The Shack
discussion
The Hitler button
The problem with everyone going to Heaven is: most people wouldn't like it. There are very specific rules in Heaven. Our entire nature will be changed.I have talked with many people who say they hate the God of the Bible and think Heaven would be a horrible place of oppression.
this is horrible but it is clear: One man's prostitute is another man's daughter, sister, wife, Mother.
I believe we get what our heart desires. If your heart doesn't desire Jesus' Kingdom (like the thief on the cross did) then Heaven is NOT the place for you.
In our minds I don't think we can even imagine what heaven or hell will be like. I think Heaven will be like our best day ever times a million. People who think they won't like heaven probably imagine it will be like a Sunday church service or something, or just that in the end there beliefs weren't right, or just a wrong belief about God.
I've never even thought about there being rules in Heaven. I guess some people seeing God as making all these rules and if you break them send you to hell but I don't. I see it as we will have the relationship with God we where meant to have and we won't want anything else. I know Satan fell but Angels are a different creation. It's never been about rules it's about relationships.
But on earth we are never going to have the answers, why there seems to be injustice on the part of God, why bad thing happen etc. I have had things in my life happen that have made me question my faith and wonder "Why did this happen God?". But I have the hope and faith that something better is coming.
As the very old saying has it *One man's Heaven is another man's Hell*
Kylan wrote: "I think you all should read this book:http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11...
Erasing Hell
Francis Chan --
It is easy to make things up, but we should endeavor to seek out what ..."
Read it - Loved it!
Erasing Hell by Francis Chan was a great book. It just stresses what the Bible claims. Some people don't like that though.I'm very curious about our nature in Heaven. This is what should scare people:
There's NO sex in Heaven.
There's NO selfish pride in Heaven.
There's No scheme's in Heaven.
There's No lies in Heaven.
There's No addictions in Heaven.
So for those who place these desires above God...Maybe Heaven isn't for you. Sad eh?
So you don't have free will in heaven?!
God loves everyone just the way they are.....he may get mad at them but he still created them for a reason. Whatever that reason may be. I'm only 11 but I belive strongly that God loves you. One of his ten commandments is treat others how you want to be treated. Not many people follow it, but just beacause they don't doesn't mean you shouldn't. To me you may be an atheiest but you are sill a person. Hitler did bad things but he's still a creation of God. I would not press that button, it just wouldn't be right....people deserve to live eternity with God and Jesus in heavean...not burning. Evn if they don't go to heavan but hell....still not right. Some people belive God is not there for them when something bad happens,but he is. I read this book and i belive that is it's message. Trust in God with all your heart. Like Martin Luther king Jr. said "Darkness can not stop darkness,only light can. hate can not stop hate,only love can."
Rod wrote: "Your goodness vs. God argument is invalid. You missed the obvious.God and Goodness are the same. Goodness flows from God.
True!
"One of his ten commandments is treat others how you want to be treated."Actually that's not one of the 10 commandments, but that doesn't really matter since Jesus did away with the old laws, right? That's why you don't put witches to death, stone homosexuals, or kill your children for disobeying them... oh wait, but Jesus said:
Matthew 15:3-4
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’
Yes indeed Will. That was an Israelite law.Of course the end of Matthew 15:1-7 is:
So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. "You hypocrites!..."
The old laws still apply. The problem is we aren't living in an Israelite society anymore. My guess is these laws will be the basis for life in Heaven. Although with a changed nature many of the laws will be obsolete. Just like some traffic signs are useless if we don't have anymore cars.
Good comment Stephanie:
"God loves everyone just the way they are..."
There's alot of people in the Bible that God didn't love. Sodom and Gomorrah for instance, flood victims, Egyptian soldiers that chased Moses, The people in the End of the Bible (Revelation).
There is a point where God's justice over-rides his love. God is protecting his family that he loves.
Lol, I love it. I mean, your idea of god is disgusting, but completely in line with the OT god. A "justice" system which is arbitrary and meaningless. A time period where god always destroyed those mercilessly who did not line up with his rules.I honestly can't see why anyone would want to worship such a disgusting, flawed being. I'm just glad that no evidence for it exists. And I'm comforted by the fact that I'm a good person who simply denies things for which there is no evidence like all of the other gods and fantasy beings out there, and if a god exists and would ignore my goodness and punish me instead for unbelief, then that is a being I would most definitely not want to worship, as this points to a narcissistic, jealous, and petty being, far from love.
LOL I wonder where you get the idea of good and bad from and what is good and bad? Not saying I agree with Rod's conclusions, but Will yours are just as strange, and this love thing was is that?
