Chaos Reading discussion
Books & Reading In General
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Pet hates (for grumpy old gits)
Mod
Then again, I haven't seen the actual comment, so I will hold my rage in check.
Hi Ruby, You asked us if we had read any of the books.I looked at most of the titles in your list and I presumed you favored a certain genre that Vonnegut is not in. I was pointing that out. A reader might not know who Vonnegut is without being stupid. It did not occur to me whether you had read all the book pages. I was trying to be helpful, not score points. It seems like a pretty hostile environment around here.
Mod
Ahhhhh. I just saw your post on that other thread. The reason I started this group was to talk with other people who value a diverse range of books across a diverse range of genres.
I generally only buy ebooks if they're cheap, or unavailable in harcopy. If it's a book I really think will be wonderful, I'll buy it in hardcopy to keep lovingly on my real bookshelves. I tend to buy a lot of horror/zombie ebooks because they are what's cheap and yet still quite possibly enjoyable. The more decent "literary" stuff (and I hate that distinction) tends to be more expensive, in which case I'll invest in a hardcopy. I'm much more likely to take a chance on something if it's cheap, and not taking up shelf space.
Which brings us back to the original point. This is a group of people who devote a not insignificant amount of time even just talking about books. We value books. That doesn't mean everyone thinks that books have to cost a lot to reflect the value to the reader, or to make the writer enough money in the longer-term to feed themself.
Personally, I think Derek gave some sound advice. Unknown writers would be wise to price their ebooks cheaply to prompt more people like myself to take a chance on them.
Mod
An alternative strategy is for unknown writers to price their books competitively against the price of known writers and keep producing quality to show that price is justified. My ebook novel is coming out on December 20 and my hard copy is on Australia Day, 2013 I am not saying what it is because I am not sneaking in promotion. These are important questions which beg discussion without rancor.
Ruby wrote: "See that?! Didja? I didn't even remark on the whole "hostile environment" thing. My Valium must be kicking in then......... time for nigh nighs......."I'm restraining myself as well. Or trying to.
If I were "well off" I'd not worry, but living on a fixed income (and they fixed it good, LOL) I have to take price into consideration.
Just to go off on a different tangent.....I hate it when authors decide to take YEARS to finish the next book in their series....and us the poor reader are left....waiting...waiting....waiting.....(kinda like Buhler...Buhler...Buhler) and there your are, the poor reader... melancholy...and nothing looks good to read and you end up reading crap for your next book....
Mod
I don't really mind it if the books in a series can stand on their own, but it infuriates me when a writer decides that they're going to do a trilogy and just leave things hanging so that people will buy the next book. It's so cynical and insulting to the reader. It's particularly maddening when the book is something you were loving up until that point (yes I'm looking at you Mira Grant and Justin Cronin). Then you have to decide whether to boycott the book to make a point, or give in and read it while being acutely pissed off at the same time!
Mod
Ruby wrote: "This is the reason I haven't started A Game of Thrones!I don't really mind it if the books in a series can stand on their own, but it infuriates me when a writer decides that they're going to do ..."
Ruby, I was actually referring to the Game of Thrones...and I can think of a few other fantasy series that I read years ago that did the same....FRUSTRATING!!!
Ruby wrote: "This is the reason I haven't started A Game of Thrones!I don't really mind it if the books in a series can stand on their own, but it infuriates me when a writer decides that they're going to do ...". I am through book four of this series. The time lapse between three and four was so long that I had to go back and reread three when four came out and I have completely forgotten the beginnings of all these conflicts. At times I have wondered if he will finish this series in time for me to read it......
Jennifer wrote: "Just to go off on a different tangent.....I hate it when authors decide to take YEARS to finish the next book in their series....and us the poor reader are left....waiting...waiting....waiting........"*cough*Gentlemen Bastards*cough*
Whitney wrote: "Bernie wrote: "We need to get away from this crazy idea that eBooks are expensive. A $10 eBook provides 24 hours of entertainment. A great thing about the internet is that a lot of cool stuff is f..."At the Amazon royalty rates you will make more by selling 2000 books at $3.99 than 5000 books at $1.99 because the 70% royalty rate kicks in at $2.99.
