Pam Laricchia's Blog, page 32

EU107: Alternative Schools to Unschooling with Jessica

My guest this week is Jessica, an unschooling mom living in Germany. Unschooling is illegal in Germany, so we’ve kept everything on a first-name basis to protect her anonymity. Jessica decided even before her son was born that her child wouldn’t attend conventional schools, but she had no idea that the alternative schools that sounded so great wouldn’t work well for her son either. In our conversation, we dive into the challenges they found with two alternative schools, how her decision to make the leap to unschooling unfolded, what deschooling looks like for them both and lots more!

Quote of the Week

“That was one of those really big important parts about actually validating and taking that time, because I thought I was doing it before, but it wasn’t until I didn’t have those time constraints on us that I realized this can take hours and hours, or days as it needs to, and it can just keep coming up because we’re always together.” ~ Jessica

Questions for Jessica

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

When your son hit school age, you chose an alternative school. How did that decision come about?

You became a teacher at the school as well, right? But eventually you saw signs that your son wasn’t doing well in the environment. What were some of the aspects he found challenging?

Next, you tried a Montessori school. How was that experience?

How did your decision to make the leap to unschooling unfold?

Even though your son only attended alternative schools, did you find that he still needed some deschooling time?

And what about your deschooling? With schools now out of the picture, what have been the more challenging shifts as you move to unschooling?

What do you love most about your unschooling lives right now?

Episode Transcript

Read the episode intro diving into the 2017 survey results

Read the episode transcript

The 2017 Survey: Unschooling Around the World

I’m excited to share some information and thoughts around the survey I put out last month. Thanks so much to everyone who took the time to participate—I really appreciate it!

So, 336 people participated in the survey, anonymously.

The first question was …

Where do you live?

53.5% of the respondents were from the US, 14% from the UK, same from Canada, and 5% from Australia.

And 13.5% are from other countries including Germany, the Netherlands, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, the Czech Republic, Moldova, Lithuania, South Africa, India, China, TaiWan, Japan, the Philippines, New Zealand, Cayman Islands, Mexico, and Argentina.

And a traveling family too!

I love seeing the spread of unschooling around the world.

The next question was …

Where are you on your unschooling journey?

About 14% of the respondents haven’t started unschooling yet, they are learning about it to see if it is right for them. That’s wonderful! I love that you guys are curious and are actively trying to learn.

17% have been unschooling for less than a year, so, I imagine, most of you are actively deschooling. It’s an intense time, with mind-blowing a-ha moments alternating with panicky moments of “What am I doing??” Hang in there and keep learning, keep spending time with your kids, it will come together!

The largest chunk of our respondents, 41%, have been unschooling for between one and five years. I love knowing so many of you have made it through your first year! Most often, by this point, the panicky moments are fewer and further between. We’re comfortable with how well unschooling works for learning, and now we’re discovering how it weaves so wonderfully into everyday living—unschooling becomes a lifestyle. My conversation last week with Kelly Callahan is a great example. She has been unschooling for four years and is now seeing unschooling connections in practically every aspect of their lives.

That leaves 28% of respondents who have been unschooling for more than five years. And I love that you guys are here! Because our learning and growing is never done, and continuing to look at our lives through the lens of unschooling is a spectacular way to stay connected with our children, our partner, and the kind of parent and person we want to be.

Next question.

What is your biggest unschooling challenge right now?

I got 329 answers to this question, thank you!

As I go through them in detail, one thing I’ve learned is I need a better way to help you guys find specific podcast episodes related to various kinds of questions! Someone mentioned that too, in answer to another question.

Not that there are definitive answers, but with over 100 episodes, there are conversations, thoughts and perspectives shared by my guests and I, that touch on so many of the unschooling challenges people encounter along the way—including a good number of the ones mentioned here.

But I realize there’s no reasonable way to find them! Who has time to click through to every episode to scan through the questions looking for something specific? I want to see if I can better tag and group episodes by topic or challenge so these conversations are easier to find.

In the survey, someone suggested maybe putting together podcast episodes with snippets of various episodes focused on a particular challenge. That sounds like it might be an interesting idea. Some of the episodes are deep-dives into a topic, but those topics also get mentioned in other episodes as well, depending on the guest’s experience.

Another piece of the puzzle may be that school has so ingrained the idea that once you do something, you tick that box and there’s no need to go back to it, that people don’t even think to go back to old episodes. But even if someone listened to the episode six months ago, if they weren’t having this particular challenge at the time, that part of the conversation probably passed them by. That’s not a slight at all, it’s how we learn—we pick up what connects to us in that moment we’re listening. So, I’m going to try get better at sharing earlier episodes on Facebook, to help people discover the many gems that are there.

And I know we’ve talked on the podcast about the value of revisiting information and ideas a few months later. Often you find that things make even more sense now and you gain new insights, because since then, you’ve grown and changed.

In the responses are also ideas for new topics and questions for me to tackle on the podcast, or on my blog, or maybe in a new book.

Thanks for taking the time to share your current challenge.

Then there were a few questions that are likely more interesting for me than you, like how people found my work, which of my books they’ve read, and how they like to read, meaning print books, ebooks etc.

The interest in audiobook editions was pretty much split down the middle. Which means that about half of you would like them, so I’m going to put recording them higher up on my to do list.