I enjoyed the book, as a Christian, I realize the fictional elements are difficult for some to grasp. However, I will not go as far to say who deserves death, hell, heaven, etc because it is not my job to judge. Regardless of anyone's personal belief system, this book got people talking--just like "Tebow-ing".
Adrian wrote: "LOL I wonder where you get the idea of good and bad from and what is good and bad?"Empathy and compassion. If I harm someone against their will, that is bad. If I help someone and I'm kind, that is good. It's really not that hard. Are you telling me you wouldn't know right from wrong without a belief in God? How ridiculous!
We get our morals because for a society to work, you must work together. If you do something that goes directly against this, you are a detriment and will likely be punished by your peers.
How is this conclusion strange? We can observe these same morals on a small scale in all animals that are social.
My dog just ate a possum. Is that good morals? :D
I'll take it by the emoticon that you are being facetious. At least I hope so!
‘Morals don’t need to come from the Bible, The Koran, or from a god, they surely can come from within ourselves?’ to which I answer, ‘yes of course they can but what sort of moral guide would that be?’We need to go one step back and ask, why we need to have morals at all, and what is it that propels us to even ask these questions? My answer encompasses the whole issue of conscience.
There is to much to put here but you can see the whole discussion on my Blog www.adrianhawkes.blogspot.com the subject title is Morals and Conscience - Do we have them? Where do they come from?
Adrian wrote: "Where do they come from? "Evolution and empathy, in a social species it pays to have a co-operative group for survival, co-operation is gained by respecting each other, expectations of reciprocity and social rules.
Not doing very well are we, Syria, Libya, Sri Lanka, Congo, Sudan, etc., etc.,
Genetically, co-operation is better for social species, so generally, genes for co-operative behaviour are chosen for. However, this does not preclude their being genes for alternative types of behaviour. For example, the gene for psychopathy has been identified (in an ironic twist, by a man who has it, and is a descendent of Lizzy Borden). In healthy, co-operative societies, those people with such genes, who express the behaviour such genes can create are excluded and ostracised. However, the psychopathy gene occurs in people who strive for power, and often people with a large amount of power also have genes such as the psychopathy gene. This gene can be expressed in several ways, from just being a business tycoon and dominating your market, or to being a dictatorial tyrant. Also, people are also wired, through their genes, to accept what is told to them by authority figures, especially while we are young. So, if you're raised in a place where morals are taught that include women should be subjugated, that your race/creed/culture is the only true one etc etc, then this creates a moralistic standpoint that anyone who is different is wrong/evil/lesser. So, the behaviours of some of the countries that can be listed as immoral by any decent standard are still forming co-operative societies based on their moral outlook, which often best serves the religious leanings (usually of the majority of the population) or party line of the people in charge.
Adrian wrote: "Not doing very well are we, Syria, Libya, Sri Lanka, Congo, Sudan, etc., etc.,"People are what poeple are, and such things are the result of the "rules" being broken and you'll notice the societies are failing... eventually they'll reach an equilibrium again. And if you'll also notice "god/religion" is notably present in all the justifications for much of those atrocities, so NOT a source of morality...
We look at Norway who I belive in their last census was 70% secularist and they have an unsurpassed health care and social services, the highest national percentage of international aid and the lowest crime statistics...
Christopher wrote: "Suppose there is an afterlife and in this afterlife Hitler has been strapped to a device that will set him on fire for all of eternity. All that is needed to start this torture is the press of a bu..."As The Shack novel tries to show, people just aren't wise enough or loving enough to make the just decision. That is God's place and He loved even Hitler enough to die on the Cross for him. There is plenty of evidence to suggest Hitler never trusted in God's love and sought His lordship. Therefore, he chose eternal separation from God - Hell.
The evidence of history. At the very least, he led Germany to slaughter millions of people, especially Jews. He is also reported to have committed suicide. These show his refusal to trust God and do HIs will.
I believe Hitler's speeches and his manifesto Mein Kampf made it very clear he thought he was doing God's will. The Nazi belt buckles stated GOTT MIT UNS which means GOD WITH US. He collaborated with the catholic church, viewed Jews as christ killers a major motivation for his antisemitism.
Theresa wrote: "That may be true and I believe you. I only meant that just because one commits suicide, does not mean one refused to trust God. Mental illness can be treated with medication, but prayer doesn't oft..."Hi Theresa I was responding to John-Paul in #183 not you :). Never-the-less I agree with you on the mental illness point.