Like everything else in the world a book is worth what the buyer is willing to pay.
Riona wrote: "*cough*Gentlemen Bastards*cough* "I disagree. You introduced me to Gentleman Bastards, I believe, so no doubt you had to wait longer for subsequent books than I did, but I felt that Lies of Locke Lamora worked as series novels should. We had a plot that resolved quite well, but left the possibilities open for further (mis)adventure. Of course, you're bitter that we didn't meet Sabetha at least in the first two books (haven't got to the third), even though she's mentioned every few pages, but there's no annoying cliff-hanger.
Derek wrote: "Riona wrote: "*cough*Gentlemen Bastards*cough* "I disagree. You introduced me to Gentleman Bastards, I believe, so no doubt you had to wait longer for subsequent books than I did, but I felt that..."
I know there's no cliffhanger (and I appreciate that), but I just want MORE. I'm impatient.
Riona wrote: "I just want MORE. I'm impatient. "Well, yes. And now I see why I haven't got to the third, since it doesn't actually exist yet, but because everything has been tidied up (except Sabetha) I won't lose sleep waiting for it. It may even go completely off my radar if it takes long enough.
Pet hates having absolutely NOTHING to do with reading:
1) Most of the human race
2) Miss America
3) Sunlight
4) Christmas
5) Birds tweeting
6) Alarm clocks
7) Goth kids
8) Disc jockeys rattling off the wind chill factor
1) Most of the human race
2) Miss America
3) Sunlight
4) Christmas
5) Birds tweeting
6) Alarm clocks
7) Goth kids
8) Disc jockeys rattling off the wind chill factor
Dr. Detroit wrote: "Pet hates having absolutely NOTHING to do with reading:1) Most of the human race
2) Miss America
3) Sunlight
4) Christmas
5) Birds tweeting
6) Alarm clocks
7) Goth kids
8) Disc jockeys rattling o..."
I gotta admit I'm with you on most of those. "Sunlight" depends on time of day. We use blackout curtains in our bedroom: morning sunlight makes me feel like a vampire. I love birds "tweeting", but the $%^&*()_!!! Mourning Doves drive me nuts.
As for the human race, all the decent ones are on Goodreads, and even a few of those are a problem.
One of my pet peeves in writing is the description of "a shock of hair". This is used an extraordinary amount in novels, and really means nothing. I do not get a sense of the individual characters hair with this, I just pass on by and fill in the hair with well whatever. Is it bed head? Is it Final Fantasy hair? Both I guess are shocks of hair. A definition yields "[S] a large and noticeable mass of hair". But this fails as a desciptor because of the genric overuse of it.
Alan wrote: "I grew up having stories told to me, not read, but made up as they were being told, and then forgotten, replaced by a new story the next time we got my father to sit down long enough to make one up. This is how story-telling used to happen, but then literacy reared its head and things started getting written down."I really don't think that's true. Pre-literate societies often make a great deal of accurate retelling of stories. Of course, they morph slightly over the generations, but apparently sometimes less than written stories in the age when they could only be copied by hand, but making them up new every time would not be the norm.
There's a very good reason why good grammar and spelling counts: bad grammar and spelling takes you out of the story. For the same reason, story tellers in pre-literate stories always told the story the same way. If you have kids, you know it: you're reading Goodnight Moon for the gazillionth time, and you start winging it because you know it so well - and then you and your child are jarred out of the story when she says: "Daddy, that's NOT how it goes!"
That said, it's generally not bad spelling that causes me to give an indie writer a bad rating, it's bad plotting, and editors help with that too. Sorry, but I don't believe there are many authors (especially, first time authors) who can _afford_ not to have an editor (and I do, often, give indie authors a read - at least one per month, which is far more books - of any kind - than the average person reads).
Alan wrote: "Derek wrote: "We only know the past from written histories, so all we can do is hypothesize about forms of oral traditions in terms of day-to-day past lives (I did some historical research on a r..."
That's simply not true (the hypothesizing, not the fact that we only know from written histories). There was a great deal of work done, as late as last century, on story-telling in pre-literate cultures, so it is known. After all, we were still finding pre-literate cultures in Borneo/New Guinea and the Amazon until quite recently. Even in North America, plains and northern cultures were not literate at the beginning of the 20th century.