As for translations of Free to Learn, there were 9 requests for Italian, 4 for German, a couple for Japanese, and a few other languages. Including Klingon, which was hilarious! Thanks for the laugh.

The next question was whether the respondent listens to the podcast, to which 75% said yes, which is very cool! And for those who prefer reading to listening, I have the transcripts and newsletter summaries. I am keen to continue having the information and insights shared by the podcast guests available through both channels so anyone interested can choose their preference. The draft transcripts for the older episodes have almost all been done too! I just need to get them formatted and up on the website.

Next up …

Which kinds of episodes do you enjoy?

The top five episode types were:

Individual topics with unschooling parents
Q&A Round Tables, the monthly episodes with Anne Ohman and Anna Brown where we answer your questions
Growing Up Unschooling, interviews with grown unschoolers
Ten Questions episodes, with veteran unschooling parents
Deschooling episodes, conversations focused on the transition to unschooling, often with newer unschooling parents

Unschooling Dads episodes were the runner up.

That’s great stuff to know to help me plan future episodes!

Speaking of, 169 respondents answered the next question about topics they’d love to see covered on the podcast.

Thanks so much for the outpouring of ideas! It’s energizing to be able to swim in so much inspiration! And again, some of the topics have been touched on in previous episodes, so, figuring out the archive discoverability piece will be really helpful for you guys, I think.

Next, I asked about the Childhood Redefined Unschooling Summit and over 50% of respondents said they were interested in more information. That’s awesome and here’s your opportunity! Summit registration opened TODAY! You can find all the information at childhoodredefined.com. I’d love to have you join us for this Winter’s Expedition.

And lastly, I asked if there was anything else they’d like to share, and 226 people generously answered.

Many of you took the opportunity to share your appreciation for my work, and I was so touched. Thank you. It’s great to know that you’re finding my work helpful on your unschooling journey. That is what I LOVE to do.

There were a few that I thought would be interesting and/or fun to talk about.

Someone asked about my Myers Briggs type. Haha. INTJ. To me, unschooling and the unschooling journey are both amazingly complex systems and the systems thinker in me just LOVES trying to make sense of them! I’ve spent three years now working on my next book, The Unschooling Journey: A Field Guide, which looks at our unschooling journey through the lens of Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey. It’s been fascinating work and I’m SO excited to finally be releasing it soon!

Another person shared they found the podcast by googling something like, “How can I find more joy in my life.” How cool is that??

A number of people mentioned they really enjoy the newsletter summary of that week’s podcast episode, which is good to know because they take at least a few hours each week to put together.

A couple of people asked about whether I’d be interested in coaching online. For me, I know it’s not one-on-one, but the Childhood Redefined Unschooling Summit is basically my take on coaching.

I love sharing information and insights about unschooling through the podcast, my books, and my website. And you’ve probably heard me talk on the podcast about how there’s intellectually understanding unschooling—that’s the first step—but then there’s that next step—the real, personal work of actually bringing it into your family’s everyday lives. That’s what Anne, Anna, and I focus on in the Summit. And we’re there, engaging with the participants in our private Facebook group, answering any questions that arise as they work through the content, and as they go about their days with their children. We dig deep in there. Again, you can check it out at childhoodredefined.com.

One respondent shared, “In 2009 we lost our always unschooled 19-year-old to a seizure in his sleep. Nothing could have made me more grateful for our unschooling life and all the time we had together.” I’m so sorry for your loss. And thank you for sharing a great reminder that we don’t know how long we might have with our children, and that spending our time with them in joy NOW is so meaningful—they are a real and whole person from the moment they’re born.

Someone asked about videos. The Summit has videos! I’ve been getting more comfortable with video and this year I plan to record some of the talks I’ve given over the last few years, as well as newer ones I’ve written for online conferences and events.

Another person mentioned they’d love the podcast to be less scripted. That they enjoy the natural flow of the Q&A and feel the other episodes would benefit from a less structured format. I found that so interesting!

Just to share a little behind-the-scenes, the only shows I make notes ahead of time for ARE the Q&A episodes. I usually spend 2-3 hours prepping for them, contemplating the listener questions and making detailed notes—often it takes some mulling things over before possibilities and insights arise.

For the interview episodes, yes, I spend at least that amount of time prepping: contemplating the topic, researching the guest, writing the questions, and arranging them in an order I think will keep the conversation flowing. But then, I’m done. Once we get on the call, I like to let the conversation flow wherever it wants to go, so, I don’t have any prepared notes for those episodes.

That said, how other people experience the episodes isn’t wrong. It reminds me that I create the work and once I release it, it’s out of my hands—I have no control over how people connect to or absorb my work. And I don’t want to. And, all of a sudden, my work is feeling closer to art than ever before.

One last comment I wanted to share. One respondent wrote, “I’d love your interviewees to be people who live and love unschooling, I know a couple of your interviewees in real life and although they have picked up how to talk the talk pretty well, the depth of living unschooling is not there.”

I appreciate the point and it’s one that I’ve contemplated ever since I started the podcast, because I don’t know the majority of guests personally.

But as I thought it through, I realized that we are all on our own unschooling journeys. And, as I mentioned a bit earlier, the first part of the journey is about intellectually understanding the principles of unschooling and how it works—which means being able to “talk the talk.” To know what they are walking toward.