I absolutely adored this book. For me, it was a life-changing event. I firmly believe two things (and believed them even before I read this book): 1) God's love is PERFECT. On our best day, we humans can't even get close to being able to love like that. And 2) God's forgiveness is PERFECT, therefore there is no reason for Hell or anything like it. And we humans can't quite get our brains around that, either. But that's what I love best about God - there's no catch. Even if you don't believe in Him, he believes in YOU. And if we are forgiven, what are we supposed to be punished for? And what purpose would it serve Him? Perfect love, perfect forgiveness. No catch. It's a beautiful thing.
OK Lisa, that sounds lovely. A question though, which god do you mean?
Hazel wrote: "OK Lisa, that sounds lovely. A question though, which god do you mean?"There is only one. Whether someone chooses to acknowledge Him - and HOW they choose to acknowledge Him - is their choice. Again - no catch.
I am a person of Faith and I do believe in God and hell. I don't think hell is a torture chamber though. I think part of hell is simply the separation from all that is good. I also believe that Christ died because he does not want anyone to experience this.I remember reading a depiction of death once from one of My favorite authors Robert Cormier, I think it was his novel "In the Middle of the Night." A character dies and is revived they describe how awful death was because it was simply nothingness. A feeling of being trapped with no voice or body. Only the ability to think and feel trapped. To me that was more frightening then the idea of a torture filled, haunted goblin filled hell. That is what I imagine hell is, nothingness completely by yourself.
Gretchen wrote: "I am a person of Faith and I do believe in God and hell. I don't think hell is a torture chamber though. I think part of hell is simply the separation from all that is good. I also believe that Chr..."I am a person of faith as well. But if Jesus died for us and absolved us of all that (as was God's will), then there is no purpose for Hell. If we're forgiven, as we are taught, because Jesus died for all of our sins, then the forgiveness has already taken place, and there is no reason for God to punish us - therefore, no Hell. I say again, perfect love, perfect forgiveness.
@Lisa I am actually not here to debate the act or process of salvation, just was explaining by background before answering the op question which was "If you believe in hell do you believe it will consist of maximum torture for an infinite duration, or will it be something less severe than this? "
Lisa wrote: "There is only one. Whether someone chooses to acknowledge Him - and HOW they choose to acknowledge Him - is their choice. Again - no catch."I believe she was asking which one. There are many religions that only worship one god.
Lisa quote:" God's forgiveness is PERFECT, therefore there is no reason for Hell or anything like it. And we humans can't quite get our brains around that"
It seems you don't believe in the God of the Bible Lisa. Have you read the Bible - it talks a great deal about Hell, justice, judgement day, Wrath of God. Even Jesus had enemies and discussed Hell in great detail. The entire Bible is a balance of Love and Justice. You seem to not accept God's justice.
I don't believe there is any torture in Hell. Just like Luke 16:19-31. There is a hell - but it is lonely and surrounded by flames (no torture...just a lack of God and hope.)
No Hell mentioned in the OT. I can only recall Hell being mentioned in the NT in the form of parables, which are made up metaphorical stories with a moral point, not literal stories.Of course, that doesn't stop the majority of Christians from believing that Hell is a real place.
Here's an interesting quote Will.From Biblestudy.net. (I haven't researched it myself!)
"The word "hell" occurs 31 times in the Old Testament. All 31 of those times, the word translated "hell" is the Hebrew word "sheol." While the English word "hell" has connotations as a place of punishment for the condemned, sheol does not have such connotations. Sheol simply refers to the abode of the dead in general, not particularly the place of the punishment for the wicked. In fact, sheol was divided into two compartments, one for the righteous dead and one for the wicked dead.
What makes you think Luke 16 (the Rich man and lazarus) is a parable? Unlike other stories - these ones include people with real names. It does not claim to be a parable. Don't jump to conclusions Will - don't assume this is a parable just because Jesus is talking.
Many characters in the Old Testament Bible knew there was more to existence than just this life. But salvation wasn't yet accomplished. God had very little reason to discuss Heaven and Hell in the editing of the Old Testament. People were having enough problems with basic obedience - even with miracles, prophets and God himself being present.
Yes, Sheol is literally "grave" in Hebrew, but the connotations of "where dead people go" (i.e. a separate place apart from Earth) is something added.What makes me think Luke 16 is a parable is because it's always been referred to one whenever I've encountered it in church or Bible class at school.
Here is an interesting article from a Bible site dedicated to studying the scripture. It also goes into detail about Hell in OT and NT, Sheol and Hades, respectively, and the intent behind the words. Very interesting:
http://delightinthelord.com/the-rich-...
Will quote:"What makes me think Luke 16 is a parable is because it's always been referred to one whenever I've encountered it in church or Bible class at school."
Maybe it's time you find a better church or bible class?