"You wouldn’t find the same thing in visual art,..."
I think you would - breaking into any form of art is difficult for the unknown artist. Sure, you see the "extreme" adjacent to the great masters, but you're making the point that many of the "great" modern authors are producing garbage, too.
As for “can’t afford to if you want to feed the kids”, I maintain you can't afford to feed the kids on the income you can make from unedited books. This is _my_ big pet peeve, these days. Why does everyone think you need to spend a thousand dollars (you're not the first to throw that number out)? I've never maintained that you need to find a professional editor (though, a good one is worth her weight in gold), you need to find other eyes. So much that is wrong in most bad indie writing is stuff that any _other_ literate pair of eyes could catch, but it's impossible to see your own errors sometimes, because you read what you meant, not what you wrote.
So, find some people on Goodreads who have reading tastes that fit your work, and ask them if they'd like to provide feedback for a pre-release copy. Find some who you _know_ will be hard on you (you don't have to agree with their feedback, or even be willing to change what you wrote: what you do have to be willing to do is consider their feedback seriously). If you get five people who provide genuine feedback, and pay attention to it, your work is far more likely to feed your kids. If you can afford it (maybe you really can't), put $20 into those readers' Amazon, Kobo, Smashwords, etc, accounts if they give you the feedback within two weeks. That's not "pay", it's just enough reason to get your book to the top of their reading pile. If you find someone who's really helpful, pay them more, and try to develop it into a real working relationship.
Alan wrote: "I'm not sure, but there seems to be a drift from the general "one" to a specific "you". "
No, not at all. Consider every use of my "you" to be replaced by "one" (except for one single parenthetical expression, which really was referring to "you"). I was giving advice (worth every penny it costs) to any writers who might be reading.
I get your meaning about the visual arts - but I'm trying to demonstrate that it is in fact exactly the same with writing.
Mod
I think you're making up straw men for the sake of a dubious argument. I have never heard anyone say this. I have never seen it written by anyone, especially not in this group. Maybe you need to stop hanging out with idiots if you're hearing it repeatedly. And the "some can’t stand anything too far outside the norm" schtick is just snark.
You wouldn’t find the same thing in visual art, where the extreme (unmade beds) sits equally (in the mind of many) with the great masters of the past (if only spatially, in the same galleries and museums)...."
Are you kidding? You hear plenty of criticisms of crap amateur work in the visual arts. Not all unmade beds are created equal.
When I criticize a book for its grammar, I am not talking about split infinitives or the occasional spelling error or misuse of the apostrophe. I am talking about things that make a book nearly unintelligible. Yes, there are lots of good books that have unconventional grammar, made up words, etc., but those are books with intentionally unconventional grammar. I agree with Derek on the need for proof-reading. There are plenty of amateur writing groups where people help each other with editing as well as the other avenues he mentioned. If a writer can't be bothered to do the leg-work on the basics, I can't be bothered to read them.
Pet hate...humm, let me see. Oh, I know! Turning a lighthearted thread where there were lots of laughs and turning it into a convoluted, long running obsessive argument??????I'll think that over.
Mod
Good grief .."
Uh, yeah. Brilliant response, Charlie Brown.
Mod
We only know the past from written histories, so all we can do is hypothesize about forms of oral traditions in terms of day-to-day past lives (I did some historical research on a r..."
Utter bollocks. Oral storytelling is alive and well in remote Australian communities. There are story cycles still in use that describe megafauna!
Ruby wrote: "Alan wrote: "Derek wrote: "We only know the past from written histories, so all we can do is hypothesize about forms of oral traditions in terms of day-to-day past lives (I did some historical re..."
I love that you use "utter bollocks" . We Americans have lost some good words!!
Mod
I'll think that over."
I'm happy to have healthy debate here, but I do get tired of the writers who play professional victim attacking modern readers for not appreciating them correctly.
I'm with Mike on the issue of convoluted posts too. I have so many more interesting things to do that trawl through this stuff looking for the point.