I strive on the podcast not to have conflicting information about the principles of unschooling nor about ways to develop the strong, connected, and trusting relationships with our children that help unschooling thrive—I don’t want to confuse people.

But the next stages are about learning how to weave that understanding into the reality of our everyday lives. That takes time. And that is where I try to help the podcast shine, talking about what we’re walking toward on our unschooling journey and sharing the treasures found, the mis-steps taken, the insights revealed, and the skinned knees that happen along the way as we explore this unschooling path.

Sometimes our actions fall short of our ideals. Sometimes, because life—and the people in our lives—are always changing, there are times when we’re struggling to re-connect with our children, to get back in step with the dance of our relationships. So, I don’t think someone needs to be near the end of their journey to have valuable experience and insights to share.

It is a solid point though, thanks for mentioning it.

I hope you enjoyed this glimpse into our wonderful community!

And thanks again for those of you who participated.

EU106: Unschooling Connections with Kelly Callahan

My guest this week is Kelly Callahan, unschooling mom of two. Kelly is now four years into her unschooling journey, and I was excited to explore how unschooling has been weaving ever more deeply into their lives. We chat about how they began unschooling, her deschooling challenges, the connections she’s seen between unschooling and her work as a homeopathic doctor, maintaining family connections with her husband when he travels for work, and lots more.

Quote of the Week

“The things that challenge me are never the unschooling. It’s really because I’m super attached to something—being someway or some idea I had about it.” ~ Kelly Callahan

Questions for Kelly

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

How did you discover unschooling and how did your family’s choice to move to unschooling come about?

What did you find to be one of the bigger challenges as you were deschooling?

Can you share a bit about your children’s interests and how they weave into your lives?

You’ve discovered some interesting connections between your work as a homeopathic doctor and unschooling. I know as I continue to learn on my writing journey, I make connections and gain insights that feed into my unschooling journey, and vice versa. It seems that as I go deeper into one, it takes me deeper into the other. Have you found that as well?

I understand that your husband has been traveling a lot with work. Can you share your experience with keeping him in the loop and maintaining connections while he’s away?

You’ve been unschooling for four years now. At this point in your journey, do you find that unschooling principles weave their way into all aspects of your lives?

Links to Things Mentioned in the Show

New England-based singing camps: Village Harmony

Connect with Kelly on Facebook

Kelly’s practice, Concentric Healing Homeopathy, website and on Facebook

Episode Transcript

Read the transcript here

EU105: Unschooling Dads with Nick Hess

My guest this week is Nick Hess, also known online as The Unschool Dad. He and his wife unschool their five children. We chat about about his family’s move to unschooling, what it was about unschooling that resonated with him, what he’s found challenging, and surprising, about unschooling as it has unfolded in their lives, and lots more!

Quote of the Week

“For thousands of years, humans learned naturally. When you let it happen and you get there, and you do not force it, you are just there helping them. And I think that is the important part, is that you have to be there. I mean, me and my wife are constantly with our children. You have to be there to help them, and guide them, answer their questions, or help them spell something. And when you are there, and you are just part of your children’s lives, you just see it all. You come together and it is truly a magical lifestyle that we live, it is just amazing.” ~ Nick Hess

Questions for Nick

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

I love hearing about what unschooling kids are up to. Can you share what your children are interested in right now?

What did your family’s move to unschooling look like?

What were the pieces that resonated with you and helped you feel more confident in choosing unschooling?

What has been the most challenging aspect of moving to unschooling for you?

What has surprised you most so far about how unschooling has unfolded in your lives?

You post regularly on Facebook and Instagram as The Unschool Dad, sharing inspirational quotes as well as pics of your unschooling lives. I enjoy following you guys and I’d love to know what inspired you to start this project.

As an unschooling dad, what piece of advice would you like to share with dads who are considering or just starting out on this journey?

Links to Things Mentioned in the Show

Rosie Hess illustrated the book, Bubbles and Puddles: Our Unschooling Adventure, by Kristie Howe

Connect with Nick, The Unschool Dad, on Facebook and Instagram

Episode Transcript

Read the transcript here

EU104: Q&A Round Table

Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join Pam to answer listener questions. This month we dig into questions around when parents are at odds over parenting choices, ways to share information with more conventional parents, teens making connections and considering school, and ways to handle when a child calls themself “stupid.”

Click here to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table!

Listener Questions

Anonymous Question (from Ireland) [TIME: 1:43]

Hi, thank you so much for your great podcast and all the work you’re putting into answering our questions every month!

We’re on our journey to unschooling since November last year and it’s been very exciting. Our children are currently 8, 6 and 2. My question is about my husband. He didn’t like the idea of taking our two older kids out of school but finally agreed to it last year because I never stopped talking about it and felt my daughter (8) wasn’t thriving at all. So he agreed and changed his mind a lot about schools and learning since. He could see how much happier the kids seemed after leaving school and how much they learn every day.

