I'd say the original Horseriver probably wouldn't be accepted by any of the gods. But the dozen sub-souls within him included several who did want to assent to them.
HH, p. 444 (Original hardcover): "He must have been a great-souled man, once, for the gods to desire him still, here in his uttermost ruin." Seems to imply, and I've always read, that the gods DID desire the original Horseriver, and it was him who rejected the gods.
Sara wrote: "HH, p. 444 (Original hardcover): "He must have been a great-souled man, once, for the gods to desire him still, here in his uttermost ruin." Seems to imply, and I've always read, that the gods DI..."
True. Sort of like the Golden General in Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls, I suppose. He'd been a great saint of the Father, from the sounds of it, but the Bastard was willing to take him down at the end.
Being taken by the death demon apparently does not necessarily mean a soul ends up in the Bastard's hell, since Martou dy Jironal was taken up by the Father despite being borne off by the death demon along with Dondo. So presumably the Golden General could have gone to the Father in the end.Horseriver, on the other hand, was sundered voluntarily, denying the gods. Methani seems to have been the flip side of that coin, being refused by the gods. Apparently it's also not true that the Bastard has to take "leftover" souls--not if they've sufficiently offended the white god.
Read it very thoroughly, finished just now. It was a great pleasure, as always. Ms Bujold. Thank you.
I see all the latest corrections have updated automagically in my tablet's Kindle file this afternoon -- marvelous tech.If you find any more errata... keep them a secret.
Ta, L.
Well, Horseriver was not corrupt when he died, he was carrying out a sort-of-legitimate religious ritual that was interrupted and went Horribly Wrong. His corruption was a form of insanity from the consequences of how it went wrong, possessing his heirs. And the original, corrupted, Horseriver's soul was enmeshed with the souls of his heirs, such as Wencel, who were innocent in the matter, and both wanting and deserving a connection with the gods after death.
While we see the official Quintarian Temple having strong issues about orthodoxy, the gods themselves seem to be far more accepting of variations in worship. The Father, at least, doesn't seem to have a problem with Quadrine faith, as shown by his favoring the Lion of Roknar. And the Son is fine with the Shaminic faith that the original Horseriver followed.
Horseriver was someone who was corrupted after death, and needed healing, from the gods' perspective. He was *angry* with the gods because his ritual and attempt to save his culture went wrong, but he hadn't done anything that *offended* the gods.
Ursula wrote: "...Horseriver was someone who was corrupted after death, and needed healing, from the gods' perspective. He was *angry* with the gods because his ritual and attempt to save his culture went wrong, but he hadn't done anything that *offended* the gods."Not sure I'd go that far... According to Horseriver, Audar "had gathered all the Temple saints and sorcerers that Darthaca could muster in his train. It took the gods' own betrayals to bring us down at Holytree."
That sounds to me like the gods were plenty upset about the ritual.
Hmm, not sure that follows. The saints and sorcerers in question would still be free-willed human beings with their own opinions and reasons for following Audar that might not have anything to do with the gods' opinions (especially true of the sorcerers, I should think).Not to mention that the quote comes from Horseriver, who had his own biases.
Karenhunt wrote: "Ursula wrote: "...Horseriver was someone who was corrupted after death, and needed healing, from the gods' perspective. He was *angry* with the gods because his ritual and attempt to save his cultu..."I'm not sure I'd take Horseriver's opinions of the gods' motives as a reliable source.
It's the same problem that Caz warned about with the judge - half the petitioners leave court disappointed, if not wronged. The same thing when two sides of a conflict pray for success - the gods may not care who won, but simply worked to answer the specific prayers involved. But Horseriver's side never got to finish the prayer/ritual due to timing, and therefore weren't properly answered.
Auder's side were clearly the more technologically advanced soldiers, and were already winning the war before Horseriver tried the ritual as a last-ditch effort to stop them. Audur used magic, in the form of sorcerers, but didn't seem to rely on magic as Horseriver did in the end.
Turning your army into a lot of magically strengthened berserkers simply wasn't as much of an advantage as Horseriver hoped it would be, when facing better supplied, trained and disciplined soldiers.
Horseriver seeing his defeat as a betrayal by the gods presumed both that the gods understood the conflict in the same way that the humans involved did, and that the gods had a strong opinion about which side should win. Neither seems a reasonable assumption.
Ursula wrote: "Karenhunt wrote: "Ursula wrote: "...Horseriver was someone who was corrupted after death, and needed healing, from the gods' perspective. He was *angry* with the gods because his ritual and attempt..."This argument has gone too far afield for my tastes. Enjoy, but I'm dropping out.