Mod
It gets the job done :)
Mod
I'm sure you knew the point within the first 1/2 sentence. I swear, if you and Mike hadn't called BS on the whole thing I'd have gotten the "misunderstood genius" cri du cœur within 3 more posts!
Whitney wrote: "You hear plenty of criticisms of crap amateur work in the visual arts. Not all unmade beds are created equal."Well, now, I'm one of those who'd say they are :) I love the Monty Python "Penultimate Supper" sketch: "Look, I'm the bloody Pope! I may not know much about art, but I know what I like!"
....and no ever expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Mod
Well, now, I'm one of those who'd say they are :) ..."
Hey, my unmade bed is a work of unmatched aesthetic brilliance! That's why it would be wrong for me to make it up in the mornings.
I always wondered why make it when I was just going to mess it up again that night...pet hate: busy work.
I hate it when your adoring family needs your attention and a most pivotal point in a book. And then your all mad because #1. you have been uninterrupted. #2.Your adoring family deems you insensitive to their needs (you care more about that stupid book). I mean if they had just listened in the first place when you said; "5 more minutes". jeez.
Jennifer wrote: "I hate it when your adoring family needs your attention and a most pivotal point in a book. And then your all mad because #1. you have been uninterrupted. #2.Your adoring family deems you insensiti..."Jennifer, how "adoring" can they really be if they're going to interrupt your reading? I think they're faking it (badly).
Mod
Oh, yeah, good one - people who think that if you're reading a book, it must mean you have absolutely nothing else to do, and you will therefore be eternally grateful if they start chattering at you about minuscule details of their day.
Mod
That. SO that.
Derek wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I hate it when your adoring family needs your attention and a most pivotal point in a book. And then your all mad because #1. you have been uninterrupted. #2.Your adoring family de..."Ok, maybe I should have used the term...needy. Thats it.my needy family!!
Whitney wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I hate it when your adoring family needs your attention and a most pivotal point in a book. And then your all mad because #1. you have been uninterrupted. #2.Your adoring family de..."OH, but never mind that point in the book is not minuscule. They just don't understand the 5 more minute concept.
Ruby wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I hate it when your adoring family needs your attention and a most pivotal point in a book. And then your all mad because #1. you have been uninterrupted. #2.Your adoring family de..."So I LOVE LOVE that picture. I want to steal it!
I hate lazy authors who blurt their points instead of guiding us through an experience to the point (50 Shades of Grey comes to mind).
I hate when a book is oddly sized, making it uncomfortable to hold when reading in bed.
I hate sitting in my cubicle at work, clock-watching, because I'm in the middle if a good book and I need to get out of there so that I can continue reading. But then sometimes I just pull the book up on my computer kindle and read right in the middle of the workday.
I find I simply cannot wait until I read the whole thread (which seems to have been mired in the treacle wells of semicolons, for some reason. Really? that's what irks you? oh well) I suppose parenthetical notes to the reader are out as well.anyhow, my pet peeves, in no particular order are:
1. Overuse of the word "Reverie" to bring your character back from a flashback. I'll allow only ONE per novel, and I'm not all that thrilled with that many. It bothers me because it throws me right out of the story because, in my opinion its saying, "I, the writer, have no idea how to effectively transition from a flashback to the present without using this bandaid of the word 'reverie'. Further, I've been raised by wolves and exhibit other examples of bad breeding" Ok, that last bit was me being rude. But SERIOUSLY, the reader doesn't need the bandaid, or if they do, it highlights a PROBLEM on the author's end, and should be rewritten.
2. Jargon. You know who you are. If the first several pages of your book introduce more than 4 examples of jargonized speech, I'm not really going to be listening beyond that. I think its proper to introduce one nonstandard term or expression per two pages, and give us a few runs at it in context before hitting us with another one. Maybe I'm grumpy, at that, but as a good example: Bester used "jaunt" instead of "teleport", used it often, in understandable context and it was organic to the plot. GOOD USAGE. Bad usage is when the author says something like "The omniruus were geflacting in the protobiotruss, which caused a shringtone backawackating of the surrambulated gelfetefishin process drive" NO NO NO. Don't do that.