However, he is much stricter than I am and expects a lot of them. The kids usually know the difference and everything seems to go well as long as they are just with one of us but the problems arise whenever we do things together as a family. I just can’t stand the way he shouts at them sometimes or tells one of them to go to their room (when they were younger he even locked them outside the door sometimes) or tells them to shut up moaning etc. So I usually interfere but then our kids have to choose sides and my husband says that I criticise him all the time. He says I don’t want to change and mould my children but I want to change HIM and he is right I suppose. He also says I should find better ways of dealing with the situation before they go out of hand but I’m often at a loss too. When I’m on my own with our children many of these situations don’t even arise because I don’t expect them to “sit still and eat their dinner” etc. I give us a lot more time to find solutions together and don’t rush them out the door or tell them to stop doing something immediately.

How can I value my husband for who he is without letting him hurt our children? He can be very gentle and loving too but usually when they are behaving the way he wants them to. Our daughter is able to play the “good girl” for most of the time now when she is with him but our 6-year-old son is much more emotional and extreme in his feelings and expressions which drives my husband crazy. I really don’t know how to improve these situations. Do I step back and let them have their own relationship without interfering? Or protect my children more?

I told them one day that their father was raised in a very strict way too because that’s what people often did back then, and that’s why he often gets so angry now (he used to smack them sometimes when they were younger but I didn’t tolerate that and he stopped, although he still thinks that a little smack isn’t that bad). I hope I didn’t make my husband sound like a monster. He has many wonderful sides too but the “parenting thing” seems to be something we can’t find any solution to. Thank you for your input!

Amy’s Question (from Virginia) [TIME: 16:52]

Hello, ladies. I first want to say what a blessing this podcast is to me each week and how grateful I am to all of you who contribute to its production. My question is about sharing the parenting philosophies embodied in unschooling with people who are not currently home or unschooling.

I have 5 children, ages 27, 24, 17, 16, and 14. We naturally fell into a respectful parenting paradigm as we saw that traditional parenting seemed to fit the description of “when you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, that is the definition of insanity.” We are Christian parents who see our kids as our neighbors and friends and apply the lessons we learn in scripture about loving, caring for, honoring, and helping others, not just to those outside our home, but firstly to those inside it. We absolutely love the relationships we have with our teens, and don’t believe that the “typical rebellious teen years” are a given in raising children. It breaks my heart to see my nieces, who or just starting out on this adventure we call motherhood, share the struggles they are having with their kids, and just getting the same old traditionally authoritarian advice from other parents, that isn’t working for any of them. The same goes for hanging out with other parents of teens and listening to them lament their struggles, but then all agree they just need to be tough and survive it.

Are there any books, podcasts, or other resources you can direct me to, so that I may share them with other parents who might want more from their parent/child/teen relationships?

Anonymous Question (from the UK) [TIME: 34:47]

We have been unschooling our 2 children for almost all of their lives (they had just 2 years in school) and my children (now 13 & 10) have been thriving in terms of personal growth, passions, interests, knowledge, skills, making decisions, learning about life and the world and relating to others, knowing who they are and what they like and dislike. In themselves they’re content with the choices they have in their daily lives, within the constraints of our personal situation. We’re always offering new opportunities and possibilities to them, which they are free to choose from. We make family decisions together about our home, pets, meals, holidays etc. But they haven’t really made a strong connection with the local home education community here, which we did have in previous towns and I guess they are looking now for a sense of belonging. They feel they belong in our family and enjoy doing stuff together but struggle with finding their place in our local neighbourhood, despite trying various groups and voluntary work.

All around them they see children going to school and having that sense of belonging and experiencing something together. It’s in the media too. My teenager chose to go to school for a short time recently to make local friends and gain more independence (because we have to travel to home ed gatherings)…She achieved her goal and left school again having made a group of nice friends she can hang out with several times a week. I was so happy for her. Now she is thinking about getting qualifications and is considering school again…it seems easier to her to go and do all the qualifications together with the new friends in one place than taking an alternative unschooling route with some online courses, self-study, tutoring or home ed classes etc. although we have explored all these options and they are all feasible. She knows the pros and cons of school and how much anxiety it caused her when she went there briefly but seems to have really bought into society’s belief in this one route to getting qualifications…Now she is trying to persuade her younger sister to go as well, telling her she won’t learn anything or get a good job if she doesn’t. The youngest has started to consider school.

I feel disheartened. If we had a local unschooling community that they felt they connected with and were supported by perhaps they would feel more confident to be exploring this alternative way of life. It is hard for them to swim against the tide and be different! They just want security and to fit into society as they see it. My youngest child has a few good friends but she admits that she struggles to make new ones and she would like to. She doesn’t like going to the local home ed groups and when we do she is unwilling to join in or even make any attempt to interact with the other children. I want to respect her wishes and not force her to go but she has a dilemma.

I’m not sure going to school full-time at the age of 11years is the best thing for her but I want to support her in making friends and doing what she thinks is the best for herself. I fully entered into the spirit of supporting my older child’s choice to try school but I felt quite disillusioned by the whole process and somehow don’t feel I’ve got the energy to face it again with either of them but that doesn’t seem fair and I feel in conflict because I want to supportive but find that hard if I don’t really agree with the system.

Help! We’ve agreed that perhaps their dad could go through the school process with them this time and that seems fine with them but I feel like I’m letting them down if I don’t get involved and I feel like I’ve failed them in some way by not being able to help them meet their needs through unschooling. Maybe I’m being too idealistic? How do I balance my opinions with theirs? How can I be honest with my youngest daughter about how she feels and how she can get her needs met without influencing her? How do I convey the message to them both that they are loved for who they are and valued whatever they choose and that success can mean different things to different people, but also be true to myself when sometimes I have strong feelings about their choices?

