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message 301:
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Will
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Oct 15, 2012 03:44PM
And you still have yet to answer why, if God desires us to know the truth (1 Timothy), and has the power to, then why don't we?
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Do you totally trust and claim that all science text books are factual and unbiased? That peer review would not possibly let something faulty in? Or stay in?I bet you'll say "Yes" and you haven't even looked into it? OR are you aware of these problems?
This is why talking about science is always a waste of time: neither of us are in a lab or testing anything - yet we are arguing truth that neither of us has touched.
Neither YOU (or anyone else) has been to the sun - yet you trust all scientific claims about the sun. Even though they are biased guesses based on adjustable data. Is this testable science? Not fully.
Same goes for dating the earth and origins of creation. just backwards glances and guesses that are not fully testable.
Science is great - but be careful what you assume is truth. Biased data manipulation is not truth. Hitler loved science: how'd that work out for him? Was that truth?
rod quote:" Bibles aren't hard to get."
It's true that you can't go into any bookstore and purchase one in many oppressive countries. But there are Christian churches and Bibles being pumped into these countries at all times. You just need to know who to ask.
If a country chooses not to allow God into their nation: God will step back - and allow these people to live without his blessings and protection (or morality). Then strangely enough - the world complains to God that these poor poor people are suffering unjustly.
Just like in Matthew 27:25
"And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”
Look what happened to these people a generation later. You get what you ask for.
And if you ask for God - he will deliver. Awesome eh?
Everything you just mentioned is fully testable. Please, either learn what you are trying to discard, or just say it straight up that you have no desire to even seek the truth. If a peer reviewed journal had bad science in it, it would be rejected immediately. Every scientific paper is subject to scrutiny including and especially its citations and evidences and methods. You like to throw around these words. Biased guesses. Adjustable data. Biased data manipulations. Haha. Whats next, biased human adjustable data errors. Hahaha You're just saying words to try to make science out to be what it is not.
"Hitler loved science: how'd that work out for him? Was that truth?"More buzz words. Do you really think that what you just said here makes any sense? Really?
"If a country chooses not to allow God into their nation: God will step back - and allow these people to live without his blessings and protection (or morality). Then strangely enough - the world complains to God that these poor poor people are suffering unjustly"People suffer unjustly in EVERY country, with or without Bibles. And there are MANY countries and societies that are not oppressive yet don't have easy access to Bibles. Papua New Guinea at the top of my head (they might be poor, but they are not oppressed).
I don't think it makes any sense to you. Why would it?Science is great: i'm just aware of its limitations. AS time goes on some of these limitations change.
Here's a challenge for you Will:
How many scientists are skeptical of evolution? Have a look. I dare you. Even amongst some evolutionary scientists there are a variety of opinions. Are you dumb enough to think that everyone is in full agreement? Maybe you are.
I'm just saying: please be a little skeptical. You sound completely faithful and blindly loyal to the corporation of science. That's just funny. :D
Lol, no real scientist is "skeptical of evolution." They might be skeptical about the details. How a certain species evolved, for example. But Evolution is accepted by every major scientific academy out there. In 1991, a Gallup poll found less than 5% of scientists believe in a creationism. And that was in '91. With the emerging evidences in genetics and other fields, it's not wrong to speculate that this number is much lower now. And 5% is hella low as it is.
Will wrote: ""but for me, I need to believe, because otherwise the thought that this earthly existence is it, whether it's for 1 year or 100, isn't enough."That's really sad. I'm sorry to hear that. Personall..."
But, Will, I don't find it sad at all. It gives me great hope to know that something even better will follow my life here. I used to feel somewhat as you seem to, that an eternity of existence must somehow be boring, but my understanding has deepened over time. I really like the view of heaven that CS Lewis writes at the end of the final Narnia book, The Last Battle. I am hopeful for an even more marvelous adventure some day.
It gives so many other hope to. This is called wishful thinking. It's a big reason for why Heaven is such a popular idea, but that doesn't make it any more real, and it's sad that you need that belief in order to have hope. I will live on in the memories of my loved ones and in the words and poetry I write. That is good enough for me.
You've inspired me Will:I'm going to do some research into Peer review and how it applies to science and business and the media. I can already think of a few problems...money makes the world go round.