The last wave of corrections came through automagically on my Kindle edition yesterday, to my relief... Have folks with Nook and Apple/iBooks also received updated versions?(Quick spot check, search for: fetch people's legs )
Ta, L. Glad to be done with this post-production chore.
Lois wrote: "The last wave of corrections came through automagically on my Kindle edition yesterday, to my relief..."There's still no Kindle auto-update here in Spain, but today, for the first time, I found a manual update available for this book, and I used it. That worked on my Kindle, legs indeed updated, but it didn't seem to work on my computer, for which I had to re-download the book manually. We get there in the end. Thank you for the book and the (minor) corrections!
Currently my two favorite quotes ( it tends to change every time I reread a quotable story like this)“The god was…” Iroki paused a long moment, finally choosing, “Wroth. Huh. Now I know what that word means. I don’t think my Temple tutors in Dogrita really grasped the full of it.” And after another moment, “Not wroth with the assassin, though. Her, I think He liked.”
"I’d say he’s downright demanding. But the god won’t have him.”
“A soul that the Bastard won’t take? That’d call for some heroically bad behavior on the part of our late companion, here.”
“I couldn’t feel any of the rest of the Five trying to reach out, either. I sometimes sort of can, not clear like my god though. But this was just… empty. Scary empty. Not an empty street—the street itself gone. Like stepping out the door and your feet hitting air.”
Jonathan wrote: "Sandy, I suppose you're right from Jurgo's point of view, but I'd have thought that abandoning Jurgo so suddenly might weigh on Adelis's conscience.At least Jurgo doesn't seem to be losing Penric..."
There was that bit where Adelis and Pen talk about how essentially Adelis' family living under Jurgo would be hostages against any Cedonian aggression - an outcome of Adelis returning to Cedonia that probably had a great deal of value to Jurgo.
Norine Luker wrote: "Adelis' family living under Jurgo would be hostages against any Cedonian aggression - an outcome of Adelis returning to Cedonia that probably had a great deal of value to Jurgo. "I suppose the answer is that Adelis would have talked to Jurgo about it, and they came to an agreement that reassured both of them.
Jonathan wrote: I suppose the answer is that Adelis would have talked to Jurgo about it, and they came to an agreement that reassured both of them.Just the opposite, really. Adelis makes it clear to Penric that while both He and Jurgo are aware that leaving his extended family there is surety against turning Cedonian forces against them, it must remain unsaid. Because their relationship is based on trust, and while the "hostage" situation is a matter of the fact of where people are living, it isn't something that Jurgo can ask for and keep Adelis's trust.
It's that way in any relationship where people trust each other. There is always the potential for doing each other harm. As long as it is unspoken, it's fine. But once you start verbalizing the potential threats, you no longer have a trusting relationship, you have a relationship based on distrust and threats.
Ursula wrote: "Adelis makes it clear to Penric that while both He and Jurgo are aware that leaving his extended family there is surety against turning Cedonian forces against them, it must remain unsaid."Looking again at the end of Chapter 2, I see you're correct. Furthermore, Adelis seems to make his decision and head off to Cedonia without meeting Jurgo again, which is a bit surprising. If you mean to terminate your employment on amicable terms, it would seem polite to have a word with your employer before doing so. Adelis had a high-level job, and leaving such jobs generally involves making arrangements about work in progress, explaining things to your successor, and so on.
Jonathan wrote: "Ursula wrote: "Adelis makes it clear to Penric that while both He and Jurgo are aware that leaving his extended family there is surety against turning Cedonian forces against them, it must remain u...Adelis had a high-level job, and leaving such jobs generally involves making arrangements about work in progress, explaining things to your successor, and so on. "
I suspect that things worked a bit different in Adelis' military. The situation being that any soldier could be killed or incapacitated at any time, it would be prudent to make sure that Adelis or any other officer could be replaced at once with as little disruption as possible. If he did not keep his successor constantly apprised of the situation and insist that all his subordinates be as well-prepared he could not be a commander as effective as he is reputed to be.
S wrote: "The situation being that any soldier could be killed or incapacitated at any time, it would be prudent to make sure that Adelis or any other officer could be replaced at once with as little disruption as possible."Although Adelis clearly had plenty of past combat experience, his job as an army commander (and a valuable one) wouldn't involve him routinely risking his own life, especially not in peacetime. I don't think Orbas or Cedonia are so primitive that the general has to charge at the head of his men.
Yes, I expect that a competent army could handle the sudden disappearance of its commander without serious problems; but nevertheless the handover would surely go easier if the old and new commanders had time to talk it over.
Laura, I agree with you about "he knew he was" and about the logs, but I think commas are often a matter of personal taste. Myself, I prefer them as they are; I wouldn't remove them.