Thank you for your help. I listen every week and am inspired, encouraged and motivated by your wonderful chats.

Marianne’s Question (from Southern California) [TIME: 53:25]

Hello ladies. The other day at the market my son, 9, wanted to write the number on a label for a package of spices. I had already done so and didn’t realize he wanted to as he’s never expressed interest in writing at all, let alone at the market. After being a bit upset, he said again, “I really wanted to write the number.” So I said, “how about we put on a new label and you can write it there.” He said, “ok.” So he tried to write it and the way he was holding the pen, ink wasn’t coming out. I told him to hold it upright and it might work better. He tried to write a “7” but it looked like an oval. He said, “I’m so stupid.” I said, “how about I hold your hand and we can write together?” He said, “Okay.” We did it together and he said again, “I’m so stupid.” And he started to cry. I got close to his face and told him, “you aren’t stupid, you’re learning. I can use your help on writing the label for the tea, can you help me?” Again, we did the same thing, amongst a few tears. He didn’t want anyone to see his tears so we faced away from others. And then I asked him to help with dispensing the almond butter and things got better.

Hearing “I’m so stupid” is disheartening. He’s never been interested in writing, nor have I asked him to do copywork or practice, etc. Only asked him to write his name on his Dad’s birthday card to which I had to show him how to do the letters.

I’m wondering if his statement can mean that as a parent I don’t praise his positive traits enough? Like he’s looking for a, “you’re not dumb” “you’re so smart” from me? Or, are his internal doubts and struggles about learning troubling him? He sees other kids writing at our weekly parkday. I’ve told him I can help him with whatever he wants to learn. Is the weight of learning weighing him down? He’s not a reader and when I or my husband try to write letters down to help him with an online code or command he says, “I don’t want to learn!”

Looking for guidance and insight. Thanks for your generous support and perspective.

Links to things mentioned in the show

Elaine Aron’s book, The Highly Sensitive Child: Helping Our Children Thrive When the World Overwhelms Them

Parent/Teen Breakthrough: The Relationship Approach, by Mira Kirshenbaum and Charles Foster

Mary Sheedy Kurcinka’s book, Kids, Parents and Power Struggles

How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk, by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish

Kids Are Worth It! by Barbara Colorosso

Anna’s book list on her website

Pam’s blog post, Unschooling with Strong Beliefs

podcast episode 32, Choosing School with Alex Polikowsky

Pam’s blog post, Do Classes Hinder Deschooling?

Childhood Redefined Online Unschooling Summit

Anne’s website: shinewithunschooling.com

Anna’s website: choosingconnection.com

Episode Transcript

Read the transcript here

EU103: The Gift of Time with Milva McDonald

Milva McDonald unschooled her four now-adult children starting back in 1991 and this year she published a book of essays about their experience, Slow Homeschooling. We have a great conversation, diving into her family’s unschooling journey, how music has woven its way through their lives, unschooling’s gift of time, college, and lots more!

Quote of the Week

“The things that they chose pursue when they were older are very connected to the playing and exploring that they did when they were younger. And I feel like even as adults, that’s when we get the most joy out of life, when we’re getting that spirit of play into whatever we’re doing.” ~ Milva McDonald

Questions for Milva

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

What did your family’s move to unschooling look like?

Music has been a big thing in your family. I’d love to hear how it has woven its way through your lives over the years.

I really enjoyed reading your book, Slow Homeschooling. In one of your essays, ‘The Gift of Time,’ you share that your kids benefited hugely from the simple availability of time. I found that as well—I think that turned out to be one of the most valuable aspects of our unschooling lifestyle. Can you share some of the benefits you saw?

Similar to the gift of time, but still distinct, solitude is also so valuable, isn’t it?

Over the last decade or so, homeschooling has grown enough in popularity that we’ve become a market for a wide range of educational products, beyond the typical curriculum-in-a-box. And while increased options are wonderful, I think they can also prolong our deschooling, including the philosophical journey to appreciate the remarkable value of large swaths of free time in our family’s lives. Have you seen this as well?

I really enjoyed your essay, ‘Do Kids Have to Go to College?’ and I’d love to chat about that a bit. I think my favourite line was, “There’s a certain amount of irony in play when homeschooling parents expect their kids to take a traditional path.” Can you explain what you mean by that? And how has college woven into your lives so far?

You’ve co-written a fiction book called Unschoolers. What inspired you guys to take on that project?

Links to Things Mentioned in the Show

Milva’s book, Slow Homeschooling

And the fiction book she co-wrote with Sophia Sayigh, Unschoolers and their website, unschoolersbook.com

Milva’s website, apotlucklife.com

Episode Transcript

Read the transcript here

 

EU102: The Value of Relationships with Rachel Rainbolt

Rachel Rainbolt is an unschooling mom of three and author of the book, Sage Homeschooling. We have such a fun conversation, diving into her family’s move to unschooling, how connection and relationships are at the core of learning, technology, micro-adventures, and lots more!