One problem is that real scientists are busy doing real science: not babysitting everyone else's possible conclusions. I've read books and articles by many scientists who disagree with Stephen Hawking - yet he goes on playing the same song for whoever cares to listen. Who is peer reviewing him? Same goes for Richard Dawkins: who exactly goes around peer reviewing his endless babbling about science and religion? No one. Real scientists are too busy doing important things that they can actually test and put their OWN name on. The world of medicine is a fascinating place to look at peer review: I'll start there.
But i'll have a look this field of excellence. just for you. :D
Dawkins has never written a scientific, peer reviewed article on religion nor do I think he's written one on evolution (I could be wrong on that; he very well might have on memes). He's just a science and evolution popularizer. In other words, he writes books to the laymen on evolution. Stephen Hawking hasn't written a peer reviewed article in quite some time.
Will wrote: "It gives so many other hope to. This is called wishful thinking. It's a big reason for why Heaven is such a popular idea, but that doesn't make it any more real, and it's sad that you need that bel..."Will,
We simply do not agree. I, and millions of others, do not see this hope as "wishful thinking".
Isn't it rather close-minded of you to keep insisting that your view is the only reasonable or possible one? I am not attaching negative labels to your viewpoint. Why don't you extend the same courtesy to me? Just because something can't be proven by science, doesn't make it worthless. You are intelligent enough to not have to resort to insults to make your point.
Yes, I don't see it as close-minded, because my mind is always open to evidence. If scientific inquiry into the human brain somehow discloses a possibility to an afterlife, my views will begin to change. With more and more evidence, my views could do a 180. This is not close-minded; however, it is the reasonable view to not believe in things that there is no evidence for. Heaven is the exact definition of wishful thinking. You want for it to be, so you believe in it.
Will wrote: "Yes, I don't see it as close-minded, because my mind is always open to evidence. If scientific inquiry into the human brain somehow discloses a possibility to an afterlife, my views will begin to c..."Call it stubborn, then, if you like, as you refuse to see my point. Notice I didn't say, agree with. I understand & accept your reliance on scientific evidence, even though I don't agree with your viewpoint. You show no evidence of being open to and accepting of others' views, at least on this topic.
I see your point and your views as I used to share them. Of course I don't accept it now, the same way I don't accept that there are elves in the North Pole.
If a country chooses not to allow God into their nation: God will step back - and allow these people to live without his blessings and protection (or morality). Then strangely enough - the world complains to God that these poor poor people are suffering unjustly.......The people of the UK have been 'stepping back' from God for many years now yet we show no signs of suffering more unduly than other nations do in this era.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/UK/religion.html
I found your claim that 'Bibles are hard to find' very amusing considering that the bible is one of the most widely published and widely read books in the world (second only to the Quaran). In the UK a Gideon bible is placed in the majority of hotel bedrooms and Gideon International claim that in 2011 they distributed 1.7 million free copies to 190 countries.
BTW Do you ever fly in an aeroplane or don't you believe aeronautical science either? Ditto your car? Millions of products we use with confidence every day are there because they have been invented by scientists, researched, peer reviewed, proven to work and produced.
'Clinton Richard Dawkins, FRS, FRSL (born 26 March 1941) is an English ethologist, evolutionary biologist and author. He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford, and was the University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008.'
'Stephen William Hawking, CH, CBE, FRS, FRSA (born 8 January 1942) is a British theoretical physicist and author. His significant scientific works to date have been a collaboration with Roger Penrose on theorems on gravitational singularities in the framework of general relativity, and the theoretical prediction that black holes should emit radiation, often called Hawking radiation.
He is an Honorary Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, a lifetime member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, and a recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award in the United States. Hawking was the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at the University of Cambridge between 1979 and 2009. Subsequently, he became research director at the university's Centre for Theoretical Cosmology.'
To suggest that neither of these eminent scientists are not peer reviewed is ridiculous. Critical reviews of their work abound amongst the very scientists you admire but whose work is less highly regarded universally. In the North of England we would say that you are 'talking up your neck and down your back'!
Will wrote: "I see your point and your views as I used to share them. Of course I don't accept it now, the same way I don't accept that there are elves in the North Pole."another snide remark. thanks.
Rod wrote: "How many scientists are skeptical of evolution? Have a look. I dare you. Even amongst some evolutionary scientists there are a variety of opinions. Are you dumb enough to think that everyone is in full agreement? Maybe you are."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_...
