SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion
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A Game of Thrones
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On the fence with a Song of Ice and Fire
Robert, I suppose my comment does need some elaboration. Well, I've only read three of the malazan books and the first four of the song of ice and fire series. I like both of them a lot. Out of all the fantasy series, these two are at the top. Both have dull parts and both are comfortably long. The reason I chose malazan over ice and fire is because the dull parts in malazan are less dull than in ice and fire. I understand that lots of information is given in these dull parts and I should be paying attention to them, but that's how I made my decision on these two outstanding works.
Well, thanks for elaborating more on your comparison, and I think I need to definitely need to put checking out Erikson and Hobb on my to-read list. Dawn, Hobb's books seem interesting and imaginative enough, but what makes them stand out to you? I've always considered reading his farseer trilogy, but always ended getting distracted with another book/series.
SOIF isn't the best fantasy epic ever written. But he does make you care about at least some of the characters, and makes you hate some others, and does some things a lot of writers wouldn't. He tends to get wordy, talks about details too much and often not very well (his descriptions of meals are terrible, for example, they don't make you want to eat the food the way Steven Brust does, but he includes them constantly). He seems to try to be realistic from a linguistic perspective, but one result is a lot of very similar names that make it hard to keep the enormous cast of characters straight (at least for me).
I think part of the problem is Martin is actually a teleplay writer writing novels. The TV show makes it a lot easier to keep everyone straight, since you can see them, and eliminates all of the descriptive passages, but unfortunately also leaves more than half the story out.
In the end, it all comes down to the fact that this thing is just so damned BIG.
Kind of really off topic, but sure, have you read the lost gate by orson scott card?
Robert wrote: "Kind of really off topic, but sure, have you read the lost gate by orson scott card?"Okay, I'm going even more off topic. Lol. I started that book and didn't care for it. Will read it later though. But have you read Pathfinder? I really liked this one. Science fiction-fantasy.
Robert wrote: "Dawn, Hobb's books seem interesting and imaginative enough, but what makes them stand out to you? I've always considered reading his farseer trilogy, but always ended getting distracted with another book/series..."I don't know. Sometimes you read a series and it comes alive. It was such an emotional experience, and they were beautifully written.. It just had that "it" factor for me.
I was fascinated with the first three GTH books, but thought the fourth book was a whole new (and not very good) skew on the main story. I've preferred to not read the fifth book, mainly because of the opinions from friends who I trust. I think I'd rather finish the series in my imagination, rather than be as disappointed at they were.
Linda wrote: "I was fascinated with the first three GTH books, but thought the fourth book was a whole new (and not very good) skew on the main story. I've preferred to not read the fifth book, mainly because o..."Same here, Linda, although I do pick up Dance of Dragons here and there to see if it gets better. So far, the consensus is no. It doesn't. I can't keep up with the constant new characters and that the series doesn't seem to go anywhere. I hate to leave anything unfinished though so hope to finish one day!
My husband is desperately trying to get me to read these books. He keeps talking about them to me. My father-in-law is hooked on the TV show. I tried the first page, and then sort of closed it and didn't really go back. The premise doesn't interest me at all, and I'm not one for high fantasy, so... I know what you mean. :)
I've been suggested the Game of Thrones books (Song of Ice and Fire, I guess?) so many times I feel like I HAVE to read them now, but I'm REALLY reluctant, as I've got bad epic burnout thanks to the Wheel of Time (made it to the third book before head went 'splody) and Sword of Truth series (Am I the only one who noticed how much Goodkind ripped off Jordan? Anybody?)(Also, if I wanted to read an Ayn Rand novel I'd read a freaking Ayn Rand novel)(Yeah. I have issues with Goodkind. I could go all night long if I wanted...)Anyway...how much like WoT and SoT is this series?
Song of Ice and Fire has a very, very different tone than WoT. It's darker, more violent, and the lines between good and bad are not so clear-cut. After the third book the pace does slow down quite a bit but not nearly as bad as WoT gets. Haven't read Goodkind because of all the bad things I've heard about him. If you're hesitant maybe check out the TV series. The first season follows the books very closely and if you're not into it after the first few episodes the books probably won't be for you as well.