Quote of the Week

“If you are filling in all that space for them then there is no room for them to fill it in for themselves. If you are occupying all of their time, and telling them what things they are to focus on, then there is no room for them to grow into that space! You both can’t occupy it simultaneously. Once you have fully surrendered to the trust, there’s all of this space for them to blossom and to fill in and to grow into and take hold of, and then there’s just so much magic that comes from that.” ~ Rachel Rainbolt

Questions for Rachel

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

What did your family’s move to unschooling look like?

As you were deschooling, what did you find was the most challenging paradigm shift?

I really enjoyed reading your book, Sage Homeschooling, which is about your unschooling lives. In it, you have a whole chapter about connection and how relationships are at the core of learning. Can you explain what you mean by that?

In my experience, when we talk about the value of relationships to learning—and in our lives—parents sometimes take that to mean “more is better” and they focus on adding lots of social activities to the family calendar. But it’s not about quantity, is it?

Technology is often a hot button issue for parents as they move to unschooling—they perceive it as disconnecting, as taking away opportunities for connection. Can you share your family’s experience?

In your book, you talk about “micro-adventures.” I thought that was a great term because I think the adventure mindset is a wonderful way to approach our unschooling days—it evokes an open and curious approach to the moment. It was a lens we used a lot when my kids were growing up—even going to the local conservation park was an adventure, “What will we find today?!” How do you guys find adventure?

Links to Things Mentioned in the Show

Rachel’s book, Sage Homeschooling

Pam mentioned Maslow’s hierarchy of needs

Rachel’s website, sageparenting.com and her Facebook page and Instagram

Episode Transcript

Read the transcript here

EU101: Deschooling with Heather Lake

Heather Lake and her family began unschooling in January of this year, 2017, and she has been blogging about the experience. I really enjoyed chatting with her about how the journey has been unfolding so far. We talk about what prompted their move to unschooling, how her relationships with her children have changed since they left school, the hardest part of the journey so far, and lots more.

Quote of the Week

“It’s like, you read it in theory, especially when you’re starting out—the kids will learn from the world around them—but it surprised me to actually see them learning totally on their own, with no direction or force; no force at all. I mean I knew it was supposed to happen but to actually see it happen, it’s amazing.” ~ Heather Lake

Questions for Heather

Can you share with us a bit about you and your family?

How did you discover unschooling and were there any particular concerns behind your family’s decision to move to unschooling?

How have your relationships with your children changed since you began unschooling?

How is the transition to unschooling going for your husband? Does he work outside the home? How are you sharing the process with him?

Is there a question or challenge that you’re working through right now?

What’s been the hardest part of your unschooling journey so far?

What has surprised you most about your journey so far?

Links to Things Mentioned in the Show

I’d love to learn how I can better help you on your unschooling journey! Please participate in Pam’s 2017 Survey (open until December 14, 2017)

Heather’s blog, Learning at the Lake House and Facebook page

Episode Transcript

Read the transcript here

 

EU100: Q&A Round Table

I take a few minutes to reflect on 100 episodes and my unschooling work, then Anne Ohman and Anna Brown join me to answer listener questions. This month we answer questions about when to share our perspectives on stereotypes etc, supporting a young adult while moving to unschooling, anxiety around technology, and helping a partner understand unschooling.

I’d love if you could take less than 5 minutes to complete my 2017 survey!

And, as always, you’re welcome to submit your own question to the Q&A Round Table.

Listener Questions

Jen’s Question (from Florida) [TIME: 7:20]

I’m curious about your thoughts on bringing up & discussing difficult topics and beliefs with very young children. Here’s what happened today, though it’s not the first time I’ve thought about it. My son (2) got a Lego Peter Pan set as a gift awhile ago. He loves playing with the Peter Pan & crocodile figurines, so we thought he might enjoy seeing the movie (which he did) but the movie has lots of racist & sexist ideas in it, and I wanted to let him know that I don’t agree with those things about it, but I also don’t want to give him a lecture he’s not interested in! He’s so young that he doesn’t really have the language for in depth discussions of these things. After the movie tonight, I asked what he thought and he just said, “There’s a crocodile in there.”

So, I’m curious how you would share thoughts about something like racism and sexism and outdated stereotypes? During the movie when it’s happening? After its over? Not at all if the child doesn’t seem to have noticed it? I’ve thought about this in other contexts, like in stories when adults are dismissive of children, or use punitive discipline, etc. Its so frequent that what I believe about parenting and about people differs from the mainstream, that I feel like I need to put my voice in there to keep my son from getting all his ideas about social norms from sources I don’t agree with!

Thanks for your thoughts & ideas!

Jessica’s Question (from Ireland) [TIME: 24:27]

Let me start by saying how much I appreciate the work you three are doing. We would definitely not be as far along on our unschooling journey without you!! And we certainly wouldn’t be deschooling with as much joy and kindness without your frequent gentle reminders. I am so grateful for you three women.

I have three beautiful children. An 18-year-old daughter, a 12-year-old son, and a 3-year-old son. I also have a wonderful, handsome, supportive (if kind of skeptical of unschooling) husband. I am an American who moved to Ireland at age 20, met my husband, and have been here 20 years. I have no family here and not very supportive in-laws. It is a tiny community and I will always be an outsider. I was told as a child I was too sensitive, too dramatic, cried too much. I spent my 20’s trying to be perfect, so afraid to make a mistake, my mother-in-law looking for any reason to speak unkindly about me to my husband. I had no guidance except my own and I had been told mine was lacking. I second guessed every move I made. 20 years ago it was very expensive for me to phone my mother or sister for support, I did it sometimes, but with guilt over the cost. There was no Skype or FaceTime. I was very isolated and lonely. My husband and I stumbled through many obstacles and have made it through the other side stronger and with a much better relationship.