"Project Steve is a list of scientists with the given name Steven or a variation thereof (e.g., Stephanie, Stefan, Esteban, etc.) who "support evolution". It was originally created by the National Center for Science Education as a "tongue-in-cheek parody" of creationist attempts to collect a list of scientists who "doubt evolution," such as the Answers in Genesis' list of scientists who accept the biblical account of the Genesis creation narrative or the Discovery Institute's A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism. The list pokes fun at such endeavors to make it clear that, "We did not wish to mislead the public into thinking that scientific issues are decided by who has the longer list of scientists!" It also honors Stephen Jay Gould.
However, at the same time the project is a genuine collection of scientists. Despite the list's restriction to only scientists with names like "Steve", which in the United States limits the list to roughly 1 percent of the total population, Project Steve is longer and contains many more eminent scientists than any creationist list. In particular, Project Steve contains many more biologists than the creationist lists, with about 51% of the listed Steves being biologists."
Nancy wrote: "another snide remark. thanks."Actually, I was quite serious. I can't think of a better way to compare my belief in heaven then to compare it to my belief in a magical North Pole, viz., the same amount of evidence, belief in both were comforting, but I no longer accept it.
Thanks Gary. I'm not impressed by numbers. How many C.D.'s did Justin Bieber sell? Yes, numbers can be an embarrassment. If one scientist disagrees with a million and explains himself well - That is worth looking into.
How many people followed Hitler? A couple of million I assume. Interesting.
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This is great: I can sit back and watch Will and Madge duke it out. Should be fun!
I gotta agree with Will about the Bible availability in certain areas of the world. They are available but outlawed.
So what is the truth: Dawkins is just hot air or does he actually do science? Mostly he holds huge pep rally's for the gullible. He seldom even discusses science at some of these things - he just insults religions and those who disagree with him. (I've watched a few of them: hilarious!)
Madge and I are in agreement. The Bible is widely available in many countries. It is also scarce and not just outlawed, but not even available by any means (I gave one such illustration) in many others.Same with Dawkins. Scientists are allowed to write and speak their opinions about other things. He does not write scientific articles on religion because religions has no evidence. It's not science. Dawkins earned his place in science because of the science he has done in the past. He is still out there educating now. He isn't a young man any more (and neither is HAwking).
What! No fight? Too bad. :D
Rod wrote: "What! No fight? Too bad. :D"I've been following this thread for awhile and have to say you come off as an obnoxious closeminded jerk. Just my opinion. Doesn't seem as all your "knowledge" about the bible made you a kinder person.
Ruth wrote: Doesn't seem as all your "knowledge" about the bible made you a kinder person.Given all the cruelty and violence in the Bible, this isn't surprising!
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cru...
by "FIGHT" I of course meant dispute over factual claims. Relax...Ruth quote:
" Doesn't seem as all your "knowledge" about the bible made you a kinder person."
I don't recall ever claiming to be a representative of
Christian kindness. That is not my specialty or gift. I do have a very caring sense of humor though. :D
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The Bible is a book about Love and Justice, sin and salvation, Truth and Grace. Kindness is in there - but its not a main feature.
Maybe you foolishly assume Love is kind? Or that Justice is kind? Sin definitely isn't.
I'm not here to win an argument and make friends. I'm here to poke at an issue and see what people are made of.
Madge quote:
"Given all the cruelty and violence in the Bible..."
I too am surprised more people haven't realized this. Mankind without God is incredibly cruel and violent. The Bible records everything. It's wonderful when we can learn from others mistakes. (some of us...)
Okay Will,I've spent an hour looking into the world of Peer Review. It's embarrassing. What a mess based on financial greed and desperation to be published or lose careers.
And that's the general consensus coming from science professors and graduate students all over the world. (those who are raking in the dough seem to have little to comment.) I have yet to read from anyone who claims the system is foolproof and trustworthy. Except YOU.
But i'll keep reading some more. Very fascinating. It's especially amusing in the field of acupuncture and medicine. Money, money, money...
No system is foolproof and I doubt that Will thinks differently. What other system do you suggest?Please let us have the links to the 'world of peer Review' so that we can check too.
Rod wrote: "Here's a challenge for you Will:How many scientists are skeptical of evolution? Have a look. I dare you. "
Rod wrote: "Thanks Gary. I'm not impressed by numbers. How many C.D.'s did Justin Bieber sell? Yes, numbers can be an embarrassment. "
Goalposts; changed.