I think I'm going to have to watch the TV series now, after reading through this discussion. I tend to avoid TV in general, but you're making it sound like a tighter portrayal of Martin's vision than what he actually wrote, and that really interests me. I read the first two books and then found my enjoyment fading away. I think it was a combination of not much actually happening in the plots and the grayness of the characters. Er, to qualify...a lot does happen in the various plots, but it never seems to be that momentous. Rather, just a lot of wandering around, getting captured, escaping, getting recaptured, etc. I started thinking, what am I reading, a history of Lancaster and York?
As far as the gray, I don't mind that sort of thing in general (that's what most of life is about), but stories seem to read smoother if there's a deeper underpinning of more precise black and white to provide structure to the gray.
I bet that was as clear as mud. Okay, I'll stop now.
Chelsea wrote: "I've been suggested the Game of Thrones books (Song of Ice and Fire, I guess?) so many times I feel like I HAVE to read them now, but I'm REALLY reluctant, as I've got bad epic burnout thanks to th..."Not sure how Ayn Rand and Goodkind compare except that both are heavy handed with their morality and politics. Other than that completely different theme, style, characters and plot.
Aaron wrote: "Chelsea wrote: "I've been suggested the Game of Thrones books (Song of Ice and Fire, I guess?) so many times I feel like I HAVE to read them now, but I'm REALLY reluctant, as I've got bad epic burn..."Well, Faith of the Fallen is Terry's version of The Fountainhead.
Jackie wrote: "The Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel KayThe Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss
You can look here for more titles: http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/50...
Good luck"
@Jackie - Excellent suggestions on Guy Gavriel Kay. I love his books. I would also suggest Tigana and The Lions of Al Rassan. And, Name of the Wind is wonderful, as is its sequel. Really looking forward to the third book in this series.
Robert wrote: "I just finished A Game of Thrones by George RR Martin and find myself sort of disappointed. The book was interesting and I found the storing particularly
engaging at the end, but the only reaso..."
I loved A Game of Thrones and the two books that followed. However, I gave the most recent book, A Dance with Dragons, about two stars. I feel pretty angry about how sloppy A Dance with Dragons got, particularly after Martin has demonstrated that he can write really tight complex plots and fleshed-out characters. I felt that GRRM created an unwieldy mess with Dance with Dragons. It started with Storm of Swords and continued with Feast for Crows. He did nothing to resolve the various cliff hangers and only added to the mess by creating more meaningless characters and trite plot twists (I really was not impressed with the baby-switched-at-birth component - how many times has this been done?) Basically, I felt as if DWD was 1000 pages of characters you know (and may love) and characters you don't know and don't care about doing nothing but traveling (literally - yes, they do nothing but plod along dirt roads for 3/4 of the book). I, for one, have decided that I am probably done with GRRM/ASOIF. I gave up on Robert Jordan and Frank Herbert. And, sadly, I think GRRM is headed that way too.
Harpmary wrote: "I really was not impressed with the baby-switched-at-birth component - how many times has this been done?"But is it really true? I didn't think that was clean cut at all. He could just as well be The Mummer's Dragon.
I think splitting A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons into two groups of POVs that take place in parallel might not have been the best choice after all. I wonder if cutting some POVs and subplots (Quentyn Martell, anyone?) might've enabled them to keep the story linear. Especially since ADWD continues on a little after AFFC left off. Why wasn't that put into The Winds of Winter? I suppose it was a difficult decision to make, but hopefully we'll now go back to the serial format.
See that's what worries me about my book. It has been compared to Game of Thrones by reviewers, and there seems to be a lot of negativity surrounding those books, so I'm like, I hope people don't assume that mine is similar in that regard.I did try to read book one, but I just cant get away with it.
I could think of a lot worse fates than having people assume your book was similar in any way to Game of Thrones. Seen how many copies of that have sold?
Harrison, if there seems like a lot of negativity in this thread, it's because this turned into a thread on the flaws and weaknesses of the books. Many of which are valid to be sure. What's also sure is that there are a lot of great things about the books too. You could do far worse.
Back to LOTR. Fourth time, too. BTW, Jackson's movie version holds no comparison at all. Tolkien's words are like a roast beef and pint o'Guinness to a starving man! Jackson's films are like second string commercials with lots of high priced special effects, even though Andy Serkis deserves an oscar.