However, my daughter was born during this time. With a mother who was angry, lonely, never good enough (in my own eyes). I slowly got better, and she grew with me. I say we grew up together. But she lived through harsh, unkind times. My older son is the one who brought me first to homeschooling then unschooling. We’ve been completely deschooling since May. His story is for another day.

Today I am concerned for my daughter. She went to school all the way through. Her high school years were absolutely awful, she was so desperately unhappy. I had no idea I could bring her home. I finally offered to homeschool/unschool her last year of school, because that’s when we found it and started our journey, but she declined because she had come so far, she might as well finish. We have always had a very open relationship, even when I was being the authority in the house. But here is my question. She was out of the house working and spending time with friends most of this past summer, and has now gone to college in the big city of Dublin.

We haven’t seen her very much, and all these months that she has been mostly away, the home lives, and personalities of my sons, husband and myself have shifted SO DRASTICALLY, for the better, as we move deeper into unschooling. We are different people!! It’s wonderful, but I feel she has been short changed. She missed it all. There is no do over, I can’t change the past, but how do I make the future better?? She is going through so much change. New college classes (she’s going to acting school, and loves it!!), new place to live, a big city to learn to navigate, a new job, etc.

Now I, her mother, her rock, have changed too, for the better, but I’m not the same person. She is needing to relearn how our relationship works now too. It’s so much. She is very sweet, and good and just giving everything to this new chapter of her life. I am kind to her, supportive, help her with any problem she encounters. She frequently calls and asks for my help, and I use those opportunities to show her how amazing she is. Our relationship is good.

I wonder what more I can do for her. She struggles with anxiety over making mistakes and the need to be perfect. She got this from watching me!! She gets panic attacks and has a hard time making decisions. It’s like her brain freezes and fear takes over. I would love for her to be free of this, and I realize it takes time. Do you have any suggestions of other things I could do to help? She is slowly trusting the new ways, she sees how much better things are, and I have spoken to her in depth about all of these things.

If you have any words of wisdom or advice of any kind I would be so, so appreciative.

Abby’s Question (from Chicago, Illinois) [TIME: 39:45]

We live in Chicago with our 3 and 6-year-old boys. We are pretty new to unschooling, but enjoy reading Sandra Dodd, John Holt and listening to your podcast.

We have been trying more and more to let go of rules/control, focus on our children’s interests and cultivate nurturing relationships with them. The majority of the unschooling philosophy resonates with us, but we are struggling in one area in particular: screen time with our 6-year-old.

I really want to let go of the regulating and not be this person in his life who is just there to say, “yes” or “no.” I want him to be able to learn to regulate himself, but I harbor my own anxiety about the hours that he is at the screen. He mostly plays games on his personal tablet or watches videos. But he is not like my 3-year-old who will watch or play on his tablet for a couple of hours and then move on to other things. My 6-year-old can be on his tablet or watching TV all day.

When it is time to go somewhere he is able to turn it off and engage with us in an activity, he does have other interests and moves in and out of things like researching sharks, but if we are at home it is what he most wants to do. He will talk constantly about it, say things like, “I only want to play with my tablet,” or “All I can think about is my tablet.” I try to engage with him in other activities at home like Legos or games, but this usually only lasts a few minutes before he is asking for his tablet again. When he is overwhelmed or anxious he asks for his tablet, sometimes he says, “the only thing that can make me feel better is my tablet.” It makes me sad and anxious to hear him say that, like his tablet is his only way to manage his feelings.

Sometimes I feel like on the days that he is on his tablet a lot that later on he is extra cranky or has trouble falling asleep, sometimes saying that he can’t stop thinking about the games he plays. (Or is it all in my mind?) We are all very close, he is a very sweet and kind boy. He is very sensitive, to the point of some sensory processing issues, but nothing that interferes majorly with his functioning. Just something that I pay attention to and try to help him learn how to manage.

So, is the tablet thing solely my own anxiety that I need to address myself or is there anything to the growing body of evidence that there are negative effects to being at screens for multiple hours a day? Do I go totally hands off and not worry that there is long term negative crutch-like relationship being formed with his tablet? Or is there ever a time where some limiting and parental management is a good idea?

Thank you for your time.

Anonymous Question [TIME: 57:30]

I’m a dad of two awesome kids 3 and 5 and recently came across unschooling. While I’m continuing to learn more about it, I’m having trouble enacting what I’m learning. I’ve always been considered the “easy going” parent, and I get a lot of push back from my partner saying I’m just being lazy and letting them walk all over me. I don’t feel like that at all. To me, I’m trying to let them learn and explore how when and where they want.

It’s become a source of discord among us, but when I try and teach her what I’ve learned, I’m told that since I’m away all day I don’t know what really works. She also went to school for education and feels that her studies make her the more qualified patent when it comes to teaching the kids. I disagree with the traditional style of parenting and see huge differences in their behavior depending on how their being parented.  My son in particular struggles with traditional boundaries of specific meal times and bed times and both often turn into hour long crying sessions as he’s forced to stop playing and conform to what’s convenient. I also have concerns for my daughter who is in kindergarten and already counts down to the weekend. I hate to see them both struggle every day.