Rod wrote: "How many people followed Hitler? A couple of million I assume. Interesting."
Godwin's; fail.
Rod wrote: "Dawkins is just hot air or does he actually do science? Mostly he holds huge pep rally's for the gullible. He seldom even discusses science at some of these things - he just insults religions and those who disagree with him. (I've watched a few of them: hilarious!)"
Do preachers do science when they discuss religion? Do religions insult other people when they rant at them for being sinners in the street? Do they insult those that disagree with them and tell them that a 'loving' god is going to torment them for eternity?
Rod wrote: "The Bible is a book about Love and Justice, sin and salvation, Truth and Grace."
Love? - Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Justice? - Ephesians 6:5 "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;" (Note that in the Greek the word for 'servant' and 'slave' are one)
Truth? - 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"
Rod wrote: "Maybe you foolishly assume Love is kind? Or that Justice is kind? Sin definitely isn't."
Love is self-sacrifice and compassion, love is not the abuse of an owner or Lord. Justice may not be kind but justice should be just.
The biblical God creates humans, orders them not to find out right from wrong, lies to them about dying, punishes them for disobeying even though they did not understand the concept of 'wrong'. Through them out of paradise because he was afraid of them. Committed mass indiscriminate genocide of man, woman, child and babe in arms, all over the sins of their parents. Committed possibly the first recorded record of hostage taking and terrorism against the despotic ruler of Egypt by tormenting and killing the people that he had dominion over, even innocent children, and even deliberately "hardened pharoahs heart" to make sure he had the excuse to torment them more. Also he advocated warfare against neighbouring states and condoned the massacre of prisoners of war and the rape of women and girls.
Then as an encore set the world up so that redemption was only possible through the shedding of innocent blood and condemns those who do not partake in such barbaric sacrifice.
Rod wrote: "I too am surprised more people haven't realized this. Mankind without God is incredibly cruel and violent."
Mankind has not wiped out the entire population of the Earth bar a single family. According to the Bible god is guilty of the massacre of hundreds of thousands, the rape of their children, the enslavement of nations and the almost total genocide of the human race.
Mankind has yet to reach such levels of barbaric cruelty.
Madge quote:"Please let us have the links to the 'world of peer Review' so that we can check too."
It's called the internet. Its basically the same thing as written word. You can chose to trust it's validity or not based on your own personal biases and skepticism. Have a look around - You will find what you want to find. :D
All I ask for is a little skepticism in the areas of science. Science is wonderful - but it has issues.
Wow, you wrote a book Gary. I'll look at it all in a bit. I need Starbucks first."I don't recall God raping or ordering any rapes of children. Are you sure you read the same Bible?"
Gary quote:"Love? - Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father..."
Why did you put LOVE there Gary? Why not Justice, truth, sin or Salvation?
Gary quote:
"Truth? - 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"
You should of put Sin, Salvation, or Justice before this one.
You forgot to post the 1st part of that verse...the part that explained it all.
2 Thessalonians 2:10...........and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to LOVE the TRUTH and so be SAVED. Therefore...
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Gary quote:
"Justice? - Ephesians 6:5 "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters...(Note that in the Greek the word for 'servant' and 'slave' are one)
How is this a justice issue? There's a reason people are slaves and servants. Life sucks on occasion. We make bad decisions, our parents make bad decisions, generations of people make bad decisions. That is not a justice problem.
In Heaven there will be absolute Justice. but not till then. You are free to make as many bad decisions as you like. :D
Slavery is a SIN and SALVATION problem - on both ends.
Rod wrote: I've spent an hour looking into the world of Peer Review..............You will find what you want to find.What scholarship! What erudition! LOL.
For rape in the Bible see these few (there are many more):-
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Numbers 31:15-18
Zechariah 14:1-2
Samuel 2.12:11-14
This is fun.Will quote:
"I would be very surprised if I could convince this guy Rod (http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...) of anything at all. Yet I continue on. Why, I'll never know."
Keep up the good work will. Please continue on. But I warn you:
I've been chatting with atheists and people from all religions for 30 years. You are not saying anything that I have not heard many many times from atheists twice your age.