I bought all the Song of Ice and Fire books on my Kindle in anticipation of a month traveling with little access to books. I started reading Game of Thrones on the plane and almost gave up because it was so full of cliches -- snow, wolves, bad queens etc. Having no other choice at the time, however, I kept reading and by the middle of the book was firmly enthralled. I read all the books in the space of a few weeks and enjoyed them in a giant, fluffy, fantasy binge. It was a soap opera, although I think if I'd had to wait years in between them, as many earlier readers did, I would have been very annoyed because there are so many characters that it's hard to keep track of them. By the time I got to the latest book, however, I was quite annoyed because Martin doesn't seem to have tied up many threads. Instead, they just keep going and going. At this rate, I don't know if he'll ever finish the series.
Will I still read it? Yes, if the next book comes out before I forget what happened.
Yangsze wrote: "I bought all the Song of Ice and Fire books on my Kindle in anticipation of a month traveling with little access to books. I started reading Game of Thrones on the plane and almost gave up because ..."My feelings precisely, only I find myself increasingly decided that I'm not going to read the next one in any event. I'll pick this series up again if I hear that something's really happening.
When the next one comes out, I plan to read the Wikipedia summaries of the previous ones, since I've forgotten most of the plot points and many of the characters. Then I'll either buy the next one or get it from the library.
Harpmary wrote: He did nothing to resolve the various cliff hangers and only added to the mess by creating more meaningless characters and trite plot twistsI have a feeling that when the series is complete, ADWD and AFFC are going to be seen as important books that do a lot to add to the series.
But right now, I'm completely turned off, and not planning on reading more until the series is done. I'm fine with killing off characters, and doing a believable switch from evil to good etc (Jaime's about the only character I'm still interested in), but I would have thought that making Tyrion and Jon boring was impossible. And Dany...she was irritating enough in the first 3 books, but a little of her certainly does go a long way. I know people who just skip every Dany section now, and seem to still be liking the series quite a bit. Maybe at the last minute Thomas Covenant will sweep in and the two of them can fight it out for most unlikable fantasy hero ever :-)
I agree completely. It was slow and uninteresting for so long.
I would like to weigh in on this too! I read all the ASOIAF books in one go and was hooked from the beginning to the current end.I like the fact that the characters are not black and white. I for one love the Dany sections of the books and looked forward to her chapters.
Tyrion, Jon and Jaime were my favourite characters.
I would say it is not necessarily the best set of books I have read but it is up there!
I know this is sacrilege, but I didn't love the first book. I read it all and just found it so slow and too detailed. I love Tolkien, so I don't mind detail, but this was just too much. Descriptions of every minor character's doublet and what color embroidery it had, etc, etc. I had to drag myself through to the end and couldn't get invested in the characters really. I really enjoy the show though. I normally hate doing this, but I think this is one instance where I'm going to let myself just enjoy the show and not read the books. They are such an investment and I have so many other books on my to-read list!
I am looking forward to Season 3 in a little over a week...
I am not as overly impressed as others I guess when it comes to this series. Maybe in the beginning but the last two books have left much to be desired for me. Still good but not over the top in the manner the first books were. Not to mention there is the frustration with the amount of time between each addition but that's a whole other topic that is touching upon more writers and publishers than just Martin. I'll continue to read them because I think we all seek that conclusion but more than anything I am hoping the stories improve.
I'm not a huge fan. I read the first two before it became as huge as it is (not saying that to be all hipster, just for context) and was gripped by them.By the middle of book three, two things became obvious:
1) Exactly what was going to happen, mostly by virtue of who hadn't died. What, early on, was clever, now only served to narrow down what could happen, and make it obvious who was going to be there at the end. If...
2) It ever DID end. I am not optimistic. It's the Wheel of Time all over again. Some people love it (and there is still a good story somewhere in there), but when there are massive periods where nothing happens in the story (and you have to wait HOW LONG for that book), well, I just don't care.
-DESR
I really like this series and have enjoyed reading each one and love how George R.R Martin has made it his own with original and quite controversial scenes in it that have made the books even more interesting.
I believe that above somebody mentioned wanting to read something similar to ASOIAF. I would strongly suggest The First Law trilogy as well as the subsequent 3 standalone novels after the trilogy (Best Served Cold, Heroes and Red Country) by Joe Abercombie. They are fantastic. Subjectively you will find many similarities to GRRM's material. The characters are not black and white. He certainly loves the NC-17 rated stuff . And the world building is pretty awesome . Where they are different(mainly) is that while GRRM has 8 million subplots and throws a torrent of characters at you , Abercrombie's story is pretty straightforward and simple . He will remind you of GRRM but you will not have to so as much thinking which is fun sometimes , but other times its nice to know exactly where you are going and what you are doing. Also , for the record , Robin Hobb is a SHE not a HE.