Occasionally my partner will recognize the difference in behavior, but just chalk it up to them missing me during the day, and not because I let them dictate their own behavior and preferences.

I’m not sure what to do going forward. I feel like unschooling is something both kids need, but I’m not sure how to give it to them without the ability to be a stay at home parent or change my partners views.

Thanks for any insight, Struggling Dad.

Links to things mentioned in the show

You can support the podcast through Patreon

Pam’s new small press: Forever Curious Press

find out about the Childhood Redefined Online Unschooling Summit

take less than 5 minutes to complete Pam’s 2017 Survey (open until December 14, 2017)

Pam’s blog post, Unschooling With Strong Beliefs

Anne recommended the movie, My Neighbor Totoro

Alison Gopnik’s book, The Gardener and the Carpenter: What the New Science of Child Development Tells Us About the Relationship Between Parents and Children

Scott Noelle’s Daily Groove emails

Pam blog post, Learning is Learning No Matter Your Age

podcast episode 93 with Robert Gottlieb

Anne’s website: shinewithunschooling.com

Anna’s website: choosingconnection.com

Episode Transcript

Read the transcript here

EU099: Book Chat with Emma Marie Forde

Emma Marie Forde is unschooling mom to two girls, Lily and Rosa. She’s also the founder of the website, rethinkingparenting.co.uk. Before having children, Emma was a clinical psychologist, a career that informed her choice to stay home with her own children and to choose unschooling.

In this episode, Emma and I have a great chat about the book, Escape from Childhood: The Needs and Rights of Children.

Quote of the Week

“They [children] need love, stability, consistent and unequivocal care and lasting relationships with people who are profoundly enough interested in them to look after them with warmth, gaiety, and patience.” ~ John Holt

Escape from Childhood: The Needs and Rights of Children , by John Holt

Emma and I wanted to discuss the concept of childism and how it weaves into our unschooling lives. And though it was written more than 40 years ago, and though he doesn’t use the term “childism” itself, in discussing the needs and rights of children he points out many of the prejudices against—or destructive attitudes toward—children and discusses ways we can instead welcome them into our adult lives. It’s a great book around which to frame our dive into childism.

Here’s the basic premise, taken from the book description: “Under the guise of care and protection, children are kept in the walled garden of childhood, outside the world of human experience, for longer periods than ever before in human history. But for many children and parents, the walled garden of childhood is more like a prison, where authorities compel and limit personal actions.”

The first half of the book looks at the bigger picture, where Holt talks about the problem and institution of childhood, the family and its purpose, the competence of children etc. In the second half of the book, he dives into ten rights he would like to see children gain and clearly explains his perspective and reasoning: the right to vote, to work, to own property, to travel, to choose one’s guardian, to a guaranteed income, legal and financial responsibility, to control one’s learning, to use drugs, and to drive.

I think this quote does a great job of summarizing his perspective:

“Children tend to be, among other things, healthy, energetic, quick, vital, vivacious, enthusiastic, resourceful, intelligent, intense, passionate, hopeful, trustful, and forgiving-they get very angry but do not, like us, bear grudges for long. Above all, they have a great capacity for delight, joy, and sorrow. But we should not think of these qualities or virtues as “childish,” the exclusive property of children. They are human qualities. We are wise to value them in people of all ages. When we think of these qualities as childish, belonging only to children, we invalidate them, make them seem things we should “outgrow” as we grow older. Thus we excuse ourselves for carelessly losing what we should have done our best to keep. Worse yet, we teach the children this lesson: most of the bright and successful ten-year-olds I have known, though they still kept the curiosity of their younger years, had learned to be ashamed of it and hide it. Only “little kids” went around all the time asking silly questions. To be grown-up was to be cool, impassive, unconcerned, untouched, invulnerable.”

When I talk about our unschooling journeys, I often mention how our children can be our very helpful guides—and it’s for exactly this reason: these are wonderful human qualities that we have lost, that we have learned to keep hidden, that we see in our children. So much of our unschooling journey is about excavating these traits so we can once again fully engage with our lives.

Throughout the book, John Holt reminds us to focus on our common ground as human beings; that the institutionalized distinction between children and adults adds an artificial layer that makes it harder for adults to connect with children, to truly see things from their perspective.

And that’s our loss.

Links to Things Mentioned in the Show

The book: Escape from Childhood: The Needs and Rights of Children by John Holt

Elisabeth Young-Bruehl’s book, Childism: Confronting Prejudice Against Children

Pam mentioned our book chat about Attachment across the Lifecourse

Emma mentioned the book, Sanity, Madness and the Family, by R.D. Laing and Aaron Esterson

Emma mentioned Teresa Graham Brett’s podcast interview, and her book, Parenting for Social Change

John Holt’s chapter, On Seeing Children as “Cute”, excerpted on The Natural Child Project

And another excerpt from the book, from the Steps to Take chapter

Emma mentioned the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child

Emma’s website: RethinkingParenting.co.uk and her Facebook group, Radical Unschoolers Discussion Group

Episode Transcript

Read the transcript here