Honestly, one of my favorite pastimes is trying to side with people who despise and renounce the Bible from all walks of life. If there is a problem with Christianity I demand to know it! And I've found hundreds. But I've also found the truth.
Do you realize that everyone on this planet assumes they are correct? The only challenge you have is being honest with yourself. Good luck.
Madge quote:"What scholarship! What erudition! LOL."
I'm still looking into Peer Review. But it sure didn't take long to see alot of common problems. And I wasn't looking at I.D. or creationism. Just medical science and University Professor/student issues related to being published.
Don't get excited and have a heart attack just yet Madge. There's lots more fun we can have.
I've been chatting with atheists and people from all religions for 30 years. You are not saying anything that I have not heard many many times from atheists twice your age.Ditto from religionistas for 60 years. And I wouldn't call it fun.
A great list Madge. Lets have a look:Deuteronomy 20:10-14
No mention of Rape. Did you even read it Madge? Or is this just some generic list off a typical militant atheist website for disgruntled teenage Dawkin worshipers?
Numbers 31:15-18
Again, no mention of Rape. You can read Rape into these verses if you lustfully desire to do so. (Most atheists do). Whatever turns you on. But I think Moses would have a hardtime agreeing with you.
Zechariah 14:1-2
Do you own a Bible Madge? Did you read the whole paragraph? Did you read verse 3?
Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
The only thing God is responsible for is gathering nations against his children (Jerusalem). The evil Rape will be done by Pagan nations...probably some atheists too! It's okay to get excited here - there will be rape. But then God's justice will step in and stop it because it's evil.
Samuel 2.12:11-14
And people wonder why i'm not an atheist. Do you own a Bible Madge?
Do you realize the sexual exploits of these verses are the BADGUYS? And its not really rape. The women don't seem to be complaining.
This whole scenario is a punishment that God allows. Please read the whole story next time.
Keep trying...
I own several Bibles Rod and I have read it many times. I also own a couple of Korans and other religious books. Most atheists I know have read the bible thoroughly. You obviously do not understand biblical language if you do not know when rape is implied, like: 'They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance.'... 'But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder'...Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.... I will take your wives while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbour. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I [God] will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'....Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.'...and so on.
These are all verses in which God is approving and encouraging rape, 'a punishment that God allows' as you put it!! There are many more.
'It isn't rape because the women are not complaining????????' Women then had little say in such matters, they were 'given' to men as wives/slaves/chattels.
Rod wrote: "All I ask for is a little skepticism in the areas of science. Science is wonderful - but it has issues."Scepticism is science. (When properly done.)
However, scepticism is the thing that religion abhors, faith and belief are the voluntary suspension of scepticism and therefore there are a lot more issues there.
Rod wrote: "Wow, you wrote a book Gary. I'll look at it all in a bit. I need Starbucks first."I wish :-) I need more time and discipline.
"I don't recall God raping or ordering any rapes of children. Are you sure you read the same Bible?"
Ok perhaps indirectly, but God said to Moses, "Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people." (Numbers 31:1 KJV)
Moses the ordered them 31:17 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him."
Followed by; "31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
Now that's a pretty clear instruction from Moses to (as part as Holy Ordained Vengeance) to enslave and rape the maidens as War booty.
Nowhere does it say that God went "Woah, Moses, that's too far!"
Rod wrote: "Why did you put LOVE there Gary? Why not Justice, truth, sin or Salvation?"
You're right, it was also unjust. I then subsequently addressed most of the other words.
Sin and salvation according to Christianity though is all based on the concept of sin being disobedience to a master, and salvation in submission. I personally detest slavery.
Rod wrote: "You should of put Sin, Salvation, or Justice before this one.
You forgot to post the 1st part of that verse...the part that explained it all. "
I put truth(?) before it because this shows how the Bible is not about truth but contains many admissions to lies, and putting the justification for that lie in does not change the clear fact it was a lie.
Rod wrote: "2 Thessalonians 2:10...........and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to LOVE the TRUTH and so be SAVED. Therefore..."
Therefore God had the power to save or condemn and he used that power to make sure they were condemned. How disgusting.
Rod wrote: "How is this a justice issue? There's a reason people are slaves and servants. Life sucks on occasion. We make bad decisions, our parents make bad decisions, generations of people make bad decisions. That is not a justice problem. "
Yes it is. It is clearly unjust for the sins of a parent to cause punishment of their child. If you cannot see this then clearly the Bible is an extremly poor tutor on morality.