Agent wrote: "I believe that above somebody mentioned wanting to read something similar to ASOIAF. I would strongly suggest The First Law trilogy as well as the subsequent 3 standalone novels after the trilogy ..."I just finished The Dragon's Path which is the first in a series, which I found to be similar in some ways to Martin's series. The author, Daniel Abraham, has collaborated with George R.R. Martin on other works and so after I discovered this it was obvious why I had found so many similarities. I loved Martin's series, and though I've only read the first book in this other series (The Dagger and the Coin) I very, very much enjoyed it and recommend it to anyone, especially if you like Martin's stuff. Not quite as gritty, but very character oriented (the titles of the chapters are of the particular character on focus in each chapter, just like in ASOIAF), plus some other similarities I won't spoil.
As for ASOIAF, as I said I loved the series, I've read all of the books and eagerly (and very impatiently) await the next instalment in the series. I'd tried to get my mother hooked on the television series, but she told me, "that's not really my kind of show." But, I told her to read the first book in the series and the next time I spoke with her, she had finished Books 1 and 2 and was in the middle of Book 3 in the series - she loved it and finished all 5 in record time (though, strangely, she still doesn't have any interest in the TV programme). I loved that the books were long and filled with myriad characters, many of which we follow in detail through the books. I loved the focus on characters and the author's excellent character development, and I especially liked each chapter belonging to a particular character. How much longer do we have to wait till the next book is out?!?!
One that I always thought would be similar to Martin was Dorothy Dunnett's A Game of Kings. This was an old book, from the 70s I believe, that was set in Scotland. I never got around to reading it, it sat on my shelves for years before moving forced me to get rid of it. Might be worth a look for anyone wanting something new.
I read a Dragons Path. Liked it a lot. My only issue with it was that Abraham introduces like 1434 races of beings which was very confusing. Far beyond elves, dwarves, Hobbits, ents , orcs and men.I dug it though for sure . Really enjoyed how he (Daniel Abraham) incorporates the banking and financing aspect of war. I read it like 2 years ago and forgot a lot of it. Recently grabbed the second book "a Kings blood" but I find I have forgotten most of the story and it sucks because I can't find a decent wiki or book summary on the web anywhere .
I also downloaded the Long Price Quartet for a future read . I sure wish I knew somebody who could give me a character by character recap of A dragons Path (my email is Matthewnpetri@gmail.com) **hint hint hint*** lol
So rather than continuing the thumbs up/thumbs down conversation -- why do y'all think A Game of Thrones etc. are so successful? I haven't read them in quite a while so my memory's a bit fuzzy, but here's what still stands out to me. Other hugely popular epic fantasy series (like Robert Jordan Wheel of Time and David Eddings' Belgariad) had appealing but simple and relatively unchanging characters, and tended to paint whole groups or nations with the same brush. Martin uses many of the fondly familiar fantasy conventions (Have you ever met an epic fantasy series without nobles like the Lannisters scheming away? Haven't you seen 'barbarians'like his before?) but has some characters that stand out as exceptions to the general rules of these groups. Most of his characters are unusually individual for epic fantasy. They're complicated, they all change over time, and they all make colossal mistakes. You can't count on anyone to be consistent. I think what's most unusual about Martin is that absolutely no one and nothing is safe. Whether you think the frequent death of main characters is brilliant or a cheap trick, I definitely think it keep readers riveted, because you really don't know what will happen next.
I definitely think it keep readers riveted, because you really don't know what will happen next. "I'm the opposite. He uses so much foreshadowing it's often pretty clear to me what will be coming. (If you go back and re-read the books a second time you'll see what I mean). There's also a certain amount of history worked in there (During The War of the Roses... The Black Dinner in 1440. I'll say no more to remain spoiler free)
I do think that the individual characters are a huge hit though. You care about every single character. You might wish that they die a slow, horrible and painful death (Cersei, Joffrey, etc...) but you CARE nonetheless.