With this type of theology: maybe the whole Bible is a parable? Maybe God is a parable? There are churches that believe Jesus is a parable. Maybe they are correct.
I'll stick to reading the Bible in context.
THat's a fun study Will. I don't agree with it all. Quote:
" crafted by our Lord, it is a fictional rich man, it is a fictional Abraham."
So what parts of the Bible are NOT fictional according to this teacher? Should we trust any accounts of Abraham or Jonah or others as told by Jesus?
I would call this story a lie then!
On the other side: who's to say the other so-called parables are NOT true stories? How can you be sure? We shouldn't assume too much. Except that Jesus doesn't lie.
My assumption that it is a parable is equally valid as yours that it is a true story, within the context of the Bible. Within the context of reality, it's obviously a parable.Also, been a member of half a dozen churches, been to 3 separate Christian schools, and have several pastors in my immediate family. ALL say it is a parable.
Most people do assume its a parable Lee. It is fairly normal scholarship to do so.Most people always go along with the general consensus. It's called safe and wimpy. :D
Liberal Christians always do that. No surprise there. Do all these Christians you know also believe Hell is not a literal place?
Nope. Most say it is very real. All of these people/places are ultra conservative too. They uphold a literal translation of the bible, they just recognize that specific story as parable.The high school I went to: http://caschools.us/
The last church I was a member of: http://www.southeastchristian.org/?pa...
That's the thing about the Bible, though. SO SO many different interpretations. Some of them, your very salvation depends upon how you interpret. And we interpret (for those who don't know Hebrew, Greek, And Aramaic) based upon the hundreds of translations out there. The thing about translations is, the more literal (i.e. word for word) the translation, the most that is lost in meaning (this is a common phenomenon if you know about translating), while the ones considered most accurate in translating meaning are often the ones criticized the most for not retaining a literal translation. Add on top of this we don't have any originals, and the earliest manuscripts we have are copies of copies (handwritten copies), the further along you go the more differences between texts, including omissions and additions, then add on top of that the Council of Nicaea which determined the Biblical canon along with much of its doctrine (with each voting member representing different political affiliations with their own reasons/goals for including/excluding books and doctrine) and you have one giant mess on your hands.
Rod I'm curious how do you read Matthew 27:51 to 53 literal or not?
Does the Bible mention Matthew 27:51 clearly? Yes, then we have to believe it. Was it a vision or poetry by the author? No, then it must be a historical account.Do you agree with Matthew 27:54
"When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, 'surely he was the Son of God!'"
They go together nicely don't they? Do you all believe in talking Donkeys? Talking Bushes? Talking Snakes? Lazarus being raised from the dead? All the other supernatural miracles of the Bible?
It's all or nothing - don't limit God's abilities.
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Will quote:
" and you have one giant mess on your hands."
There's always been a mess. Satan's job is to make everything God does a mess. And you fell for it - just like Eve did - just like the Catholic church did - just like every false religion does.
Do you not think God is capable of properly preserving his WORD? We have thousands of years of commentaries and extra Biblical writings (the text has changed very little).
Hazel wrote: "Rod wrote: "And Hazel: I think your goodness is incredibly limited without God. "Thanks, way to insult anyone who is an atheist, or believes in something other than your god. I think simply sayin..."
I am with Hazel, because the atheists often point to an objective truth. However, all of us make a theological leap somewhere in our thinking. Are human's capable of all observation and all observational facts are true to the core of what we see? Also what about the scientists effect on the observation? Does looking at something in a certain set way make us see the outcome we desire? I would say that both Atheists and the Religious have to make leaps of Faith? So it comes down to what you believe?
I also like the point to the fact that to watch would indicate our evilness... that is true... however God has set the scales and he will be the one who weighs the heart. Who am I to go against the words of God?
As an atheist, I don't make leaps of faith, I don't work on what I believe, I work on what the evidence is showing, and then work with the best explanation for the evidence currently available, with the caveat that it can be changed if it turns out to be wrong, or not quite right, or that it needs adjusting. This doesn't involve faith in any way, just whats supported by evidence, and with the acceptance that knowledge is always provisional.
So, to answer the original question:No, I would not want to press the button. If that's what this book is about, I don't want to read it either.
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I had a sadness when Bin Laden died because I knew he died without Christ. It made made me sad that everyone was celebrating someones death. Did he deserve death, yes, but it wasn't something that I felt like celebrating.
This book was interesting, but their is no theology there. It is fiction.
But I think in the end God is love, and in his Grace and Mercy, I hope he has bigger plans for all of us than what has been told to us so far. If it were up to me everyone would go to heaven, but it's not my choice it is God's and I put my complete Trust and Faith in that.