Slavery, whether despotic, economic or cultural, is the denial of reasonable freedoms to one person that another person can enjoy.
Rod wrote: "In Heaven there will be absolute Justice. but not till then. You are free to make as many bad decisions as you like."
So in heaven you won't be free? So you are talking about absolute injustice, forever enslaved to the will of a powerful being based on the premise that "might makes right".
Rod wrote: "Slavery is a SIN and SALVATION problem - on both ends. "
Yes. The story of Genesis proves that. God lied to try to keep Adam and Eve from knowing they were slaves, and then punished them for doing wrong before they could even understand what doing wrong was.
Freedom is biblical sin, submission is biblical salvation.
Oh and according to Romans 9:11-22 you are not "free to make all the bad decisions you like", for "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Romans 9:21 KJV)
So no, God in his infinite power made the worthy to be worthy and be rewarded, and then deliberately made the unworthy to then suffer punishment for breaking the rules that he made them break.
So actually, sin is not our disobedience, but God's made up crime so he has someone to punish.
That isn't just slavery, but slavery to a mad despot who deliberately makes people to then hurt.
Rod wrote: "Deuteronomy 20:10-14No mention of Rape. Did you even read it Madge?"
Yes because "taking women for yourself" just means to stick them in your collectors folder of women.
Rod wrote: "Numbers 31:15-18
Again, no mention of Rape."
Except the bit about taking women who have not known the touch of a man for yourself.
Rod wrote: "You can read Rape into these verses if you lustfully desire to do so. (Most atheists do)."
Proof please. Especially since most convicted rapists in the US are Christians.
Rod wrote: "Whatever turns you on. But I think Moses would have a hardtime agreeing with you."
Now I think you should read the bible!
Rod wrote: "Zechariah 14:1-2
Do you own a Bible Madge? Did you read the whole paragraph? Did you read verse 3?"
Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
The only thing God is responsible for is gathering nations against his children (Jerusalem). The evil Rape will be done by Pagan nations...probably some atheists too!"
Actually its a declaration of intent because he says it "will" happen, not it "may".
Rod wrote: "It's okay to get excited here - there will be rape. But then God's justice will step in and stop it because it's evil."
I'm relieved, thanks to God's infinite power no innocent woman will ever be raped...
Oh and if that doesn't work God will make them so they cannot get pregnant through rape...
Oops. That's a fail.
Rod wrote: "Samuel 2.12:11-14
And people wonder why i'm not an atheist. Do you own a Bible Madge?"
I don't. So far you have demonstrated a continued placing of your own belief above reason, rationale and even the bibles actual words.
Rod wrote: "Do you realize the sexual exploits of these verses are the BADGUYS?"
Yup, Moses and the followers of God seem quite evil.
Rod wrote: "And its not really rape. The women don't seem to be complaining."
That's disgustingly misogynistic.
Rod wrote: "This whole scenario is a punishment that God allows. Please read the whole story next time. "
So God is the rapist, or perhaps pimp?
I did read the whole story. I was a Christian when I started, I rejected Christianity as immoral and disgusting by the time I finished it.
Thanks Gary! Glad there is someone here other than myself who can read and interpret the Bible!
Rod wrote: "And its not really rape. The women don't seem to be complaining."This is particulary disturbing. And the vast majority of females not touched by men would have been CHILDREN as described by the bible, not women as asserted by you, but why let a little thing like the actual words in the bible bother you.
Rod wrote: "And its not really rape. The women don't seem to be complaining."
We know this because they conducted a survey, collated results and published them where?
Rod wrote: "And its not really rape. The women don't seem to be complaining."
Of course it's a well known fact that girl children are just gagging for sex after they witness their mothers, fathers, brothers, aunts and uncles murders, especially sex with their captors, the killers.
I especially love the cavalier, dismissive way you wrote it, repugnant and telling Rod...
Mary wrote: "Anyone who believes THAT is not someone I would ever care to encounter in my life. "I've encountered many.
The real irony is that they claim that you cannot be moral without God and then claim if they didn't have faith then they would happily go around raping and killing.
What dark disturbing people.
What's worse is when you think about what that means. They actually cannot see what is morally wrong about killing and raping, except when an authority figure (God) orders them not to do it or be punished. That isn't morality, it's fear.
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