As you read or watch the series you're rooting for Arya and Dany, you're cackling with glee at the schemes that Varys, and Olenna are hatching, you want Joffrey and Cersei dead so badly you're ready to jump into the pages and strangle them yourself! You wish so badly that Sam will make it back to the wall safely with Ginny and that the baby will make it- the only one of his brothers that will live. Even if you're not a mother you can sympathize with Catelyn, and no matter what side you root for you can appreciate Tyrion's wit.
read The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson
The Way of Kings might be a nice read if the sequel were anywhere on the horizon, but Sanderson is working other projects. I also think there was too much repetition in the plot. That book could have been a couple hundred pages shorter, and no one would notice.
Agent wrote: "I read a Dragons Path. Liked it a lot. My only issue with it was that Abraham introduces like 1434 races of beings which was very confusing. Far beyond elves, dwarves, Hobbits, ents , orcs and men..."I've read half of Daniel Abraham's 4-part series "The Long Price Quartet" (#1 A Shadow in Summer; #2 A Betrayal in Winter) and I have #3 and #4 on TBR, along with Abraham's newer novels. What can I say, I enjoy his stories! Gritty enough to not be considered fluff, but kinder to the reader's feelings than George R.R. Martin's Game of Thrones series.
Deedee wrote: "I've read half of Daniel Abraham's 4-part series "The Long Price Quartet" (#1 A Shadow in Summer; #2 A Betrayal in Winter) and I have #3 and #4 on TBR, along with Abraham's newer novels. What can I say, I enjoy his stories! Gritty enough to not be considered fluff, but kinder to the reader's feelings than George R.R. Martin's Game of Thrones series."Thanks, Deedee, that's very good to know. I read The Dragon's Path and liked it very, very much, and my reaction was just as yours was to The Long Price Quartet, similar to GRRM, but less gritty (but not "gritless"), and with your recommendation and almost identical assessment of Daniel Abraham's writing, I'm going to have to run out and get The Long Price Quartet and read those books too. Very good to know indeed!
Stan wrote: "The Way of Kings might be a nice read if the sequel were anywhere on the horizon, but Sanderson is working other projects. I also think there was too much repetition in the plot. That book could..."
I agree ... but it should have been a 500pg book. Overwritten, slow, and pretty dull ... the last 150-200 pages were better (if largely predictable) but no sequel for me :-(
I'm churning through a game of thrones since I like the tv series so much. I have robin hobb and Sanderson on my list. Any other recs? Abraham or first law series?
I highly recommend the First Law trilogy as well as the 3 subsequent standalone novels . I also highly highly fully and completely recommend the Kingkiller chronicles. Also Brent Weeks' Night Angels trilogy is fantastic.
Finished all of his (George Martin's)available books. Wow, very long tales but worth reading. But where is the story taking us? Every time I get into a character something baleful happens. Is there anyone left? Even the minor characters are disappearing at a rate of knots. following the current thread - Ian Irvine's Well of Echoes is a very good read.
David wrote: "Finished all of his (George Martin's)available books. Wow, very long tales but worth reading. But where is the story taking us? Every time I get into a character something baleful happens. Is there..."That's one of the main things that's often mentioned with George R.R. Martin's books. Anyone can die at anytime it seems. I like that, but when you really come to like or even love the characters that get killed, it can hurt a bit.
Those shocking moments are one of the reasons I've read the Song of Ice and Fire 3 times each except for the last one, which I really do need to get a better perspective on now that it's been awhile since it was released. There were a lot of good scenes in the book, but I was just left feeling a little let down. Perhaps my expectations were too high.
David wrote: "Any news on his next instalment?"I don't know. What season is it on the TV show? I would expect it to come down to the wire. The book comes out a month before they need to start shooting it.
Wikipedia says he had 400 pages in October 2012. It also says that Martin expects to do about "500 manuscript pages" each year. Doesn't seem like a lot. Probably 2015 in the summer would be my guess.
David wrote: "Finished all of his (George Martin's)available books. Wow, very long tales but worth reading. But where is the story taking us? Every time I get into a character something baleful happens. Is there..."I think I remember Martin joking during some old interview that his last book would be a thousand-page description of snow falling on graves.
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
A Game of Thrones (other topics)A Betrayal in Winter (other topics)
A Shadow in Summer (other topics)
A Game of Thrones (other topics)
Tigana (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Daniel Abraham (other topics)George R.R. Martin (other topics)
Arthur C. Clarke (other topics)
Peter V. Brett (other topics)
Guy Gavriel Kay (other topics)
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Just kidding.