3. Bad character names. Characters whose name could never be pronounced, or are too confusing to be read: (note I'm using a semicolon) like T'at'q%in-cotalhwryzxxx-xatflmnt. I'm going to call them "Tat" in my mind so you might as well cut to the chase and call them Tat to begin with.
This also includes names too obvious or cutesy. Like naming your monk Preacher and the assassin Killer. (yes, I've seen this done). I've said elsewhere that all you have to do find GREAT character names are to notice what your spam emails pretend they're being sent from. Cool, usable fake names for free. Less insistent, but similar: try to use names that seem plausible in the world of your story.
4. Separate characters with all-too-similar names or descriptions. You know who is bad at that? "She had blonde hair in a braid and a rosebud mouth" Some of your already know who I'm talking about. That describes 89% of the female characters in that series, Mr. Jordan.
Or if the names are too similar, and charisse, charlene, christy and chantale are in the same high school, I ain't never gonna keep track of who said what. Seriously. Be more kind to your readers.
5. When the beginning of the book is ALL exposition or worldbuilding before anything freaking happens. Or, the main characters are described like a complete bio with all their defining details and history before they even speak one word or do one thing. C'mon, that's frustrating AND boring at the same time. If you've painstakingly built a world, don't painstakingly drive it into my head with a pain stake. Reveal it a little at a time. Let me digest it. Wait 5 chapters before I know he has a limp because a wild boar (not a wild bore) ran him down in a hunting accident. Start with just the limp. Make me ask myself "why is he limping?" for five chapters.
ok, this is probably more pet peeve than anyone needs, so I'm done.
Mod
Excellent list of rants! ALL of these have annoyed me at some point, even though I never really noticed the overuse of 'reverie' before (NOW I will, dangnabit!). One addendum to number 5, yes to the no to endless exposition, but I do hate it when the author goes the other way and drags some bit of information out like an elementary school game of "I've got a secret". Reminding us endlessly that so-and-so has a limp and it makes him an object of derision and there he is tripping on his way to the outhouse again and WOULDN'T YOU REALLY LIKE TO KNOW WHY HE'S LIMPING? Too bad, because I'm not going to tell you until I taunt you with your lack of knowledge 17 more times.
And in defense of the semicolon haters, it is 'Pet Hates for Grumpy Old Gits'. I think there's an implied permission to be cranky about the minutia of life that annoys us, no matter how small. Like those damn kids who are always on my lawn!
Whitney wrote: "Excellent list of rants! ALL of these have annoyed me at some point, even though I never really noticed the overuse of 'reverie' before (NOW I will, dangnabit!)."Yeah, sorry about that. Now you will be cursed as I am, by the word "reverie". I find it in to many books. It's like when a friend pointed out to me the burned "dots" in the upper right corner of movies, which were hints to the projectionist the next reel needed to start. Once you know that, you can't unsee them.
You make an excellent point about point 5, yes, the other direction IS bad as well, good observation.
which reminds me of a number 6, then. The manipulative overuse of "red herrings" in mysteries. I prefer it be a mystery because the clues are, well, mysterious. Not because for 800 pages a case is being made for the butler and then its the solicitor who was only mentioned once, on page 5, for a paragraph. THAT'S BLATANT MISDIRECTION, not a mystery. It's like working at a complicated equation on the board, and then one second before the test is up, the teacher says, "oh, wait a minute, that should have been 5X not 5Y" and erases that part of the board and replaces it with the correct variable. IF there is no way for me to have unraveled it, except by cheating on the author's part, This infuriates me.
And kids don't get on my lawn anymore. I planted poison sumac. So who's a grumpy git now?
John wrote: "If you've painstakingly built a world, don't painstakingly drive it into my head with a pain stake."Dying over this sentence.
Chaos Reading
Books mentioned in this topic
City of Saints and Madmen (other topics)A Song of Ice and Fire (other topics)
The Eye of the World (other topics)
A Game of Thrones (other topics)
The Great Hunt (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Sidney Sheldon (other topics)Robert B. Parker (other topics)
Guy Gavriel Kay (other topics)
Terry Goodkind (other topics)
Brandon Sanderson (other topics)
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What Kindle selection? And what does this have to do with Slaughterhouse-Five? I'm so confused.